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19:36
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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: 19:36  Reply with quote

According to Islamic doctrine, every single word in the Qur’an apparently came to Muhammad from Allah, who then recited it all ad verbatim. What then, explains this passage in the surah called Maryam?

God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him: that is a straight path.”

God has now called God his Lord? And to show I haven’t taken it out of context, the previous ayah simply mentions that God wouldn’t have a child, and 19:36 does not start with the word QUL (= say), which a fair few passages do to denote that Allah has instructed Muhammad to recite a specific phrase.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 19:36 Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
According to Islamic doctrine, every single word in the Qur’an apparently came to Muhammad from Allah, who then recited it all ad verbatim. What then, explains this passage in the surah called Maryam?

God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him: that is a straight path.”

God has now called God his Lord? And to show I haven’t taken it out of context, the previous ayah simply mentions that God wouldn’t have a child, and 19:36 does not start with the word QUL (= say), which a fair few passages do to denote that Allah has instructed Muhammad to recite a specific phrase.


This is a big dilemma in the Quran in general, as Allah sometimes speaks in a first person format, then suddenly changes to a third person!!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Golly, I wish I could debunk this like you guys, but I can't.  It's a rhetorical style to talk of self in the third person.  Let me know if you want more details.

On the other hand, the "My lord and your lord" phrase is a problem.  It's a refrain, and I just ran across it also in 5.117.  It's right up there with the requirement that one believe in Allah AND his prophet, essentially equating the two.

Yikes, Pazuzu you raise a good point, I gotta think this over!  Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think, though I can’t say for sure, that the refrain in 5:117 occurs as part of a speech that God commands Muhammad to give. But it doesn’t occur in that sort of a context in 19:36.

As for the shifting of perspective in the Qur’an, Muhammad Abdel Haleem has a lot to say about it in his book Understanding The Qur’an: Themes and Styles, an excellent and well–written work on various themes of the Qur’an. It also contains the only decent stab I’ve read at explaining the ayat allowing men to hit their wives. A pity because it doesn’t, ultimately, convince me on that particular point.

I’ll have to dig it out of storage tomorrow when I have time so that I can quote from it regarding the shifting perspectives. I can’t even recall the official ‘Arabic word he uses to denote it, but do remember he remarks that old scholars have discussed the phenomenon a lot, and expresses surprise Western scholars never have.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: 19:36 Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
According to Islamic doctrine, every single word in the Qur’an apparently came to Muhammad from Allah, who then recited it all ad verbatim. What then, explains this passage in the surah called Maryam?

God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him: that is a straight path.”

God has now called God his Lord? And to show I haven’t taken it out of context, the previous ayah simply mentions that God wouldn’t have a child, and 19:36 does not start with the word QUL (= say), which a fair few passages do to denote that Allah has instructed Muhammad to recite a specific phrase.


This is a big dilemma in the Quran in general, as Allah sometimes speaks in a first person format, then suddenly changes to a third person!!!!


Of course and it is called Isloob Ilttifat, if you really studied Balagha you should know it

Pzu is ignorant and knows nothing about the religion of Islam, I actually believe that all ex Muslims knew nothing, including you.

it seems to me that they don't understand the difference between a believer and a submitter, a Mumin and a Muslim

Salam
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You love hurling abusive ad hominems about, don’t you? I know PLENTY about Islam, having studied it extensively and tried to inculcate it into my thoughts over the years.

But I threw off my shackles and can approach it with a more open–minded viewpoint. Take the massive strides made in contemporary Islamic scholarship and revisionist History. Why does the list of luminaries (such as Crone, Cook, Rippin, Wansborough, Calder, etc.) not include even a single muslim?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
You love hurling abusive ad hominems about, don’t you? I know PLENTY about Islam, having studied it extensively and tried to inculcate it into my thoughts over the years.

But I threw off my shackles and can approach it with a more open–minded viewpoint. Take the massive strides made in contemporary Islamic scholarship and revisionist History. Why does the list of luminaries (such as Crone, Cook, Rippin, Wansborough, Calder, etc.) not include even a single muslim?


It is not shame to be an ignorant, what is shame is to insist on your ignorance
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I think, though I can’t say for sure, that the refrain in 5:117 occurs as part of a speech that God commands Muhammad to give. But it doesn’t occur in that sort of a context in 19:36.

As for the shifting of perspective in the Qur’an, Muhammad Abdel Haleem has a lot to say about it in his book Understanding The Qur’an: Themes and Styles, an excellent and well–written work on various themes of the Qur’an. It also contains the only decent stab I’ve read at explaining the ayat allowing men to hit their wives. A pity because it doesn’t, ultimately, convince me on that particular point.

I’ll have to dig it out of storage tomorrow when I have time so that I can quote from it regarding the shifting perspectives. I can’t even recall the official ‘Arabic word he uses to denote it, but do remember he remarks that old scholars have discussed the phenomenon a lot, and expresses surprise Western scholars never have.


I just came back here before resuming work.  I would very much love to see that book, so when you find it, will you give me publisher and correct full name and title, so I can buy the book?  This is JUST the kind of thing one needs.  The Christian counterpart is the classic by Thorleif Boman, Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek, available at Amazon for only $12.  Don't let the small size of the book fool you.  Every sentence in it is crammed with meaning, since the author knows how to write pithy statements.  That book wows me, and it's a classic in Christian theology.

Please let ibnishaq know of that Haleem book as well, because he's confused, thinking the Qu'ran should be interpreted literally all the time, not realizing that if a book is from God (real or fake), it MUST SHOW LITERARY GENIUS in its very words.  I really wish the Muslims who so twist Qu'ran to make its words literally scientific would instead appreciate the LITERARY USES of the text, because the claim of genius is a literary one.  False or true, that's the claim.

Bible has been around longer, and even its critics claim it as one of the greatest literary works of all time, especially since it had something like what -- 74 authors (?) over 1500 years.  So you would expect the Qu'ran to be literary, as well.

If you find any other books on the literary/rhetorical styles in the Qu'ran, please (if you're willing) list them.  This is a really important topic.  I may be against the Qu'ran's claim to be from God -- but that doesn't mean whatever it gets right/good, should be dismissed.

Whatever is good in anything should be noted.  Even if a thing is from a devil!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Amazon.com:

Product Details

Title: Understanding the Qur’an: Themes and Styles (Paperback)
Author: Muhammad Abdel Haleem
Paperback: 240 pages
Publisher: I. B. Tauris (April 21, 2001)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1860646506
ISBN-13: 978-1860646508
Product Dimensions: 9.2 x 6.2 x 0.7 inches
Shipping Weight: 13.4 ounces
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Pazuzu.  I put it on my Wishlist.  Once a year I buy from my Wishlist as a present to moi.  I can't do that right now, but will.  (I want a lot of stuff, lol.)

When logging it on my wishlist, Amazon brought up this information:  click here to see it.  What's below, for a combined cost of $176 US, looks quite interesting.

And with that, I'm over and out.  Will be back hopefully in a few days, maybe longer.


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