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"Born-again", "Saved": what is it?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:20 am    Post subject: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it?  Reply with quote

This opening post is intended as a simple primer of what "salvation" means and how to get it. The post is not intended to sell you anything. There is much confusion about what "Saved" and "Born-again" mean in Christianity. What you do with this information, is a private affair between God and you. It will not be sugar-coated.

Bible has this really harrowing message: you must believe in Christ to be "saved" from hell, John 3:16, 3:18, 3:36. The verses in English translation (I'm translating directly from the original Greek) go as follows. Verb tense is important here, and English can't really convey it, so in English you must add words to show the Greek tenses properly and thus convey the real meaning. Commercially-published Bibles are not allowed to insert the extra words, are hampered by a weird rule that you can only use one English word for one Greek word; so their translations are ambiguous. The original text is not ambiguous, so neither is the translation, here.

Quote:
John 3:16: "For God loved the world so much, that He gave His Uniquely-born Son, with the final result that whosoever believes in Him shall never perish, but have Eternal [God's Own Type of] Life."


Quote:
John 3:18: "He who believes [the first time] in Him is not judged; but he who has never believed is judged already, because he has never believed in the uniquely-born Son of God."


Quote:
John 3:36: "He who believes [first time] in the Son has Eternal [God's Own Type of] Life; but he who refuses-to-believe in the Son will not 'see' [Eternal] Life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."


Pretty scary verses, right? Stark choice: believe Jesus the Christ paid for your sins 2000 years ago, or you go to hell. If you believe, you permanently are saved, since you get Eternal Life, which is God's Own Type of Life.

Now since you get a new life if you believe and cannot ever go to hell as a result, it's called "born again". Actually, it means "born from above" (from God):

Quote:
John 3:7: "Do not wonder (or be troubled) that I testify, 'You must be born from above.'
John 3:8: "The wind blows where it wills, and the sound of it you hear, but you don't know from where it comes, and where it goes. Analogously, so is the one who is born of the Spirit [you can't discern it physically like you can't discern the wind's origin or destination]."


Why so high a salvation, and so low a penalty if you don't believe?

Quote:
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and missed-the-goal-post of the Glory of God."
In the marathon footrace of life, you can't run long enough and well enough to earn God's Righteousness. Atop that, you'll sin (i.e., get angry in traffic, irritated at Windows glitches, not just the big sins).

So only God can solve this problem, huh. Yep:
Quote:
2Corinthians 5:21 "He [Christ, in context] Who knew no sin, Made Sin! in our place, with the final purpose/result that we become the Righteousness of God by agency of Him [Christ]."


So, just like Eternal Life, you receive God's Own Righteousness that moment you believed, so you can't lose your salvation. You can't lose what's Infinite and Eternal. And to get this, to be born from above spiritually and be saved forever, you merely believe Christ paid for your sins on the Cross 2000 years ago. He did it whether you believe or not, but God will not coerce you. Maybe you don't want to live with Him forever. So believe means you do want to, and not believe, means you do not want to.

Therefore, hell is the only alternative, if you do not want to. Because, you are turning down a free gift.
Quote:
John 16:8-9 "and when that One [the Holy Spirit] comes, He will convince the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgement. Concerning sin, because they have not [yet] believed in Me."
So no one goes to hell because of sin, since sin was already paid on the Cross 2000 years ago. One goes to hell for never believing in Christ.

That's the basic meaning of "Born-again" and "Saved". "Point of the Cross" topics in this "Christianity" section will explain more basics.

Discuss? Debate?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it? Reply with quote

Quote:
Therefore, hell is the only alternative, if you do not want to. Because, you are turning down a free gift.
Quote:
John 16:8-9 "and when that One [the Holy Spirit] comes, He will convince the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgement. Concerning sin, because they have not [yet] believed in Me."
So no one goes to hell because of sin, since sin was already paid on the Cross 2000 years ago. One goes to hell for never believing in Christ.

That's the basic meaning of "Born-again" and "Saved". "Point of the Cross" topics in this "Christianity" section will explain more basics.

Discuss? Debate?


Which sin was paid for on the cross?

And do I still go to heaven "be with God" if I sinned a great deal, but believed in JC?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALL sin was paid for on the Cross. Idea that ALL sin is wrong, no matter how great or small. 1 John 2:2 is a sample verse on that. Deeper point is that no injustice should go unpaid, and since man is tainted, he can't pay. Hence in the OT you had all those sacrifices, which depicted Messiah To Come paying for the sins, which the animal represented (and so did the Mercy Seat, gold=Deity, acacia wood=Humanity). So the person would bring the animal to the priest, and put his hands on the animal. That's to depict the substitution OF the animal, which then is slain, so the sin is paid for. It's all metaphorical of a then-future event.

That's why Isaiah 53 calls Christ the lamb (53:7, ka seh latevah yuval uk rahel lifnai gozezeha clause).

You could be an axe murderer or even a Hitler and if you believed in Christ at least once in your lifetime, you still go to heaven when you die. Many people balk at that, but 1Jn2:2 doesn't exclude anyone. No verses in the Bible exclude people due to certain sins. Because, they were already foreknown and all of them were paid. So the only reason anyone goes to hell is because he never once believed in Christ, John 3:36.

Bear in mind, though, that a person who practices evil doesn't mature spiritually, so WHERE he is in 'heaven' (the eternal state, really) might be very low on the totem pole or far away. There is a hierarchy. That's why the Bible talks about thrones and stuff (John 14, "crown" verses, "kingship" verses like Rev5:10, etc).

Again, just trying to give you a brief on this. No way anyone can be convinced in a forum, not enough information can be given. Only, exposure to root ideas and maybe food for thought...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:32 am    Post subject: Re: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it? Reply with quote

brainout wrote:

Pretty scary verses, right?  Stark choice:  believe Jesus the Christ paid for your sins 2000 years ago, or you go to hell.  If you believe, you permanently are saved, since you get Eternal Life, which is God's Own Type of Life.

Now since you get a new life if you believe and cannot ever go to hell as a result, it's called "born again".  Actually, it means "born from above" (from God):


It means seeing things as they are, rather than the lense of our concepts, categories, words......We use these things so much that we don't see the thing itself, we see our category for it, and lump them all together, when in fact, everything is unique, despite their similarities. It also means, seeing something for the first time....again and again......constant renewal that occurs when one sees the thing itself rather than one's stale concept for it.

[quote="brainout"]
Quote:
John 3:7: "Do not wonder (or be troubled) that I testify, 'You must be born from above.'
John 3:8: "The wind blows where it wills, and the sound of it you hear, but you don't know from where it comes, and where it goes.  Analogously, so is the one who is born of the Spirit  [you can't discern it physically like you can't discern the wind's origin or destination]."


There is a concept that is called, having things done through you. rather than by you. It's a sort of denial of the self similar to what is found in Eastern concepts. When one is no longer exihibiting any concern for themselves, then God has the room to work through them. I suppose, iin it's highest form, it would be God doing the thinking, not you anymore.

brainout wrote:

Why so high a salvation, and so low a penalty if you don't believe?

Quote:
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and missed-the-goal-post of the Glory of God."
 In the marathon footrace of life, you can't run long enough and well enough to earn God's Righteousness.  Atop that, you'll sin (i.e., get angry in traffic, irritated at Windows glitches, not just the big sins).

So only God can solve this problem, huh.  Yep:  
Quote:
2Corinthians 5:21 "He [Christ, in context] Who knew no sin, Made Sin! in our place, with the final purpose/result that we become the Righteousness of God by agency of Him [Christ]."


So, just like Eternal Life, you receive God's Own Righteousness that moment you believed, so you can't lose your salvation.  You can't lose what's Infinite and Eternal.


You can't find it either, because you've always had it. How can one find what they already have?

brainout wrote:

And to get this, to be born from above spiritually and be saved forever, you merely believe Christ paid for your sins on the Cross 2000 years ago.  He did it whether you believe or not, but God will not coerce you.


Nobody really knows what God would or wouldn't do.

brainout wrote:

Maybe you don't want to live with Him forever.  So believe means you do want to, and not believe, means you do not want to.


Who wouldn't want to live forever with a God that gives you what you want?

brainout wrote:

Therefore, hell is the only alternative, if you do not want to.


What about just simply not letting them continue on to the next life?

brainout wrote:

Because, you are turning down a free gift.


I don't think that this reasoning, in of itself, is reason to torture someone. There might be reason for the torture that we do not know, but what you said ain't it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it? Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
This opening post is intended as a simple primer of what "salvation" means and how to get it.  The post is not intended to sell you anything.  There is much confusion about what "Saved" and "Born-again" mean in Christianity.  What you do with this information, is a private affair between God and you.  It will not be sugar-coated.

Bible has this really harrowing message:  you must believe in Christ to be "saved" from hell, John 3:16, 3:18, 3:36.  The verses in English translation (I'm translating directly from the original Greek) go as follows.  Verb tense is important here, and English can't really convey it, so in English you must add words to show the Greek tenses properly and thus convey the real meaning. Commercially-published Bibles are not allowed to insert the extra words, are hampered by a weird rule that you can only use one English word for one Greek word;   so their translations are ambiguous.  The original text is not ambiguous, so neither is the translation, here.

Quote:
John 3:16:  "For God loved the world so much, that He gave His Uniquely-born Son, with the final result that whosoever believes in Him shall never perish, but have Eternal [God's Own Type of] Life."


Quote:
John 3:18:  "He who believes [the first time] in Him is not judged;  but he who has never believed is judged already, because he has never believed in the uniquely-born Son of God."


Quote:
John 3:36: "He who believes [first time] in the Son has Eternal [God's Own Type of] Life;  but he who refuses-to-believe in the Son will not 'see' [Eternal] Life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."


Pretty scary verses, right?  Stark choice:  believe Jesus the Christ paid for your sins 2000 years ago, or you go to hell.  If you believe, you permanently are saved, since you get Eternal Life, which is God's Own Type of Life.

Now since you get a new life if you believe and cannot ever go to hell as a result, it's called "born again".  Actually, it means "born from above" (from God):

Quote:
John 3:7: "Do not wonder (or be troubled) that I testify, 'You must be born from above.'
John 3:8: "The wind blows where it wills, and the sound of it you hear, but you don't know from where it comes, and where it goes.  Analogously, so is the one who is born of the Spirit  [you can't discern it physically like you can't discern the wind's origin or destination]."


Why so high a salvation, and so low a penalty if you don't believe?

Quote:
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and missed-the-goal-post of the Glory of God."
 In the marathon footrace of life, you can't run long enough and well enough to earn God's Righteousness.  Atop that, you'll sin (i.e., get angry in traffic, irritated at Windows glitches, not just the big sins).

So only God can solve this problem, huh.  Yep:  
Quote:
2Corinthians 5:21 "He [Christ, in context] Who knew no sin, Made Sin! in our place, with the final purpose/result that we become the Righteousness of God by agency of Him [Christ]."


So, just like Eternal Life, you receive God's Own Righteousness that moment you believed, so you can't lose your salvation.  You can't lose what's Infinite and Eternal.  And to get this, to be born from above spiritually and be saved forever, you merely believe Christ paid for your sins on the Cross 2000 years ago.  He did it whether you believe or not, but God will not coerce you.  Maybe you don't want to live with Him forever.  So believe means you do want to, and not believe, means you do not want to.

Therefore, hell is the only alternative, if you do not want to.  Because, you are turning down a free gift.  
Quote:
John 16:8-9 "and when that One [the Holy Spirit] comes, He will convince the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgement.  Concerning sin, because they have not [yet] believed in Me."
 So no one goes to hell because of sin, since sin was already paid on the Cross 2000 years ago.  One goes to hell for never believing in Christ.

That's the basic meaning of "Born-again" and "Saved".  "Point of the Cross" topics in this "Christianity" section will explain more basics.

Discuss?  Debate?


Many years ago I investigated whether or not "only begotten son" was a legitimate comprehension of that Koine Greek verse, and like yourself I determined it wasn't. At one time I came to the exact same conclusion as you did with "Uniquely-born Son."

However, as my studies progressed, I arrived at the conclusion that the verse means quite simply "only son." Let me show you how I came to that.

outwV gar hgaphsen o qeoV ton kosmon wste ton uion autou ton monogenh edwken ina paV o pisteuwn eiV auton mh apolhtai all ech zwhn aiwnion.

I wish I could actually type out the Koine Greek here but this transliteration will have to do. So let's pick out the words we need to examine:

monogenes & huios

So let me give you an idea of what I've been working on for a few years. Below is my translation/interpretation of John 3.16, and I'd like you to tell me what is wrong with it:

3.16: Therefore in like manner, because the God loved his creation, so also his son- himself the only son- gave all who have faith in him no damnation, but to have eternal life.

Before we continue, I need your opinion on the above translation. After that, I'll go into other things you have mentioned.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom, Here's the whole John 3:16 verse in Greek phonetic transliteration which I like better (I recognize the transliteration system you used, but most here would be unfamiliar with it, hence the retyping).  For the eta I'll use "E":  it's pronounced "ay" as in "bay".  (For the rest of you, the "w" is a longish "oh" sound, there is no English letter equivalent.  The "ch" (chi) is really an "X", transliterated phonetically.  The "h" is a diacritical mark for rough breathing preceding the vowel, not an actual Greek letter, here represented as "h".  The original-language text was all block letters, no punctuation, spacing between words or diacritical marks;  occasionally you'll see samples of its style in History Channel documentaries.  So the spacing, capitalization, diacritical marks and punctuation were all added later, in copies, so that it would be easier to read the text.  Everyone KNEW that stuff was added, so are taught to ignore those additions, when exegeting.  But almost no one remembers to do that, hence many mistranslations are in published Bibles, especially in James 4:5.)

So it reads like this.  I'm putting in extra information in superscript because some of the others will need it to follow along  (i.e., some ask how the accusative of huios is used when both an object, and when in a prepositional clause which takes the accusative but is NOT an object).


"houtws gar EgapEsen ho theos ton kosmon, hwste ton huion ton monogenE edwken, hina pas ho pisteuwn eis auton mE apolEtai all' echEi zwEn aiwnion."

Fathom, you can't translate "ton monogenE" as you have.  Never mind this is the Bible, the words have meaning which long predate the text.  The term is a compound of "monos", meaning "unique, one of a kind", and "genos", cognate noun (related to "genea") from "gennaw", to SIRE.  So it solely means "uniquely-born".  Sadly "only begotten" was begotten in Christian literature (pun intended), so this misunderstanding has persisted down to this day.  Repeat a mixed-up translation long enough and it passes for truth, with everyone defending it; never mind, what the actual truth is.

    As a result, you have a lot of goofy Christian sects, like the Mormons who believe God the Father has a body, based on the ENGLISH MISTRANSLATION of "only begotten".  It never occurs to them that God as Infinite Creator doesn't need to have sex to create, lol.  So too, the Westminster Confession and a number of weird ideas mixing up the Voluntary UNequal use of Authority in the Godhead, resulted from not understanding monogenes.

    Also, they imposed this stupid one-English-word-for-one-Greek-word standard, which LEAVES OUT meaning that is in the Greek text.  So to put BACK at least some of that meaning, I will use extra words here.  It's never possible to convey all the meaning in a translation.
 Verse is a mix of Attic Greek.  I'll retranslate, with the Greek words in parenthesis so you can see what I'm translating.


"For (garpost-positive conjunction/particle) God loved (EgapEsen ho theos aorist tense of agapaw, 3rd masc. sing.) the world (ton kosmon masc. singular accusative case of kosmos) SO MUCH (houtwsadverbial, quasi-Attic because it begins the sentence, proleptic) with the dramatic result that (hwste, Attic Greek, hence "dramatic") He gave up (edwken aorist 3rd masc. sing of didomi, tense matches agapaw) His Uniquely-Born Son (ton ho is in 3rd masc. sing. acc., the article as possessive, huion ton monogenE, 3rd sing. masc. acc., monadic use of definite article ho stresses uniqueness meaning in huios and monogenes-1-) with the final purposed result that (hina final purpose clause signifying blending of purpose and result, normally takes the subjunctive-4-) anyone who believes (pas ho pisteuwn present active participle masc. nom.sing translated as a finite clause, pas masc. sing has substantival force because it's w/masc. sing. nom. article) in Him (eis auton -- eis takes the accusative case, means "into" but in consummative idea clauses far more often "because of", like in Romans 10:10; English "in" conveys both meanings here;  auton (sing. masc. accusative of autos, ="him"-5-) is ANARTHROUS, stresses Uniqueness+Divinity) CANNOT perish (mE apoletai -- the mE+positive indicative aorist denies even the IDEA of perishing being possible) but (alla conjunction of stark contrast) possesses (echo means "to have, hold, grasp, possess" and is in subjunctive active present 3rd masc. sing. to agree with apolEtai, TENSE SWITCH IN ECHO, BIG RED FLAG stressing a INSTANT present reality result from an aorist purpose, TIED TO the present active participle of pisteuw, so it's a matching between the instant of belief and the instant in which you get Eternal Life -3-) God's Own Eternal Life."  (Greek zwEn aiwnion is a technical term for God's Own Property/Attribute of Life everywhere in Bible, which has no beginning or ending, qualitative, gift-able for that reason.-2-)

Hermeneutics demands that you translate in light of what the words meant at that time and that you know which KIND of Greek is being used;  that you know how that particular word is used IN the text itself, just as in any legal text the words must be defined within the text itself;  only if no definition (via usage or specific article of definition) is given, can you use the common meaning of a word in usage at that time in that language.  These rules are true for all textual criticism, not merely Bible.  So if you wanted to know what Socrates meant by a term he used, you'd have to look up everything in Plato which used the term that way.

Until the 1930's, Greek scholars all understood that the Bible frequently used Attic Greek constructions and Atticisms.  But then they went wacko, and insisted it's all koine.  It's not, and you can prove that, with a little legwork.  Mainstream scholarship in Bible has declined markedly in the past 30 years, especially.  It's pathetic, because often you can't even know what's meant if you don't know WHICH Greek is being used (i.e., the stupid double nominatives' mixup over Eph1:7 and Col 1:14, not reading the Ionic dative of epi in Ephesians 2:10, etc., ad nauseum, but I digress).

So sorry, dear Fathom, we can't agree on the translation.  Some of the sense you mean to convey is there, but as you can see above some is quite different.  And a lot of it, is untranslatable, which is why I stuck in the Greek tenses: i.e., there's no equivalent for the aorist tense in English, and when TENSES SWITCH, as they do between aorist and present -- it's dramatic, stressed, important to the interpretation of the phrase.

It may be awhile until I can post again.  Tax season ends March 15 and now I'm swamped (my slow season was November December, now over).  So if you don't see me post back to you, that's why.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-1-  The double-definite-article usage is also for officialness.  It is frequently used in Chronicles and Kings to denote an absolute specific as distinguished from all others, most especially fixed calendar dates.  Hence Luke 1:26 tells you that Gabriel visited Mary in the month of ADAR, because it uses the double-article style.  So much for not knowing when Christ would be born (nine months later is Chislev, ties to Haggai 2).  Something of that same double-article officiousness is being used here, but there's no way I can think of to translate it.  It stresses that Christ is different from everyone else, and Official.  How to put that in English, I don't know!  Re monadic use of (nee: definite) article, see especially 2 Cor13:14, a succinct statement on Trinity which I WISH the Westminster Confession people would have just used, rather than their Hydra-headed definition.

-2-  The idea of being given God's own life is as old as mankind, even as the promise of that gift was given in Genesis 3:15ff.  So the idea morphed into all the world's faiths, hence polytheism and savior developed in many cultures.  It all is a response to the problem of Genesis 2:17, the doubled moth-tamuth, spiritual death giving rise to physical death.  So you can't trace the origin of the idea by dating an ancient religion, for whatever cultural faith you're looking at, its own faith is a morphing of something else.  Chicken and egg.

-3-  Tense switches are always important in Greek.  You can't read 1 John and "get" what he's doing, without tracking the tenses and the prepositions.  Here, the stress is on how the (constantive or culminative, probably constantive) aorist tenses RESULT in a permanent reality of having Eternal Life.  I don't know how to translate that stress.  It leaps out at you in the Greek.  Maybe my pastor has a way of translating it better, I've not looked at his translation of John 3:16 in a long time.  But he spent weeks going over the three Atticisms in the verse.  So I might revise this post later, when I've gotten that far in my own retranslation of 1 John from the Greek (an ongoing project for 2008).

-4-  Sometimes it takes the indicative, and when it does, the CERTAINTY is stressed.  I can't remember at the moment which verses, but I remember that there are some.  I'm typing this off the top of my head, sorry.

-5-  This is actually an intensive pronoun (not just "he" but "he himself", roughly equivalent to French "moi" or Spanish "si mismo"); but the Attic spheis got replaced with autos in koine Greek.  It's really important to notice when the INTENSIVE usage is being employed.  Usually the intensive meaning is embedded in Atticisms, since in Attic Greek autos was the intensive pronoun.


It's too hard to format stuff like this in a forum.  BBCode is buggy, makes it hard to read, goes wrong when you don't expect, server goes down and I maybe have to redo all the work again.  The HTML code doesn't work either, though enabled.  So I'll not do translation work here again.
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Last edited by brainout on Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:23 pm; edited 68 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Fathom, you can't translate "ton monogenE" as you have.  Never mind this is the Bible, the words have meaning which long predate the text.  The term is a compound of "monos", meaning "unique, one of a kind", and "genos", cognate noun from "gennaw", to SIRE.  So it solely means "uniquely-born".  Sadly "only begotten" was begotten in Christian literature (pun intended), so this misunderstanding has persisted down to this day.  Repeat a mixed-up translation long enough and it passes for truth, with everyone defending it; never mind, what the actual truth is.

Verse is a mix of Attic Greek.  I'll retranslate, with the Greek words in parenthesis so you can see what I'm translating.

"For (gar) God loved (hegapesen ho theos) the world (ton kosmon) SO MUCH (houtws) with the dramatic result that (hwste, Attic Greek) He gave up (edoken) His Uniquely-Born Son (ton as possessive, huion ton monogene, monadic definite article) with the final purposed result that (hina) all who believe (pas ho pisteuwn can be translated as a finite clause) in Him (eis means into but more often because of, but English "in" conveys both meanings) CANNOT perish (me apoletai -- the me+indicative denies even the IDEA of perishing being possible) but (alla) possesses (echo means to have, hold, grasp, posses) Life Eternal (technical term for God's Own Property of Life).


Okay so let's examine in detail your position by examining each word post by post:

1. houtos - an adverb referring to text which either preceded or succeeded text. It carries the following meanings:

a) In this way
b) After that
c) After this manner
d) Likewise

The word denotes a meaning which uses the previous text as a basis. You have used the word "For" as your interpretation, but that word does not accurately describe the meaning because it shows no indication of any reference to the previous text. If you would have used "For this reason" you would be far more accurate.

To justify the proper interpretation, we have no choice but to examine the previous text to see how it relates to John 3.16. So let's have a look:

3.14 - 15: And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, it is also necessary to lift up the son of man so that all who believe in him will not perish, but have eternal life.

Likewise, because the God so loved his creation, ....


Do you see this point?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your posited definition of houtws is wrong here because its ATTIC usage being employed in John 3:16.  I explained the usage in my post.  If you don't agree, fine:  my pastor explained it in detail, you can get it from him.  It modifies agape, and is NOT a "manner" but a DEGREE.  It's proleptic (out of order, first in sentence).

Both Thayer and Bauer Danker lexicons note that it's idiomatic even in koine to translate houtws as signifying degree/extent when a) it precedes the verb (gar being post-positive is treated as not invalidating that), and b) when coupled with hwste (the latter being Attic).  Several examples are given both inside and outside Bible in Bauer, Danker.  Thayer's lexicon you can get online somewhere, I heard.  Bauer, Danker lexicons are in many versions, but I know of none on the internet.  You'll have to check these yourself, I don't have time to deal with this further.  Again, my pastor taught from the Greek and Hebrew texts for over 53 years, and in the year 2000 spent several weeks on this, so if you want you can get the exegesis for free from his church, start with lesson #1890 of "Spiritual Dynamics" (series 376, I think), www.rbthieme.org.  You'll need a good 30 lessons, but the mp3 containing 1890 will probably have enough.

I got work to do.  It will be a long time before I come back here.  Enjoy!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it? Reply with quote

I consider John 3:16, 3:18, 3:36 as John's own views and words. Those are not the words of Jesus and one should not worry about Greek, the translations and the tenses.

Why did John write that way? John was directing that at Jews, who were already fiercely monotheistic, believed in God and righteousness or good works/deeds.

A new approach had to be tried to convince them about Jesus. He used the point which Jesus made about getting reborn. What Jesus meant by getting 'reborn' was that people should truly repent and turn to God, who would provide salvation.

BMZ
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Re: "Born-again", "Saved": what is it? Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Which sin was paid for on the cross?


No sin in particular. That is a post-Jesus doctrine, which even Jesus did not know and he never mentioned.

All_Brains wrote:
 And do I still go to heaven "be with God" if I sinned a great deal, but believed in JC?


No. Believeing in God would be a bet more safer instead of just relying on JC. Remember JC also cried out loud to God?

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