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Arabic Speakers help please!

 
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Sanitarium
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Arabic Speakers help please!  Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I have posted this on FFI also, but I wish to get more opinion and ideas regarding this, so I will post it here also.


I am most interested in literal translations for:

Quran 3:3, 5:46, 10:37, 12:111, 35:31 & 46:30


Thank you to Ahmed for giving me 3:3 already and to anybody who can render assistance. I would like a literal word for word from the arabic; but feel free to explain what you think the verse means so I can take into consideration and oppose to my own (layman) understanding at this time.

-Sani
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quran 3:3, 5:46, 10:37, 12:111, 35:31 & 46:30

I will post the word-for-word first and then discuss the verses later.

3:3
{ نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ بِٱلْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ ٱلتَّوْرَاةَ وَٱلإِنْجِيلَ }
Descended on you the Book by the Truth confirming for what is between his Two hands, and he descended the Torah and the Injil (Gospel).



5:46
{ وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَىٰ آثَارِهِم بِعَيسَى ٱبْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلتَوْرَاةِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ ٱلإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ }
And we tracked on their tracks with Issa the Son of Mariam confirming what what's between his Two hands from the Torah and we brought him the Injil in it good direction and light and confirming what is between his hands from the Torah and good direction and sermon to the pious.


10:37
{ وَمَا كَانَ هَـٰذَا ٱلْقُرْآنُ أَن يُفْتَرَىٰ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَـٰكِن تَصْدِيقَ ٱلَّذِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَتَفْصِيلَ ٱلْكِتَابِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ ٱلْعَالَمِينَ }

And it would not for this Koran to be 'abused' without Allah, but a confirmation for what is between his Two hands and explaining the book has no doubt in it from the Rabb of the Two Worlds.

12:111
{ لَقَدْ كَانَ فِي قَصَصِهِمْ عِبْرَةٌ لأُوْلِي ٱلأَلْبَابِ مَا كَانَ حَدِيثاً يُفْتَرَىٰ وَلَـٰكِن تَصْدِيقَ ٱلَّذِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَتَفْصِيلَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ }
There was in their stories a moral example to those first (quick) of understanding it was not a hadith (saying) that can be abused but a confirmation for what is between his Two hands and an explanation for everything and a good direction and mercy for people who believe.

35:31
{ وَٱلَّذِيۤ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ مِنَ ٱلْكِتَابِ هُوَ ٱلْحَقُّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ بِعِبَادِهِ لَخَبِيرٌ بَصِيرٌ }
And what we inspired to you from the book is the Truth confirming that is between his Two hands and Allah of his worshipers is an expert and sees them.

46:30
{ قَالُواْ يٰقَوْمَنَآ إِنَّا سَمِعْنَا كِتَاباً أُنزِلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَىٰ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ يَهْدِيۤ إِلَى ٱلْحَقِّ وَإِلَىٰ طَرِيقٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ }
They said out people we heard a book was descended after Moses confirming what is between his hands giving good direction to the truth and to the straight path.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Sani

Without having to go through the entire translation, I will just focus on what you want.

As Baal said, the translations for all these verses have the common "between his two hands".

This is a figure of speech used by the Arabs to indicate and confirm possession. For example " This book between my two hands is not for sale". It's similar to the English "I saw him with my own eyes". It basically confirms the action and emphasis the meaning.

Now, this for sure refers to Allah and not to Muhammad. The two hands are indeed Allah's. This was brought up in the past  in the sense that "How can God have hands like us"? and of course the easy way out is "figure of speech"!

The Quran has many verses where the hand of Allah has been mentioned and so are the OT and the NT.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Hello Sani

Without having to go through the entire translation, I will just focus on what you want.

As Baal said, the translations for all these verses have the common "between his two hands".

This is a figure of speech used by the Arabs to indicate and confirm possession. For example " This book between my two hands is not for sale". It's similar to the English "I saw him with my own eyes". It basically confirms the action and emphasis the meaning.

Now, this for sure refers to Allah and not to Muhammad. The two hands are indeed Allah's. This was brought up in the past  in the sense that "How can God have hands like us"? and of course the easy way out is "figure of speech"!

The Quran has many verses where the hand of Allah has been mentioned and so are the OT and the NT.

Let me know if you have any other questions.


Thank you All_Brains: this was another thing I was wondering. Perhaps, I thought, it was a figure of speech that I am unaware of. Okay so now my question is, why do many English translations say "revealed before" instead of translating it correctly? Is it acceptable to change it like that?


Any other arabic speakers are welcome to put their 2c worth in here, come on everyone! All opinions and ideas are most welcome!

Thank you Baal and All_Brains for your efforts so far.


-Sani
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sanitarium wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Hello Sani

Without having to go through the entire translation, I will just focus on what you want.

As Baal said, the translations for all these verses have the common "between his two hands".

This is a figure of speech used by the Arabs to indicate and confirm possession. For example " This book between my two hands is not for sale". It's similar to the English "I saw him with my own eyes". It basically confirms the action and emphasis the meaning.

Now, this for sure refers to Allah and not to Muhammad. The two hands are indeed Allah's. This was brought up in the past  in the sense that "How can God have hands like us"? and of course the easy way out is "figure of speech"!

The Quran has many verses where the hand of Allah has been mentioned and so are the OT and the NT.

Let me know if you have any other questions.


Thank you All_Brains: this was another thing I was wondering. Perhaps, I thought, it was a figure of speech that I am unaware of. Okay so now my question is, why do many English translations say "revealed before" instead of translating it correctly? Is it acceptable to change it like that?


Any other arabic speakers are welcome to put their 2c worth in here, come on everyone! All opinions and ideas are most welcome!

Thank you Baal and All_Brains for your efforts so far.


-Sani


Hi Sani

The reason why the vast majority of the translators translate the "figure of speech" and "pure Arabic sayings" in words that the speakers of the "translated to" language can understand, it's simply because if it was translated word for word it would make no sense whatsoever!

The translators are also only interested in conveying the general meaning and this can be a little problem in theological analysis where every single word is deeply looked at and analysed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a topical aside, let me point out that Umberto Eco has written a brilliant book about the theories and practicalities, as well as the perils, of translation in a lovely book called Mouse or Rat? Translation as Negotiation. It contains lots of examples (though mostly Italian, since Eco himself comes from Italy and writes primarily in Italian), something you donít usually find in works on translation, bizarrely enough!


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