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Intellectual_fighter -vs-All_Brains

 
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Intellectual_fighter
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Intellectual_fighter -vs-All_Brains  Reply with quote

Hellow,

A_B,

Greetings.

I was away with some real stuff, and wasnt able to post/


Anywayz, I will continue from your last post.



Cheers.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Can you then explain why all Tafsir specialists, all translations and 99.9% of Muslims believe that the word "daraba" means to (hit/beat/strike/scourge)????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I will not accept your own personal endeavor, as it is not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Muslims and the entire scholars population.

Your effort is simply regarded as a poor attempt at apology.


A_B,

So, what is your stand! I mean that you will take the tafseers or translations those are well read and established!!!!!Others not?..Ok..If its like that then I will take your position. From whatever way you choose, I will be happy.  Smile

For my belief, I showed that there is no beating in that verse.


Do Clarify your position..

Take time for that If you want.






Cheers.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Intellectual_fighter -vs-All_Brains Reply with quote

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
Hellow,

A_B,

Greetings.

I was away with some real stuff, and wasnt able to post/


Anywayz, I will continue from your last post.



Cheers.


Ok...But please next time observe the etiquette of debates. Please let me know if you can't respond for over 3 days, as any debate requires a continuation of thoughts.

Welcome back!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
Quote:

Can you then explain why all Tafsir specialists, all translations and 99.9% of Muslims believe that the word "daraba" means to (hit/beat/strike/scourge)????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I will not accept your own personal endeavor, as it is not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Muslims and the entire scholars population.

Your effort is simply regarded as a poor attempt at apology.


A_B,

So, what is your stand! I mean that you will take the tafseers or translations those are well read and established!!!!!Others not?..Ok..If its like that then I will take your position. From whatever way you choose, I will be happy.  Smile

For my belief, I showed that there is no beating in that verse.


Do Clarify your position..

Take time for that If you want.

Cheers.


I don't need to take time on this, it's really quite simple!

I am a native Arabic Speaker and a Linguist. I happen to 100% agree with the straight forward translations, which happens to be 99.9% of the explanation as per the tafseer and Arabic Linguists gurus.

The reason why I wouldn't take the 00.01% of explanation is because it's wrong and it's a desperate attempt at hiding their apology regarding that embarrassing Islamic rule!!

One quick example....99.99% of people know that the earth is spheric, still to this date there are people who claims the earth to be flat for scriptural reasons!!!

Now, based on unbiased proved sources I know for a fact that the earth is spheric, so why would I:

1. Follow wrong doctrine.
2. Contradict 99.99% of the population who have compelling evidence.

It's simple I_F, the linguistics justifications you have provided are simply incorrect and almost all Muslim would disagree with you on the meaning your "good conscious" has chosen to adopt!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't need to take time on this, it's really quite simple!

Thatís  excellence   of you.

Quote:

I am a native Arabic Speaker and a Linguist. I happen to 100% agree with the straight forward translations, which happens to be 99.9% of the explanation as per the tafseer and Arabic Linguists gurus.


I donít see  that being and Egyptian  is a specialty. A lot native speakers have  some real problem with their native language. You have taken a degree in Arabic! Anywayz, this is irrelevant. II will go on.

Quote:

The reason why I wouldn't take the 00.01% of explanation is because it's wrong and it's a desperate attempt at hiding their apology regarding that embarrassing Islamic rule!!



Not a single Islamic rule is embarrassing to me. What I  have gone for there is pretty simple, there the code of translation hasnít been broken, This an important matter. But for some others this transltion brings no fruit as there is no beating and people will not be able to toy with that.


If you say beating and persist on that , then I will take your point as my point and then will continue.


Quote:

One quick example....99.99% of people know that the earth is spheric, still to this date there are people who claims the earth to be flat for scriptural reasons!!!

Now, based on unbiased proved sources I know for a fact that the earth is spheric, so why would I:

1. Follow wrong doctrine.
2. Contradict 99.99% of the population who have compelling evidence.



Regarding your opinion on that , let me tell you  that I believe that the DAHAHA means egg shaped thus we see the Glorious Quran being explicitly expressing the spherical shape of earth.

Here the case should be closed.

But , as there are other verses that says expanse , if you read the verses, you will see that those arenít talking about the cosmic shape of the Earth. So, to me those verse simply not dealing  with the shape of earth that we see from space.

Quote:

It's simple I_F, the linguistics justifications you have provided are simply incorrect and almost all Muslim would disagree with you on the meaning your "good conscious" has chosen to adopt!



A_B, let me tell you one thing that is I am also in the field of Linguistics and having a higher study on that. So  I feel linguistics is very  important in describing any certain fact. When we go for Linguistic analysis then we know that this has many things to do with discourse analysis which is concerned with the study of relationship between language and the context in which it is used. Now, when you go for analysis of a Quranic verse , you should take account of linguistics, semiotics, psychology( your sub), anthropology and sociology.  

This can be a huge explanation but to me an Arabic speaker doesnít come with any specialty regarding linguistic.

And followed the teachings of Muhammad(pbuh) , where he  denounces the beating of wives. If You take this and match that with the possible Quranic translation then we can come to the conclusion that 4.34 is actually not talking about beating.

But as a debater of this forum  and sitting opposite of you. I will certainly take your view on account.

I atfirst want to know your in details interpretation of the verses.  And I will continue from  your point and your accusations are welcomed because other wise I wont be able to show you the truth.



Best luck.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Intellectual_fighter"]

I donít see  that being and Egyptian  is a specialty. A lot native speakers have  some real problem with their native language. You have taken a degree in Arabic! Anywayz, this is irrelevant. II will go on.

[quote]

I have a BA in Linguistics specialising in Arabic, German and Spanish. Also, being a native Arabic speaker helps with expressions not know to learner of languages. I am afraid this is very relevant to the discussion, as we are arguing the meaning of words!

Quote:
Not a single Islamic rule is embarrassing to me. What I  have gone for there is pretty simple, there the code of translation hasnít been broken, This an important matter. But for some others this transltion brings no fruit as there is no beating and people will not be able to toy with that.


Please read your above sentence again and tell how does it refute the fact that 99.99% of Muslims and 100% of non-Muslims have translated beating as "hitting or striking"????
[quote]

Quote:
If you say beating and persist on that , then I will take your point as my point and then will continue.

Thank you for conceding a very clear case!
Quote:


Regarding your opinion on that , let me tell you  that I believe that the DAHAHA means egg shaped thus we see the Glorious Quran being explicitly expressing the spherical shape of earth.


This is a separate point altogether and may debate it with you later, however it shows me clearly that your Arabic is pretty weak as the word "Dahaha" does not mean egg shaped! It actually means "Flattened or spread"!!!

Quote:
Here the case should be closed.


So, in light of you conceding the point that beating means "hitting or striking", how can you explain your God's wisdom in imposing such sadistic, sexist and unfair rule????

Quote:
A_B, let me tell you one thing that is I am also in the field of Linguistics and having a higher study on that. So  I feel linguistics is very  important in describing any certain fact. When we go for Linguistic analysis then we know that this has many things to do with discourse analysis which is concerned with the study of relationship between language and the context in which it is used. Now, when you go for analysis of a Quranic verse , you should take account of linguistics, semiotics, psychology( your sub), anthropology and sociology.


I agree and that's what I have been doing all along! Can you please share with me which languages do you specialise in?

Quote:
This can be a huge explanation but to me an Arabic speaker doesnít come with any specialty regarding linguistic.


As I said before I am a native speaker as well as an Arabic Linguist, so your point is general observation which is not valid in my case.

Quote:
And followed the teachings of Muhammad(pbuh) , where he  denounces the beating of wives. If You take this and match that with the possible Quranic translation then we can come to the conclusion that 4.34 is actually not talking about beating.


So would you then acknowledge Muhammad's killing of the apostates as a rule, even though it's not mentioned in the Quran? Or do Muslims switch between the Quran and the hadith depending on what would win them the argument?

To finish this point of debate off and following you conceding this argument, please explain your God's wisdom behind such verses in light of the translation acknowledged by the overwhelming majority.

Thank you for taking the time to participate in this debate.


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