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AhmedBahgat

9:29

Hello All

On the Kuffar web site FaithFreedom.com they consistently use 9:29 to defame the Quran, Islam and all Muslims, what they deliberately do is take the verse (alone) then manipulate it out of its context to cook a clear cut lie, the context of any sura in the Quran is not something the Muslims invented as a refute to those ignorant enemy of Islam, the context is in front of every one's eyes for 1400 years and can be clearly read in the verses before 9:29 and beyond, that is why they had to only look at 9:29 and ignore the rest of Sura no 9, i.e. they are deliberately blind, i.e. they can not be trusted as a source of information about this great religion, there is no doubt that they have an agenda against this great religion, I wonder why they are failing so bad for 1400 years?

9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop, this is when these verses in Sura 9 was revealed (sure 9 is the last sura that was revealed which means it was revealed at the last days of Mohammad before he died, we also  notice that it does not have the Bismillah (in the name of Allah....), some say that it does not have the Bismillah because it is full of threats to those Kafiroon and their filthy act around the Kabba, but somehow I can't buy this because the Quran in many of the other suras that start with the Bismillah is still threatening the Kafiroon big times, anyway the objective and the message is clear and it was to reclaim the Kabba the house of Allah and free it from all these filthy acts, looking at all the verses that I brought in here we will see the picture crystal clear, I will list the verses in English then the original language in Arabic, and my walkthrough will follow:

1- (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

2- So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

3- And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

4- Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

5- So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

6-  And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

7- How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[The Quran ; 9:1-7]

بَرَاءةٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى الَّذِينَ عَاهَدتُّم مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (1)
فَسِيحُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٍ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّكُمْ غَيْرُ مُعْجِزِي اللّهِ وَأَنَّ اللّهَ مُخْزِي الْكَافِرِينَ (2)
وَأَذَانٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى النَّاسِ يَوْمَ الْحَجِّ الأَكْبَرِ أَنَّ اللّهَ بَرِيءٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ وَرَسُولُهُ فَإِن تُبْتُمْ فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّكُمْ غَيْرُ مُعْجِزِي اللّهِ وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ (3)
إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ عَاهَدتُّم مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَنقُصُوكُمْ شَيْئًا وَلَمْ يُظَاهِرُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ أَحَدًا فَأَتِمُّواْ إِلَيْهِمْ عَهْدَهُمْ إِلَى مُدَّتِهِمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُتَّقِينَ (4)
فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (5)
وَإِنْ أَحَدٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ اسْتَجَارَكَ فَأَجِرْهُ حَتَّى يَسْمَعَ كَلاَمَ اللّهِ ثُمَّ أَبْلِغْهُ مَأْمَنَهُ ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَعْلَمُونَ (6)
كَيْفَ يَكُونُ لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ عَهْدٌ عِندَ اللّهِ وَعِندَ رَسُولِهِ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ عَاهَدتُّمْ عِندَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ فَمَا اسْتَقَامُواْ لَكُمْ فَاسْتَقِيمُواْ لَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُتَّقِينَ (7)

-> Verse 1, when the incident happened Allah wanted Mohammad to make an agreement with those filthy kafiroon, by telling them that they should stop their Mardi Gras around the House of Allah and act properly and decently and they will have immunity: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement. , the fact about the Mardi Gras committed by the Kafiroon around the Kabba is very well known from the history records of the prophet

-> Verse 2, - There is 4 scared months in the lunar year, humans used to come to the Kabba in these 4 months, one month of these 4 is the one when  the great Hajj is performed, it is like, in the other 3 months they used to do a minor version of Hajj, during this time also, the Muslims are not allowed to fight their enemy UNLESS IT IS A MUST, the verse is just mentioning those 4 months and also a warning  to the Kafiroon regarding those 4 sacred months, So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers., what a mercy from Allah to constantly threaten those disbelievers so they turn into the right path and become winners instead of losers on the JD, of course He is the Most merciful

-> Verse 3, this is where the warning was given to the Kafiroon not to do Tawaf naked around the Kabba on the day of the great Hajj : And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters;, we can see straight after the warning that repenting from this evil act was on offer for them, therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, see, better for them, but if they insist on this evil act : and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve. similar warning to the one in 9:2, again a message of mercy for those ignorant

-> Verse 4, things will start to become a bit clearer, sure some Kafiroon were intelligent enough to understand that what they were doing was evil, wrong and filthy, especially after the great warning was given accompanied with an offer to repent,- :Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfil their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). , see how clear it is, you have to also know that the words : fulfil their agreement to the end of their term means that no Muslim should  fight during these 4 months, but if they want to fight us to take the Kabba for example to do the Mardi Gras Tawaf then the agreement is to wait after the end of these 4 months then bring it on Kafiroon,

-> Verse 5, and if the 4 sacred months finish and the kafiroon want to bring it on and fight and kill us  then we should fight and kill them :So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,, then if they repent and stop fighting us, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. , you have to know that Salat mentioned in here does not really mean the Islamic Salat and the Islamic Zakat, in fact these practises were known to Noah and Abraham people, that is why the kafiroon were coming to the Kabba anyway, to make their Salat to their Idols and pay Zakat (sort of a tax to help the poor or low income earners), therefore the enemy of Islam took it as they must be Muslims otherwise they should be killed, THIS IS 100% WRONG, because the Quran word for anyone to be a Muslim is Aslam or Aslamo, (I can show many examples if rwuired), so the above warning is only for the kafiroon to comply with the new law set by Allah after the reclaim of the Kabba and the establishment of the strong Islamic state at the end of the prophet days., therefore and because we don't read the word Aslamo then they were not required to believe, it is a personal  choice to each individual but if you chose to not to believe, then respect yourself and not attack or mock the believers, their holy places and their rituals. For the money that they had to pay, come on, what is wrong with that?, it is the law of any land, the land became Islamic at that time and it must run as their leaders want, at least the leader at the time was not making flawed human laws, rather conveying the divine laws he received and was obliged to deliver it to all of us

-> Verse 6, will confirm what I said about verse 5, you will see that Allah is still referring to them as idolaters  but is telling the believers  that they  MUST PROTECT THEM if they seek protection BUT THEY MUST COMPLY WITH THE AGREEMENT ABOVE IN VERSE 5, :And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him, the main reason to protect that peaceful Kafir is simply he/she may listen to the last message of our God: so that he may hear the Word of Allah,, Mohammad must also convey him to his place of safety: and afterward convey him to his place of safety. simply Allah wants us to help those peaceful Kafiroon because they lack the knowledge of Allah :That is because they are a folk who know not., see another merciful message to those ignorant bound to hell unless they bloody listen and understand what the high stakes are

-> Verse 7, Allah is summing it up beautifully: How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)., WHAT ELSE I CAN SAY?, So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)

Moving on to verse 9:29, I brought in verse 9:28 as well for my walk through, 9:28 is about reclaiming the kabba, i.e. the kafiroon will not be allowed to come near it any more, this is a law from Allah regarding His House that one of His prophets (Abraham) built then was mocked and invaded by idol worshippers then reclaimed by another one of Allah prophets (Mohammed):

28- O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

29- Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[The Quran ; 9:28-29]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلاَ يَقْرَبُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ إِن شَاء إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ (2Cool
قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ (29)

-> Verse 28, about reclaiming the Kabba : O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year;, don't take it literally as they are dirty, rather they are not clean spiritually and that is what the verse means, and because after this law was forced the believers will loose a lot of trade with the kafiroon who used to come to the Kabba during these 4 scared months, therefore Allah is warning the believers  from worrying about loosing financially gains due to the new law: and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

- Verse 29, is simply the same law we discussed earlier, that the Kafiroon who insist on doing the wrong around the house of Allah and do not pay the tax of the land  then they have to be fought see the word used Qatalu, it is not Jahido, i.e. it is a case of restoring order by the rulers of the land, it is exactly as the French government don't want the Muslim women to wear Hijab because it is the law of the land they are living in and that law is only targeting the Muslim women, in regard to the Jeziah (Tax), well it is exactly as the tax that we pay now, in fact in Australia the tax system differentiates between one and another based on many things, the bottom line is this, if those kafiroon want to live in the Islamic land at that time then they had to pay the tax imposed at that time on that land, which will guarantee their protection and safety as 9:6-7 clearly told us, those who don't want to pay the tax, will be prosecuted and put under custody exactly as it happens in any western country until they pay the evaded tax, and if the pay the tax  the prophet  must convey them to a place of safety and protect them :Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited[/u] (i.e. going around the kabba naked), nor follow the religion of truth (of course those who do that don't follow the religion of truth), out of those who have been given the Book (of oucrse they have to be believers in a god not atheists), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection (they have to be after refusing to pay it then been forced to pay it exactly as it happens in any western country now days), the enemy of Islam however take 9:29 put of context and make it as if it is a general rule for Islamic doctrine, hmmm, ok fine with me then, if you live in a Muslim land, you have to pay the tax of that Muslim land, if you are not happy then tough luck, you need to leave and find another country where you can evade taxes but if you get caught, you will still be prosecuted and you will still pay it while you are in the state of subjection

The confused enemy of Islam will still come and say : no the verse is not talking about this specific incident.

Ahmed says:

Despite the whole sura is almost talking about this incident, the Quran in another location clearly is telling us that we should be peaceful to anyone who don't fight us on the account of our religion, this means all the people on this web site who fight us on the account of our religion must be fought using the same weapon they use which is the internet, it is better for them to reject the religion of Islam peacefully and gracefully and in that case we will live with them in peace and if they live in our land we must protect them and convey the to their places of safety:

8- Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

9- Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

[The Quran ; 60:8-9]

لَا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ أَن تَبَرُّوهُمْ وَتُقْسِطُوا إِلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ (Cool
إِنَّمَا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ قَاتَلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَأَخْرَجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ وَظَاهَرُوا عَلَى إِخْرَاجِكُمْ أَن تَوَلَّوْهُمْ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (9)

-> See, Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, the word Qatalkum which was used in 9:29, was translated here as make war, and because the order in this verse is to be peaceful with those who don't fight us on the account of our religion, then 9:29 confirms that it was talking about that specific incident and those kafiroon who rejected to pay the tax and rejected to comply with the new laws regarding the House of Allah after it was freed and its authority was returned to the people who believe in Allah (The God of that House)

-> Again 60:9 confirms that 9:29 was talking about that specific incident and not generally : Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, see, now apply this on 9:29:

If the kafiroon refuse to comply with the new rules governing the House of Allah, (I really wonder why they bother if they don't believe in the God of that House?)  or

If the kafiroon refuse to pay the tax at that time

This means that kafiroon are fighting us on the account of our religion in our Islamic land and must be fought and held accountable according to the law

If they pay the tax as any good citizen does and comply with the current Islamic laws around the Kabba then we will live with them in peace and again we must protect them, convey them to their places of safety and be true to them exactly as 9:6-7 told us

The Kuffar has no point indeed, I wonder when the itch will let go of them?

Salam
Baal

Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?
Baal

And it is okay, Ahmed, I am a very peaceful person, I will even let you have Four month, if by then you do not paint your car purple, I will come and take it. What do you want, I gave you Four month. That is a long time no?
Baal

As for Najis meaning "Dirty Spiritually", it is okay, we all know what does najis means in islam. The same word is describing pigs. They must be dirty spiritually too.
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?




it is not cute, it's filthy

I knew from the history records that is qualified by the Quran


next
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
As for Najis meaning "Dirty Spiritually", it is okay, we all know what does najis means in islam. The same word is describing pigs. They must be dirty spiritually too.




Ignorant

The pigs were called "Rijjsun"

that is noot Nijjis mister confused
BMZ

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
As for Najis meaning "Dirty Spiritually", it is okay, we all know what does najis means in islam. The same word is describing pigs. They must be dirty spiritually too.




Ignorant

The pigs were called "Rijjsun"

that is noot Nijjis mister confused


LOL! Bro

This is the problem with the majority of ex-Mulims. They know not much and do not understand.

Salaams
BMZ
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?




it is not cute, it's filthy

I knew from the history records that is qualified by the Quran


next

You mean from the Hadith. Thank you.

next.
Baal

You got Four month minus 2 days. Is your car purple yet? I am a very peaceful person but do not push me. Time is ticking.


DISCLAIMER: This is by no mean an attack on the physical property of anyone on this forum. I have no idea if Ahmed even has a car. The painting the car purple within Four month is only used as an example to demonstrate that ordering people to do ridiculous things is NOT peaceful no matter how much lead time they are offered.
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?




it is not cute, it's filthy

I knew from the history records that is qualified by the Quran


next

You mean from the Hadith. Thank you.

next.


From the history reacords pal baal
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?

hahahaha



it is not cute, it's filthy

I knew from the history records that is qualified by the Quran


next

You mean from the Hadith. Thank you.

next.


From the history reacords pal baal
OJ Smoke

I agree with what AhmedBahgat had to say regarding Surah Taubah. Many Non-Muslims enjoy taking this Surah completely out of context. I suspect that they learned about Islam from Craig Winn's Website.... Twisted Evil

Surah 9 itself is self-explanatory
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
As for Najis meaning "Dirty Spiritually", it is okay, we all know what does najis means in islam. The same word is describing pigs. They must be dirty spiritually too.




Ignorant

The pigs were called "Rijjsun"

that is noot Nijjis mister confused


We both know that this is not true!
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
As for Najis meaning "Dirty Spiritually", it is okay, we all know what does najis means in islam. The same word is describing pigs. They must be dirty spiritually too.




Ignorant

The pigs were called "Rijjsun"

that is noot Nijjis mister confused


We both know that this is not true!



what is not true mate?
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
As for Najis meaning "Dirty Spiritually", it is okay, we all know what does najis means in islam. The same word is describing pigs. They must be dirty spiritually too.




Ignorant

The pigs were called "Rijjsun"

that is noot Nijjis mister confused


We both know that this is not true!



what is not true mate?


That Rijjsun is not the physical filthiness, but the spiritual one!

Nijjis is the physical filthiness and the proof is in the Quran! I will give you one clue.

Look up the final abrogated verse re abolishing alcohol and gambling!
BMZ

OJ Smoke wrote:
I agree with what AhmedBahgat had to say regarding Surah Taubah. Many Non-Muslims enjoy taking this Surah completely out of context. I suspect that they learned about Islam from Craig Winn's Website.... Twisted Evil

Surah 9 itself is self-explanatory


Greeetings & Welcome.

Just lost a reply prepared during clicking.  Sad Will try to do another, as good as I can.

Surah 9 is exploited and quoted out of context by the Islam-hating non-Muslim polemics. They know what all that means but choose to cherry-pick in order to make an invalid point. lol!

What these folks don't know is that Surah 9 Taubah should be read in conjuction with Surah 8 Anfaal. Surah 9 is a continuation of Surah 8.

Another important point, which the polemics fail to understand or prefer to ignore, is that the Meccans were already at war with the new Muslims and the infant Islam. It was not a peaceful time and the pagan brutal and ruthless Meccans, along with the other "Ahlul Kitaab", were continuously persecuting and hammering Muhammad and his followers.

Thus came the fair advance warning, giving the Meccans and their cahoots four months, the months in which even the pagans never fought and killed in their own culture. Those four months were scared in the pre-Islam culture.

Rules of engagement were laid out clearly. There had to be no more any turning of the cheek, which was not working anyway and God did not want a Jesus to be made out of Muhammad, otherwise Islam would have died in infancy.  Very Happy

No matter what twist, turn and spin the polemics put on Surah 9, the period of four months was enough and fair time for both sides to take note and the Muslims overcame the ruthless pagan pagan Meccans and their colleagues in arms.  Very Happy

Salaams
BMZ
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Context indeed!

All this goes to show that Islam came grounded in a specific context, and we need to take it in that way — all of it. Every single aspect of it developed in response to specific situations. Only when people try to apply them as eternal universals do we run into problems.
BMZ

Baal wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?


LOL! Baal,

How come you did not know about this story?

BMZ
 Laughing
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

So if Muhammad couldn’t accept these other religions alongside his own why should we expect muslims today to accept other religions alongside their own?
BMZ

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
So if Muhammad couldn’t accept these other religions alongside his own why should we expect muslims today to accept other religions alongside their own?


Muhammad acknowledged that there were other religions like Judaism and Christainity and Musllims also acknowledge that Judaism and Christianity are religions. Even Qur'aan acknowledged that, Pazuzu.

How could Muhamamd accept them and how can we?

BMZ
Baal

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?


LOL! Baal,

How come you did not know about this story?

BMZ
 Laughing

Keep the one-liners to yourself Son.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Oh, I know he acknowledged them and even showed reverence to Jewish prophets, for example, but the whole ‘idol–cleansing’ smacks of bigoted intolerance and puts me in mind of the buddha–destroying stories in the news last year.
AhmedBahgat

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
So if Muhammad couldn’t accept these other religions alongside his own why should we expect muslims today to accept other religions alongside their own?



Hello

Are you Pazuzu  of free-minds?

anyway, the Muslims accept other religions as long as they don't attack us, same should be happening today, the other faiths followers should accept Isalm as long as we don't attack them
Mutley

BMZ wrote:
OJ Smoke wrote:
I agree with what AhmedBahgat had to say regarding Surah Taubah. Many Non-Muslims enjoy taking this Surah completely out of context. I suspect that they learned about Islam from Craig Winn's Website.... Twisted Evil

Surah 9 itself is self-explanatory


Greeetings & Welcome.

Just lost a reply prepared during clicking.  Sad Will try to do another, as good as I can.

Surah 9 is exploited and quoted out of context by the Islam-hating non-Muslim polemics. They know what all that means but choose to cherry-pick in order to make an invalid point. lol!

What these folks don't know is that Surah 9 Taubah should be read in conjuction with Surah 8 Anfaal. Surah 9 is a continuation of Surah 8.


And? So what difference does that make? You didn't say.

BMZ wrote:

Another important point, which the polemics fail to understand or prefer to ignore, is that the Meccans were already at war with the new Muslims and the infant Islam.


Weren't the Muslims trying to convert Meccans to join them in Medina in order to raise an army? How were the Meccans supposed to feel about this?

BMZ wrote:

It was not a peaceful time and the pagan brutal and ruthless Meccans, along with the other "Ahlul Kitaab", were continuously persecuting and hammering Muhammad and his followers.


Document it. So far, all you have is a claim that a brainwashing propagandist told you.

BMZ wrote:

Thus came the fair advance warning, giving the Meccans and their cahoots four months, the months in which even the pagans never fought and killed in their own culture. Those four months were scared in the pre-Islam culture.


What are you talking about? I've never seen anybody blatantly invent the amount of things that you (or somebody else you talked to) seem to.

BMZ wrote:

Rules of engagement were laid out clearly.


Where?

BMZ wrote:

There had to be no more any turning of the cheek, which was not working anyway and God did not want a Jesus to be made out of Muhammad, otherwise Islam would have died in infancy.  Very Happy


Then why didn't Christianity? That should have died in it's infancy as well. But according to the Book of Acts, Jesus did indeed send the Holy Spirit to his Apostles, and they began performing miraculous healings which allowed them to spread the religion. They didn't have an army like Muhammad did, and yet they spread it all over Greece and Rome without a single sword being drawn.

BMZ wrote:

No matter what twist, turn and spin the polemics put on Surah 9, the period of four months was enough and fair time for both sides to take note and the Muslims overcame the ruthless pagan pagan Meccans and their colleagues in arms.  Very Happy

Salaams
BMZ


What exactly did the ruthless pagans do? According to the hadiths, they made a very compromising agreement with Muhammad, before Muhammad amassed a huge army. They agreed to actually abandon their city for a few days so that Muslims could come and worship at their Ka'aba (which in fact finds it's actual roots in Meccan paganism).They both put great reverence to the Black Stone and the Ka'aba. Yes, while the Jews and Christians never even recognize the Black Stone and the Ka'aba, the pagans of that age put a great deal of reverence into it, as did Muhammad.

So, the agreement worked fine the first year. The Meccans honored the bargain and left for a few days. But by the second year, the Muslim army grew to 10,000. So at the same time in the second year when they were supposed to come for pilgrimage, they actually came to conquer. They brought 10,000 armed men along with them in their "supposed" pilgrimage.

Why the change? It's pretty simple to see. Muhammad never had any real intention of keeping that agreement. How could he possibly accept being a guest once a year? Of course he couldn't accept that, he was merely deceiving the Meccans in order to buy time, and the Meccans, trying to be compromising and practical, didn't see through this deception.  
Muhammad was merely practicing "Hudna", which is the doctrine that allows Muslims to make short term agreements with the enemy to lull them to sleep, and give the Muslims the chance to get stronger. Then, the next year, when he had a huge army, the Meccans surrendered because Muhammad's army was simply too large for them. Muhammad must have been like...."oh well, you're stupid, you trusted me, hah hah hah".  There's your Profit.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Response:

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Are you Pazuzu  of free-minds?

Indeed. Hence the same name, haha.

AhmedBahgat wrote:
anyway, the Muslims accept other religions as long as they don't attack us, same should be happening today, the other faiths followers should accept Isalm as long as we don't attack them

I intended to post a lengthy response to this, but instead I shall refer you to Mutley’s post above mine, with reference to his last paragraph. The pagans did not attack Muhammad’s religion when they agreed to a treaty allowing him to return to Makkah for Hajj — yet he went in and destroyed the images of their religions!
AhmedBahgat

Re: Response:

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Are you Pazuzu  of free-minds?

Indeed. Hence the same name, haha.


Good to know, I still needed to confirm BTW

AhmedBahgat wrote:
anyway, the Muslims accept other religions as long as they don't attack us, same should be happening today, the other faiths followers should accept Isalm as long as we don't attack them


Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I intended to post a lengthy response to this, but instead I shall refer you to Mutley’s post above mine, with reference to his last paragraph.



Mute is a dog and he has been dismissed for life in the rubbish bin

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
 The pagans did not attack Muhammad’s religion when they agreed to a treaty allowing him to return to Makkah for Hajj — yet he went in and destroyed the images of their religions!



As far as I know what Mohammed destroyed is their crap of idols that they erected in the vicinity of Kaaba (the house of the One God) and he has 100% right to do so,now if you don't believe that there is only one god then that is your bloody problem not Mohammed's nor the Muslims's,  it seems you are still confused as you have been at Free-Minds, that is expected becvause FM is nothing but a shrking hole of ignorant

cheers
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

I do not feel ‘confused’ — I have come to a conclusion which I believe valid. I also believe I have an inherent right to take this view, but feel only fear and regret at leaving my old life behind, and of narrow–minded bigots who would no doubt kill me if they discovered I had renounced Islam.

EDIT: Wait… Free Minds? No. I don’t know that site. I post here at Free FAITH, and on another forum dedicated to those who have left the Islamic life behind, but yes I do call myself Pazuzu there.

OK, I’ve just looked up this Free Minds site you mentioned and I have nothing to do with the person called Pazuzu there. He lives in Kuwait and quotes from the film 300. I live in England and haven’t even watched that film! We simply happen to share a kickarse name! Wink
BMZ

Mutley wrote:
And? So what difference does that make? You didn't say.


And what did you understand after reading surahs 8 and 9 together, assuming that you did read? Laughing  

Mutley wrote:
Weren't the Muslims trying to convert Meccans to join them in Medina in order to raise an army?

How were the Meccans supposed to feel about this?


No, not at all.

The Meccans just felt threatened by the new Muslims proclaiming One Almighty God, which was shaking the foundations of their idolatory.  

BMZ wrote:

It was not a peaceful time and the pagan brutal and ruthless Meccans, along with the other "Ahlul Kitaab", were continuously persecuting and hammering Muhammad and his followers.


Mutley wrote:
Document it. So far, all you have is a claim that a brainwashing propagandist told you.


What documentation? Don't be silly! Read Islamic History and go figure. Looks to me like you are the gullible victim of an anti-Islam propaganda.  Laughing  

BMZ wrote:

Thus came the fair advance warning, giving the Meccans and their cahoots four months, the months in which even the pagans never fought and killed in their own culture. Those four months were scared in the pre-Islam culture.


Mutley wrote:
What are you talking about? I've never seen anybody blatantly invent the amount of things that you (or somebody else you talked to) seem to.


Many posters, who do not know much, pretend and always ask, "What are you talking about?" You know bloody well what I am talking about. You appear or choose not to understand.

BMZ wrote:

Rules of engagement were laid out clearly.


Mutley wrote:
Where?


Rolling Eyes Where?

In Qur'aan. Before putting down foolish comments, read and understand.


BMZ wrote:

There had to be no more any turning of the cheek, which was not working anyway and God did not want a Jesus to be made out of Muhammad, otherwise Islam would have died in infancy.  Very Happy


Mutley wrote:
Then why didn't Christianity? That should have died in it's infancy as well.


The Way of Jesus died. There was no such thing as Christianity in the days during and long after Jesus. Christianity started 315 years after Jesus was gone. Christianity was a new cult established , using Jesus as an anchor-man but has nothing to do with the ways of Real or True Jesus. Christianity was spread as a fraud. It is slowly dying out anyway.

Mutley wrote:
But according to the Book of Acts, Jesus did indeed send the Holy Spirit to his Apostles, and they began performing miraculous healings which allowed them to spread the religion. They didn't have an army like Muhammad did, and yet they spread it all over Greece and Rome without a single sword being drawn.


If Jesus had the powers, he would have healed the entire world, would have removed sin, pain, diseases, illnesses, death, sufferings, etc.  The Holy Spirit had already been into the world many times before the birth of Jesus. There is no record in the History of the world, showing those people doing miraculous healings, except in the NT. They used deceit by giving the Gentiles a triune god which sounded platable to the Greek and Roman Gentiles. That is why Trinity was coined and set up to please them and make the religion acceptable.

Mutley wrote:
What exactly did the ruthless pagans do?


Read Qur'aan and Islamic history. What does Hudna mean in Arabic? Do you know that?I have no comments on your other silly comments.  Laughing

BMZ
AhmedBahgat

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I do not feel ‘confused’ — I have come to a conclusion which I believe valid. I also believe I have an inherent right to take this view, but feel only fear and regret at leaving my old life behind, and of narrow–minded bigots who would no doubt kill me if they discovered I had renounced Islam.

EDIT: Wait… Free Minds? No. I don’t know that site. I post here at Free FAITH, and on another forum dedicated to those who have left the Islamic life behind, but yes I do call myself Pazuzu there.

OK, I’ve just looked up this Free Minds site you mentioned and I have nothing to do with the person called Pazuzu there. He lives in Kuwait and quotes from the film 300. I live in England and haven’t even watched that film! We simply happen to share a kickarse name! Wink



it seems you share more than a stupid name  Laughing
BMZ

Baal wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?


LOL! Baal,

How come you did not know about this story?

BMZ
 Laughing

Keep the one-liners to yourself Son.


Daddy Dude,  Laughing why do you always sound so stupid? Can't you really discuss something and hold an exchange of intellectual thoughts? I do find you amusing like your sister Ms.Westerner but I like substance. Give it a try.lol!
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Whatever, mate…

AhmedBahgat wrote:
it seems you share more than a stupid name  Laughing

I wouldn’t know. Like I said: I don’t post there. I hadn’t even encountered that site until yesterday, and I don’t agree with their founding principles (pure vilification of Islam, and viewing it as a deliberate hoax). I have no animosity to Islam as a concept over and above my rejection of Theistic notions themselves. I see the pagan origins of all the current three major middle eastern monotheistic religions commonly called ‘Abrahamic’.

And Pazuzu refers to a Mesopotamian Storm Demon whom people used to worship because he commanded the winds of the desert. They would supplicate to him to prevent him from acting! Seen as ‘evil’ He also, bizarrely, protected pregnant women from evil! In fact, using the same techniques muslims use to ‘prove’ the Bible predicts the coming of Muhammad, and however else they twist the Qur’an to fit into current scientific understanding, I can take passages from the Qur’an and show they refer to Pazuzu Razz.
Baal

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop,


How did you know this cute little story?


LOL! Baal,

How come you did not know about this story?

BMZ
 Laughing

Keep the one-liners to yourself Son.


Daddy Dude,  Laughing why do you always sound so stupid? Can't you really discuss something and hold an exchange of intellectual thoughts? I do find you amusing like your sister Ms.Westerner but I like substance. Give it a try.lol!

Here we go again. I asked Ahmed the question. Not you. And he answered it to my satisfaction. He answered with the only apologetic (stupid) answer  that he can answer with.

Ahmed, a guy that claims the hadith writers are mushriks, had to use the hadith to make a point. That was the goal of my question to him. Of course, Ahmed understood the goal of my question because, I guess,  his IQ is higher then the Egyptian average of 83-87.

Of course, my goal was not to *learn* more about the cute story. First: I happened to know this story. Second: If I do not know about a cute little story, I will look it up before talking about it.

I am not a muslim BMZ. Whenever confronted with an uncomfortable story, most muslims will try to buy time by going: "Where did you get that story?" or "What is your source?". So I can understand your confusion seeing that you as a muslim deal with muslims a lot.

And you seem to have a problem with "Turning the other cheek". You say that the Christian failed by turning the other cheek?

The Christians failed? Are you nuts?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Look what I found…

AhmedBahgat wrote:
the Muslims accept other religions as long as they don't attack us, same should be happening today


Funny you should say that since the Sahih Bukhari volumes (books of ‘authentic traditions’ of Muhammad, this one compiled by Bukhari) contain this interesting pericope:

Quote:
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 435:
Narrated Al Bara:

The Prophet said to Hassan, “Lampoon them (i.e. the pagans) and Gabriel is with you.”


If you’ve missed the significance of this then let me make it plain. Here the ultimate muslim, the epitome of Islam whom all muslims supposedly want to emulate, specifically states that muslims should mock the religion of others, and likens it to having the Spirit of God (as the Qur’an refers to Gabriel) with them! Shocked
AhmedBahgat

Re: Look what I found…

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
the Muslims accept other religions as long as they don't attack us, same should be happening today


Funny you should say that since the Sahih Bukhari volumes (books of ‘authentic traditions’ of Muhammad, this one compiled by Bukhari) contain this interesting pericope:



Hmm, you can shove bukhari up the Azhar sheikh's arse

Quote:
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 435:
Narrated Al Bara:

The Prophet said to Hassan, “Lampoon them (i.e. the pagans) and Gabriel is with you.”


Dismissed

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
If you’ve missed the significance of this then let me make it plain. Here the ultimate muslim, the epitome of Islam whom all muslims supposedly want to emulate, specifically states that muslims should mock the religion of others, and likens it to having the Spirit of God (as the Qur’an refers to Gabriel) with them! Shocked


Dismissed
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Hahahaha! That about says it all for Islamic ‘logic’. Even the muslim philosophers of bygone ages would at least consider the arguments at hand!
Always_Faithful

Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop, this is when these verses in Sura 9 was revealed (sure 9 is the last sura that was revealed which means it was revealed at the last days of Mohammad before he died, we also  notice that it does not have the Bismillah (in the name of Allah....), some say that it does not have the Bismillah because it is full of threats to those Kafiroon and their filthy act around the Kabba, but somehow I can't buy this because the Quran in many of the other suras that start with the Bismillah is still threatening the Kafiroon big times, anyway the objective and the message is clear and it was to reclaim the Kabba the house of Allah and free it from all these filthy acts, looking at all the verses that I brought in here we will see the picture crystal clear, I will list the verses in English then the original language in Arabic, and my walkthrough will follow:


So you'll trust historians when it suits you? The hadith is as much history as any of the sources you use for this pagan act, and the Qur'an in no way says anything about this, so you are using outside sources to add to the Qur'an's message - something you are usually vehemently opposed to doing.
AhmedBahgat

Always_Faithful wrote:
Quote:
9:29  is related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, the Kabba was a place for all to come to worship God and also to do business (trading), even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever they want, most of them used to go around the Kabba as a method of worshipping God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba) naked, exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras every year around the flawed world. When Mohammad reclaimed the Kabba, this filthy act by the kafiroon had to stop, this is when these verses in Sura 9 was revealed (sure 9 is the last sura that was revealed which means it was revealed at the last days of Mohammad before he died, we also  notice that it does not have the Bismillah (in the name of Allah....), some say that it does not have the Bismillah because it is full of threats to those Kafiroon and their filthy act around the Kabba, but somehow I can't buy this because the Quran in many of the other suras that start with the Bismillah is still threatening the Kafiroon big times, anyway the objective and the message is clear and it was to reclaim the Kabba the house of Allah and free it from all these filthy acts, looking at all the verses that I brought in here we will see the picture crystal clear, I will list the verses in English then the original language in Arabic, and my walkthrough will follow:


So you'll trust historians when it suits you? The hadith is as much history as any of the sources you use for this pagan act, and the Qur'an in no way says anything about this, so you are using outside sources to add to the Qur'an's message - something you are usually vehemently opposed to doing.


You are wrong again

I trust historian when it suits the Quran, this is because for me the Quran is the word of truth, however the historians words are nothihng but conjecttures

now I can use any souce as long as what it says is qualified by what the Quran says

got it, pal

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