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Is Islam a religion of peace?
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David
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Is Islam a religion of peace?  Reply with quote

While there are many Muslims who are peaceful, is the religion itself a religion of peace?

How do Muslims who are peaceful deal with the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran?

Are the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran meant for a particular point in time, directed to a particular people in time, and aimed at particular circumstances in time or are these "unpeaceful" verses meant for all time under any circumstances?

Who decides in Islam when a Muslims should fight back and under what circumstances?

Who speaks for the religion of Islam?

When should the Muslim kill the infidel?
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BMZ
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

David wrote:
While there are many Muslims who are peaceful, is the religion itself a religion of peace?


There are many religions in the world and not a single is called a Religion of Peace.
Religion is only for God. If you go through the history of all religions, none was established through peace. Just recently, the Buddhists in Tibet, the most peaceful, rioted and burnt down a mosque and attacked the Muslims' quarter. "Religion of Peace" is a fallacy.


David wrote:
How do Muslims who are peaceful deal with the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran?


Did not expect that silly question from you, David. Where did you get that idea from?

David wrote:
Are the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran meant for a particular point in time, directed to a particular people in time, and aimed at particular circumstances in time or are these "unpeaceful" verses meant for all time under any circumstances?


Could you re-phrase your question, please?

David wrote:
Who decides in Islam when a Muslims should fight back and under what circumstances?


The government and/or the Muslims, if the government has collapsed or has been brutally and viciously forced to collapse, as in the case of Iraq.

David wrote:
Who speaks for the religion of Islam?


The leaders and the Muslims of an Islamic country.

David wrote:
When should the Muslim kill the infidel?


Only when the infidel attacks and tries to kill Muslims. Example: Iraq and Afghanistan.

Cheers
BMZ

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ronyvo



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
While there are many Muslims who are peaceful, is the religion itself a religion of peace?


There are many religions in the world and not a single is called a Religion of Peace.
Religion is only for God. If you go through the history of all religions, none was established through peace. Just recently, the Buddhists in Tibet, the most peaceful, rioted and burnt down a mosque and attacked the Muslims' quarter. "Religion of Peace" is a fallacy.


David wrote:
How do Muslims who are peaceful deal with the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran?


Did not expect that silly question from you, David. Where did you get that idea from?

David wrote:
Are the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran meant for a particular point in time, directed to a particular people in time, and aimed at particular circumstances in time or are these "unpeaceful" verses meant for all time under any circumstances?


Could you re-phrase your question, please?

David wrote:
Who decides in Islam when a Muslims should fight back and under what circumstances?


The government and/or the Muslims, if the government has collapsed or has been brutally and viciously forced to collapse, as in the case of Iraq.

David wrote:
Who speaks for the religion of Islam?


The leaders and the Muslims of an Islamic country.

David wrote:
When should the Muslim kill the infidel?


Only when the infidel attacks and tries to kill Muslims. Example: Iraq and Afghanistan.

Cheers
BMZ

Wrong again, BMZ.
What do you call this?:Jesus said, “you shall love your Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it ‘You shall love your neighbor as your self. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets,” Mt22:37-40
“A new commandment I give you, that you love one another; as I loved you , that you also love one another, by this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for on another, John 13:34-35
“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come into him and make Our home with him.” John 14:23
“These things I command you, that you love one another.” John 15-17
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, you shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of judgment, but I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment “. Mt. 5:21-22
“Furthermore, it has been said, whoever divorces his wife let him give a certificate of divorce. But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery.” Mt 5:31-32
“You have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbor and hate you enemy; but I say to you ‘love you enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those spitefully use you and persecute you.” Mt 5:43-44

“Love never fails.” 1 Cor 13:8
“For I have come not to call the righteous, but the sinners.” Mt. 9:13
“with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing one another in love.” Eph 4:2
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her.” Eph 5:25

“For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.” 1 Tm 6:10
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal.” Mt 6:8

“Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you , not as the world gives I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” John 14:27

Also, consider this statement:
The holy book of a religion is the ONLY base to judge a religion and not those who break its commandments.

David asks ligtimate questions. Whe don't you answere them.
Or at least, be couragous and say I don't know.
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ronyvo



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
While there are many Muslims who are peaceful, is the religion itself a religion of peace?



David wrote:
How do Muslims who are peaceful deal with the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran?


Did not expect that silly question from you, David. Where did you get that idea from?

This is not a silly qestion at all. Or do you want me to quote you the unpeaceful hateful surahs from the Koran?

David wrote:
Are the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran meant for a particular point in time, directed to a particular people in time, and aimed at particular circumstances in time or are these "unpeaceful" verses meant for all time under any circumstances?


Could you re-phrase your question, please?

The question is very very clear. What don't you understand in it??



David wrote:
Who decides in Islam when a Muslims should fight back and under what circumstances?


The government and/or the Muslims, if the government has collapsed or has been brutally and viciously forced to collapse, as in the case of Iraq.


How about the slaughtering of the Christians and Jews who live in their OWN countries for the last 1400 years??

David wrote:
Who speaks for the religion of Islam?


The leaders and the Muslims of an Islamic country.

This is a contradiction to the previous answer. Make up your mind.
I ask who is a leader in Islam?
A shiek, an imam or any one who shows power as Osama bin Laden?

David wrote:
When should the Muslim kill the infidel?


Only when the infidel attacks and tries to kill Muslims. Example: Iraq and Afghanistan.

This is a very weak and untrue answer as it can get.
You should know that you are speaking to informed folks here.
Go to Islamic countries in the ME and see how the peaceful Christians are savagely attacked, their homes and businesses and churches are burned, their young girls are kidnapped, raped and converted to Islam against their will.

Either you are utterly uninformed or being terribly dishonest.
Cheers
BMZ
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David
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:38 am    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
While there are many Muslims who are peaceful, is the religion itself a religion of peace?


There are many religions in the world and not a single is called a Religion of Peace.  


I didn't ask if Islam is called a "Religion of Peace."

I asked if the religion of Islam itself is a religion of peace.

I can only guess from your response, the answer is no.  Islam is not a religion of peace.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:48 am    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

David wrote:
How do Muslims who are peaceful deal with the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran?


BMZ wrote:


Did not expect that silly question from you, David. Where did you get that idea from?  


From the Quran.  There are many verses that do not appear to be "peaceful."

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
Are the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran meant for a particular point in time, directed to a particular people in time, and aimed at particular circumstances in time or are these "unpeaceful" verses meant for all time under any circumstances?


Could you re-phrase your question, please?  


My question is clear.

Are the "unpeaceful" verses in the Quran meant for a particular point in time, under the circumstances of that time, or are they meant for all time.  I don't see a time limit in these verses.  Is there one?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:


Who decides in Islam when a Muslims should fight back and under what circumstances?


The government and/or the Muslims, if the government has collapsed or has been brutally and viciously forced to collapse, as in the case of Iraq.


I asked who decides in ISLAM, meaning who speaks for the Quran and Islamic jurisprudence?

Iraq has a government.  They want peace.  It is the Sunnis and the Shias  who are fighting each other for control of the country and they are fighting the government of Iraq.  Iran has a hand in this too by supplying weapons.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

David wrote:

When should the Muslim kill the infidel?


BMZ wrote:


Only when the infidel attacks and tries to kill Muslims. Example: Iraq and Afghanistan.


Bin Laden was based in Afghanistan when he attacked the United States.  The government of Afghanistan at that time would not give him up.

The United States had a right to defend itself.

Afghanistan has a government.  Followers of bin Laden are fighting that government.

Do you think NATO should leave so bin Laden can take over the country again?  Would you approve of that?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

ronyvo wrote:
  Wrong again, BMZ.
What do you call this?:Jesus said, “you shall love your Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it ‘You shall love your neighbor as your self. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets,” Mt22:37-40
“A new commandment I give you, that you love one another; as I loved you , that you also love one another, by this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for on another, John 13:34-35
“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come into him and make Our home with him.” John 14:23
“These things I command you, that you love one another.” John 15-17
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, you shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of judgment, but I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment “. Mt. 5:21-22


Let me tell you what is all wrong about this Jesus stuff. Jesus did not bring anything new or any new commandments. Moses did. Jesus was just a teacher or call him  a master. All Jesus did was to explain what the Commandments truly meant.

The problem with Chrsitianity is that it claims patent on simple things of life, which everyone knew before and without Jesus and it thinks as if the Jews did not love their neighbours at all and knew nothing at all about loving the neighbour.

This is really ridiculous. The Chinese, the eskimos, the Polynesians, Aboriginees and the Hindus knew about loving their neighbours well before the arrival of even Abraham. There was nothing to be commanded by Jesus as Israel did not need any commandments from him. Commandments had already been delivered by the LORD Almighty Allah to them via Moses.

Please explain "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets,” in your own words and enlighten me how do all the Law and the Prophets hang on the two only?
Laughing


ronyvo wrote:
“Furthermore, it has been said, whoever divorces his wife let him give a certificate of divorce. But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery.” Mt 5:31-32


What do you understand from above? Not to divorce a wife, is it? Explain in your own words and I will explain the above in mine.

Are you aware that many Catholic couples just part away and live with their new loves, without the blessings of the church and a new holy matrimony, just because the Church does not allow them divorce? Jesus himself had declared that not an iota of the laws would be changed. There were not just ten laws.  



ronyvo wrote:
“You have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbor and hate you enemy; but I say to you ‘love you enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those spitefully use you and persecute you.” Mt 5:43-44


Jesus himself was rude and arrogant. He was ruthless and hated the Jewish high priest, Pharisees and the Sadducees. He hated them to the extent that he called them snakes and brood of vipers and sent curses and woes upon woes. Also he cursed the Temple of God. Would a man of love and one who preached love, do that kind of thing?  

“Love never fails.” 1 Cor 13:8
“For I have come not to call the righteous, but the sinners.” Mt. 9:13
“with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing one another in love.” Eph 4:2
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her.” Eph 5:25

“For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.” 1 Tm 6:10
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal.” Mt 6:8

“Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you , not as the world gives I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” John 14:27[/quote]

The above was nothing wonderful and nothing new, as people even five thousand years before him had said the same. Perhaps you learnt that only from the New T.  Laughing

ronyvo wrote:
Also, consider this statement:
The holy book of a religion is the ONLY base to judge a religion and not those who break its commandments.


If that is your reasoning, please tear apart the Old Testament from the Christian Bible and throw it away. You should not have it all attached to the forefront of the New T. lol!

ronyvo wrote:
David asks ligtimate questions. Whe don't you answere them.
Or at least, be couragous and say I don't know.


Silly and mischieviously designed questions do not fall under the category of intelligent questions.

BMZ

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Ali Sina:"Go to a public place, call friends with video and preferably the media as well. Then in front of everyone, remove your veil and set it on fire. Then announce in loud voice, "I am free" (Edited)
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BMZ
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:22 am    Post subject: Re: Is Islam a religion of peace? Reply with quote

David wrote:
David wrote:

When should the Muslim kill the infidel?


BMZ wrote:


Only when the infidel attacks and tries to kill Muslims. Example: Iraq and Afghanistan.


Bin Laden was based in Afghanistan when he attacked the United States.  The government of Afghanistan at that time would not give him up.

The United States had a right to defend itself.

Afghanistan has a government.  Followers of bin Laden are fighting that government.

Do you think NATO should leave so bin Laden can take over the country again?  Would you approve of that?


That was the most irresponsible and an idiotic step taken by the American Government. First you must realise that it was Clinton who ordered the attack on Osama by raining cruise missiles and the US military goofed it up by not finishing him up and finishing the job. It was Osama and his team that carried out 911 as their own vendetta. I hate Osama and condemn Osama for that act.

Instead of going into Afghanistan on cowboy mentality, the US Admin should not have attacked and invaded Afghanistan. The US government knew Taleban well and could have diplomatically engaged with them and the Talebans would have finished him up. But you guys went in raining bombs, missiles and even cluster bombs, etc and took over, not realising that Taleban had screwed up the Russians for ten years and made them leave. Raining bombs is easy but it is the manpower that  matters most on the ground. You have a few thousand on the ground and they cannot match the Afghans in man to man combat because you are simply out-numbered.

That is what your best and the brightest do not know and do not understand. The WWII ended in five years. The US has been already in Afghanistan for seven and a half years. Has this thought ever hit you or the fellow Americans? Don't be surprised to hear of new 'Paris-like Conferences' with the Talebans. Same goes for Iraq. Five long years in and the result? A complete mess and a complete flop, sinking further and further into the quagmire.

There are not 15-20 million Arabs in Afghanistan. lol! It is the millions of Talebans who are Afghans.
Yes, Nato, the British and the Americans will leave Afghanistan within the next 5-10 years. Just look at the US, begging Nato countries for troops. The morale of all Western troops is down and falling. Karzai and his cahoots are not Afghanistan.

It is not a question whether Nato should leave.  Nato and the Americans will have to leave one day but when they leave it will be the Taleban again who will take control of Afghanistan, not the bogeyman Osama and his Arabs.

Cheers
BMZ



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Ali Sina:"Go to a public place, call friends with video and preferably the media as well. Then in front of everyone, remove your veil and set it on fire. Then announce in loud voice, "I am free" (Edited)
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