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All_Brains

A needy God?

Another one from my blog.

Quote:
I have always struggled with the idea that there was a conscious God before everything and anything, then he created life as we know it today!

This creates a big question for me; " A needy God?"

Some words can only be interpreted and understood through their relationship with other words and meanings. For example the word King can only be completely understood through the function of a king, which is to rule over people.

For sound to exist in its complete form there has to be some listening ears, so that the sound can be heard, acknowledged and may be appreciated. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

A lonely God roaming the universe with extreme powers and abilities and no one around to appreciate the might of this lonely force! This must have been tough!

The word God can only be understood through worshipers. Other beings who can actually witness this force and acknowledge its existence.

Could God have created us for this very purpose? To be worshiped, acknowledged and loved?
This notion creates a predicament that God is just as needy as us, therefore his divinity is nothing but a fairy tale. He is just one of us!

On the other hand you hear religious people everyday say that we should be thankful to God for he has given us life. Let's analyse this, shall we!

God creates us out of nothingness to experience life and be put to the test. The vast majority according to the Abrahamic faiths will end up in a eternal torture of hellfire!!

Based on this scenario how can a merciful and an all-wise God creates beings out of nothingness just to torture them for eternity??? I am sure they would choose to go back to the state of nothingness they originated from!

It seems to me that our dear lord is nothing but an old fashioned sadist that takes pleasure in inflecting pain on others for no reason other than they have chosen not to believe in him???
The big ego has been dented and we should suffer for that, even if we did not ask to be brought to existence.

Before we even think which is the one true religion, let's first establish the reason for creation and what kind of God is worthy of our trust and love.

I know this one is a phony!
norwegian

A good article, All Brains.

I was just watching a rerun of the US Republican Youtube-CNN debate where one of the questions thrown to the presidential hopefuls was, do you believe the bible? Was watching them tap-dance and weasel through that one. LOL!

A needy god? Yes, created by needy people. People who don't believe they are capable of helping themselves.

A question I'd ask is, why are people so needy? Do they believe they are really that weak?

Before Mo, Jesus or any of the Abrahamic prophets were born, were humans capable of being happy? Of course. The fact is, the Abrahamic god is a latecomer to the scene. The latter day attempts to retrofit sages like Confucius and the Buddha as lost prophets is laughable but I can't help but admire the sheer marketing genius behind what probably followed.

One timeless fact about our existence is that resources are always scarce and life is a struggle. People's confidence in themselves are always shaky. Its easy to tip them into believing they need saviors, that they are by design incapable of helping themselves.

A savior-leader is always popular. Some are more clever than others. The ultimate savior-leader will have no competitor. A great way to keep challengers at bay is to do a mind job. Spin a yarn about out-of-this-world miracles and an all-powerful god. Create an aura of mysticism by keeping a measured distance. Have a middleman to create focus. Have a face to go with the idea, a brand ambassador. Have a good book to keep everyone focused.

You now have everyone's attention and you have control over what god has to be - whether needy or pushy. Push the right buttons, dispense confidence to weak minds and the crowd will give you whatever you want in return. Brilliant.

This old formula of scoundrels has worked countless times. Absent, fickle, needy gods are the 1,000 pound gorillas in the room that nobody ever sees. As long as people believe they are powerless to help themselves, there will always be a market for this scam.
BMZ

The Neanderthaal from the very North has arrived

norwegian wrote:
A good article, All Brains.

I was just watching a rerun of the US Republican Youtube-CNN debate where one of the questions thrown to the presidential hopefuls was, do you believe the bible? Was watching them tap-dance and weasel through that one. LOL!

A needy god? Yes, created by needy people. People who don't believe they are capable of helping themselves.

A question I'd ask is, why are people so needy? Do they believe they are really that weak?

Before Mo, Jesus or any of the Abrahamic prophets were born, were humans capable of being happy? Of course. The fact is, the Abrahamic god is a latecomer to the scene. The latter day attempts to retrofit sages like Confucius and the Buddha as lost prophets is laughable but I can't help but admire the sheer marketing genius behind what probably followed.

One timeless fact about our existence is that resources are always scarce and life is a struggle. People's confidence in themselves are always shaky. Its easy to tip them into believing they need saviors, that they are by design incapable of helping themselves.

A savior-leader is always popular. Some are more clever than others. The ultimate savior-leader will have no competitor. A great way to keep challengers at bay is to do a mind job. Spin a yarn about out-of-this-world miracles and an all-powerful god. Create an aura of mysticism by keeping a measured distance. Have a middleman to create focus. Have a face to go with the idea, a brand ambassador. Have a good book to keep everyone focused.

You now have everyone's attention and you have control over what god has to be - whether needy or pushy. Push the right buttons, dispense confidence to weak minds and the crowd will give you whatever you want in return. Brilliant.

This old formula of scoundrels has worked countless times. Absent, fickle, needy gods are the 1,000 pound gorillas in the room that nobody ever sees. As long as people believe they are powerless to help themselves, there will always be a market for this scam.


I am always amazed at the insanity of a human mind.

BMZ
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

I think it pertinent to record my thoughts here as opposed to creating a separate thread. I encountered this equally brilliant and insightful post regarding a needy god on another forum and would like to quote it here:

Quote:
Many theists throughout the ages have exerted their efforts towards proving that a god exists. In order to accomplish this task, they have resorted to whittling down their doctrine to the barest essence so as to allow their god to be proven. Some definitions of god that have been posited include general ones like "An intelligence that created the universe".

But it seems to me that proving God's existence really shouldn't be the ultimate aim of theists. The ultimate aim should be proving that a god exists that requires belief and worship. For even if God exists, why should anyone care? You can provide the most airtight argument for the existence of a "Supreme Being" and it would not make one whit of a difference - people can just intellectually acknowledge his existence and go on living their lives as if he didn't.

So, if we assume that God exists, what evidence is there that such a god would require belief and worship, other than claims in holy texts? Personally, common sense tells me that an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being would have no need to be ego-stroked by a bunch of lowly creatures that he created for kicks. He should have no desire to have a "personal relationship" with us. After all, doesn't the concept of perfection entail emotional self-sufficiency? Can an emotionally- and socially-needy entity be considered "perfect"?

Furthermore, even if we allow that for some unknown reason, God requires worship, isn't he artificially creating more neediness each time he creates a human being? Let's assume that God wants every living person to worship him. However, each time God creates a new person, there is a high chance that that person would not believe in him or worship him. In fact, God should place each new human in a fundamentalist Christian family to ensure the highest rate of success - but no, he lets many babies get born in starving Africa, where they often die before they reach one year old with nothing at all to show for their life. The entire process of human creation seems futile and desultory.

Thus, it appears that theists have missed the point all along. Whether or not a god exists is really immaterial if such a being does not require anything from us. Atheists can continue disavowing his existence with no consequence. The crux of the matter is whether or not such a being requires our worship and attention. And other than bland assertions in holy texts, there isn't any evidence so far that a god worthy of the appellation would need anything from us - logic itself dictates otherwise.


So… Why would a deity REQUIRE worship, eh? And does doing so make that deity more anthropomorphic (having needs) and, thus, not omnipotent at all?
brainout

I wholly agree, Pazuzu.  Couldn't agree more.  To me there's only ONE valid criterion, and worship isn't really it. Love is it.

If "God" exists, He must be gorgeous.  Someone you WANT to know.  And if that's true, then this Person(s) will "get in touch with you", because He'd have LOVED making you, in the first place.

So scrap all neediness, religion, etc.  If God exists, He's as near as your next thought, and the objective is ENJOYMENT OF INTIMACY, never neediness.  For love and need are mutually exclusive.
Mutley

Re: A needy God?

[quote="All_Brains"]Another one from my blog.

Quote:
I have always struggled with the idea that there was a conscious God before everything and anything, then he created life as we know it today!

This creates a big question for me; " A needy God?"


Some Eastern thought describes it as the dancer and the dance. God is the dancer, creation is the dance. Why does a dancer dance? Because that's what a dancer does.

All_Brains wrote:

Some words can only be interpreted and understood through their relationship with other words and meanings. For example the word King can only be completely understood through the function of a king, which is to rule over people.

For sound to exist in its complete form there has to be some listening ears, so that the sound can be heard, acknowledged and may be appreciated.


Whoops, breaks on. You spoke of words and titles or labels in the first part, and then you spoke of a physical actuality in the second part. Personally, I believe in a complete existence of things that exist completely on their own whether someone is perceiving it or not. I believe that perception creates nothing, and only has the potential to distort things that already exist, whether perceived or not or regardless of what label we want to slap on them..

All_Brains wrote:

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?


Yes. In fact, at first they were going to use a chain reaction of molecules, which is what sound is, for cell phones. Knowing that wouldn't be fast enough, they cleverly created a chain reaction between the electrons within the molecules, and then, communications were traveling at the speed of light. But, getting back to the point, sound is a chain reaction of molecules that still exist regardless of someone perceiving them or not.

All_Brains wrote:

A lonely God roaming the universe with extreme powers and abilities and no one around to appreciate the might of this lonely force! This must have been tough!


A dancer who hasn't thought of what to dance yet.

All_Brains wrote:

The word God can only be understood through worshipers. Other beings who can actually witness this force and acknowledge its existence.


The word God can be understood by many non believers and misunderstood by many believers.

All_Brains wrote:

Could God have created us for this very purpose? To be worshiped, acknowledged and loved?


Could be. Or we could merely say that this is what a dancer does, it dances. Or, we could say, I have no idea. Or, we could look at human reasons for wanting babies. I would obviously be stupid if I told you that I knew for sure. There could even be additional feelings involved, that we are not capable of feeling yet or have never seen yet. Something besides even love. Who knows? We can only feel what we've been given the capability to feel. That's why animals can't laugh. Apparently, they're simply not capable of it, but we know that laughter and humor are very real things, or at least as real as any other emotions we have.

All_Brains wrote:

This notion creates a predicament that God is just as needy as us, therefore his divinity is nothing but a fairy tale. He is just one of us!


I like the dancer and the dance better.

All_Brains wrote:

On the other hand you hear religious people everyday say that we should be thankful to God for he has given us life. Let's analyse this, shall we!

God creates us out of nothingness to experience life and be put to the test.


The Hebrew and Christian traditions never really explain why God created us. It never specifically said that God created man to test man. The most I've heard was from Catholic Catechism which said we were made to glorify God. Very ambiguous.

All_Brains wrote:

The vast majority according to the Abrahamic faiths will end up in a eternal torture of hellfire!!


The eternal part is not entirely clear. Most of that actually seems to come from Dante's Inferno.

All_Brains wrote:

Based on this scenario how can a merciful and an all-wise God creates beings out of nothingness just to torture them for eternity??? I am sure they would choose to go back to the state of nothingness they originated from!


Absolutely a true logical pickle. I'd answer that, but I put out a debate feeler about this very question, which has yet to be responded to. So I don't want to give answers away. But I answered this question in another thread, or at least gave you my idea for the only way the problem could be circumvented.

All_Brains wrote:

It seems to me that our dear lord is nothing but an old fashioned sadist that takes pleasure in inflecting pain on others for no reason other than they have chosen not to believe in him???
The big ego has been dented and we should suffer for that, even if we did not ask to be brought to existence.


I tend to think of it that we are here to develop our souls, and if they don't develop, they don't continue. Jesus kept on talking about bearing fruit and harvesting.
Tvebak

Hi A_B

I was lookin for a specific comic-picture I will post later if I find it, but then I stumbled over this comic: freethunk.net

Under the comic they wrote the following which made me think of your blog about the needy "god":

Quote:
With regard to the Big Bang it's simple: if God can always exist so can the matter and energy that supplied the Big Bang. So which sounds more reasonable? Matter and energy compressing until it explodes and over billions of years the universe forms from the debris; or an intelligence with a major ego that feels the need to create the universe so that humans can live on one planet and worship him (the rest of the planets are eye candy) ? Oh and this intelligence also likes to kill his own creation like a child with toys (flooding, earthquakes, plagues, battles). Oh-oh, and this intelligence likes to make donkeys talk.


Well put  Wink
AhmedBahgat

Re: The Neanderthaal from the very North has arrived

BMZ wrote:
norwegian wrote:
A good article, All Brains.

I was just watching a rerun of the US Republican Youtube-CNN debate where one of the questions thrown to the presidential hopefuls was, do you believe the bible? Was watching them tap-dance and weasel through that one. LOL!

A needy god? Yes, created by needy people. People who don't believe they are capable of helping themselves.

A question I'd ask is, why are people so needy? Do they believe they are really that weak?

Before Mo, Jesus or any of the Abrahamic prophets were born, were humans capable of being happy? Of course. The fact is, the Abrahamic god is a latecomer to the scene. The latter day attempts to retrofit sages like Confucius and the Buddha as lost prophets is laughable but I can't help but admire the sheer marketing genius behind what probably followed.

One timeless fact about our existence is that resources are always scarce and life is a struggle. People's confidence in themselves are always shaky. Its easy to tip them into believing they need saviors, that they are by design incapable of helping themselves.

A savior-leader is always popular. Some are more clever than others. The ultimate savior-leader will have no competitor. A great way to keep challengers at bay is to do a mind job. Spin a yarn about out-of-this-world miracles and an all-powerful god. Create an aura of mysticism by keeping a measured distance. Have a middleman to create focus. Have a face to go with the idea, a brand ambassador. Have a good book to keep everyone focused.

You now have everyone's attention and you have control over what god has to be - whether needy or pushy. Push the right buttons, dispense confidence to weak minds and the crowd will give you whatever you want in return. Brilliant.

This old formula of scoundrels has worked countless times. Absent, fickle, needy gods are the 1,000 pound gorillas in the room that nobody ever sees. As long as people believe they are powerless to help themselves, there will always be a market for this scam.


I am always amazed at the insanity of a human mind.

BMZ



Salam mate

I say those freaks who insist on calling prophet Mohammed names, are the lowest fo the lows and should be dismissed, donlt allow them to drag you into their crap, just dismiss them, this is my advice from a younger brother to his big brother

Salam mate
HomoErectus

brainout wrote:
I wholly agree, Pazuzu.  Couldn't agree more.  To me there's only ONE valid criterion, and worship isn't really it. Love is it.



Exactly so !
Believing that praying/worshipping would get one "closer to god" is just another example of wishful thinking !


Quote:

If "God" exists, He must be gorgeous.  Someone you WANT to know.  And if that's true, then this Person(s) will "get in touch with you", because He'd have LOVED making you, in the first place.



Again, I agree with you - IF "god" exists...

And I'm also convinced about his being "Love" !

It would not make any sense to have a vengeful, hating "god" !

Why hate what you have made ?

[all provided, there is a "god", but who knows...]


What always makes mo wonder, is the "just in case" behaviour of the muslims we meet on forae [although, probably lots of christians have the same set-up in their heads !], many of them do not really believe in this "allah-god", but the FEAR has been so deeply implanted in them, they behave as if religion was an insurance-company - "I don't really believe in the words of muhammad, and his god, but WHAT IF the quran is right ?" - so, they keep on being believers, just in case, they do not want to feed the fire in "hell", so they behave religiously, just in case...

THIS is totally ridiculous !


Quote:

So scrap all neediness, religion, etc.  If God exists, He's as near as your next thought, and the objective is ENJOYMENT OF INTIMACY, never neediness.  For love and need are mutually exclusive.



And if this "god" would want to communicate with me, he would surely do it !

I also think that the one and overwhelming objective is, to ENJOY the life we have... not sink down on our knees in FEAR !
brainout

Thanks for posting this, Homo E.  I've been kinda sleepless (it's 4am now), and my BIG question to God for going on 35 years now is, "WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO YOURSELF?"  For if we can't stand the idea of hell, how much more, a Loving God?

I've got the answer now, have had it for going on seven years.  But I still keep asking the question, because it's hard for me to understand HOW God could Love THAT much.  See, hell is cancellable, always.  (Details are in here.)

That's not the answer I expected -- though if Love is Absolute then it's the only answer possible -- so now it's harder to live with the answer, lol.  So you're still lucky -- you don't have an answer yet!

Anyway, I'm not saying all this to convince you.  Only, to agree that LOVE is the only answer, and fear is completely out, 1 John 4:18-19!
Mutley

Brainout, if God wouldn't do anything for you, no peace, no afterlife...., would you still love God? And more importantly, why would you?
brainout

Why does the Humanity of Christ, Mutley?  "wa hu meholal mi peshaynu" -- "He was stabbed with javelin pierces for our rebellion" -- not exactly peace there, huh.  It's not as if that moment ever dies, to Omniscience.

A love for a Person so great you want to be stabbed?  You need the pour-out, as an outlet?

His Person is so gorgeous, it makes one want to have "the fellowship of His Sufferings" as Paul puts it in Philippians 3.

Since you know all that Bible stuff too, I'll not go on with the answer.   I submit to you that if a person loves anything or anyone solely because of the goodies they get, it's not love at all.  Love begins when there is NOTHING desirable about the relationship, but the love is there anyway, Romans 5:8.
Mutley

brainout wrote:
Why does the Humanity of Christ, Mutley?


I don't know. Tell me why.

brainout wrote:

"wa hu meholal mi peshaynu" -- "He was stabbed with javelin pierces for our rebellion" -- not exactly peace there, huh.  It's not as if that moment ever dies, to Omniscience.

A love for a Person so great you want to be stabbed?  You need the pour-out, as an outlet?


What??? Where are you going with this?

brainout wrote:

His Person is so gorgeous, it makes one want to have "the fellowship of His Sufferings" as Paul puts it in Philippians 3.


Gorgeous?

brainout wrote:

Since you know all that Bible stuff too, I'll not go on with the answer.   I submit to you that if a person loves anything or anyone solely because of the goodies they get, it's not love at all.


ding ding ding. right answer.

brainout wrote:

Love begins when there is NOTHING desirable about the relationship, but the love is there anyway, Romans 5:8.


I missed that. Good one. Thanks. Do you know what Romans 5:8 is really saying? Can you explain your interpretation of it?
brainout

Mutley, I know you like engaging people in long and drawn out sidebars, but it's really hard to post in these forums that way.  So I'll not quote you and intersperse the reply.

I really think my answer to you is clear, and you want to delve into it so that we go off on a tangent, yet again.  I'm sure you have noble reasons for wanting to do so, but my own time is limited, alas.

So I'll beg the reader to read Romans 5 for himself, and to read Hebrews Chapter 10, where the answer is elaborated to its ultimate conclusion.  Both chapters deliberately demonstrate the fulfillment of the eternity-past LOVE contract of Isaiah 53:10-12.

God-to-God contract of Love, doing it the hard way because of Love to Pour Out for Each other, one of them (Son) taking on Humanity and in that Humanity becoming the "asham" (Hebrew red heifer offering, SUBSTITUTE FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE) in order to express His Love for Father, "if (im) He will appoint (tasim) His Soul (naphesho) as a substitute for sin (asham)" in Isa53:10.  Those eight Hebrew syllables (im tasim asham naphesho) summarize the entire purpose and goal of creation, as the third clause in Isa53:10 notes.
Mutley

Oh God, sorry I asked. Why does everybody have to complicate things?
brainout

Golly, Mutley:  the one complicating things, is you.  You can be so brilliant and incisive at times, it blows me away.  But when you get churlish, I gotta RUN away.  That's what I'm doing now.  The reader can decide for himself, the reasoning of the topic at hand.
Mutley

Sorry I hurt your feelings.
brainout

No, you didn't hurt my feelings, you are trying to keep making comments so I will reply, and I've figured that out.  Bye now....

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