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Point of the Cross, Part I

 
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Point of the Cross, Part I  Reply with quote

"What's the point of the Cross?" was a question Islamis_Allah_Tashit raised in the FFI forum under "Quran and Hadith" subtopic titled, "Proof Koran is from Iblis". That question was outside the thread, so I'm posting it here. Seems a good topic to put here.

My quick answer (not meant to convince, no one should quickly believe anything), is this: Infinity must be all-spectrum, kinda like numbers. I maintain that the secular always represents the spiritual. So if in secular world you have math with logically infinite negatives and positives but in real numbers only positives, that tells you something about the unseen spiritual truth.

So think: if God is Infinite, Infinity would be decreed as the spectrum of Truth, presuming also that Infinite God is Truth (one of God's Attributes, never mind what 'faith name' you call it). So -- if negative truths, then there would be such a thing as stuff which can truly happen and exist which is negative to God, hence "bad". So how does that "bad" get sewn up to a good purpose, so that its bad existence nevertheless has a good result?

The Cross is the mechanism for that. Isaiah 53 is quite graphic about it in the Hebrew, likening the sins imputed and judged on Christ as javelins (Isa53:5), a spiritual and judicial imputation, not physical, but happening in His Soul on the Cross (Isaiah 52:13-14, 53:10-11). The chapter really begins in Hebrew at Isa52:13. Translations are tame, but you get the sense in translation, too.

Now, for centuries Christendom has been confused about what happened on the Cross. But here in this forum, all that seems necessary to pose for topical purposes is the IDEA that Bible maintains that's how all the bad, is made good on. Then in heaven, everything bad that happened to you (or anyone else) has this reverse jurisprudence, so your blessing far outweighs the evil you suffered. Because, God suffered it first. Because, God added Humanity to Himself and in that Humanity, paid for the opportunity cost of it all. Because, God sees it first and forever, long after it's done and past. Because, God is Omniscient, and that Omniscience never dies.

That's the idea of the "point of the Cross". Let the debate begin!
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Last edited by brainout on Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: "What's the point of the Cross?" Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
"What's the point of the Cross?" was a question Islamis_Allah_Tashit raised in the FFI forum under "Quran and Hadith" subtopic titled, "Proof Koran is from Iblis". That question was outside the thread, so I'm posting it here. Seems a good topic to put here.

My quick answer (not meant to convince, no one should quickly believe anything), is this: Infinity must be all-spectrum, kinda like numbers. I maintain that the secular always represents the spiritual. So if in secular world you have math with logically infinite negatives and positives but in real numbers only positives, that tells you something about the unseen spiritual truth.

So think: if God is Infinite, Infinity would be decreed as the spectrum of Truth, presuming also that Infinite God is Truth (one of God's Attributes, never mind what 'faith name' you call it). So -- if negative truths, then there would be such a thing as stuff which can truly happen and exist which is negative to God, hence "bad". So how does that "bad" get sewn up to a good purpose, so that its bad existence nevertheless has a good result?

The Cross is the mechanism for that. Isaiah 53 is quite graphic about it in the Hebrew, likening the sins imputed and judged on Christ as javelins (Isa53:5), a spiritual and judicial imputation, not physical, but happening in His Soul on the Cross (Isaiah 52:13-14, 53:10-11). The chapter really begins in Hebrew at Isa52:13. Translations are tame, but you get the sense in translation, too.

Now, for centuries Christendom has been confused about what happened on the Cross. But here in this forum, all that seems necessary to pose for topical purposes is the IDEA that Bible maintains that's how all the bad, is made good on. Then in heaven, everything bad that happened to you (or anyone else) has this reverse jurisprudence, so your blessing far outweighs the evil you suffered. Because, God suffered it first. Because, God added Humanity to Himself and in that Humanity, paid for the opportunity cost of it all. Because, God sees it first and forever, long after it's done and past. Because, God is Omniscient, and that Omniscience never dies.

That's the idea of the "point of the Cross". Let the debate begin!


On the other hand the cross could be just the method of execution used to terminate the life of thousand of people around that time.

I agree with you though on the full cycle of events to achieve the greater good or justice. I don't call them good, bad and justice though.

I call them positive incidents, natural selection and life self preservation or sustainment, in the same order as the religious sense.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Understood. The entire mechanism of payment is spiritual, so it looks like nothing happened but a torturous physical death. Isaiah describes it as all these horrible thoughts coming into Christ's Soul while nearly dead due to the suffering prior to the Cross itself, and He's got to parry each thought with Divine Thinking. That the Holy Spirit sustained Him during all this, the idea being that Divine Thinking in a human being (not from His Own Godness) was so beautiful, it justified all the horror occurring in the first place.

Frankly, this boils down to God just using His Omnipotence in this way because He likes to match all truth together, bad truth to Good Thinking. It's a Three-Way God-to-God Gifting, not an obligation. As a result of which, blessing to all humans can occur forever, hence the moniker "believe in Christ and you will be forever saved" (Greek of Acts 16:31, first clause), is how one gets saved.

But it still means that God chooses to do things the hard way. That's the hardest thing to swallow, in my opinion. But to me, the alternative is to shave freedom, and once you start doing that, when do you stop? So it's a Hobson's choice.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Understood. The entire mechanism of payment is spiritual, so it looks like nothing happened but a torturous physical death. Isaiah describes it as all these horrible thoughts coming into Christ's Soul while nearly dead due to the suffering prior to the Cross itself, and He's got to parry each thought with Divine Thinking. That the Holy Spirit sustained Him during all this, the idea being that Divine Thinking in a human being (not from His Own Godness) was so beautiful, it justified all the horror occurring in the first place.

Frankly, this boils down to God just using His Omnipotence in this way because He likes to match all truth together, bad truth to Good Thinking. It's a Three-Way God-to-God Gifting, not an obligation. As a result of which, blessing to all humans can occur forever, hence the moniker "believe in Christ and you will be forever saved" (Greek of Acts 16:31, first clause), is how one gets saved.

But it still means that God chooses to do things the hard way. That's the hardest thing to swallow, in my opinion. But to me, the alternative is to shave freedom, and once you start doing that, when do you stop? So it's a Hobson's choice.


For someone to be paid, they have to be contracted or asked by someone to provide some sort of service or product.

But for God to create humans out of nothing, orchestrates the entire Adam, Eve and Satan's plot and the expects compensation, then offers the compensation through his only son, seems all fake and deliberate.

I feel humans have been framed to complete a self fulfilled prophecy and a pre-written script!

Or, man has just come up with the story just like the zillion other stories they came up with and end up believing!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To All Brains: Your "For someone to be paid, they have to be contracted.." quote. Yeah, that's true, and it is in the Hebrew of Isaiah 52:13-54:1, most notably in 53:10-11. Since you can read the Hebrew, I'll not translate it. Focus especially on 53:10-11, which is the heart of the contract. Ephesians 1 elaborates on it, Philippians 2:5-10 refers to it, and there are many point-backs to that clause throughout the NT, usually quoting from the Greek of those verses.

Your "fake and deliberate" and "humans have been framed" and " man has just come up with a story" quotes. Yeah, I see how it looks that way. That's why I referred you to the math of Infinity and Freedom. The issue of "compensation" is juridical, not God needing it. The juridprudence would be to have a mechanism to allow all things to be free, including all bad, which necessitates a counterbalance. Else freedom must be shaved.

Cross is a Three-Way Gifting. 1st God judges, 2nd adds Humanity to Himself and in that Humanity pays, and the Third empowers that Humanity so that the 2nd can FOREGO using His Own Deity, in essence making a gift from the foregoing. Love being the motive between them. Them. So it's not "compensation" in human terms, but is communicated in human terms, since we are human.

Again, just answering the issue, not trying to convince. This is heavy stuff. It does not make immediate sense, just as complex math doesn't make immediate sense.


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