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The qu'ran and homosexuality
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ibnishaq
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: The qu'ran and homosexuality  Reply with quote

Hello,

I find qu'ran mentions homosexuality 5 times.

SURA IV: 19-21

19. But whoso rebels against God and His Apostle, and transgresses His bounds, He will make him enter into fire, and dwell therein for aye; and for him is shameful woe.

20. Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way.

21. And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.

SURA VII: 78-84 [On Lot at Sodom]

78. Then the earthquake took them, and in the morning they lay prone in their dwellings;

79. and he turned away from them and said, 'O my people! I did preach to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice; but ye love not sincere advisers.'

80. And Lot, when he said to his people, 'Do ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in?

81. verily, ye approach men with lust rather than women- nay, ye are a people who exceed.'

82.But his people's answer only was to say, 'Turn them out of your village, verily, they are a people who pretend to purity.'

83. But we saved him and his people, except his wife, who was of those who lingered;

84. and we rained down upon them a rain;- see then how was the end of the sinners!

SURA XI: 77-84 [On Lot at Sodom]

77. And when our messengers came to Lot, he was grieved for them; but his arm was straitened for them, and he said, 'This is a troublesome day!'

78. And his people came to him, rushing at him, for before that they used to work evil. He 'Said, 'O my people! here are my daughters, they are purer for you; then, fear God, and do not disgrace me through my guests;- is there not among you one right-thinking man?'

79. They said, 'Thou knowest that we have no claim on thy daughters; verily, thou knowest what we want!'

80. He said, 'Had I but power over you; or could I but resort to some strong column....!'

81. (The angels) said, 'O Lot! verily, we are the messengers of thy Lord, they shall certainly not reach thee; then travel with thy people in the darkness of the night, and let none of you look round except thy wife: verily, there shall befall her what befalls them. Verily, their appointment is for the morning! and is not the morning nigh?'

82. And when our bidding came, we made their high parts their low parts. And we rained down upon them stones and baked clay one after another,

83. marked, from thy Lord, and these are not so far from the unjust!

84. And unto Midian (we sent) their brother Sho'haib. He said, 'O my people! serve God; ye have no god but Him, and give not short measure and weight. Verily, 'I see you well off; but, verily, I fear for you the torments of an encompassing day.

SURA XXVI: 160-174 [On Lot and Sodom]


160. The people of Lot called the apostles liars;

161 when their brother Lot said to them, 'Do ye not fear?

162. verily, I am to you a faithful apostle;

163. then fear God and obey me.

164 I do not ask you for it any hire; my hire is only with the Lord of the worlds.

165 Do ye approach males of all the world

166 and leave what God your Lord has created for you of your wives? nay, but [b]ye are people who transgress!
'[/b]

167 They said, 'Surely, if thou dost not desist, O Lot! thou shalt be of those who are expelled!'

168 Said he, 'Verily, I am of those who hate your deed;

169 my Lord! save me and my people from what they do.'

170 And we saved him and his people all together,

171 except an old woman amongst those who lingered.

172 Then we destroyed the others;

173 and we rained down upon them a rain; and evil was the rain of those who were warned.

174 Verily, in that is a sign; but most of them will never be believers.


175 And, verily, thy Lord He is mighty, merciful, compassionate.

SURA XXIX: 28-35 [On Lot and Sodom]

28. And (remmber) Lot when he said to his people, 'Verily, ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in!

29. What! do ye approach men? (or Do you commit sexual acts with men?) and stop folks on the highway? And approach in your assembly sin?' but the answer of his people was only to say, 'Bring us God's torment, if thou art of those who speak the truth!'

30. Said he, 'My Lord! help me against a people who do evil!'

31. And when our messengers came to Abraham with the glad tidings, they said, 'We are about to destroy the people of this city. Verily, the people thereof are wrong-doers.'

32. Said he, 'Verily, in it is Lot; they said, 'We know best who is therein; we shall of a surety save him and his people, except his wife, who is of those who linger.'

33. And when our messengers came to Lot, he was vexed for them, and his arm was straitened for them; and they said, 'Fear not, neither grieve; we are about to save thee and thy people, except thy wife, who is of those who linger.

34. Verily, we are about to send down upon the people of this city a horror from heaven, for that they have sinned;

35. and we have left therefrom a manifest sign unto a people who have sense.'



Conclusion: the qu'ran is strongly against homosexuality, saying that one should be lashed for having gay sex, saying that gays are "people who exceed and transgress" saying that he "hates the deed" and killing the people of soddom with brimstone.


My question is WHY? I am bisexual and I have a boyfriend who I love deeply. I do not hurt anyone by having a boyfriend. I did not choose to be bi. I swear by my mother that I did not choose to be bi. I spent so much of my life trying NOT to be bi. But I can not choose. I like other guys. I have a boyfriend whom I love dearly. And yes, we do have sex. But we are hurting not a single soul. We are doing nothing to hurt anyone or to cause any harm.

I give a lot of my money to charity. I volunteer at a local soup kitchen. Every March I participate in the annual park clean up. Twice a year I participate at events to help needy children. I help the special olympics for those who are mentally challenged every year as well.

I am a GOOD person. I do not eat meat. I would NEVER hurt a soul even if I had to die. I try to be so nice to everyone as much as I can.

So why am I sinning simply because I love a guy? We are both adults, both consenting.

It tears me apart to feel like a sinner when I am so innocent. I hate feeling like I will be in eternal hell all because I like a guy!

So please, muslims, tell me what I am doing that is just such an abomination and so terrible? Tell me what I am doing that is so unnatural? Because I will tell you right now that most people agree that homosexuality is not a choice. Look at what American Psychological Association says.
Quote:
Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.


So please tell me what I am doing that is so wrong. I did NOT choose to be this way. And yes, I love a guy, and we do sexual things, but we do it out of LOVE not out of LUST. We do it to bring us closer to each other through a bond. We love each other and we are not doing anything to hurt others.
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Tvebak
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Shaq

You are not doing anything wrong. Despite what most of the different religions preach (and sadly also monotheism 4.0 Bahai') there's is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's completely natural, many other animalgroups have homosexual relations aswell. There's different reasons to why people are homosexuals (or bi-) and some are "made" homosexuals from birth. Live it if you want to.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
Hi Shaq

You are not doing anything wrong. Despite what most of the different religions preach (and sadly also monotheism 4.0 Bahai') there's is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's completely natural, many other animalgroups have homosexual relations aswell. There's different reasons to why people are homosexuals (or bi-) and some are "made" homosexuals from birth. Live it if you want to.

Cheers

thanks for the soothing response.

but for some reason i still believe in islam and i still feel soooo bad for just being me, you know?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi Shaq

You are not doing anything wrong. Despite what most of the different religions preach (and sadly also monotheism 4.0 Bahai') there's is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's completely natural, many other animalgroups have homosexual relations aswell. There's different reasons to why people are homosexuals (or bi-) and some are "made" homosexuals from birth. Live it if you want to.

Cheers

thanks for the soothing response.

but for some reason i still believe in islam and i still feel soooo bad for just being me, you know?


Your welcome

But sorry can't say that I understand you completely, as I have not been in a situation like that. But I can try... and believing that the "divine being" hates what "I" am, if I was a homosexual that must be quite disturbing. But that just absurd in my opinion. The "divine being" made "I" and know exactly how "I"'m gonna end up. That's cruel and sadistic and not very "divine".

Cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: “A whole new kingdom of gaydom!” Reply with quote

From the various passages in the Qur’an you can in fact interpret ‘homosexuality’ as not that big of a sin. 4:21 shows that bumming another man does not merit death: if they repent after punishment you should allow them to go free.

Rereading the story of Lot leads me to this conclusion: that Lot himself condemns homosexuality, not Allah. Now you can, by extension, claim that Lot as a ‘prophet’ would only act in a manner sanctioned by God, but none of those passages about Lot show God as condemning homosexuality.

To summarise the story: Lot gets majorly pissed off at the residents of Sodom having sex with guys. He takes them to task for this. They tell him to shut up or they’ll beat him and his family and run them out of town. He then cries out to God to save him from an arse–whooping. God rains down fire & brimstone upon the whole town aside from some anonymous old woman.

Interesting that only the ahadith strongly cast fulminations upon homosexuals!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: “A whole new kingdom of gaydom!” Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
From the various passages in the Qur’an you can in fact interpret ‘homosexuality’ as not that big of a sin. 4:21 shows that bumming another man does not merit death: if they repent after punishment you should allow them to go free.

Rereading the story of Lot leads me to this conclusion: that Lot himself condemns homosexuality, not Allah. Now you can, by extension, claim that Lot as a ‘prophet’ would only act in a manner sanctioned by God, but none of those passages about Lot show God as condemning homosexuality.

To summarise the story: Lot gets majorly pissed off at the residents of Sodom having sex with guys. He takes them to task for this. They tell him to shut up or they’ll beat him and his family and run them out of town. He then cries out to God to save him from an arse–whooping. God rains down fire & brimstone upon the whole town aside from some anonymous old woman.

Interesting that only the ahadith strongly cast fulminations upon homosexuals!


The whole town gets punished for homosexuality. That's the morale of the story, as I've understood it. But I agree that the quran does not seem to have anything directly on "deathpenalty" for homosexuality.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can agree that it says nothing about the death penalty which makes me question the hadiths because they contradict the qu'ran!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
I can agree that it says nothing about the death penalty which makes me question the hadiths because they contradict the qu'ran!


Hi shaq

Cause one book does not have anything on a subject and another has does not mean they contradict on the matter. They are just different. The quran does not say "don't punish the homosexuals".

Cheers
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:33 am    Post subject: “I’m a massive gayer!” Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
The whole town gets punished for homosexuality. That's the morale of the story, as I've understood it.

So people tell us. And perhaps when Muhammad related this tale to his followers they would take it the same way, but the wording makes it seem more to me like God punished the whole town because Lot cried out for help. And Lot cried out for help because the town threatened to beat the crap out of him.

(Aside: I love your sig, and Daniel Dennett in particular )
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: “I’m a massive gayer!” Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
The whole town gets punished for homosexuality. That's the morale of the story, as I've understood it.

So people tell us. And perhaps when Muhammad related this tale to his followers they would take it the same way, but the wording makes it seem more to me like God punished the whole town because Lot cried out for help. And Lot cried out for help because the town threatened to beat the crap out of him.

(Aside: I love your sig, and Daniel Dennett in particular )


Haha "daddy kill the evil ones they are teasing". No in my opinion it's perfectly clear that they are punished becaused they did "evil" trangressed the boundaries of ""gods" law" etc.

Fx.
29.31 "When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime.""

Yes Daniel Dennett is a good read. A philosopher to remember in the future.

Cheers


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