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Islam and democracy
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Islam and democracy
islam is directly against democracy
72%
 72%  [ 8 ]
islam is indifferent towards democracy
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
islam is for democracy
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 11

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Tvebak
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:30 pm    Post subject: Islam and democracy  Reply with quote

One of the great issues of the contemporary world in relation to islam is the question of "democracy". As I see it there's different arguments in this matter.

- some argues that islam is directly against democracy

- others argue that islam is indifferent towards democracy

- others argue that islam is for democracy

What are yours view on this matter, considering the historical instution which we call islam, fx the different sects, considering the different texts which is a part of islam, ie. quran, hadith etc.?

Arguments with textual references are appreciated.

Cheers

PS. I will later include some works on the idea of democracy in relation with islam.

EDIT: I've added a poll. If you miss any poll-answer feel free to tell. Please explain your veiws if you like.
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Last edited by Tvebak on Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:51 am; edited 3 times in total
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Baal
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only claim I ever seen muslims do about democracy is that Abu Bakr and Khattab and Usman were picked through a (Shura - Advicing) council.

Which is a large farce. Because as soon as Abu bakr became Khalif, he went to attack all the people who refused to hand him over the jizya. He labelled them as murtads and attacked them killing 70,000 people.

And when Usman, at 80yrs old was asked to leave his seat, he complained that the people chose to put him there how can they change their mind after so many years. That was after he siphoned tons of money to his family the ammawid and guaranteeing they stayed in power for 10 khalifas until the Abbasid came in and killed their cousins the ammawids.

The Abbasids even did something really strange that no other king EVER made. They ordered that all Ten bodies of all their Khalifa cousins, be exhumed, cut up, and hung on the city gates where they were buried.

These were the first muslims.

After Ali, there was long runs of families holding the khalifa positions, at most the shura councils had to pick which son or which brother got to succeed. That has NOTHING To do with democracy. And families were only deposed though violent coups by other families, again nothing to do with Democracy. So historically Islam has nothing to show for democracy.

Democracy is a talked about as a joke in islamic countries. It is considered a Western Construct that is destined to fail.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
The only claim I ever seen muslims do about democracy is that Abu Bakr and Khattab and Usman were picked through a (Shura - Advicing) council.

Which is a large farce. Because as soon as Abu bakr became Khalif, he went to attack all the people who refused to hand him over the jizya. He labelled them as murtads and attacked them killing 70,000 people.

And when Usman, at 80yrs old was asked to leave his seat, he complained that the people chose to put him there how can they change their mind after so many years. That was after he siphoned tons of money to his family the ammawid and guaranteeing they stayed in power for 10 khalifas until the Abbasid came in and killed their cousins the ammawids.

The Abbasids even did something really strange that no other king EVER made. They ordered that all Ten bodies of all their Khalifa cousins, be exhumed, cut up, and hung on the city gates where they were buried.

These were the first muslims.

After Ali, there was long runs of families holding the khalifa positions, at most the shura councils had to pick which son or which brother got to succeed. That has NOTHING To do with democracy. And families were only deposed though violent coups by other families, again nothing to do with Democracy. So historically Islam has nothing to show for democracy.

Democracy is a talked about as a joke in islamic countries. It is considered a Western Construct that is destined to fail.


Hello Baal

The first reference you have can hardly be called "democracy" as the "rule by the demos".

But your view on it, I take, is that "islam is against democracy"?

Quote:
Democracy is a talked about as a joke in islamic countries. It is considered a Western Construct that is destined to fail


I'm aware that many muslims have this attitude towards democracy, but I'm also aware that many muslims have another opinion about democracy. These kinds of muslims can be divided in different groups as I see it:

- those which thinks that islam promotes democracy

- those which thinks that islam is indifferent towards democracy

- those which are more or less "cultural" muslims (incl both believers and "don't knows")

At the last election here in Denmark there there was a little story on the matter. A local ("cultural" believing) muslim politician handed out flyers in the street promoting her own election for a soft socialist party. She said that many greeted her friendly and recieved the posters, but she also recieved several bigotry comments because of her cultural background and on the other side comments from muslims who denied her flyers with the comment "I'm muslim and therefore I  don't vote".

I've also often meet the comment that "muslims cannot accept man-made laws" and therefore cannot accept democracy.

But what are the reasons for the different arguments. Is it tradition, or is it strict law from either the one or the other religious text?

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not going to go into fine details, but will showcase the big picture.

1. We have a God (Allah) that leads people astray or to believe whenever he wants.
2. We have a general Islamic doctrine that says "whenever Allah puts a full stop, there is no place for a question mark".
3. We have an Islamic punishment of Muslim apostates that does not have room for negotiation. Death!
4. There is no room for human democracy and freedom of choice when there is "supposedly" a divine law that supersedes all.
5. How can freedom of choice exists in the universe of an omniscient God???

Most religions directly contradict the nature of Democracy and Islam tops them all.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
I am not going to go into fine details, but will showcase the big picture.

1. We have a God (Allah) that leads people astray or to believe whenever he wants.
2. We have a general Islamic doctrine that says "whenever Allah puts a full stop, there is no place for a question mark".
3. We have an Islamic punishment of Muslim apostates that does not have room for negotiation. Death!
4. There is no room for human democracy and freedom of choice when there is "supposedly" a divine law that supersedes all.
5. How can freedom of choice exists in the universe of an omniscient God???

Most religions directly contradict the nature of Democracy and Islam tops them all.


Hi A_B

Thanks for the comment.
So you argue that the notion of a "divine law" makes it irrelevant to even talk about democracy? and that this notion is sufficiently grounded in the religious texts?

I agree with your view on the relationship between religions and democracy, but I would like to stay on islam in this thread.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
I am not going to go into fine details, but will showcase the big picture.

1. We have a God (Allah) that leads people astray or to believe whenever he wants.
2. We have a general Islamic doctrine that says "whenever Allah puts a full stop, there is no place for a question mark".
3. We have an Islamic punishment of Muslim apostates that does not have room for negotiation. Death!
4. There is no room for human democracy and freedom of choice when there is "supposedly" a divine law that supersedes all.
5. How can freedom of choice exists in the universe of an omniscient God???

Most religions directly contradict the nature of Democracy and Islam tops them all.


Hi A_B

Thanks for the comment.
So you argue that the notion of a "divine law" makes it irrelevant to even talk about democracy? and that this notion is sufficiently grounded in the religious texts?

I agree with your view on the relationship between religions and democracy, but I would like to stay on islam in this thread.

Cheers


Of course the focus is on Islam. I am merely avoiding the future excuses and apologies by Muslims saying that other religions have that dilemma too.

The reason why Islam tops the list of religions is that the Quran is claimed to be the unaltered literal words of God!

Who can change, alter, or improve on that? You will end up "literally" losing your head!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.

egypt lebanon
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.

egypt lebanon


Ibnishaq

You forgot I am from Egypt. There is no democracy their mate! It's fake.

Mr. Mubarak has been there since 1981!!! almost 27 years with one president.

And guess who's the likely heir??? His son.


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