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ibnishaq

3 questions that could get me out of islam

hello you all i for the most part have been convinced that islam is nothing but made up religion but there are 3 issues in particular that i have questions about. some of them might sound really silly i am sorry about that. part of life is having inclinations to what may seem silly to others!

so here they are

1. numerical miracle? in the qu'ran if you look up the number of times month is said, it is 12. days in plural is 30. there are also some numerous repetitions like this world and hereafter.

do you think that is a miracle? if not could it be coincidence? or did someone put it in there? it would be complicated to put it in there!!

2. allah fish? this one is stupid but there have been some sightings of like wish with words "allah" and "muhammad" on it. is that miraculous or not?

3. his health - in general i just wonder why he had seizures and then came up with verses and such.

if these can be explained then maybe it will not be miraculous and maybe qu'ran is human written!
admin

Thanks Ibnishaq

Please stay tuned. I will be responding to you shortly.

Welcome to the forum!
All_Brains

My first post as All_Brains. Set up is now complete and we're in business.
Baal

Welcome Guys,

Hey Ishaq, for Question #2, considering the Bliions of fish, considering how the Arabic letters are so circular in a line, it would be a miracle if we find no fish with the allah and muhammad on them in nature.

Not to mention if you catch a bunch of small fish, and you use a Q-tip to write on them with sulphuric acid, then when the fish grows, it will have the writing on it. Kids used to play that game all the time in small lakes, writing on the fish: "No Eat Me" and "Put Me Back"

As for the other points, you know what i think and as for point #3, you know how broken and indefensible the evidence you brought forward is.
All_Brains

Baal wrote:
Welcome Guys,

Hey Ishaq, for Question #2, considering the Bliions of fish, considering how the Arabic letters are so circular in a line, it would be a miracle if we find no fish with the allah and muhammad on them in nature.

Not to mention if you catch a bunch of small fish, and you use a Q-tip to write on them with sulphuric acid, then when the fish grows, it will have the writing on it. Kids used to play that game all the time in small lakes, writing on the fish: "No Eat Me" and "Put Me Back"


Hello Baal

Thanks for the support mate, I really appreciate it. We all could use the wealth of knowledge you add to any discussion.
All_Brains

Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam

Quote:
[quote="ibnishaq"]hello you all i for the most part have been convinced that islam is nothing but made up religion but there are 3 issues in particular that i have questions about. some of them might sound really silly i am sorry about that. part of life is having inclinations to what may seem silly to others!


Hello Ibnishaq

There is no such thing as a silly question, only silly answers!

Quote:
1. numerical miracle? in the qu'ran if you look up the number of times month is said, it is 12. days in plural is 30. there are also some numerous repetitions like this world and hereafter.


Absolutely rubbish claims for the following reasons:

1. According to the Georgian (solar) Calender not every month consists of 30 days!

2. According to the Hijri (lunar) Calender, which Muslims should follow, the month can also be 29 days. The hijri year is 11 days shorter than the solar year.

3. If the Qur'an is authored by humans over a period of time, of course they will try to add some clever bits and pieces to be discovered over time. A bit like some of Leonardo Da Vinci's work.

4. I find it very difficult to understand God's insistence to communicate in riddles, so he could only be perceived by those who are inherently and genetically with above average IQ!

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do you think that is a miracle? if not could it be coincidence? or did someone put it in there? it would be complicated to put it in there!!


No, not a miracle. Some were put there on purpose and some just happen to be there and interpreted differently by those who always believed that "the truth is out there".

Quote:
2. allah fish? this one is stupid but there have been some sightings of like wish with words "allah" and "muhammad" on it. is that miraculous or not?


I believe Baal addressed this one nicely, but to add to his comments: almost the same thing happens in all religions, sighting of the virgin Mary in Egypt, which ended up killing few people under the feet of the desperate crowds!! This is a play on emotional and simple people who need to see to believe even more.

And by the way, if you stare enough on the clouds, you'd see all sort of things....Allah, Jesus, Freddy Kruger and a Thanksgiving turkey!

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3. his health - in general i just wonder why he had seizures and then came up with verses and such.


This has been explained few times already. Muhammad could have been epileptic who later on faked his seizures to achieve a dramatic effect on his audience in terms of receiving the revelations.

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if these can be explained then maybe it will not be miraculous and maybe Qu'ran is human written!


There's absolutely nothing miraculous about the above, it's just a load of con-artistry and ignorance.
ibnishaq

Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam

[quote="All_Brains"]
Quote:
ibnishaq wrote:
hello you all i for the most part have been convinced that islam is nothing but made up religion but there are 3 issues in particular that i have questions about. some of them might sound really silly i am sorry about that. part of life is having inclinations to what may seem silly to others!


Hello Ibnishaq

There is no such thing as a silly question, only silly answers!

interesting!

Quote:
1. numerical miracle? in the qu'ran if you look up the number of times month is said, it is 12. days in plural is 30. there are also some numerous repetitions like this world and hereafter.

Quote:

Absolutely rubbish claims for the following reasons:

1. According to the Georgian (solar) Calender not every month consists of 30 days!

2. According to the Hijri (lunar) Calender, which Muslims should follow, the month can also be 29 days. The hijri year is 11 days shorter than the solar year.

good point but for 7 months of islamic year it is still 30 days.
and also month is used 12 times exactly.
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3. If the Qur'an is authored by humans over a period of time, of course they will try to add some clever bits and pieces to be discovered over time. A bit like some of Leonardo Da Vinci's work.

but it was not authored over a long period of time. if it was, please shwo proof or give me your insight!
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4. I find it very difficult to understand God's insistence to communicate in riddles, so he could only be perceived by those who are inherently and genetically with above average IQ!

that is true!
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do you think that is a miracle? if not could it be coincidence? or did someone put it in there? it would be complicated to put it in there!!

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No, not a miracle. Some were put there on purpose and some just happen to be there and interpreted differently by those who always believed that "the truth is out there".

humm, possibly true; but why would a PERSON render it and not tell anyone?

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2. allah fish? this one is stupid but there have been some sightings of like wish with words "allah" and "muhammad" on it. is that miraculous or not?

Quote:

I believe Baal addressed this one nicely, but to add to his comments: almost the same thing happens in all religions, sighting of the virgin Mary in Egypt, which ended up killing few people under the feet of the desperate crowds!! This is a play on emotional and simple people who need to see to believe even more.

And by the way, if you stare enough on the clouds, you'd see all sort of things....Allah, Jesus, Freddy Kruger and a Thanksgiving turkey!

well yea but there was fish in UK that had allah on one side and muhammad on another. even the store owners that it was a miralce, search up walker aquatics and you will see!
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3. his health - in general i just wonder why he had seizures and then came up with verses and such.

Quote:

This has been explained few times already. Muhammad could have been epileptic who later on faked his seizures to achieve a dramatic effect on his audience in terms of receiving the revelations.

yeah that is true but why would he make it up if at first he really thought it was from god?
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if these can be explained then maybe it will not be miraculous and maybe Qu'ran is human written!

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There's absolutely nothing miraculous about the above, it's just a load of con-artistry and ignorance.

humm, you might be right! i am still debating Idea
All_Brains

Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam

Quote:
good point but for 7 months of islamic year it is still 30 days.
and also month is used 12 times exactly.


Then the miracle is invalid! Since the month being not always 30 days, the mentioning of the word "month" 30 times in the Quran is immaterial!

As for the year, I don't see any miracles here! The year was 12 months since my great grand parents "The Ancient Egyptians". The Author of the Quran merely did this on purpose and may be later pointed this out to wow the simple-minded people. The ancients were very big on words and numbers. The trick of numbers and play on words is way older than the Quran and was practiced in other cultures and societies too!

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but it was not authored over a long period of time. if it was, please shwo proof or give me your insight!


Yes, it did take long time for one book. We all know that the revelations took 23 years to be completed. That's work in progress for Muhammad and his mates to think everything through before the final release of the Surahs. Also, the Quran was not collected in one volume until the year 650, some 18 years after the death of Muhammad who died in the year 632. So all together we have 23+18= 41 years for one book to reach us in its current form. I think there's plenty of time for the authoring committee to come up with all sort of riddles, silly play on numbers and dark ages science!

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humm, possibly true; but why would a PERSON render it and not tell anyone?


Why? Religion and specially Islam is one of the most powerful tools for some people to use to rule over the masses. The fear of God, the punishment in hell, the Shariah laws and the Jizya. Religion is power!

To Muslims at that time it meant power, war booty, captured women and land. So the answer is (Greed).

[quote]well yea but there was fish in UK that had allah on one side and muhammad on another. even the store owners that it was a miralce, search up walker aquatics and you will see!
[quote]

Are you kidding me Ibnshaq! Here's the picture of that fish.



This can be anything! Christians too find baby Jesus face and the virgin Mary in South America quite a lot! This is ignorance.

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yeah that is true but why would he make it up if at first he really thought it was from god?


Muhammad did not know what the hell it was happening to him. His wife Khadijah and her cousin the blind priest, Warqa Ibn Nawfal convinced him that he was a prophet and he was seeing Gabriel. It's quite possible that Muhammad later on knew deep down that this was not the case, however liked the prospect of being the last prophet with access to booty, women and land.
All_Brains

Quote:
but does that not look like muhammad in arabic?



Muhammad is made out of 4 Arabic letters as follows:

Mim
Haa (throaty)
Mim
Dal

Now I accept that the fish carries some resemblance to the first two letters above, but for the second "Mim", the circle should be below the line and not above it as in the picture and the "dal" is nothing like how it should be written. Here is Muhammad in Arabic for you. Judge for yourself!


محمد

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humm that could be true i suppose. but how did he know the verses right after he had seizures?



As I said before, the verses were prepared earlier. The seizures could have been introduced to show the simple Bedouins that God was actually communicating with him.

And to be honest with you, if mouth foaming, spitting, sweating, going red and blue are signs of God communicating with human, then it's really fishy! You'd think if God decided to communicate with you and you know that, you'd have nothing but tranquility and inner-peace!
ibnishaq

humm i made a response but i guess i did not click submit earlier. i thought i did!

anyways but i did have one question

you mentioned that in the culture people tried to make miracle number tricks. was that prominent during muhammad's time? do you have and proof?

if it was then it is no miracle as that was social norm
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
humm i made a response but i guess i did not click submit earlier. i thought i did!

anyways but i did have one question

you mentioned that in the culture people tried to make miracle number tricks. was that prominent during muhammad's time? do you have and proof?

if it was then it is no miracle as that was social norm


That's strange.

The below link and article will shed some light on this matter. By the way claiming numerical miracles is not unique to Islam, Christianity and Judaism claim very similar self proclaimed victories!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

Numerical Miracles

Like the argument from science, some contemporary Muslims have tried to find “numerical features” (i.e. numerology) in the Koran that supposedly prove its Divine origin. These numerical features have to do with the number 19 being found over and over again (i.e. the number of words in a phrase, the number of times a noun is found, etc.).

However, when examined carefully, the method that is used by the people who make this argument is very selective. Gerhard Nehls points out these inconsistencies:

“How impressive in fact are these findings? We realize firstly that the method is based on manipulation. If we used a critical method of programming, our results would be average because we would reduce the combinations in our system that show evidence of 19. We note that Dr. Khalifa (and Mr. Deedat p. 67-68 ) has tried his best to improve his results by stating for example that in all Suras with the initials ALM at the top, the respective letters in the three Suras combined add up to a figure that is divisible by 19. In his case the sum of all A’s and L’s and M’s in Suras 2,3,7,13,29-32 add up to 26676, which is equal to 19 x 1404. In order to make this total divisible by 19, he had to leave the initials out in the case of Sura 7. The reason is that this Sura has the initials ALMS, which disqualifies it from being included, because it is not a Sura with the initials ALM. So in order to produce a number divisible by 19, he included Sura 7 but excluded the 98 S’s. The same applies to the use of Sura 13 (ALMR) in this context. The same type of manipulation was used in the set of Suras 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 which begin with the initials ALR (except 13 which has the initials ALMR). Adding up all the ALR’s of these six Suras, Dr. Khalifa arrives at the sum of 9709 (= 19 x 511) but my computer shows that the sum is 10813 which is not divisible by 19. Dr. Khalifa arrived at this figure by adding all the letters indicated by the initials ALR of these Suras excepting Sura 13 (which begins with ALMR) and adds from this Sura only the figure 137, i.e. the number of times the initial R occurs, conveniently leaving out the A’s and L’s for otherwise the sum (10813) would not be divisible by 19, as we have shown. He does not expect his readers to check on his data, and perhaps we are the first to do so. It is so much easier simply to be impressed by the “divine” touch and to be strengthened in faith by a manipulation which is needed as a crutch to support a religion without other evidence. Other manipulations can be seen in Sura 42. Here the sum of all the letters as represented in the initials HMASQ is 570 or 19 x 30, but it is divided into 361 + 209 to fit the first sum into the total of all HM’s. In order to increase his successes, Dr Khalifa gives the final figure for Sura 68 as 152, which is already reflected in the vertical column of the letter N and is therefore a duplication.”

-Gerhard Nehls, Answering-Islam, The Mysterious Nineteen in the Qur’an

www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/number19.html

The list of manipulations and inconsistencies goes on.

Second, many Christians have tried to find such things in the Bible. Gerhard Nehls, likewise, notes these features:

“The verse consists of 7 Hebrew words and 28 letters (7 x 4). There are three nouns: ‘God, heavens, earth.’ Their total numeric value (Hebrew has no numbers but these are represented by letters: the sum of the number letters being the numeric value) is 777 (7 x 111). The verb ‘created’ has the value 203 (7 x 29). The object is contained in the first three words - with 14 letters (7 x 2). The other four words contain the subject - also with 14 letters (7 x 2). The Hebrew words for the two objects – “the heavens and the earth” - each have seven letters.

The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters. The value of the first, middle and last letters in the verb ‘created’ is 133 (7 x 19) the numeric value of the first and last letters of all the words is 1393 (7 x 199) and the value of the first and last letters of the verse is 497 (7 x 71). The Hebrew particle ‘eth’ with the article ‘the’, used twice, has the value 407 (7 x 58 ) and the last letters of the first and last words equal 490 (7 x 70).

In all, there are over 30 different numberic features related to 7 in this verse. The odds against the above features occurring by chance are 33 Trillions:1.”

-Gerhard Nehls, Answering-Islam, The Mysterious Nineteen in the Qur’an

www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/number19.html

Thus, the very book which Muslims believe to be corrupted (because the Koran contradicts it in every way known to man), has the exact same kind of numerical “miracle” that the Koran has!

Of course, this means absolutely nothing. One could pick up any book from a bookstore and find all sorts of codes and numerological patterns in it. I once read a book on Bible codes (i.e. letters from the original manuscripts that were equal-spaced so as to form phrases or messages that tell of events in modern times) that had the same kind of argument in it (i.e. that the Bible must be of Divine origin because of these codes), and the odds that were given in the book were trillions and trillions to one that these codes were in there by chance. Then, I read a critique of the Bible codes, and found that the novel, Moby Dick, had the same sort of code patterns in it as the Bible! This type of thing has also been found in the U.S. Constitution and Tolstoy’s War and Peace. Does that mean that these works are Divine? Obviously not.
All_Brains

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i know that the number 19 issue is not a miracle. i never thought it was because it is manipulated.

but the repetition of words does seem amazing like

days 30
month 12
this world 115
the hereafter 115
angels - 77
shaytan - 77

etc etc. i have found no such in bible and have looked time after time



Dear oh dear...and what's amazing about 77 angels and 77 demons?
Have you ever seen one of these before?

If you're familiar with the work of the "mortal human" Leonardo Da Vinci, he's left even more clever clues behind his work that are still being discovered today.

How difficult is it for the above to be achieved by humans who had 41 years to write a book???

Your definition of miracle is pretty low-standard! My definition would surely have a criteria of "can't by achieved by human", I look at the above and I see a very primitive attempt at playing the "number" game.

Way better conspiracy theories and games have been unfolding for the past 50 years, some are funny like the 9/11 ones and some are clever like the Dan Brown, Da Vinci Code. He got this spot on though, "so dark is the con of man"!
All_Brains

Sorry Ibnishaq

I have deleted your post in error, but had a copy of it in my response. I have removed the moderating rights from my ID to avoid such incident in the future.

Please accept my apologies!
ibnishaq

so you think that people wanted to add it to the qu'ran so they did? or you thin kit is just perhaps coincidental?
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
so you think that people wanted to add it to the qu'ran so they did? or you thin kit is just perhaps coincidental?


Since the claims are too may, I think some were put in there deliberately and some just happen to be there and were interpreted later on by "hopefuls and manipulators" to give a certain indication. Just like number 19 and the fish.

Also, Ibnishaq I see you only addressing the supernatural aspect of verifying the truthfulness of religions. It's one way, but not the only way.

For example you are yet to address any moral issues in the last message of God to humanity!

Do you think it's right to kill apostates, adulterers, chop off the hands of thieves and lashing people for drinking alcohol?
ibnishaq

all in all i have counted about 35 words that have repetitions of similar(at least that is how many claimed.)
35*2(since their opposite)=70 words

i would have a higher number like 50, but i see that some are hoaxes.

now was it normal for them to do such at that time? to make numerical amazements?
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
all in all i have counted about 35 words that have repetitions of similar(at least that is how many claimed.)
35*2(since their opposite)=70 words

i would have a higher number like 50, but i see that some are hoaxes.

now was it normal for them to do such at that time? to make numerical amazements?


First of all I still differ with you regarding the amazement of these mediocre attempts. I don't see anything amazing about repeating "month" 30 times, however some month could be 28 day like Feb, or 29 days according to the Hijri calender. I would rather call them blunders, not miracles.

Secondly, the Bedouin Arabs around the time excelled only in one thing, which they have left us today, (Poetry) and nothing else.

No medicine, not art, no constructions, math, physics or biology....only words they're good at...putting words together, competing amongst themselves on who makes the most beautiful and most clever of word structure. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they came up with these obvious attempts to show that the Qur'an is divine.

At the end of the day, if there is a book that came down to us which shows how to split the atom, the movement of all celestial bodies and the way evolution works, but on the other hand asks us to commit atrocities, kill people and treat women, homo-sexual and non-followers like shit.

Would you still think that this book is divine?
ibnishaq

no, i do not like book that degrades homosexuals and women and permits marriage of children. not at all!

at the same time tho it does not necessarily disprove god.

being bi and muslim is the hardest thing one can go through no doubt. and it would be a shame that god would create gays and lesbians and then expect us to be straight and marry. no doubt!

but ultimetely what it comes down to is is the quran from god or not? and really and truly unfortunetely a mean god does not disprove a god which is why we should look into other ways to disprove a god!

which is why i like to see errors in the qu'ran but i have not found many yet. but then i see these "numerical miracles" and they make me wonder. like i mean i just dont know how people could do that and get away with it you know?

and then there is the TERRIBLE fear of hell. like what if a god did exist and i was in hell burning my whole eternal! it would be terrible no doubt

really fear is what keeps me. it is why i desperately want errors to be found in the qu'ran. but then there is the numerical thing which i just do not understand how a human could put it in! i mean think about it what did he use to count the number of times? and i have not seen anything like that in other pre islamic poetry.

[/end rant mode!]
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
no, i do not like book that degrades homosexuals and women and permits marriage of children. not at all!

at the same time tho it does not necessarily disprove god.

being bi and muslim is the hardest thing one can go through no doubt. and it would be a shame that god would create gays and lesbians and then expect us to be straight and marry. no doubt!

but ultimetely what it comes down to is is the quran from god or not? and really and truly unfortunetely a mean god does not disprove a god which is why we should look into other ways to disprove a god!

which is why i like to see errors in the qu'ran but i have not found many yet. but then i see these "numerical miracles" and they make me wonder. like i mean i just dont know how people could do that and get away with it you know?

and then there is the TERRIBLE fear of hell. like what if a god did exist and i was in hell burning my whole eternal! it would be terrible no doubt

really fear is what keeps me. it is why i desperately want errors to be found in the qu'ran. but then there is the numerical thing which i just do not understand how a human could put it in! i mean think about it what did he use to count the number of times? and i have not seen anything like that in other pre islamic poetry.

[/end rant mode!]


I know how you feel. I have been there myself!

Fear is a horrible thing and I am afraid it has been used from the beginning of time, by God, the village chief, the president, your teacher, your father, your boss, your partner...etc

Thank you for inspiring me to alter the name of this forum and add "fear" to "ignorance" as our biggest chains!

I will be away for few hours and will be back to address your concern properly.
ibnishaq

ok, i am looking forward to seeing your response!
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
ok, i am looking forward to seeing your response!


Cheers Shaq! I am helping my wife with some serious gardening at the moment. I have 20 min lunch break.

I will take to you again later this evening.
ibnishaq

sounds great Smile
Baal

Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam

ibnishaq wrote:
well yea but there was fish in UK that had allah on one side and muhammad on another. even the store owners that it was a miralce, search up walker aquatics and you will see!

* I said, out of Billions of fish you will find fish with Muhammad AND Allah on it.
* The UK fish is crap, it looks like Mu Ha ... ... or Mu Kha ... ...
* I am sure there is fish out there with a better representation of the Two words.
* Of course the store owners will cry miracle. It is their fish.
Baal

All_Brains wrote:
Sorry Ibnishaq

I have deleted your post in error, but had a copy of it in my response. I have removed the moderating rights from my ID to avoid such incident in the future.

Please accept my apologies!

Sorry Humans, this is me, God, I wiped out the 8th Continent in error. I apologize, I have removed the power to interfere in human lives to avoid such incident in the future.
brainout

When I first knew I believed in Christ, I soon thereafter met someone and we began dating. Late one night while looking up at the night sky on campus in college, I could swear to this day I saw the sign of the Cross in the moon.

Days later I dismissed it as either a trick of atmosphere, or as my hallucination, and my date did too. Then it later dawned on me that if I needed demonstration of a miracle to believe in God, then it wasn't God I wanted, but the miracle. Kinda like marrying a person for money or looks, if we go for God ideas based on miracles or attractiveness, don't we lie to ourselves about our real motive?
brainout

Here's another angle on miracles: even if you presume miracle, WHO did it? Surely a superhuman being who is AGAINST God can do miracles by our standards, as well. Millions of people throughout history claim to have seen the sun go around backwards, a statue cry, and here in Chicago not long ago thousands of people actually slid down a slope along a busy highway to look at a salt-stained underpass girder they claimed was "an appearance of the Virgin Mary." Not long before that, a Spanish woman in Texas claimed to see the Virgin Mary in a cooking tortilla, and they even made a shrine of the (now quite mouldy) tortilla.

So WHO do you think made them think those things as signs of God? Pretty silly, right? Should God prove His Existence in a silly way? Isn't it a silly way of proving Divine Existence, to have the Arabic word for "month" appear 12 times in a book claimed to be holy? Is THAT how one ought to evaluate whether something is from God?

I vote NO.
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
no, i do not like book that degrades homosexuals and women and permits marriage of children. not at all!


Then Islam is not for you!

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at the same time tho it does not necessarily disprove god.


So what would be the difference between the good God and evil Satan?

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being bi and muslim is the hardest thing one can go through no doubt. and it would be a shame that god would create gays and lesbians and then expect us to be straight and marry. no doubt!


Most religions have the same dilemma based on ancients beliefs. It's still a long way for humanity to fully understand other sexual orientations and the super religions are not helping!

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but ultimetely what it comes down to is is the quran from god or not?


No, it's not and Allah does not exist. I am sure of this!

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and really and truly unfortunetely a mean god does not disprove a god which is why we should look into other ways to disprove a god!


Well, at least it proves this one "Allah". Otherwise anyone can start religion, issue nonsensical, evil and mean rules, then use people fears to recruit and retain as many numbers as possible!

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which is why i like to see errors in the qu'ran but i have not found many yet.


Ah, man. They are many. I will be displaying all of them as we go along.

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but then i see these "numerical miracles" and they make me wonder. like i mean i just dont know how people could do that and get away with it you know?


I think we have put the "numerical" to bed by now, as I have clearly shown you how invalid they are and also what a silly and childish way to show the divinity of an all-wise God!

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and then there is the TERRIBLE fear of hell. like what if a god did exist and i was in hell burning my whole eternal! it would be terrible no doubt really fear is what keeps me.


Now we are talking baby! FEAR....I have added to the forum title as promised, again thanks for the inspiration!

Fear is probably one of the strongest influences in our lives and over our decision making ability. Fear is one of several very basic emotions (e.g., joy and anger). Fear is a survival mechanism, and usually occurs in response to a specific negative stimulus.

If there is God, we should be able to choose to believe in him "out of love and respect" and not fear and tyranny! Otherwise, this God is nothing but a bully!

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it is why i desperately want errors to be found in the qu'ran. but then there is the numerical thing which i just do not understand how a human could put it in! i mean think about it what did he use to count the number of times? and i have not seen anything like that in other pre islamic poetry.


As I said before, it did take me about 3 years to leave Islam. These things take time, as you have to face your fears of hell, family, friends, tradition, being killed or punished by other Muslims and the list goes on...

Some people just don't bother. They leave Islam, but continue to be Muslims in front of everyone!

I don't know what kind of person are you yet, but happy the tag along the journey with you. Remember, it's your journey though and you're the one who has to make the decisions!
All_Brains

Baal wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Sorry Ibnishaq

I have deleted your post in error, but had a copy of it in my response. I have removed the moderating rights from my ID to avoid such incident in the future.

Please accept my apologies!

Sorry Humans, this is me, God, I wiped out the 8th Continent in error. I apologize, I have removed the power to interfere in human lives to avoid such incident in the future.


Good one! Laughing
All_Brains

brainout wrote:
When I first knew I believed in Christ, I soon thereafter met someone and we began dating. Late one night while looking up at the night sky on campus in college, I could swear to this day I saw the sign of the Cross in the moon.

Days later I dismissed it as either a trick of atmosphere, or as my hallucination, and my date did too. Then it later dawned on me that if I needed demonstration of a miracle to believe in God, then it wasn't God I wanted, but the miracle. Kinda like marrying a person for money or looks, if we go for God ideas based on miracles or attractiveness, don't we lie to ourselves about our real motive?


I too demand miracles, but not for the miracles sake!

I actually genuinely want to know if that "oddly" absent God actually exists!

It seems odd that during man's existence (around 500,000 years) and 150,000 of civilised existence , God for some strange reason decided to send all his prophets within a span of only 5000 years and never to send any again! Even if humanity lasts another 500,000 years.

Now, would today's religions suit those who live in the year 5060???

The concentration of time also was combined by the a focus on one geographical area. The Middle East? Funny enough, this are never saw peace, despite the fact it was blessed by hundreds of prophets!?
All_Brains

brainout wrote:
Here's another angle on miracles: even if you presume miracle, WHO did it? Surely a superhuman being who is AGAINST God can do miracles by our standards, as well. Millions of people throughout history claim to have seen the sun go around backwards, a statue cry, and here in Chicago not long ago thousands of people actually slid down a slope along a busy highway to look at a salt-stained underpass girder they claimed was "an appearance of the Virgin Mary." Not long before that, a Spanish woman in Texas claimed to see the Virgin Mary in a cooking tortilla, and they even made a shrine of the (now quite mouldy) tortilla.

So WHO do you think made them think those things as signs of God? Pretty silly, right? Should God prove His Existence in a silly way? Isn't it a silly way of proving Divine Existence, to have the Arabic word for "month" appear 12 times in a book claimed to be holy? Is THAT how one ought to evaluate whether something is from God?

I vote NO.


Miracles are usually fake orchestrated by con-artists to promote a certain agenda, or people suffer from a mental &/or psychological illness.

It's also very possible that the miracles in most holy books are just fairy tales taken from one culture to another and get tweaked over time to suit a certain purpose. A kind of folklore really!
ygalg

hi there.

the jewish calendar not always contain 12 months a year. there is a period where there is 13 months. it's called a leap year.

for religion precedes Islam, should not that miracle be as well in judaism?

not everyone use same calendar. Islamic has it's own unique calendar.
All_Brains

ygalg wrote:
hi there.

the jewish calendar not always contain 12 months a year. there is a period where there is 13 months. it's called a leap year.

for religion precedes Islam, should not that miracle be as well in judaism?

not everyone use same calendar. Islamic has it's own unique calendar.


Shalom Ya Sahbi!

Good to see Ygalg and thanks for joining out little forum!Very Happy

Good point! The calender and the calculation of time differs from a nation to another, solar calender, lunar calender and so forth.

It amazes me though that Islam could not even get its own calender right and mentioned month 30 times, whilst some Hijri months are only 29 days!!!

Of course Muslims shot themselves in the foot by declaring this as a numerical miracle in the first, as if it was left alone, none would have seen this as a blunder!
ibnishaq

k here is deal so far


1 allah fish - i do not find that amazing anymore. no longer a miracle to me. thanks you guys for giving me your thoughts.

2. psychology of muhammad - in limbo about it. perhaps he did have diesease and later made it up. that could be true. i am still debating. sometimes i wonder about those seizures and how he would be covered up and such. but then again there are only 6 or 7 hadiths on this and so i do not know. you guys bring up good arguments Smile

3. number - ok the similar repetition of words (like angel and devil) is probably just made up. there are many ways you can say a word in arabic, and many times the people who make up the miracle will add and subtract parts. really and truly i do not see that as a miracle. looking at how they count the words most have fishy background. but i do wonder why the hebrew bible does not have similar if the qu'ran does.

what does still amaze me though is how month is used 12 times and days 30 times. i just do not know how someone could put that in there. and yes i know, sometimes there are 29 days in islamic month but 7 out of 12 it is 30. so i dont know!
brainout

All Brains wrote: "If there is God, we should be able to choose to believe in him "out of love and respect" and not fear and tyranny! Otherwise, this God is nothing but a bully!"

If you'll forgive the trite expression, "Amen!" To know God and be with God is heaven, whoever "God" turns out to be. And if God exists, He will answer anyone who asks, "which God ARE you?"

It's terribly confusing, all these competing definitions of "God" out there. Either the atheist is right and we're all just super animals who die and go into the ground, or there's a real Loving God 'out there' in some PROVABLE definition.

And if there is, and I don't want that "God", then there would have to be a place where "God" is not. On the other hand, this "God" would NOT want me going to that other place. It would be a waste of time for Him to make me, else.

Confession time: when I believed as a freshman in college over 30 years ago, my motive was to be with "God", not to avoid hell. To me true hell is to not know and not be with "God". I'm not denying hell exists, but like miracles and emotionality of religion, to me avoiding hell is not sufficient reason to believe in God. Then fear-of-hell is the god I believe in, not the Person of "God".

A real "God" would not try to scare me into believing in Him. That there would be a hell would have to be a necessary alternative for rejectors, since to me a real "God" would author FREEDOM that never ends.

Dunno if this post helps. If you think it doesn't, then I'll amend or delete the post. I'm trying to avoid mentioning any particular definition of "God" here, but keep to the general principle of establishing whether a particular faith's idea of God makes sense or not.
Baal

By the way, I read somewhere that you are Albanian. The last Egyptian kings following Muhamad Ali were Albanian. In 1400yrs, with the exception of Ahmed bin Kawlun & the Albanians, all other kings and Khalifas were garbage. They caused nothing but destruction and strife in Egypt.

They were good at building big houses for themselves and big mosques, so they can punish the guilty from and collect taxes.

No Schools, no Hospitals. Millions upon Millions died under their rule and in 1000yrs the population retreated from 14 Million people to 2.5 Million. It is sad that, the Albanians were good to Egypt after centuries of misery, yet now, Albania is the cesspool of Europe, soon to be joined by Bosnia and Kosovo.
All_Brains

Quote:
Dunno if this post helps. If you think it doesn't, then I'll amend or delete the post. I'm trying to avoid mentioning any particular definition of "God" here, but keep to the general principle of establishing whether a particular faith's idea of God makes sense or not.


You sir can say whatever you want, you're quite a gentleman and a good human. Your thoughts are always great to hear! Smile
All_Brains

Baal wrote:
By the way, I read somewhere that you are Albanian. The last Egyptian kings following Muhamad Ali were Albanian. In 1400yrs, with the exception of Ahmed bin Kawlun & the Albanians, all other kings and Khalifas were garbage. They caused nothing but destruction and strife in Egypt.

They were good at building big houses for themselves and big mosques, so they can punish the guilty from and collect taxes.

No Schools, no Hospitals. Millions upon Millions died under their rule and in 1000yrs the population retreated from 14 Million people to 2.5 Million. It is sad that, the Albanians were good to Egypt after centuries of misery, yet now, Albania is the cesspool of Europe, soon to be joined by Bosnia and Kosovo.


I believe Muhammad Ali himself is Albanian-Macedonian!
Baal

All_Brains wrote:
Baal wrote:
By the way, I read somewhere that you are Albanian. The last Egyptian kings following Muhamad Ali were Albanian. In 1400yrs, with the exception of Ahmed bin Kawlun & the Albanians, all other kings and Khalifas were garbage. They caused nothing but destruction and strife in Egypt.

They were good at building big houses for themselves and big mosques, so they can punish the guilty from and collect taxes.

No Schools, no Hospitals. Millions upon Millions died under their rule and in 1000yrs the population retreated from 14 Million people to 2.5 Million. It is sad that, the Albanians were good to Egypt after centuries of misery, yet now, Albania is the cesspool of Europe, soon to be joined by Bosnia and Kosovo.


I believe Muhammad Ali himself is Albanian-Macedonian!

Yes, the following king all the way to the last king of Egypt are his descendants.
brainout

What ought to be the three questions which make a person leave a faith, whether Islam or any other? Thinking out loud (reserving the right to change my mind), I come up with these three:

1. The Character of the "God" depicted is unfair, silly, capricious, ungodlike, in its holy books. For "God" would have to be "Infinite" by definition, and it's not Infinity if not Love. Else being "God" would be a torture beyond comprehension, and everyone (including God) would be destroyed, by now. (Of course, that favors a conclusion that there is no God, too.)

In other words, I'd not listen to what people SAY about the holy book, I'd examine it on its own terms. Like All-Brains said, people use religion for power. Religion to me is a satanic thing in any 'flavor' and has aught to do with "God".

2. The creation of the "God" depicted is treated as pets, slaves, automatons or other hapless toy. A real God wouldn't get any enjoyment out of such creation, so a book depicting his creation in that manner can't be written through/by/ "God". Even we can't long bear babyish or stupid people in companionship.

3. The end result of all the evil in the world existing for millennia had better demonstrate a purpose which makes 100% good on it. For after all, "God" would have to put up with it all forever, if "God" is omniscient. So if some holy book doesn't show how all that suffering is made-good-on, then that book doesn't come from "God".

Of course, one could argue that no holy book ever written meets all those three tests. Smile Obviously I think Bible does, but that's only my opinion, and is subject to change at any moment, if I find it wrong.

Seems to me that if one respects the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, or whatever other holy book, these three criteria would be useful? Again, just thinking out loud.
admin

brainout wrote:
What ought to be the three questions which make a person leave a faith, whether Islam or any other? Thinking out loud (reserving the right to change my mind), I come up with these three:

1. The Character of the "God" depicted is unfair, silly, capricious, ungodlike, in its holy books. For "God" would have to be "Infinite" by definition, and it's not Infinity if not Love. Else being "God" would be a torture beyond comprehension, and everyone (including God) would be destroyed, by now. (Of course, that favors a conclusion that there is no God, too.)

In other words, I'd not listen to what people SAY about the holy book, I'd examine it on its own terms. Like All-Brains said, people use religion for power. Religion to me is a satanic thing in any 'flavor' and has aught to do with "God".

2. The creation of the "God" depicted is treated as pets, slaves, automatons or other hapless toy. A real God wouldn't get any enjoyment out of such creation, so a book depicting his creation in that manner can't be written through/by/ "God". Even we can't long bear babyish or stupid people in companionship.

3. The end result of all the evil in the world existing for millennia had better demonstrate a purpose which makes 100% good on it. For after all, "God" would have to put up with it all forever, if "God" is omniscient. So if some holy book doesn't show how all that suffering is made-good-on, then that book doesn't come from "God".

Of course, one could argue that no holy book ever written meets all those three tests. Smile Obviously I think Bible does, but that's only my opinion, and is subject to change at any moment, if I find it wrong.

Seems to me that if one respects the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, or whatever other holy book, these three criteria would be useful? Again, just thinking out loud.


Hopefully you don't mind, as I have moved this post to start a new thread in the religion section. I thought this was too good to be just a side topic in this Islamic topic.
brainout

Thanks. I hope it helps. Seems to me that if God exists, He'd want us to USE our brains, puny though they might be.
All_Brains

brainout wrote:
Thanks. I hope it helps. Seems to me that if God exists, He'd want us to USE our brains, puny though they might be.


To me the brain is the one and only prophet has ever been sent to us!
brainout

This is your brain on religion: Shocked
This is your brain on thinking about God or any other RELATIONSHIP question: Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad Laughing Surprised Confused Mad Wink Question Idea
ibnishaq

what you all think about the fact that days is used 30 times in al qu'ran and month is used 12 times? does that not seem amazing to you?

some say it was added in but i doubt that could happen non muslim scholars like kristina nelson agree that qu'ran today is qu'ran back then read her book "art of reciting the qu'ran" it is really a very good book to read all should read it.
ibnishaq

baal tell me about egypts history when you have time!
brainout

Anyone who is interested in the 'miracle' angle should go to youtube.com and type in "Virgin Mary miracle" or "Allah miracle" and see how many videos you get all claiming one miracle or another.

After watching a few of them I told myself I didn't want miracles from God. I wanted JUST HIM. Breathing has no meaning if it's not to know Him, that's how I feel about it.

Miracles are substitutes for Him. I don't want substitutes.
ibnishaq

but i am not speaking of miracles like that. i am speaking about miracles in the book(quran) not miracles like lady of fatimah/guadalupe, toast, etc
brainout

It's all the same class of miracles. Bible has so many miracles of words it's unbelievable. Should I believe in God due to that? "Miracle" is knowing God. Everything else is minor. If I believe in a holy book because of the number of times it says something that's related to the name of the thing -- well, I think you get my point.

God is more than a circus clown. We don't need Him doing tricks.

But, if you want numerical miracles, check this out, how God ORCHESTRATED TIME BASED ON THE JEWS since Adam. Just used the Bible's own dates and you see every 490 years something significant, since Adam.

Here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/GeneYrs.xls.

Like, 490 years after Joseph was enslaved, the Exodus happened. 490 years after Adam had his kid, Jared had his. 490 years after Noah had his kid, Abraham's kid was born. And on and on. Real history tied to real Bible with a number sequence that will be provable and blow you away. You want numbers? Try those!
ibnishaq

i tried but it said broken link. Sad
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
what you all think about the fact that days is used 30 times in al qu'ran and month is used 12 times? does that not seem amazing to you?

some say it was added in but i doubt that could happen non muslim scholars like kristina nelson agree that qu'ran today is qu'ran back then read her book "art of reciting the qu'ran" it is really a very good book to read all should read it.


Shaq

You really are so fascinated by the number games in Quran. Look I hate to brag, but I am a member of MENSA where I live and I am friend with many of the members there. Some of them with 190+ IQ and are Mathematicians. The stuff they come up with will make you open your mouth in amazement, the stuff you refer to would have been a piece of cake for them when they're about 6 years old!

Shaq, humans are a lot more capable to produce better numerical clues that what's in the Quran.
brainout

no, it doesn't seem amazing to me. What's amazing, is how God orchestrates time. What's amazing, is how the Bible reads in every word of it, pure Character of God shining through. What's amazing to me, is how God thinks.

to have "month" appear 12 times in a book is either a coincidence, or a cheap attempt at playing god by some human or even a bored demon.

Sorry, God is Infinite and pet tricks don't impress him. I don't mean to be so blunt, but think: SHOULD you be impressed by such a parlor trick? Wouldn't God do bigger stuff, than that?
ibnishaq

All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
what you all think about the fact that days is used 30 times in al qu'ran and month is used 12 times? does that not seem amazing to you?

some say it was added in but i doubt that could happen non muslim scholars like kristina nelson agree that qu'ran today is qu'ran back then read her book "art of reciting the qu'ran" it is really a very good book to read all should read it.


Shaq

You really are so fascinated by the number games in Quran. Look I hate to brag, but I am a member of MENSA where I live and I am friend with many of the members there. Some of them with 190+ IQ and are Mathematicians. The stuff they come up with will make you open your mouth in amazement, the stuff you refer to would have been a piece of cake for them when they're about 6 years old!

Shaq, humans are a lot more capable to produce better numerical clues that what's in the Quran.

humm interesting i guess i think it is amazing because i do see examples of it today or before. if it was the norm at that time then i would understand and it would like ok! so idk,
brainout

Added point for your consideration, Mr. Shaq -- what if the Koran DID NOT have that "month" 12 times in it? You know, every monthly calendar you can buy will have the word "month" in it 12 times.

But what if Koran did NOT have it? Would the Koran be less a miracle? I think not. I would never conclude the Koran Divine or unholy based on whether a certain word occurred as many times as the meaning of the word. That tells Allah I don't care about WHAT HE SAYS, but only whether He thrills me. As if the words themselves didn't bear Divine Authorship, and he had to resort to some trick to convince me?

Allah doesn't sell us short. We shouldn't sell him short, either. If God wrote the Koran, EVERY WORD IN IT will be like a reflection of His Perfect Character. And if not, well -- then any fancy appearances of numbers would have been authored by Iblis or a clever human, huh...
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
humm interesting i guess i think it is amazing because i do see examples of it today or before. if it was the norm at that time then i would understand and it would like ok! so idk,


You wanted to know from Baal a little about Egypt! Well, I am half Egyptian and worked for the first couple of years in my career in Egypt as a Tour Guide, because of the languages I can speak.

Thousands of years before Islam the ancient Egyptians were advanced in Medicine, Math, Geometry, Engineering, Construction, Agriculture, Music, Sports, philosophy and religion.

Some of the mathematical genius of these guys still to do this amaze scientists, including Stephen Hawking! Judging by your logic, Amon Ra must me the one true God then!

I think it's time to give humanity some credit. We have done a lot to be ashamed of, but we have also done so many to be proud of....
ibnishaq

humm very interesting thanks all!

one more question though

why are so many people converting to islam? there is islamic/arabic studies at my university and many of the white non muslim people who take the class come out muslim one person is even moving to egypt. why is that?
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
humm very interesting thanks all!

one more question though

why are so many people converting to islam? there is islamic/arabic studies at my university and many of the white non muslim people who take the class come out muslim one person is even moving to egypt. why is that?


That's an easy one shaq!

because they want to....Also many convert to Christianity and many many leave religion all together, like myself. Some people have their own set of ethics and the may find a religion that fulfill their desire...

Example....A rich Saudi man who likes to take many wives and right hand possessions would find Islam very convincing.

A spiritual vegetarian person could be attracted to Buddhism or Hinduism...

It's your journey, it's what you think is right or wrong.....
Blind Faith

Shaq, the question you are trying to ask is, could a mere mortal put a numerical value into verse ?
When you look at it this way then the answer is a very simple ....yes.
No miracle, no devine word of god.. Crying or Very sad
It may be clever but that is all.
All_Brains

Blind Faith wrote:
Shaq, the question you are trying to ask is, could a mere mortal put a numerical value into verse ?
When you look at it this way then the answer is a very simple ....yes.
No miracle, no devine word of god.. Crying or Very sad
It may be clever but that is all.


Blind faith is a powerful thing!
ibnishaq

All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
humm very interesting thanks all!

one more question though

why are so many people converting to islam? there is islamic/arabic studies at my university and many of the white non muslim people who take the class come out muslim one person is even moving to egypt. why is that?


That's an easy one shaq!

because they want to....Also many convert to Christianity and many many leave religion all together, like myself. Some people have their own set of ethics and the may find a religion that fulfill their desire...

Example....A rich Saudi man who likes to take many wives and right hand possessions would find Islam very convincing.

A spiritual vegetarian person could be attracted to Buddhism or Hinduism...

It's your journey, it's what you think is right or wrong.....

humm good point but i do not understand why the writers would do that and not mention it.

also it did not seem to be the norm thing to do such. typical arabs did not do such in their poetry!
Blind Faith

All_Brains wrote.
Blind faith is a powerful thing!

It certainly is and faith heads are so easily hoodwinked.
But does a numerical value in the quran meet the criteria for miracle in the first place ?

MIRACLE

1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

2. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God:

3. something which man is not normally capable of making happen and which is therefore thought to be done by a god or God.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The miracles that Christians attribute to Christ, such as raising the dead, walking on water, curing desease and disability through touch etc...would be considered miracles as they defy the laws of physics.
Some muslims claim that Allah split the moon as a sign of Mohamads prophethood. This would also be classed as a miracle for the same reason.

Personaly I do not believe any of the miracles above ever happened. The fact that god performed many miracles in the early primitive history of man, yet fails to show his devine power to his more scientific and sceptically advanced minions is very telling.
But that is beside the point.

The question is, could a group of people from the seventh century create a book containing a numerical code that will prove to future generations that they understood the calender year ?

The answer once again is a simple yes.. Crying or Very sad
There is no miracle here.

Now if I was the creator of the universe and I wished to add a code into my book, so people of the future could decode and be awestruck by my benevolence. Then I would choose something a little more complicated than the months of the calender year.

Maybe I would choose the genetic human genome or the elementary table. I could encode the atomic structure or the content and workings of our solar system.
This would be very simple for me to do because I am the creator of all things and I can do anything.

Us mere mortals are very good at encrypting things. The fact that you are reading this proves my point.
After all there is a lump of metal leaving our solar sytem and heading into outer space with far superior encripted codes than what you find in any of our holy books.

The numerical code (if there is one) in the quran fails to meet the criteria needed to be be classed as a miracle.
There are no miracles in the quran.
There is no science in the quran that was unknown to man prior to its creation.
The quran contains blatant scientific errors.
If the quran is the word of god then god has very little understanding about his creation.
ibnishaq

ok first off blind faith - but do you not realize how hard it would be to make a numerical miracle in arabic? not only that but people just did not do that at that time. it is easy for english person to make such miracle but for arabic noo way jose.
in the mean time;

UPDATE:
i ask all arabic speakers to help me out here.

so i did search for "days" in quran in arabic came out with 34 BUT 7 were disputed so that equals 27. then three duals for "2 days" makes exactly 30 hence days=30.

NOW FOR THE DISPUTED WORDS:
34:18 uses word waayyaman. does that mean day?
5:95 uses word siyaman.
5:89 uses word fasiyamu
2:187 uses two.. alssiyami and alssiyama. i do not think those mean days.

Then there is;
3:140 which uses yamsaskum and al-ayyamu.. do any of these mean days?

if any of those disputed words DOES mean days then the whole thing is down drain and it is NOT a miracle just merely a coincidence. 3:140 stuck out most because i see some translators use "days" in their english translations.

please reply asap because this has been bugging me SO much for past month. i finally decided to take the time to do the search myself and not just listen to the claims. and this is my results!
ibnishaq

for month:
i get 12 exactly but 5 disputed.

46:15 - is it singular or plural?
9:36 - plural?
97:3 - plural?
34:12(twice) - plural?

i am confused as to whether or not those are singular or plural when they use the word "month."

to make it simple for arabic speakers i will post what it says in arabic to help you not have to do too much research..


وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَبَلَغَ أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً قَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ وَأَصْلِحْ لِي فِي ذُرِّيَّتِي إِنِّي تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَإِنِّي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ (46:15)

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَات وَالأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ فَلاَ تَظْلِمُواْ فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَقَاتِلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَآفَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَآفَّةً وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ (9:36)

لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ خَيْرٌ مِّنْ أَلْفِ شَهْرٍ (97:3)

وَلِسُلَيْمَانَ الرِّيحَ غُدُوُّهَا شَهْرٌ وَرَوَاحُهَا شَهْرٌ وَأَسَلْنَا لَهُ عَيْنَ الْقِطْرِ وَمِنَ الْجِنِّ مَن يَعْمَلُ بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِ وَمَن يَزِغْ مِنْهُمْ عَنْ أَمْرِنَا نُذِقْهُ مِنْ عَذَابِ السَّعِيرِ (34:12)




thank you!
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:


NOW FOR THE DISPUTED WORDS:
34:18 uses word waayyaman. does that mean day?


Waayyaman means days!


Quote:
5:95 uses word siyaman.


Means fasting

Quote:
5:89 uses word fasiyamu


Again means fasting.
Quote:

2:187 uses two.. alssiyami and alssiyama. i do not think those mean days.


You're right, again this means fasting.

Quote:
Then there is;
3:140 which uses yamsaskum and al-ayyamu.. do any of these mean days?


yamsaskum means to be touched.

Al-ayyamu means days.

Quote:
if any of those disputed words DOES mean days then the whole thing is down drain and it is NOT a miracle just merely a coincidence. 3:140 stuck out most because i see some translators use "days" in their english translations.

please reply asap because this has been bugging me SO much for past month. i finally decided to take the time to do the search myself and not just listen to the claims. and this is my results!


Cases closed shaq! No numerical miracle after all.

From the examples you have given me, I found two and not one words that mean days.

If this does not convince you, I don't what would?
ibnishaq

Thanks for the reply!

however, I did make an error.

i had mentioned 2 possible verses that had it but i was confused about. well, apparently they were counted.

i had counted 2:196 3 times,when it should have only been counted once. siyaman and fasiyamu mean fasting, and i mistaked them as days.

so, it is mentioned 27 times. so it is a miracle i guess. Sad

All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
so, it is mentioned 27 times. so it is a miracle i guess. Sad[/b]


You lost me there! Shouldn't have that be 30 times to qualify as a clever bit?
ibnishaq

All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
so, it is mentioned 27 times. so it is a miracle i guess. Sad[/b]


You lost me there! Shouldn't have that be 30 times to qualify as a clever bit?


+ 3 duals. there are 3 duals(yawmain) so 27+3=30.
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
so, it is mentioned 27 times. so it is a miracle i guess. Sad[/b]


You lost me there! Shouldn't have that be 30 times to qualify as a clever bit?


+ 3 duals. there are 3 duals(yawmain) so 27+3=30.


Ah, ok!

Well, I think this is the end for me on this topic. I think this is by no means a miracle, as it's doesn't fit within the miracle criteria, i.e: It's quite achievable be clever humans.

The OT 1500 years before the Quran had very similar numerical tricks and still did not impress me.

If this is enough for your shaq to believe that wives should be beaten up and homo-sexual should be put to death then enjoy the little entertaining puzzle. This is my last word on the numerical miracles in the Quran.
ibnishaq

wait, do not leave yet! lol can i ask you just a few questions?

1. should duals be counted with plurals?

2. was it normal for people at that time to create these clever tricks of numerics?

3. are there any other islamic writings that have such?

4. what are the possibilities of this being coincidence?

5. would it be hard to put such in the quran because of arabic?

that is all i ask, and then you can be through with it! lol

i just do not understand how someone could put it in there. but, i already have a topic about the compilation of the quran and so that can be discussed in that topic!

and i agree, beating women is TERRIBLE so is hurting people for their orientation and eternal hell. all bad things!
cosmicdancer

Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam

ibnishaq wrote:
1. numerical miracle? in the qu'ran if you look up the number of times month is said, it is 12. days in plural is 30. there are also some numerous repetitions like this world and hereafter.


From my own brief research I hav e found these claims to be false - see my post on your other thread.

But to be honest Ibn Ishaq - I don't understand your obsession with these number games. Surely it is what the Qur'an actually says that should make you believe or not?

ibnishaq wrote:
allah fish? this one is stupid but there have been some sightings of like wish with words "allah" and "muhammad" on it. is that miraculous or not?


Are you serious?

Do you really think that God (if he exisists) would put coded messages in fish, tomatos, and auberigines?

And then torture someone for all eternity for not seeing the fish or buying the correct tomato?

ibnishaq wrote:
his health - in general i just wonder why he had seizures and then came up with verses and such.


I have no idea whether Muhammad had seizures or not.

But I don't believe he was talking to God - that's for sure.

The Qur'an are clearly the words of a man.

A man from a 7th century nomadic society - one that was at times very barbaric.

I don't blame Muhammad.

He was simply a man of his times.

I don't think he ever imagined he would affect the future of mankind as he did.

That is not his fault - but the fault of those who continue to believe in all this nonsense.

the question is - do you want to continue perpetuating this myth or not?

It takes courage to step outside the box.
Blind Faith

Shaq wrote.

ok first off blind faith - but do you not realize how hard it would be to make a numerical miracle in arabic?

No I do not understand, please explain ?
We are communicating in English are we not ?
Does your miracle still work in the English version of the Quran or only in Arabic ?

Shaq wrote.

2. was it normal for people at that time to create these clever tricks of numerics?

This is a misleading question my friend. What you should ask is, is it possible for a people of that time to play clever tricks with numerics?

It is only you who is claiming there is a numericle miracle in the Quran.
All_Brains 'who does understand arabic' has shown you that your logic is faulty.

There are people like yourself from every faith who study their texts and find hidden codes.
Just Googling I have found claims to codes hidden in The Torah, Talmud, Bible, Quran and Vedic sanskrit.
All these people are convinced they have found some hidden numerical truth (Miracle) in their ancient texts.

Are all these people correct or only yourself ?
Or just maybe you are all looking too hard for something that is not there ?
ibnishaq

Blind Faith wrote:
Shaq wrote.

ok first off blind faith - but do you not realize how hard it would be to make a numerical miracle in arabic?

No I do not understand, please explain ?
We are communicating in English are we not ?
Does your miracle still work in the English version of the Quran or only in Arabic ?

Shaq wrote.

2. was it normal for people at that time to create these clever tricks of numerics?

This is a misleading question my friend. What you should ask is, is it possible for a people of that time to play clever tricks with numerics?

It is only you who is claiming there is a numericle miracle in the Quran.
All_Brains 'who does understand arabic' has shown you that your logic is faulty.

There are people like yourself from every faith who study their texts and find hidden codes.
Just Googling I have found claims to codes hidden in The Torah, Talmud, Bible, Quran and Vedic sanskrit.
All these people are convinced they have found some hidden numerical truth (Miracle) in their ancient texts.

Are all these people correct or only yourself ?
Or just maybe you are all looking too hard for something that is not there ?

but the torah codes and bible codes are flawed because it is not about the number of times this is in the bible. rather it is if you skip every 10 words you get __, then __, then ___ and is spells out __x__. whereas qurans miracle is simple; days is repeated 30 times. month 12. and day 365. there is no hard codes that is impossible to look up. i do not even know arabic and was able to look up the quranic miracle of repetition with ease!

bible codes and vedic codes are much different then quranic miracle of repetition.
Blind Faith

Shaq wrote.
__. whereas qurans miracle is simple; days is repeated 30 times.

Yet a post shortly before and after All_Brains had corrected you, you wrote....

so, it is mentioned 27 times. so it is a miracle i guess. Crying or Very sad

So who's code is flawed ?
ibnishaq

Blind Faith wrote:
Shaq wrote.
__. whereas qurans miracle is simple; days is repeated 30 times.

Yet a post shortly before and after All_Brains had corrected you, you wrote....

so, it is mentioned 27 times. so it is a miracle i guess. Crying or Very sad

So who's code is flawed ?


+ 3 duals

=
30
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
Blind Faith wrote:
Shaq wrote.
__. whereas qurans miracle is simple; days is repeated 30 times.

Yet a post shortly before and after All_Brains had corrected you, you wrote....

so, it is mentioned 27 times. so it is a miracle i guess. Crying or Very sad

So who's code is flawed ?


+ 3 duals

=
30


Duals means two so (2 x 3) = 6

You see, everyone can play that game! Laughing
ibnishaq

yeah you do have a good point i mean if it meant 2 then we should add 2 and not just 1 but then again when others say days they say it like "3 days" or "10 days" so idk
Blind Faith

Hello Shaq.
I just want to be sure of this....Does the code work in English Quran or only in Arabic ?
ibnishaq

arabic. most translations change a word or two hence make it not compatible. that is the problem with translating.

like in english we say of and from. yet in spanish they just say "de" for both. so when one looks at something translated, the words are different sometimes.
Blind Faith

Hello Shaq.
I understand what you mean.
I put a word search through a number of English translations.
On 'days' I got answers from 27-29.
This appears to agree with what you have been able to show to us, unless you use your 'duals'. Either way it’s not quite there.
Also 30x12= 360 so even if it was correct you are still 5 days short. However if you are working with the Quranic lunar cycle it is closer.


I have been taking a look at the website that makes these claims.

The different use of the word “day” in the Quran is a miraculous phenomenon. While the singular word “a day” is used 365 times, the plural of it (eyyam, yewmeyn) is used 30 times. This represents the number of the days in a month which is 30. So it is meaningful that while the singular “day” (yewm) is mentioned 365 times, the plural of it (eyyam, yevmeyn) is mentioned 30 times.
In the solar calendar, the months have either 30 or 31 days and in the lunar calendar the months have either 29 or 30 days. So, the number 30 is the intersection group for both calendars. In the community to which the Quran was revealed, the lunar calendar was in use; the mention of “30” is therefore meaningful. It takes 29.53 days for the moon, the planet in the sky, to make a month. The rounded figure is 30. With such mathematical miracles, we witness that the Quran calculates correctly this rounding up bussiness. Likewise, the world completes its cycle around the sun in 365.25 days exactly. The rounded figure is 365.


This is all very well but you yourself are having problems finding the extra ‘days’ in the Quran to back up their claim. I think I know why.

It takes the Earth approximately 365 days to orbit the sun creating one solar year.
Within a solar year the moon completes just over12 orbits around the earth. There is a difference of 11 days every solar year.

This discrepancy of 11 days requires periodic adjustment (intercalation). Without adjustment the calendar year gradually shifts out of alignment with the seasons.
The intercalated lunar calendar shows that people understood this misalignment with the seasons and added one extra month in 7 out of 19 years keeping things in balance with the seasons.

Early civilizations used a lunar metonic or intercalation calendar. Within this calendar lies the magic number 19.
19 years being the time it takes the full moon to arrive back in its original alignment with the stars.

This was well known to the Greeks. The lunar calendar is however much older and can be traced back nearly 6000 years to the time of Nebuchadnezzer II of Babylon.

Now let’s take the Islamic lunar calendar 638 AD and the code that lies within. The first Ramadan of the new Islamic calendar was celebrated in March. Over the next few years the festival gradually backed up 11 days every year, almost one month within every three years. It has carried on doing this every year because you do not recognize intercalation in order to bring the year back inline with the solar year.

The reason for this is that the Quran forbids intercalation and the realignment of the lunar year with the solar year. The Quran views the 12 months of the lunar year as fixed and any deviation is a great evil.

In ‘The cow’ it is made clear that the appointed times are based solely on the lunar months.

(2.189) They ask you concerning the new moon. Say; they are times appointed (designated months of the year) for the benefit of men and for the pilgrimage.

In ‘The immunity’ it is written that no year may consist of more than 12 lunar months (no intercalation). Any attempt to do so would go against Allah.

(9.36) Surely the months with Allah is twelve months with Allah’s ordinance since the day he created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore do not be unjust to yourself regarding them, and fight the polytheists altogether as they fight you altogether; and now that Allah is with those who guard against evil.

I put it to you Shaq that the numerical code in the Quran works better with the Islamic ‘outdated’ and incorrect lunar calendar, without any intercalation to bring it into line with the solar calendar.
The Islamic calendar 638 AD is still in use today by muslims and is still as faulty as it was then.

The website that you have found your information is slightly dishonest. It has added extra ‘days’ in order to bring the numerical code in line with the more accurate solar calendar used today. It is not only dishonest it is against Allah’s will.
Allah is the moon god after all.
brainout

Funny how it's called a miracle when it appears in the Qu'ran, no matter how insulting it is to Allah, that someone would condition his faith in the Qu'ran based on such numerical occurrences.

Yet in the link below, you have a genuine miracle, which Muslims were so upset about, Burger King was attacked. That doesn't make sense, but neither does believing Koran valid, based on how many times He says something in Koran.

Here's the link: Another miracle from Allah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwsv31TnWuA, scroll or wait until the "1:12" or "1:13" marker of minutes into the clip: newspaper displays the miracle.
Eopithecus

Re: 3 questions that could get me out of islam

ibnishaq wrote:
1. numerical miracle? in the qu'ran if you look up the number of times month is said, it is 12. days in plural is 30. there are also some numerous repetitions like this world and hereafter.


Numerology was a common practice amoung Pagans and Jews, for instance use in Astrology.

ibnishaq wrote:
2. allah fish? this one is stupid but there have been some sightings of like wish with words "allah" and "muhammad" on it. is that miraculous or not?


Catholics see Saints and Mary, people that believe in Ghosts will see a ghost. Muslims see Allah and Muhammad written. Are you familiar with Physics? Everything you see in the entire Universe is basically empty space between electrons and the nucleus. Essentially every physical thing is made of space. If given an infinite amount of time with an infinite amount of attempts I will be able to walk through a wall and come out the other side, just because the chance alignment of the atomic material in my body eventually allows me to do it  I will hit my head trillions and trillions of times, but I only need to walk through the wall once. The miracle here is not walking through the wall that is random chance. The true miracle would be living long enough to do it.

There are Billions and Billions of fish in the sea and Trillions have lived since the dawn of time so if I see a fish with Allah written in Arabic I think chance. If I ever see a Fish with "Eat at Joes" or "MasterCard Accepted" I may have to change my mind.

Personally, reducing Allah to performing parlor tricks with fish is just ignorance and superstition by uneducated people.

ibnishaq wrote:
3. his health - in general i just wonder why he had seizures and then came up with verses and such.
if these can be explained then maybe it will not be miraculous and maybe qu'ran is human written!


No-one knows why he had siezures, it could be from injury or genetic. Muhammad did not create verse because of his epilepsy. Rather he created  verse because he was familiar with Hanif Poetry, Judaism and Christianity. What Muhammad did do, was used his epilepsy to fool his followers into thinking these lines of verse were divine. Didn't a scribe actually leave Muhammad because the scribe was frightened about being discovered at having changed verses proving that Muhammad was in fact a fraud? If you notice during Muhammad's life he had a special hatred for Poets that disagreed with him. Poets at that time were very effective social commentators. Muhammad knew this, so he was very aware of the need to appear Poetic to convince people to his side. That didn't work well for him, because he wasn't very good. So he raised a street gang that had more influence. "Convert or die" was a  much more effective message than "Please Follow Me".
Anna Doe

The brain, not even one time cited in the koran

Hello IbnIshaq!

I don't know if you need some more help but I wonder if you ever thought about the fact that allah never mentioned the brain in the whole koran!

He used the word heart some 50 times, and mostly to speak about the brain's functions! Like that thoughts and feelings are coming from the heart and so on... It could be an allegory, but 50 times?!!! And never ever citing the brain? That is kind of strange, don't you think?

When I was researching the topic, see the whole thread here, I found out that the Egyptians knew about the brain and even about the meninges (coverings of the brain) and cerebrospinal fluid, two thousands of year maybe even three thousands of year before the writting of the koran! How can allah not cite the brain even once in his final clear, complete and perfect guide for all time, all mankind and all places?

Your miracle about allah writting month 12 times is quite dwarfed by the total oblivion of something as important as the brain! Unless... unless allah didn't know about the brain, afterall allah only knew what the Greek physician Galen knew... And Galen thought the heart was giving us thoughts and feelings! Additionally the Egyptian hieroglyph was translated only recently, how allah could know what was written there? LOL

We don't know if Egypt could have come back to lead all of us again, but why not? We will never know how much we have lost because of islam. But for sure it is a lot: fifth of mankind! Countries with rich pasts like Iran, Assyria, India etc... How many All_Brains, Ali Sinas, Baals, Saharas, Truth Seekers, Ayaans and Anwar Shaikhs have we lost in consequence of islamic swords and slavery?

---------------

Dear Ms, maybe this should be a new thread, I am too shy to make one, I thought this thread was actual because I saw it on "Open support tickets"...
brainout

Ok, I gotta differ with Anna Doe.  The heritage of the Qu'ran is the Bible, and the Qu'ran is positively fixated on following the same rhetorical rules as for the Bible.  So it's natural to first interpret what it says, in light of the Bible it claims to update.

Bible uses heart EXCLUSIVELY for thinking.  For the soul.  Specifically, for the BELIEVING part of the soul.  Way higher than a reference to the brain, which after all is only biology.  Long had man known the internal workings of the body, there was too much war not to know.  So embryology and all that stuff was known to man.  No miracle there.

But the soul, only God can know.  So God told us in the Bible that the soul has functional compartments, one of which is believing.  If you search on Hebrew Lev (spelled lamed beth), or in Greek OT (LXX) kardia, you'll find all the references.  Be sure to search on the root word, so you'll get all the morphologies, too.  That way you can understand what Qu'ran means, when it talks about the heart.  It's not about feeling, but thinking.  You'll see that, as you look up the 700+ references in Bible.
brainout

What really undoes the Qu'ran is that it reverses the Bible in silly ways.  Look up any passage you like which references some Bible person, then compare to what the Bible says about that person, and ask yourself if the Qu'ran doesn't portray that same person in a derisive manner, compared to the Bible.  

So then what gives?  If the Qu'ran claims Musa or Ibraim as a good person Allah lauds, then why is that person depicted BY Allah (allegedly) as being so silly?  Even Allah is depicted as being silly.  So who wrote the Qu'ran?

Allah is quite chatty and boastful, in the Qu'ran.  Why?  Enough, anyone can compare the two texts and draw his own conclusions.  Don't go by hearsay.  Read them both yourself, draw your own conclusions.  God gave YOU a brain, you don't need to go by what others (including me!) say.
All_Brains

Re: The brain, not even one time cited in the koran

Anna Doe wrote:
Hello IbnIshaq!

I don't know if you need some more help but I wonder if you ever thought about the fact that allah never mentioned the brain in the whole koran!

He used the word heart some 50 times, and mostly to speak about the brain's functions! Like that thoughts and feelings are coming from the heart and so on... It could be an allegory, but 50 times?!!! And never ever citing the brain? That is kind of strange, don't you think?

When I was researching the topic, see the whole thread here, I found out that the Egyptians knew about the brain and even about the meninges (coverings of the brain) and cerebrospinal fluid, two thousands of year maybe even three thousands of year before the writting of the koran! How can allah not cite the brain even once in his final clear, complete and perfect guide for all time, all mankind and all places?

Your miracle about allah writting month 12 times is quite dwarfed by the total oblivion of something as important as the brain! Unless... unless allah didn't know about the brain, afterall allah only knew what the Greek physician Galen knew... And Galen thought the heart was giving us thoughts and feelings! Additionally the Egyptian hieroglyph was translated only recently, how allah could know what was written there? LOL

We don't know if Egypt could have come back to lead all of us again, but why not? We will never know how much we have lost because of islam. But for sure it is a lot: fifth of mankind! Countries with rich pasts like Iran, Assyria, India etc... How many All_Brains, Ali Sinas, Baals, Saharas, Truth Seekers, Ayaans and Anwar Shaikhs have we lost in consequence of islamic swords and slavery?

---------------

Dear Ms, maybe this should be a new thread, I am too shy to make one, I thought this thread was actual because I saw it on "Open support tickets"...


Hello Anna Doe

I am very glad that you have decided to publish your first post!

Please don't be shy and sound your most needed voice whenever you can. I know that you also care for what Islam did and still doing to women everywhere, so I have created a sub-forum called "Planet Venus", which was already made exciting by the help of Katlike. We would love to see you there!

Regards
All_Brains
Baal

Brainout, As Anna stated, Fifty times it mentions the heart as a centre of thought and no mention of the brain. you can interpret it as a metaphor all you want. And if the Koran made this mistake because the old testament made the same mistake then how is that a defense for the koran?

And yes, people knew the internal organs throughout the ages, but they did not know what the organs were for. Until last year, we did not even know what was the appendix for. And the Greeks of the time really thought that thought comes from the heart. That was their true belief for them, not a a metaphor.

They knew how the body looked like, they just did not know what it was for.

Anna, *mwah*, as always, it is great to read your posts.
brainout

Sigh.. Baal, I was TRYING TO EXPLAIN that "heart" MEANS THE SOUL, so means the brain.  The soul is where thought occurs.  The brain is the interface for the soul.  

It's called "heart" in Bible because CIRCULATION OF THOUGHT is depicted by the term.  That metaphor was in use for three millennia before the Qu'ran, it is still in use today, so it is very likely Qu'ran is using "heart" that way.

"Heart" never means the physical heart in Bible.  It is a metaphor of thinking, see Proverbs 23:6-7.

You know, the Qu'ran doesn't have to be wrong about EVERYTHING, lol.

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