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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject: Some comments from your blog  Reply with quote

Dear All_Brains.,

Hi,

Quick comment please, forgive the formatting. I saw your blog, I thought it was pretentious to be honest with you, you ask many valid questions, but many false ones, tainted with a sarcasm that Im not sure is healthy.

Furthermore, I have been happy to see this style forum, blog as this can easily be answerable by layman Muslims, unlike orientalists, who do pose a threat ( though refutable) to Islaam.

I think these forums really make Islaam stronger. FFI did an excellent job on that.

Some comments if you don’t mind from your blog. Please forgive me if I don’t correspond on a regular basis.

I often find such things a bit tiresome, bearing in mind the quality of the opponents, the sheer lack of research in their points, and the constant name calling and immaturity. As I came across on one forum, which quite frankly, was a joke. Though I felt sorry for some of them, I still couldn’t see how their problems were related to Islaam, seems every wrong doing that happened to them, they couldn’t find reasoble explanations, and hence Islaam was the blame factor.

Anwyays, to your post.


Quote:
‘A lonely God roaming the universe with extreme powers and abilities and no one around to appreciate the might of this lonely force! This must have been tough!’


I think you misunderstand the Islamic belief. For the Muslims always said that God was creating from eternity, as you know, the Muslims, the head pioneer of them being the hanabilah, that before he created the universe he was creating other things to.

So Allah didn’t obtain the title creator only when he created, but rather, he has always been the creator. Who knows what he has created in the past. Maybe other life forms, but to say that he was ‘lonely’ is as much as a human conception as reproduction and just as irrelevant to God or his existence.

Quote:
'This notion creates a predicament that God is just as needy as us, therefore his divinity is nothing but a fairy tale. He is just one of us!’


No, that is a Mistake. Not every action that emanates from this being can be reasoned or fathomed, after all, look at the realm of quantum physics, who can fathom that?!

Creating is not a sign of ‘neediness’ anymore then a king having a slave is a sign of an inability on his behalf.

Quote:
‘God creates us out of nothingness to experience life and be put to the test. The vast majority according to the Abrahamic faiths will end up in a eternal torture of hellfire!!’


These questions amongst others don’t put a spanner in the works for those who believe in a God. Because unlike you, emotion is not a condition for his acceptance to be existed, they deem a God because of the Design Inference that can be made.

Also, we have to understand wht you mean by nothingness. Because I’m not sure you understand what this term means, maybe you are thinking in terms of what some say ‘something from nothing’ as some say with regards to how this universe came into being. We are rather talking about God who can create without the need of ‘anything’. There is a subtle difference here that I think you should focus upon .

Furthermore, lets say that God is evil, for the sake of argument. ( even though he isn’t). What will you do against him? What would you be able to do to fight or resist him?………..let me categorically say: NOTHING ( no Alll_Brains, not even a blog!)

The question is, if we accept the existence of a God, can he communicate? Bearing in mind he created the universe from the 1st place. I think that’s the question.


Quote:
‘The miracle of Quran has dissolved’


Hmmm…….but this is something that was a pre condition for you to accept something to be divine to be miarclous to begin with, when Abu Bakr RA, came to Islaam, one may question what miracle he needed??

Miracles, are not a pre requisite of accepting Islam, sometimes-just logic alone is enough. I.e. the fact that an infinite solution is required to explain the universe, this infinite solution is a simple explanation, ( as concurred by occams razor) , and this infinite explanation is characterised with consciousness/life and intelligence( and here we differ with atheists as to what this infinite ‘thing’ is), then the infinite designer/consciousness should communicate with the creation, lay down rules, if he wants he can punish, if he wants he can reward. But that message must agree with what humans beings by nature regard to be God. So this infinite entity can have defects, etc and this is why we reject the Godhood of Jesus AS or idols.

Can I take this opportunity to ask you please,

Do you believe in God? I wasn’t too sure from reading your blog. Remember, to answer my points please. The crux of your discussion, I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that a God cannot communicate or produce a heaven and a hell.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Some comments from your blog Reply with quote

Ameen wrote:
Dear All_Brains.,

Hi,


Hi Ameen and welcome to the forum.

Quote:

Quick comment please, forgive the formatting. I saw your blog, I thought it was pretentious to be honest with you, you ask many valid questions, but many false ones, tainted with a sarcasm that Im not sure is healthy.


You accused the blog of being pretentious and some of the questions being false without giving examples! This is a logical fallacy.

Quote:
Furthermore, I have been happy to see this style forum, blog as this can easily be answerable by layman Muslims, unlike orientalists, who do pose a threat ( though refutable) to Islaam.


I am glad you're happy, although such forums are giving Islam real hard time and not easily refutable.

Quote:

I think these forums really make Islaam stronger. FFI did an excellent job on that.


I disagree. I alone have helped 23 people in the past 3 years to step out of the dark.
Quote:

Some comments if you don’t mind from your blog. Please forgive me if I don’t correspond on a regular basis.


You're forgiven.

Quote:
I often find such things a bit tiresome, bearing in mind the quality of the opponents, the sheer lack of research in their points, and the constant name calling and immaturity. As I came across on one forum, which quite frankly, was a joke. Though I felt sorry for some of them, I still couldn’t see how their problems were related to Islaam, seems every wrong doing that happened to them, they couldn’t find reasoble explanations, and hence Islaam was the blame factor.


I know for a fact that my blog and forum don't subscribe to such notion.

Quote:
Quote:
‘A lonely God roaming the universe with extreme powers and abilities and no one around to appreciate the might of this lonely force! This must have been tough!’


I think you misunderstand the Islamic belief. For the Muslims always said that God was creating from eternity, as you know, the Muslims, the head pioneer of them being the hanabilah, that before he created the universe he was creating other things to.


Now, if you're going to go into a debate with me, then you better research and come up with references.

Can you please provide the Quranic verses or hadiths that show that God was creating from eternity?

Quote:
So Allah didn’t obtain the title creator only when he created, but rather, he has always been the creator. Who knows what he has created in the past. Maybe other life forms, but to say that he was ‘lonely’ is as much as a human conception as reproduction and just as irrelevant to God or his existence.


Muslim's best mate "Allah knows best" will not be accepted in a debate with me, please refrain from committing logical fallacies when conversing with me.

And even if Allah has had many creations before man, according to his messages and books, human were the only ones to have the freedom of choice. Therefore creating a being that had no choice but to worship does not count and will still not satisfy the desire of being acknowledged.
Quote:

Quote:
'This notion creates a predicament that God is just as needy as us, therefore his divinity is nothing but a fairy tale. He is just one of us!’


No, that is a Mistake. Not every action that emanates from this being can be reasoned or fathomed, after all, look at the realm of quantum physics, who can fathom that?!


Who are we to understand God? A nice way to get out of messy situations!

Realm of quantum physics! It's only a matter of time.

Quote:
Creating is not a sign of ‘neediness’ anymore then a king having a slave is a sign of an inability on his behalf.


The difference is a King can be removed from authority when needed, but your "invisible self-appointed king" punished those who oppose him by using fellow man as executioners.

Quote:
Quote:
‘God creates us out of nothingness to experience life and be put to the test. The vast majority according to the Abrahamic faiths will end up in a eternal torture of hellfire!!’


These questions amongst others don’t put a spanner in the works for those who believe in a God. Because unlike you, emotion is not a condition for his acceptance to be existed, they deem a God because of the Design Inference that can be made.


Are you suggesting that I used emotion to deduce there's no God! Now, That's a funny one!
I like the way you avoided the hellfire topic though, pretty sticky hey!

Quote:
Also, we have to understand wht you mean by nothingness. Because I’m not sure you understand what this term means, maybe you are thinking in terms of what some say ‘something from nothing’ as some say with regards to how this universe came into being. We are rather talking about God who can create without the need of ‘anything’. There is a subtle difference here that I think you should focus upon .


Thank you, I know what nothingness means in both scientific and theological terms. You have quoted my reference of nothingness in my blog out of context! This was not related to creation, it was related to punishment. I suggested why would a merciful God use eternal hellfire as a punishment for those who rejected him, instead of changing them to the state they're originated from "nothingness". Does Allah need revenge?

Quote:
Furthermore, lets say that God is evil, for the sake of argument. ( even though he isn’t). What will you do against him? What would you be able to do to fight or resist him?………..let me categorically say: NOTHING ( no Alll_Brains, not even a blog!)


Is this the best you could do. You and your bully God are telling me, it's what it's and you can't do a damn thing about it?

This is where you're wrong, I can do something about it. I am rejecting your Allah, educating the world about him and showing everyone the number of logical fallacies you have committed! Nothing beats that last comment of your though, what are you going to do about it? A typical bully attitude, what a shitty doctrine!

Quote:
Can I take this opportunity to ask you please,

Do you believe in God? I wasn’t too sure from reading your blog. Remember, to answer my points please. The crux of your discussion, I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that a God cannot communicate or produce a heaven and a hell.


I am atheist to the current belief and interpretation of God by all known religions.
I am agnostic to what I don't know "yet".

Good talking to you and hope you chat with all of us when you have the time.

All_Brains
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You accused the blog of being pretentious and some of the questions being false without giving examples! This is a logical fallacy.


no it won't qualify as being a logical fallacy bearing in mind if you scrolled down and read what i wrote, you wouldn't say it. So i gave you the examples of hell, existence of evil, not being precursors of atheism, because they do not explain away a design inference.

Quote:

I am glad you're happy, although such forums are giving Islam real hard time and not easily refutable.


I haven't come across this. if FFI is giving Islaam a real hard time, then, theres problems! ( for your camp anyway)

Quote:
I disagree. I alone have helped 23 people in the past 3 years to step out of the dark.


Sure you did Smile


Quote:
Now, if you're going to go into a debate with me, then you better research and come up with references.

Can you please provide the Quranic verses or hadiths that show that God was creating from eternity?


Sure, please read the sharh of aqeedah atahawiyyah by imam izz al hanafi. under the point where tahawi says that Allah 'was the creator before he created anything' its one of his 100 or so points, i will find you it if you can't find it.

pls also read this link : http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=416 i'm not sure you may understand it though.

you can also see on this link too http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=31&sub_cat_id=810



Quote:
And even if Allah has had many creations before man, according to his messages and books, human were the only ones to have the freedom of choice.


Wrong, we are talking about creations before the appearance of the universe. think of the multiverse to get a clearer picture. And who told you humans were the only one to have freedom of choice?

Quote:
Therefore creating a being that had no choice but to worship does not count and will still not satisfy the desire of being acknowledged.



I'm sorry, please explain. Creating something to be acknowldged doesn't show the lack of existence of a creator, or the lack of possibility that other beings exist, for we know that Angels were praising Allah.
Again, all these questions, do not show whether a creator exists or not, but are merely theortical discussions on his motives.


Quote:
Who are we to understand God? A nice way to get out of messy situations!

Realm of quantum physics! It's only a matter of time


no you misunderstand, how can we fathom the 'howness' of God or his nature, but his attributes and names can be comprehended.
Imagine an ant on a football. to the ant, he won;t realise he is on a 3 dimesnional object, because he will always see a in a 2 dimensional realm


As for Quantum physics, then youmay misunderstanmd, sure it may only be a matter of time, but quantum physics, is also said to be indetermistic, there will always be a possibility we will never understand it.

Quote:
The difference is a King can be removed from authority when needed, but your "invisible self-appointed king" punished those who oppose him by using fellow man as executioners.


this is an emotional point that doesn't serve any prupose or answer anything I said. if the King of the universe does this, what will you do about it?

Quote:
Are you suggesting that I used emotion to deduce there's no God! Now, That's a funny one!
I like the way you avoided the hellfire topic though, pretty sticky hey!


I answered the point here, and elsewhere on your forum. such notions of hell do not disapporove the existence of God, if so how?
the point is not a difficult one at all.

Quote:
Thank you, I know what nothingness means in both scientific and theological terms. You have quoted my reference of nothingness in my blog out of context! This was not related to creation, it was related to punishment. I suggested why would a merciful God use eternal hellfire as a punishment for those who rejected him, instead of changing them to the state they're originated from "nothingness". Does Allah need revenge?


i'm not sure you do, but lets proceed. Again, you are asking question which have nothing to do with whether a God exists or not, and oif God wants to punish though who don't accept him, how do you avoid his punishment then? of course, just acknowldge him then....its not brain science!

And if you don't like it....well, tough! Its his domain, its his creation, what are young to do about it?


Quote:
This is where you're wrong, I can do something about it. I am rejecting your Allah, educating the world about him and showing everyone the number of logical fallacies you have committed!


lol, your saying it as if Allah NEEDS YOU?! You think the Muslim ummah know about this insignificant community of apostates? it was sheer luck i came to the forum before this one, I never even knew murtaads existed,!

i think your tricking yourself, your plots and plans, will fail, fact, don't believe me? Watch this space. Somehow, I don't see the murtaad line growing strong.

Quote:
Good talking to you and hope you chat with all of us when you have the time.

All_Brains


thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Some comments from your blog Reply with quote

Hi Ameen,

You seem to frequent a great many ex-Muslim sites and forums.

Whats the deal with you?

Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Some comments from your blog Reply with quote

cosmicdancer wrote:
Hi Ameen,

You seem to frequent a great many ex-Muslim sites and forums.

Whats the deal with you?

Smile


Hi Abu Ali

go read about hujjah Wink i. e establishing proof
also, you speak in theplural, what sites have yous een me at, i have been only to one where the intellectual discussions were null and void, and where one guy, is trying his hardest to get an internet girlfriend....no which one I mean abu ali?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Ameen

I am Psychologist and my blog is designed to analyse the "howness and whyness" of God through his own stories, uttering, messengers and books.

Analysing all of the above proved to that the author of the Quran and all other religions is nothing but human.

Allah is not 100% mystery, for he justified his conduct in his books, so we should be able to analyse this, through his conduct!

I have analysed this Allah and found him a phony!

Now, let's leave all the generalisation as it will not lead to much.

Would you like to enter into a one in one debate with me? We will be discussing Allah, Quran, Hadith and the message of Islam.

Let me know if you're ok with this offer and I will open a thread in the appropriate section of the forum.

Regards
All_Brains
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ameen

I am Psychologist and my blog is designed to analyse the "howness and whyness" of God through his own stories, uttering, messengers and books.

Analysing all of the above proved to that the author of the Quran and all other religions is nothing but human.

Allah is not 100% mystery, for he justified his conduct in his books, so we should be able to analyse this, through his conduct!

I have analysed this Allah and found him a phony!

Now, let's leave all the generalisation as it will not lead to much.

Would you like to enter into a one in one debate with me? We will be discussing Allah, Quran, Hadith and the message of Islam.

Let me know if you're ok with this offer and I will open a thread in the appropriate section of the forum.

Regards
All_Brains


All_Brains,

You are now a psychologist? I thought you was a linguist? or I thought you studied what every scientist said and every social scientist said on a particular issue?

So which of these are you? Maybe all of the above! Gosh you must be so clever, I'm not sure i would be able to compete with such intelligence Smile

As I said above, I might not have time to stay because of my busy schedule and bearing in mind that many points i have said so far haven;t been answered, I'm not sure your understanding the crux of the issue, like one forum I was on before, they were baffled, they resorted to copying and pasting on FFI! ( as if this was research!)

maybe we can answer the above points i.e how does a the attribution of evil = non existence? whatis the logical explanantion of the appearance of design we have in the universe?

thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ameen wrote:
All_Brains,

You are now a psychologist? I thought you was a linguist? or I thought you studied what every scientist said and every social scientist said on a particular issue?


I have several educational degrees and indeed I teach Psychology in a reputable university in the west. I am also linguist due to my very first BA.
Quote:

So which of these are you? Maybe all of the above! Gosh you must be so clever, I'm not sure i would be able to compete with such intelligence Smile


I am indeed all of the above and will not tolerate personal attacks. Please focus on the matter, I don't know you and I have no intention of mocking your person. Let's stick to our views.

Quote:
As I said above, I might not have time to stay because of my busy schedule and bearing in mind that many points i have said so far haven;t been answered, I'm not sure your understanding the crux of the issue, like one forum I was on before, they were baffled, they resorted to copying and pasting on FFI! ( as if this was research!)


Trust me I understand the "crux" of the issue and please stop claiming victory before we even start debating. It's up to you, I am challenging you to prove that Islam and Allah are false and fail your duty as a Muslim to defend your religion.

Quote:
maybe we can answer the above points i.e how does a the attribution of evil = non existence? whatis the logical explanantion of the appearance of design we have in the universe?


I actually answered this several times, but here its goes again.

Evil = non-existence of this particular God aka (Allah) and not the possibility of a God at all.

They're too separate issues. That's why in my article, I ended it with the phrase "I know (this one) is a phone!"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have several educational degrees and indeed I teach Psychology in a reputable university in the west. I am also linguist due to my very first BA.


Smile sure.

Quote:
Trust me I understand the "crux" of the issue and please stop claiming victory before we even start debating. It's up to you, I am challenging you to prove that Islam and Allah are false and fail your duty as a Muslim to defend your religion.


you are challenging me to prove that Allah and Islaam is false? Who ever said i said it was false?
also, its not the duty for every Muslim to defend every attack upon the religion.

Quote:
I actually answered this several times, but here its goes again.

Evil = non-existence of this particular God aka (Allah) and not the possibility of a God at all.



'and not the possibility of a God at all' sorry explain this part.

I think I'm making it hard upon you, so let me make it very easy, maybe you can just give a yes or a no to make it easy upon you.

1. Does evil demolish the concept of there being a God? Yes or No.

2. Can God be evil? Yes or No?

3. If God exists, can he communicate with the creation? Yes or No

4. If he communicates with the creation, can he do thing you don't like, or want?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ameen wrote:
Quote:
I have several educational degrees and indeed I teach Psychology in a reputable university in the west. I am also linguist due to my very first BA.


Smile sure.

Quote:
Trust me I understand the "crux" of the issue and please stop claiming victory before we even start debating. It's up to you, I am challenging you to prove that Islam and Allah are false and fail your duty as a Muslim to defend your religion.


you are challenging me to prove that Allah and Islaam is false? Who ever said i said it was false?
also, its not the duty for every Muslim to defend every attack upon the religion.

Quote:
I actually answered this several times, but here its goes again.

Evil = non-existence of this particular God aka (Allah) and not the possibility of a God at all.



'and not the possibility of a God at all' sorry explain this part.

I think I'm making it hard upon you, so let me make it very easy, maybe you can just give a yes or a no to make it easy upon you.

1. Does evil demolish the concept of there being a God? Yes or No.

2. Can God be evil? Yes or No?

3. If God exists, can he communicate with the creation? Yes or No

4. If he communicates with the creation, can he do thing you don't like, or want?


Mate! I am not that naive to go into a "leading" line of questions!

In a one on one debate I am going to prove to you that Allah is not a God, Muhammad wasn't sent by God and Islam is a man-made religion. Third and last time, are you interested and do you have the ability to prove me wrong???


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