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All_Brains

All_Brains Vs. Ahmed Bahgat

Hello Ahmed

This is a post to get things going. I will post my first point of debate in an hour or so.

Regards
All_Brains
All_Brains

Dear all

Ahmed and I are exhausted tonight! We will both tomorrow resume our discussion.

Regards all.
AhmedBahgat

Re: All_Brains Vs. Ahmed Bahgat

All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed

This is a post to get things going. I will post my first point of debate in an hour or so.

Regards
All_Brains


Hello A_B

Thanks for the invitaion, while I;m busy and currently suffering from the flu, I will do my best to be prompt and reply asap to any issue you raise

here is how I would like the shape of this discussion to be:

1) No personal insults or mocking
2) No degradation to Allah or any of His messengers or prophets

3) You can mock the Quran if you wish but you must provide your merit for doing so

4) I'm not required to prove my belief nor I ask anyone to prove his/hers, it is the people who want to discuss my belief and I will give them the opportunity of doing so, this means any mocking to my belief won't be overlooked, I believe this is fair, because I;m not interested to discuss matter with those who only want to make fun of my belief, for me anyone have the limited freedom to believe in whatever, a cow, a human, a planet, or an imaginary god, therefore targetting my faith out of all differnt faithes on earth will be considered an act of perpetration and according to the Quran, I should never dialogue with such people, it;s eaiither I leave them or I fight them and believe me I will fight and fight hard, therefor the matter is all in the hands of all those who ant to dicuss my religion (my belief) with me, if they respect themselves and act professionally, I won't have anyother option but to reply the same, if the mock and make fun of my belief then I will come back hitting really hard

5) This discussion maybe about the Quran or anything that criticise the Quran, I don't want to mix it with any hadith discussion, regarding any hadith discussion however, I only discuss if they are required or not, I don't discuss any morals, teachings, allegation, authenticity and all such waste of time matters in any hadith unless I'm forced by any kafir or mushrik to do so and again I will come back hard turning them to shreds, in a way dicussing the hadith with me or even with any hadith worshipper will bring no fruit to any one, so we better avoide it

if you would like to add any other suggestions, be my guest, I would like to say that we should allow a bit of sense of humour and some catchy words, I mean by catchy, like dumb, idiot, etc etc, as long as no offence will be taken and no hard feeling will be left, it is not like we are in kindergarten

Salam
All_Brains

Re: All_Brains Vs. Ahmed Bahgat

AhmedBahgat wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed

This is a post to get things going. I will post my first point of debate in an hour or so.

Regards
All_Brains


Hello A_B

Thanks for the invitaion, while I;m busy and currently suffering from the flu, I will do my best to be prompt and reply asap to any issue you raise

here is how I would like the shape of this discussion to be:

1) No personal insults or mocking
2) No degradation to Allah or any of His messengers or prophets

3) You can mock the Quran if you wish but you must provide your merit for doing so

4) I'm not required to prove my belief nor I ask anyone to prove his/hers, it is the people who want to discuss my belief and I will give them the opportunity of doing so, this means any mocking to my belief won't be overlooked, I believe this is fair, because I;m not interested to discuss matter with those who only want to make fun of my belief, for me anyone have the limited freedom to believe in whatever, a cow, a human, a planet, or an imaginary god, therefore targetting my faith out of all differnt faithes on earth will be considered an act of perpetration and according to the Quran, I should never dialogue with such people, it;s eaiither I leave them or I fight them and believe me I will fight and fight hard, therefor the matter is all in the hands of all those who ant to dicuss my religion (my belief) with me, if they respect themselves and act professionally, I won't have anyother option but to reply the same, if the mock and make fun of my belief then I will come back hitting really hard

5) This discussion maybe about the Quran or anything that criticise the Quran, I don't want to mix it with any hadith discussion, regarding any hadith discussion however, I only discuss if they are required or not, I don't discuss any morals, teachings, allegation, authenticity and all such waste of time matters in any hadith unless I'm forced by any kafir or mushrik to do so and again I will come back hard turning them to shreds, in a way dicussing the hadith with me or even with any hadith worshipper will bring no fruit to any one, so we better avoide it

if you would like to add any other suggestions, be my guest, I would like to say that we should allow a bit of sense of humour and some catchy words, I mean by catchy, like dumb, idiot, etc etc, as long as no offence will be taken and no hard feeling will be left, it is not like we are in kindergarten

Salam


Hello Ahmed

As you know me I never insult or mock, it's not in my nature. I also promise not to pass any derogatory comments onto your God, Muhammad or even his alleged book.

I am a big fan of humour and a little bit of it brightens the heated debate and remind us all of our humanity.

I am thick skinned and you can call my ideas idiotic or dumb of you think so.

I have been thinking about this and I thought I could post according to the sequence of the surahs, so my first point of discussion will start with "Suraht Al-Baqara". I will pose my first question re the Quran in general in the next post.
All_Brains

Point of discssion # 1

Dear Ahmed

When and how do you think the Quran we have today was first compiled?

And how can you be so sure that the words within have not been changed at the point of compilation?

Regards
All_Brains
AhmedBahgat

Point of discssion # 1

All_Brains wrote:
Dear Ahmed


Salam A_B

All_Brains wrote:
When and how do you think the Quran we have today was first compiled?


If I take it that you mean by compiling the Quran is collecting the Quran in one book, then it was never the task of anyone but Allah to compile the Quran in one book, this is what He said, letís have a look:

16: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,
17: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.
18: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
19: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

[The Quran ; 75:16:19]

لَا تُحَرِّكْ بِهِ لِسَانَكَ لِتَعْجَلَ بِهِ (16)
إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ (17)
فَإِذَا قَرَأْنَاهُ فَاتَّبِعْ قُرْآنَهُ (1Cool
ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا بَيَانَهُ (19)

-> The prophet was a bit worried that he may forget the words been taught to him, so he used to keep saying the words quickly, sort of to memorise it, Allah told him that he does not need to worry about that because collecting it (i.e. indirectly reserving it) is UPON Him: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it, the Ďití in the verse is referring to the Quran, then Allah told him why he should not do that: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it, i.e. Allah was always in charge to collect/compile the Quran in one book, this does not mean that He came down and collected it, rather HE MADE OTHER PEOPLE OR CREATURES to do it, remember the verse that I showed about killing, where Allah says that we didnít kill them rather He did, that is exactly the same, Uthman didnít collect the Quran rather Allah made him to do it and this means that Allah was in charge in collecting the Quran, see how in the next verse Allah says the following: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation., of course Allah does not physically recite the Quran to us rather He makes others to do it, and again because He made them to do it, then it is Him Who did it. the final verse also tells us that explaining the Quran is on Allah as well: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it. and again, it does not mean that Allah will come down to us and explain the Quran to us, rather He makes others to do it.

From the above I believe without a doubt that Allah caused Uthman to do it, therefore to answer your question, the Quran was compiled during Uthman time and it was compiled the way he was made to do it. and since then we can see that the Quran stayed unchanged, this is a miracle on its own and indeed confirms the above verses, that it was Allah Who collected it and it is Allah who is going to explain it, see how the above verses were directed at the prophet himself, i.e. explaining the Quran was not even a task for prophet Mohammed

All_Brains wrote:
And how can you be so sure that the words within have not been changed at the point of compilation?


well, if it was the humans who did it, Iím sure they would have argued with each other and everyone would have gone with what makes them joyful, for me because Allah was in charge of compiling it then I have to be assured within my belief that it is the exact words He wants all humanity from Uthman time to read, if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up

All_Brains wrote:

Regards
All_Brains


Cheers
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:


-> The prophet was a bit worried that he may forget the words been taught to him, so he used to keep saying the words quickly, sort of to memorise it, Allah told him that he does not need to worry about that because collecting it (i.e. indirectly reserving it) is UPON Him: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it, the Ďití in the verse is referring to the Quran, then Allah told him why he should not do that: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it, i.e. Allah was always in charge to collect/compile the Quran in one book, this does not mean that He came down and collected it, rather HE MADE OTHER PEOPLE OR CREATURES to do it, remember the verse that I showed about killing, where Allah says that we didnít kill them rather He did, that is exactly the same, Uthman didnít collect the Quran rather Allah made him to do it and this means that Allah was in charge in collecting the Quran, see how in the next verse Allah says the following: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation., of course Allah does not physically recite the Quran to us rather He makes others to do it, and again because He made them to do it, then it is Him Who did it. the final verse also tells us that explaining the Quran is on Allah as well: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it. and again, it does not mean that Allah will come down to us and explain the Quran to us, rather He makes others to do it.

From the above I believe without a doubt that Allah caused Uthman to do it, therefore to answer your question, the Quran was compiled during Uthman time and it was compiled the way he was made to do it. and since then we can see that the Quran stayed unchanged, this is a miracle on its own and indeed confirms the above verses, that it was Allah Who collected it and it is Allah who is going to explain it, see how the above verses were directed at the prophet himself, i.e. explaining the Quran was not even a task for prophet Mohammed


Cool! So you believe Uthman collected the Quran upon Allah's inspiration. Why do you think the Quran was not compiled in a book during Muhammad's life or the first two khalifas? Also, why did Uthman burn many surahs and other versions of the Quran?

Quote:
well, if it was the humans who did it, Iím sure they would have argued with each other and everyone would have gone with what makes them joyful, for me because Allah was in charge of compiling it then I have to be assured within my belief that it is the exact words He wants all humanity from Uthman time to read, if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up.


1. So if you believe that humans were responsible for compiling the Quran, how would you know for sure that some did not forget the Quran? Had corrupt nature? Wanted to apply their own agenda?
Quote:


if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up.


2. Ahmed, examine your above words up here! I am disputing with you the fact the Quran could be man-made and your proof is a verse from the disputed Quran!!

How do you know that the above verse wasn't inserted on purpose to get you to believe what you believe?

Also Ahmed as a psychologist I have to tell you that the brain and speech usually slow down when trying to retain and memorise, it's a natural brain reaction. I have never seen anyone memorise by repeating words fast!!
AhmedBahgat

AhmedBahgat wrote:
-> The prophet was a bit worried that he may forget the words been taught to him, so he used to keep saying the words quickly, sort of to memorise it, Allah told him that he does not need to worry about that because collecting it (i.e. indirectly reserving it) is UPON Him: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it, the Ďití in the verse is referring to the Quran, then Allah told him why he should not do that: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it, i.e. Allah was always in charge to collect/compile the Quran in one book, this does not mean that He came down and collected it, rather HE MADE OTHER PEOPLE OR CREATURES to do it, remember the verse that I showed about killing, where Allah says that we didnít kill them rather He did, that is exactly the same, Uthman didnít collect the Quran rather Allah made him to do it and this means that Allah was in charge in collecting the Quran, see how in the next verse Allah says the following: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation., of course Allah does not physically recite the Quran to us rather He makes others to do it, and again because He made them to do it, then it is Him Who did it. the final verse also tells us that explaining the Quran is on Allah as well: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it. and again, it does not mean that Allah will come down to us and explain the Quran to us, rather He makes others to do it.

From the above I believe without a doubt that Allah caused Uthman to do it, therefore to answer your question, the Quran was compiled during Uthman time and it was compiled the way he was made to do it. and since then we can see that the Quran stayed unchanged, this is a miracle on its own and indeed confirms the above verses, that it was Allah Who collected it and it is Allah who is going to explain it, see how the above verses were directed at the prophet himself, i.e. explaining the Quran was not even a task for prophet Mohammed


All_Brains wrote:
Cool! So you believe Uthman collected the Quran upon Allah's inspiration.


Salam A_B

Not just I believe in that rather I firmly believe to be the case, Allah may inspire any human if He desires

All_Brains wrote:
Why do you think the Quran was not compiled in a book during Muhammad's life or the first two khalifas?


There might be many reasons for that according to Allah plan, something beyond my capabilities to know, however as far as I believe there was a complete version of the Quran that was kept with one of his wives, but regardless of that, it may be a test from Allah to see what the people after Mohammed will do, letís look at the following verse:

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed before him; so if he died or is killed, you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will not harm Allah a thing, and Allah will reward the grateful.

[The Quran ; 3:144]

وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ أَفَإِن مَّاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَى أَعْقَابِكُمْ وَمَن يَنقَلِبْ عَلَىَ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَن يَضُرَّ اللّهَ شَيْئًا وَسَيَجْزِي اللّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ (144)

-> †See the huge warning from Allah regarding what the believers may do after Mohammed death: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed before him; so if he died or is killed, you turn back upon your heels?, clearly Mohammed death is a fitnah (a test) to those who lived with him and continued to live after his death, some of them indeed turned back upon their heels, that is why Allah is telling them: And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will not harm Allah a thing

The message from the above verse is clear that Mohammed is a messenger exactly as those messengers passed away before him, and this is where the test might have been planned by Allah regarding the Quran, I believe all Allah test is to expose the freaks to themselves on the JD, i.e. on the JD the freaks wonít be able to deny their crimes

All_Brains wrote:
Also, why did Uthman burn many surahs and other versions of the Quran?


Not really sure that there was other versions, but I will accept that there was some discrepancies in the memory of those who memorised it and wrote some of it down on whatever, now I believe that according to Allah plan of reserving it unchanged, all other discrepancies that might have been written down by others without any authority from Allah †must be destroyed and of course the best destruction for papers is fire

Quote:
well, if it was the humans who did it, Iím sure they would have argued with each other and everyone would have gone with what makes them joyful, for me because Allah was in charge of compiling it then I have to be assured within my belief that it is the exact words He wants all humanity from Uthman time to read, if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up.



All_Brains wrote:
1. So if you believe that humans were responsible for compiling the Quran, how would you know for sure that some did not forget the Quran?


That is a question to which I can not provide a proof for my answer, my answer is simply that I firmly BELIEVE to be the case yet I can not provide assurance to it, therefore Iím not asking others to believe the same

Believe †me if I have a assurance or anyone for that matter has then I guess believing in Allah will be very easy, right?

All_Brains wrote:
Had corrupt nature? Wanted to apply their own agenda?


Well, kafirs may believe as such, for me as a believer I believe in the contrary, and that is the limited free will given to all of us.

Quote:
if it was really the humans who collected it, i.e. the Quran does not have the above verses then I might have some doubt that the humans who collected it screwed it up.


All_Brains wrote:
2. Ahmed, examine your above words up here! I am disputing with you the fact the Quran could be man-made and your proof is a verse from the disputed Quran!!


you are still missing the point, firstly there is no dispute, Iím only explaining what I believe in, now for you as an individual who have your own mind and life, why my belief bothers you to a degree that you want to dispute it with me?, your belief does not bother me the slightest unless you attack my religion which you donít do I guess, therefore there should be nothing between us to dispute

Now for the Quran being a †man made, well if Iím neutral then I say yes it is a possibility, from a believer point of view, it is not even possible, for a kafir point of view it is certainly the case.

SEE

Now my question to you, what are you going to do if it was not a human made?

Are you prepared for that?

And that is the toughest question a kafir will face

Let me tell you that there is one answer that I get from all kafirs regarding that tough question, they simply reply in arrogance that they wonít care and will be delighted to go to hell, will you answer the same?

Now if the Quran indeed man made, what do you think that I lost?

Let me tell you mate that I will lose absolutely nothing, even all the time I spent defending something that may not exist, I was never forced to do it and I enjoyed every bit of it, letís just assume it to be another type of career or a hobby in this life

All_Brains wrote:
How do you know that the above verse wasn't inserted on purpose to get you to believe what you believe?


Look, the kafirs say the exact same regarding almost all the verses in the Quran, for example they say the same about the verse that Allah is in charge of guarding it against corruption, they also say the same about the hell verses, etc etc

It is impossible for a human to think of all such possibilities and put in a book like that, especially that human didnít know how to read nor write. I guess you will come and say the Ummi verses were also inserted by humans to make us believe that Mohammed could have never invented the Quran, hahahahah

All_Brains wrote:
Also Ahmed as a psychologist


Look mate, with my total respect to your profession, I don't buy what the doctors say most of the times despite my brother is a doctor

Whatever you are going to say, your profession wonít be able to find an answer to this question:

WHAT IFÖ.?

See

All_Brains wrote:
I have to tell you that the brain and speech usually slow down when trying to retain and memorise, it's a natural brain reaction. I have never seen anyone memorise by repeating words fast!!


Excuse me sir, I tried to memorise many quran verses all my life and the way I used to do it which is NATURAL was to repeat the same verse hundreds of times quickly

The above is really irrelevant man

Salam
All_Brains

Great! Let's move on after we have both displayed our positions on topic # 1:

1. Ahmed "believes" that the Quran is from Allah and was compiled by Allah through people. Whilst there is no proof that the Quran is from Allah, belief and only belief can assist you was such predicament.

2. All_Brains thinks that the Quran is man-made, as it's very suspicious for me because it was only compiled years after the death of Muhammad, have surahs within to prove its validity and at the time of its compilation many other versions were burned, including the one with his wife (Hafsah)!

To summarise, Ahmed believes with no proof and all_brains thinks with little proof. Only one way we can make certain of the point of discussion, by examining the Quran itself.

I will start from the begging of the Quran and through in topic #2 shortly.

Thanks Ahmed for your words and thought!
All_Brains

Point of discussion # 2

Quote:
خَتَمَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ

Shakir 2:7 Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

yusufali 2:7 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Pickthal 2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

Al-Hilali 2:7 All‚h has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting All‚h's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.


Ahmed

The fact that Allah is supposed to be omniscient makes the above verse a very unfair one.

Why would Allah set a seal on people heart to prevent them from believing? And since he is aware of the outcome of all scenarios, then someone going to hell-fire is pretty much designed to do so by his creator!!!

This does not make sense, please help us understand!
AhmedBahgat

Point of discussion # 2

Quote:
خَتَمَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ

Shakir 2:7 Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

yusufali 2:7 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Pickthal 2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

Al-Hilali 2:7 All‚h has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting All‚h's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torture.


All_Brains wrote:

Ahmed


Salam A_B

All_Brains wrote:
The fact that Allah is supposed to be omniscient makes the above verse a very unfair one.


2:7 can never suggest that Allah is unfair, in fact you missed the reason that Allah stated in the previous verse to why He will set such seal on their hearts, ears and visions, let me bring the verse in here:

Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe.

[Al Quran ; 2:6]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ (6)

-> See what 2:6 is telling us regarding the attitude of those who have chosen disbelief: Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe., i.e. they care less about the warning, i.e. they donít give a rat arse about such warning, i.e. they are arrogant and because of that Allah is going to make it even harder on them to believe, they bloody earned it with their clear cut arrogance of not caring about the message and the warning sent

All_Brains wrote:
Why would Allah set a seal on people heart to prevent them from believing?


Because according to 2:6, it is the same for them if you warn them or not, they are clear cut arrogant and wonít believe

All_Brains wrote:
And since he is ware of the outcome of all scenarios, then someone going to hell-fire is pretty much designed to so by his creator!!!


Indeed, here is the verses to prove it, this is a big one:

13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.

14: Then taste because of your forgetting to the Meeting of this Day of yours, surely! We too will forget you, so taste the abiding torture for what you used to do.

15: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the prais of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

16: Their sides forsake their beds, to call upon  their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend  out of what We have bestowed on them.

17: No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

18: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they.

19: As for those who have believed and have done good deeds, for them are Gardens as a reward for what they used to do.

20: And as for those who have transgressed, their abode will be the Fire, every time they wish to get away from it, they will be returned back to it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torture of the fire which you used to deny.

21: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may  return.

22: And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals.

[Al Quran ; 32:13-22]

وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَآتَيْنَا كُلَّ نَفْسٍ هُدَاهَا وَلَكِنْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّي لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (13)
فَذُوقُوا بِمَا نَسِيتُمْ لِقَاء يَوْمِكُمْ هَذَا إِنَّا نَسِينَاكُمْ وَذُوقُوا عَذَابَ الْخُلْدِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (14)
إِنَّمَا يُؤْمِنُ بِآيَاتِنَا الَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِّرُوا بِهَا خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَسَبَّحُوا بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ (15)
تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفًا وَطَمَعًا وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (16)
فَلَا تَعْلَمُ نَفْسٌ مَّا أُخْفِيَ لَهُم مِّن قُرَّةِ أَعْيُنٍ جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (17)
أَفَمَن كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا كَمَن كَانَ فَاسِقًا لَّا يَسْتَوُونَ (1Cool
أَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ فَلَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْمَأْوَى نُزُلًا بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (19)
وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فَسَقُوا فَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ كُلَّمَا أَرَادُوا أَن يَخْرُجُوا مِنْهَا أُعِيدُوا فِيهَا وَقِيلَ لَهُمْ ذُوقُوا عَذَابَ النَّارِ الَّذِي كُنتُم بِهِ تُكَذِّبُونَ (20)
وَلَنُذِيقَنَّهُمْ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَدْنَى دُونَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَكْبَرِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ (21)
وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن ذُكِّرَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِ ثُمَّ أَعْرَضَ عَنْهَا إِنَّا مِنَ الْمُجْرِمِينَ مُنتَقِمُونَ (22)

-> See what Allah says: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance,, of course Allah can force everyone of us to believe but the whole thing of creating us will be a joke, as well His laws will be contradicted because when he created Adam and his partner He told them: but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together., see how Allah is saying that His word is the truth, i.e. there will be no change to His words and what He said MUST HAPPEN, now it is not like He will randomly those whom He will make to believe rather He will help those sincere ones who have realized the possible high stakes that must come to pass if Allah exists. Of course Allah wonít help the arrogant who only cared less about the warning, why should He?

-> Here is a reason to why those hell bound criminals must suffer: Then taste because of your forgetting to the Meeting of this Day of yours,, SEE, they forgot the meeting of the day of jusgement, see how Allah called YOUR DAY, i.e. it is a day for everyone of us that must live, there are those who always remembered that day, and there are those who do not give a rat arse about such horrible day of theirs, i.e. they forgot that day of theirs and therefore: surely! We too will forget you, so taste the abiding torture for what you used to do.

-> Here is  an example of how nopt to be arrogant towards the signs of Allah: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant., HO CLEAR IS THAT MAN?, well you can see many of those arrogant freaks who not just ignore the message BUT MOCK IT AS WELL, I guess they started to mock it because of the seal set upon them due to their arrogance, now they will be indulged for the rest of their lives in mocking the message so when their day comes, they will earn hell fair and square

-> Those who are not arrogant towards the signs of Allah are those whose: Their sides forsake their beds, to call upon their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend out of what We have bestowed on them. unlike those freaks who only mock the message like many on FFI web site and even on this web site, Baal is a clear example of such criminals mentioned in the Quran, on the JD he must be guilty as charged, impossible that someone like Baal and a believer who humbled himself to Allah to be equal on the JD, in fact if Baal is not punished by Allah then this will be not fair for those who have believed and humbled themselves to Him

-> For those who have believed they wonít be able to even comprehend the reward waiting for them: No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

-> Remember what I asked you a minute ago, Is Baal equal to someone who have believed?, that is exactly what the Quran is asking you too: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they., see how Allah is giving the answer at the same time, this is because IT IS THE ONLY ANSWER, a believer can never be equal to a disbeliever

-> And the reward of those who have believers is assured again: As for those who have believed and have done good deeds, for them are Gardens as a reward for what they used to do.

-> Now for someone like Baal: And as for those who have transgressed, their abode will be the Fire, every time they wish to get away from it, they will be returned back to it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torture of the fire which you used to deny., what a humiliating end it is going to be for him, man

-> Now here is something very interesting, it actually proves the mercy of Allah towards those whom He set seal upon them: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may  return., see Allah still trying to guide those arrogant freaks, but His guidance is going to be through the hard way for them, i.e. they will be hit with things in this life: in order that they may  return.

-> Here is a description of a criminal like Baal And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals., see why I called him criminal, it was not me, it was the Quran who called the likes of him as such, I only told him what the Quran is saying about him, now criminal means that a crime has been committed which means retribution must be enforced, that is the human law, pal

All_Brains wrote:
This does not make sense, please help us understand!


I hope I did

Salam
All_Brains

Quote:
2:7 can never suggest that Allah is unfair, in fact you missed the reason that Allah stated in the previous verse to why He will set such seal on their hearts, ears and visions, let me bring the verse in here:

Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe.

[Al Quran ; 2:6]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ (6)

-> See what 2:6 is telling us regarding the attitude of those who have chosen disbelief: Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe., i.e. they care less about the warning, i.e. they donít give a rat arse about such warning, i.e. they are arrogant and because of that Allah is going to make it even harder on them to believe, they bloody earned it with their clear cut arrogance of not caring about the message and the warning sent


Ahmed

My problem with this logic is that you and Allah think that people disbelieve out of wickedness and evilness. There are many people who won't believe because they are not convinced or Islam does not fit their moral conviction. These people can also be very serious and have studied all religions with sincerity.

Also, I am not quite sure why would Allah give people just one chance at making arguably the biggest decision in their life, then when rejected, sets a seal on their hearts, so that they can be doomed for eternity.

Quote:
Indeed, here is the verses to prove it, this is a big one:

13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.

14: Then taste because of your forgetting to the Meeting of this Day of yours, surely! We too will forget you, so taste the abiding torture for what you used to do.

15: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the prais of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

16: Their sides forsake their beds, to call upon  their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend  out of what We have bestowed on them.

17: No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

18: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they.

19: As for those who have believed and have done good deeds, for them are Gardens as a reward for what they used to do.

20: And as for those who have transgressed, their abode will be the Fire, every time they wish to get away from it, they will be returned back to it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torture of the fire which you used to deny.

21: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may  return.

22: And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals.

[Al Quran ; 32:13-22]

وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَآتَيْنَا كُلَّ نَفْسٍ هُدَاهَا وَلَكِنْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّي لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (13)
فَذُوقُوا بِمَا نَسِيتُمْ لِقَاء يَوْمِكُمْ هَذَا إِنَّا نَسِينَاكُمْ وَذُوقُوا عَذَابَ الْخُلْدِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (14)
إِنَّمَا يُؤْمِنُ بِآيَاتِنَا الَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِّرُوا بِهَا خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَسَبَّحُوا بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ (15)
تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفًا وَطَمَعًا وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (16)
فَلَا تَعْلَمُ نَفْسٌ مَّا أُخْفِيَ لَهُم مِّن قُرَّةِ أَعْيُنٍ جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (17)
أَفَمَن كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا كَمَن كَانَ فَاسِقًا لَّا يَسْتَوُونَ (1Cool
أَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ فَلَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْمَأْوَى نُزُلًا بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (19)
وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فَسَقُوا فَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ كُلَّمَا أَرَادُوا أَن يَخْرُجُوا مِنْهَا أُعِيدُوا فِيهَا وَقِيلَ لَهُمْ ذُوقُوا عَذَابَ النَّارِ الَّذِي كُنتُم بِهِ تُكَذِّبُونَ (20)
وَلَنُذِيقَنَّهُمْ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَدْنَى دُونَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَكْبَرِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ (21)
وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن ذُكِّرَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِ ثُمَّ أَعْرَضَ عَنْهَا إِنَّا مِنَ الْمُجْرِمِينَ مُنتَقِمُونَ (22)


Great Ahmed, so you believe your God created the vast majority of people just to be thrown in hell for eternity, having pre-designed their actions anyway!!!

Quote:
13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.


The above verse is pure evil Ahmed, it might as well be written by the devil. Luckily I don't believe in him either!

Quote:
-> See what Allah says: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance,, of course Allah can force everyone of us to believe but the whole thing of creating us will be a joke, as well His laws will be contradicted because when he created Adam and his partner He told them: but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together., see how Allah is saying that His word is the truth, i.e. there will be no change to His words and what He said MUST HAPPEN, now it is not like He will randomly those whom He will make to believe rather He will help those sincere ones who have realized the possible high stakes that must come to pass if Allah exists. Of course Allah wonít help the arrogant who only cared less about the warning, why should He?


And who pre-designed some people to be sincere and some people to be arrogant? If it's us, then God isn't Omniscient, and If it's God, then he is unfair to torture people who just did what he made them to do!!!

Quote:
-> Here is  an example of how nopt to be arrogant towards the signs of Allah: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant., HO CLEAR IS THAT MAN?, well you can see many of those arrogant freaks who not just ignore the message BUT MOCK IT AS WELL, I guess they started to mock it because of the seal set upon them due to their arrogance, now they will be indulged for the rest of their lives in mocking the message so when their day comes, they will earn hell fair and square


Sure Ahmed, people see signs on daily basis and everyone is trying to decide, is it from Allah?Jesus?Yahweh?Shiva?Brahma? Or just nature and the physical rules of the universe

Quote:
Remember what I asked you a minute ago, Is Baal equal to someone who have believed?, that is exactly what the Quran is asking you too: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they., see how Allah is giving the answer at the same time, this is because IT IS THE ONLY ANSWER, a believer can never be equal to a disbeliever


Well, we have to be convinced first of the validity of the Quran before we can acknowledge such warnings.
Quote:

-> Now here is something very interesting, it actually proves the mercy of Allah towards those whom He set seal upon them: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may  return., see Allah still trying to guide those arrogant freaks, but His guidance is going to be through the hard way for them, i.e. they will be hit with things in this life: in order that they may  return.


Is this another word for Allah removing the set seal???

Quote:
-> Here is a description of a criminal like Baal And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals., see why I called him criminal, it was not me, it was the Quran who called the likes of him as such, I only told him what the Quran is saying about him, now criminal means that a crime has been committed which means retribution must be enforced, that is the human law, pal


Of course! That's what you believe. Baal though may disagree and think we all just going to die and rot in the ground!

As we both progress in the Quran discussion, readers will be able to read and take sides.

Thank you for putting in the effort and civilly fighting your cause!
All_Brains

Hello Ahmed

Let's please allow one more round for the important topic. Please respond to my above post when you have time, then I'll sum it up. We can then move to point 3.

Regards
All_Brains
AhmedBahgat

Quote:
2:7 can never suggest that Allah is unfair, in fact you missed the reason that Allah stated in the previous verse to why He will set such seal on their hearts, ears and visions, let me bring the verse in here:

Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe.

[Al Quran ; 2:6]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ (6)

-> See what 2:6 is telling us regarding the attitude of those who have chosen disbelief: Indeed for those who have disbelieved, it is the same to them whether you warn them or you do not warn them, they do not believe., i.e. they care less about the warning, i.e. they donít give a rat arse about such warning, i.e. they are arrogant and because of that Allah is going to make it even harder on them to believe, they bloody earned it with their clear cut arrogance of not caring about the message and the warning sent


All_Brains wrote:
Ahmed


Good morning A_B

All_Brains wrote:
My problem with this logic is that you and Allah think that people disbelieve out of wickedness and evilness.


Of course, they are also sick people who are not grateful to the God who created them and gave them to eyes, lips and a tongue, I as looking at the mirror the other day, and I started investigating my face as if it is an electronic device that been invented, and I was so impressed to how our bodies are wired for all organs to work together, then my thoughts went further to how I have been existing all that long, I just could not find a possible way but the creation of God, everywhere I look I see the creation of Allah, it just canít be overlooked unless the onlookers are really sick, arrogant, doomed and ungrateful to the One Who made them

Yes I believe that the unbelievers do not believe out of sickness and according to Allah, He is going to punish them by increasing their sickness

All_Brains wrote:
There are many people who won't believe because they are not convinced or Islam does not fit their moral conviction.


The belief in God is not only Islam, there are millions before Islam who died believers, what they did as simple and costed nothing, they just listened to the warning of God without showing any arrogance †

All_Brains wrote:
These people can also be very serious and have studied all religions with sincerity.


But they have that touch of arrogance that the creation maybe a coincidence and not by God, those who want to believe must submit first that there must be One entity called God Who created all things that are working in such harmony

All_Brains wrote:
Also, I am not quite sure why would Allah give people just one chance at making arguably the biggest decision in their life, then when rejected, sets a seal on their hearts, so that they can be doomed for eternity.


Where it says that the people are given one chance?, Allah always gives the people many chances, the chances will be given all life long, up to shortly before they die, I know many who believed at the age of 70 and more, how do you think it happened to them while they had the seal for 70 years?, well, let me tell you why, because they dropped their arrogance and they changed, letís look at the following verse:

For his sake there are angels following one another, before him and behind him, who guard him by Allah's commandment; surely Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition; and when Allah intends evil to a people, there is no averting it, and other than Him they have no protector.

[The Quran ; 13:11]

لَهُ مُعَقِّبَاتٌ مِّن بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِ يَحْفَظُونَهُ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُغَيِّرُ مَا بِقَوْمٍ حَتَّى يُغَيِّرُواْ مَا بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ وَإِذَا أَرَادَ اللّهُ بِقَوْمٍ سُوءًا فَلاَ مَرَدَّ لَهُ وَمَا لَهُم مِّن دُونِهِ مِن وَالٍ (11)

-> See, surely Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition, now, if your current condition that you have the seal set upon you, it is going to stay as such unless you change you condition and believe in the one God sincerely then learn more about Him and Iím 100% sure He will help you. This is because you ill have no ULTIMATE protector other than Him: and other than Him they have no protector.

Quote:
Indeed, here is the verses to prove it, this is a big one:

13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.

14: Then taste because of your forgetting to the Meeting of this Day of yours, surely! We too will forget you, so taste the abiding torture for what you used to do.

15: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the prais of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

16: Their sides forsake their beds, to call upon †their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend †out of what We have bestowed on them.

17: No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.

18: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they.

19: As for those who have believed and have done good deeds, for them are Gardens as a reward for what they used to do.

20: And as for those who have transgressed, their abode will be the Fire, every time they wish to get away from it, they will be returned back to it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torture of the fire which you used to deny.

21: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may †return.

22: And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals.

[Al Quran ; 32:13-22]

وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَآتَيْنَا كُلَّ نَفْسٍ هُدَاهَا وَلَكِنْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّي لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (13)
فَذُوقُوا بِمَا نَسِيتُمْ لِقَاء يَوْمِكُمْ هَذَا إِنَّا نَسِينَاكُمْ وَذُوقُوا عَذَابَ الْخُلْدِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (14)
إِنَّمَا يُؤْمِنُ بِآيَاتِنَا الَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِّرُوا بِهَا خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَسَبَّحُوا بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ (15)
تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفًا وَطَمَعًا وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (16)
فَلَا تَعْلَمُ نَفْسٌ مَّا أُخْفِيَ لَهُم مِّن قُرَّةِ أَعْيُنٍ جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (17)
أَفَمَن كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا كَمَن كَانَ فَاسِقًا لَّا يَسْتَوُونَ (1Cool
أَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ فَلَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْمَأْوَى نُزُلًا بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ (19)
وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فَسَقُوا فَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ كُلَّمَا أَرَادُوا أَن يَخْرُجُوا مِنْهَا أُعِيدُوا فِيهَا وَقِيلَ لَهُمْ ذُوقُوا عَذَابَ النَّارِ الَّذِي كُنتُم بِهِ تُكَذِّبُونَ (20)
وَلَنُذِيقَنَّهُمْ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَدْنَى دُونَ الْعَذَابِ الْأَكْبَرِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ (21)
وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن ذُكِّرَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِ ثُمَّ أَعْرَضَ عَنْهَا إِنَّا مِنَ الْمُجْرِمِينَ مُنتَقِمُونَ (22)


All_Brains wrote:
Great Ahmed, so you believe your God created the vast majority of people just to be thrown in hell for eternity,


Yes, and those who are doomed, earned it fair and square

All_Brains wrote:
having pre-designed their actions anyway!!!


There is a difference between the followings:

1) Design an action
2) Influence an action
3) Allow an action
4) Disallow an action

Now for our actions, only 2,3 & 4 apply to our God

Quote:
13: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together.


All_Brains wrote:
The above verse is pure evil Ahmed, it might as well be written by the devil. Luckily I don't believe in him either!


dismissed

Quote:
-> See what Allah says: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance,, of course Allah can force everyone of us to believe but the whole thing of creating us will be a joke, as well His laws will be contradicted because when he created Adam and his partner He told them: but the Word from Me is the truth, that I will fill Hell from the jinn and the people together., see how Allah is saying that His word is the truth, i.e. there will be no change to His words and what He said MUST HAPPEN, now it is not like He will randomly those whom He will make to believe rather He will help those sincere ones who have realized the possible high stakes that must come to pass if Allah exists. Of course Allah wonít help the arrogant who only cared less about the warning, why should He?


All_Brains wrote:
And who pre-designed some people to be sincere and some people to be arrogant?


No one pre designed it, all the people are born babies who know nothing, the years that are planned for them to live and what they do in it, will be the only factor that will make them what they might be

All_Brains wrote:
If it's us, then God isn't Omniscient,


Wrong, because He has to give us limited freewill according to His test, otherwise the test is a joke

Also for Him being able to :

1) Influence an action
2) Allow an action
3) †Disallow an action

Must make Him Omniscient

All_Brains wrote:
and If it's God, then he is unfair to torture people who just did what he made them to do!!!


Do you mean because He allowed them to do it, then no, but if you insist that this is an act of unfairness then tough luck to all the people.

Quote:
-> Here is †an example of how nopt to be arrogant towards the signs of Allah: Those who believe in Our signs are the ones when they are reminded of them (the signs) fall down prostrate, and glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant., HO CLEAR IS THAT MAN?, well you can see many of those arrogant freaks who not just ignore the message BUT MOCK IT AS WELL, I guess they started to mock it because of the seal set upon them due to their arrogance, now they will be indulged for the rest of their lives in mocking the message so when their day comes, they will earn hell fair and square



All_Brains wrote:
Sure Ahmed, people see signs on daily basis and everyone is trying to decide, is it from Allah?Jesus?Yahweh?Shiva?Brahma? Or just nature and the physical rules of the universe


See, that is the limited freewill given

No compulsion in religion, also remember well that this life is not a free ride if Allah exists

Quote:
Remember what I asked you a minute ago, Is Baal equal to someone who have believed?, that is exactly what the Quran is asking you too: Is then he who is a believer like him who is transgressor? Not equal are they., see how Allah is giving the answer at the same time, this is because IT IS THE ONLY ANSWER, a believer can never be equal to a disbeliever


All_Brains wrote:
Well, we have to be convinced first of the validity of the Quran before we can acknowledge such warnings.


Iím, for you and the likes of you, itís not my business really, however I'm happy to keep explaining His message in the Quran as long as you want to learn not to just argue that there is no God, for me I careless that you believe in a god or not, BELIEVE ME 100% when I tell you that

Quote:

-> Now here is something very interesting, it actually proves the mercy of Allah towards those whom He set seal upon them: And verily, We will make them taste of the less torture (i.e. the torture in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the great torture (in the Hereafter), in order that they may †return., see Allah still trying to guide those arrogant freaks, but His guidance is going to be through the hard way for them, i.e. they will be hit with things in this life: in order that they may †return.


All_Brains wrote:
Is this another word for Allah removing the set seal???


I guess so but only if they pass the lesser tests in this life

Quote:
-> Here is a description of a criminal like Baal And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns aside from it? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the criminals., see why I called him criminal, it was not me, it was the Quran who called the likes of him as such, I only told him what the Quran is saying about him, now criminal means that a crime has been committed which means retribution must be enforced, that is the human law, pal


All_Brains wrote:
Of course! That's what you believe. Baal though may disagree and think we all just going to die and rot in the ground!


And the Quran talks a lot about those who keep repeating this argument, indeed Allah is way too smart to make it such way by making our dead bodies turn to dust so the kafiroon insist on their arrogance, see how the tough test is played

All_Brains wrote:
As we both progress in the Quran discussion, readers will be able to read and take sides.

Thank you for putting in the effort and civilly fighting your cause!


Salam
All_Brains

Thanks Ahmed, I think it's enough on the point already.

1) You believe that the omniscient God created humans to serve and worship, and those who are destined to follow his path will go to heaven and those who are led astray and have their hearts sealed, based on their evil pre-determined actions will go to an eternal hell.

2) I think that the idea of an omniscient God contradicts with free will and hence the eternal punishment of the consequential actions.

I will post my next point of discussion soon.

Hope you recovered from your flu!

Regards
All_Brains
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
Thanks Ahmed, I think it's enough on the point already.

1) You believe that the omniscient God created humans to serve and worship, and those who are destined to follow his path will go to heaven and those who are led astray and have their hearts sealed, based on their evil pre-determined actions will go to an eternal hell.

2) I think that the idea of an omniscient God contradicts with free will and hence the eternal punishment of the consequential actions.

I will post my next point of discussion soon.

Hope you recovered from your flu!

Regards
All_Brains


Thanks A_B

One thing that I would like to add to your summary of my belief, that they are destined to hell because THEY EARNED IT with their arrogance

I'm still recovering mate, but managed to do the VPN tunnel to cairo, and many other shit including remote control to all servers in cairo

let's move forard now

cheers
All_Brains

Quote:
هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعاً ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

Shakir 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

Pickthal 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Al-Hilali 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istaw‚ (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


Hello Ahmed

The above verse suggests that Allah had to physically alter his position (directed himself/turned he to/rose over towards) in order to create the seven heavens, which contradicts the meaning of "omnipresent"!

Please enlighten us.

Regards
All_Brains
AhmedBahgat

Quote:
هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعاً ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

Shakir 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

Pickthal 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Al-Hilali 2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istaw‚ (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed


Hello A_B


All_Brains wrote:
The above verse suggests that Allah had to physically alter his position (directed himself/turned he to/rose over towards) in order to create the seven heavens, which contradicts the meaning of "omnipresent"!

Please enlighten us.

Regards
All_Brains


The word Istawa does not in anyway means that a position has been changed, rather it means Istaqar letís say for simplicity ďto sit downĒ

The important note is this:

Similar to the word Daraba, if some words came after the word Istawa, then we might have a few possible meanings

For example

Istawa Ila = Directed His attention to

Istawa Ala = Sit down on

Under any of the above possible meanings, I canít see any change in any location, in fact it seems that everything is within the vicinity of Allah, the heaven and the earth and His throne all within His vicinity

Let e just tell you that from the above translation you brought in, I will go for shakir as the most accurate to the meaning of Istawa Ila, however to make shakir translation more accurate, it should be like this:

He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed His attention to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

In the verses of the throne of Allah , we donít read it Istawa Ila, rather Istawa Ala, i.e. He Istaqar Ala, for simplicity He sat down on

I just canít see any change in Allah location under any of the meanings discussed above

Cheers
All_Brains

Sure Ahmed, so instead of the shift of position your money is on shifting or directing of attention, however you now ran into a bigger problem, as for Allah to shift his attention in order to focus on something other than what he was doing before, makes his position as omniscient and omnipotent very questionable!!!

I expect the one true God to be able to multi-task!
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
Sure Ahmed, so instead of the shift of position your money is on shifting or directing of attention, however you now ran into a bigger problem, as for Allah to shift his attention in order to focus on something other than what he was doing before, makes his position as omniscient and omnipotent very questionable!!!

I expect the one true God to be able to multi-task!


Hello A_B

Why you say to focus His attention on something other than what He was doing before?

come on, it's logical that If He finished what He was doing He may shift †His attention into another task according to a timeline in His plan

Your questions above is irrellevent to our discussion, which is not the nature of the God, however I eaplained to you what the Quran words might be and still you try to create any holes to suit your disbelief

Simply everything that Allah does is according to An Ajal Maaloom, i.e. a known appointed time

Therefore if Allah was doing a task let's say for argument sake on day one then on day two He moved on to another task, etc etc, this should in no way contradicts His omniscient nor His omnipotent neither HIs omnipresent

Salam
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Sure Ahmed, so instead of the shift of position your money is on shifting or directing of attention, however you now ran into a bigger problem, as for Allah to shift his attention in order to focus on something other than what he was doing before, makes his position as omniscient and omnipotent very questionable!!!

I expect the one true God to be able to multi-task!


Hello A_B

Why you say to focus His attention on something other than what He was doing before?

come on, it's logical that If He finished what He was doing He may shift  His attention into another task according to a timeline in His plan

Your questions above is irrellevent to our discussion, which is not the nature of the God, however I eaplained to you what the Quran words might be and still you try to create any holes to suit your disbelief

Simply everything that Allah does is according to An Ajal Maaloom, i.e. a known appointed time

Therefore if Allah was doing a task let's say for argument sake on day one then on day two He moved on to another task, etc etc, this should in no way contradicts His omniscient nor His omnipotent neither HIs omnipresent

Salam


Very good Ahmed! Let's call it a night and I will raise point 4 tomorrow.

Hope you feel better already and will speak to you tomorrow.

Good night.
AhmedBahgat

Great A_B

Have a good night mate, talk to you tomorrow Inshaallah
All_Brains

Point of discussion # 4

Quote:

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً قَالُواْ أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاء وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمون

Shakir 2:30 And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

yusufali 2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

Pickthal 2:30 And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.

Al-Hilali 2:30 And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (All‚h) said: "I know that which you do not know."


Hello Ahmed

I am confused about a few things in these verses, they are as follows:

1. Why is God consulting with the Angels?
2. Why do the angles argue with God?
3. How can angels do or say anything that is not instructed by the lord.
4. The angels declare that the only glorify and praise God, therefore he shouldn't be creating mischievous beings!!!
5. God is responding to the angels having been challenged with an answer they should have known already!!!
6. God is declaring his intention to create man on earth, exposing the plot of the apple and the tree and his pre-determination of Adam actions before the fall!!!
AhmedBahgat

Point of discussion # 4

Quote:

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً قَالُواْ أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاء وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمون

Shakir 2:30 And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

yusufali 2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

Pickthal 2:30 And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.

Al-Hilali 2:30 And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (All‚h) said: "I know that which you do not know."


All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed


Salam A_B

All_Brains wrote:
I am confused about a few things in these verses, they are as follows:


There will be no confusion inshaallah

All_Brains wrote:
1. Why is God consulting with the Angels?


Why you are calling it a consultation?

God was never consulting the angels (taking their opinion), He was only INFORMING them with His intentions, now if you ask me why He was informing the angels?

I say: why not?

Indeed the angels are servants to the humans, it is their right to know Allah's intention of creating another creature whom the angels will be serving, this was obvious when He ordered them to bow to Adam

It is not like He created Adam behind their back then all of a sudden He orders them to bow to an unknown creature which of course He still can do it, but He chose to inform the angels of the creation of the creature whom they will be serving


[quote="All_Brains"]2. Why do the angles argue with God?
Quote:


Again, why you call it an argument?

It was a mere question to why, yet their question was based on their ignorance and their prejudice against all humanity because not all humans shed blood on earth

[quote="All_Brains"]3. How can angels do or say anything that is not instructed by the lord.


well, they are not puppets rather respected creatures and most respected by Allah Himself, they even discussed the matter between themselves (possibly) thinking that Allah may not know what they confided between themselves, the bottom line that the angels are intelligent creatures not puppets

All_Brains wrote:
4. The angels declare that the only glorify and praise God, therefore he shouldn't be creating mischievous beings!!!


well, donít compare apple with oranges, the angels will not be held to account while the humans and possibly other creatures will be held to account, i.e. the humans at least were given far more freedom than the angels and unfortunately too much freedom is too bad, that freedom given was used to shed blood on earth but whoever sheds blood on earth wonít escape the account and whoever is slain, will be revived, it is all about testing then holding to account, the angels are not from among those creatures

All_Brains wrote:
5. God is responding to the angels having been challenged with an answer they should have known already!!


I could not understand what you mean, can you elaborate?


All_Brains wrote:
6. God is declaring his intention to create man on earth, exposing the plot of the apple and the tree and his pre-determination of Adam actions before the fall!!!



I will accept the word declaring because it is far more accurate than consulting, however you still need to elaborate regarding the above because I could not understand what you mean

Salam
All_Brains

Dear Ahmed

I hope you forgive, as I have not posted for a while. I was travelling intrastate
to give few lectures in various universities. I noticed from your posts that you're very busy yourself.

I will be posting again this weekend!

Regards to and your family.
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
Dear Ahmed

I hope you forgive, as I have not posted for a while. I was travelling intrastate
to give few lectures in various universities. I noticed from your posts that you're very busy yourself.

I will be posting again this weekend!

Regards to and your family.


Salam mate

No appolgies required bro, this is a mere discussion, take all the time you want, I won't rant about any delays

Indeed I'm too busy

Likewise for the regards mate

Salam
AhmedBahgat

Hello A_B

Hope you and the family are doing great, let me show you something mate then I would like to ask you a question and this time I will listen to your professional opinion regarding the mentality of such American woman:

I was reading many stories on the net and I stumbled accross this reply by a Muslim revert, her words was just so simple but very stricking, it stroke me as a Muslim, I wonder what it does to the non Muslims:

----------------------------------
Being a revert post-911, I think the reason there is such a steady growth in the religion is because having been brought to the forefront of the liberal media, people are curious. Those that seek to gain knowledge and truth regarding Islam, with a pure heart and open mind, see the beauty of the religion and once the truth is before them, there is no way they can deny what they have learned.

I came to Islam as a devout Christian seeking understanding as to why such a horrible and violent religion could do what was done to my country. I knew little to nothing about Islam other than what I had seen through the media. I thank God now for the gentle prodding I received from Him in regards to finding my own answers.

I do not believe anything different today than I did prior to embracing Islam other than I now do believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is the final prophet of God.

The one thing that was evident was that no one forced me to accept Islam. And I now understand that because of my own free will, I believe there is "no compulsion in religion". Unlike the way I was as a Christian, always trying to force-feed my religion down the throats of non-believers, I now live my life for only the worship of God and if asked about my religion, I share it humbly with no expectations. It is only God who guides people to accept His plan for their lives. Alhamdulillah!

Ghaliyah

------------------------------------------------

Source: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/answe...uestion?qid=20080224123313AAaxqk8

See mate:

It is really simple to how people can get help and guidance from Allah (at least removing the veil), they have to admit their ignorance as well drop their arrogance and I'm 100% sure that the divine help and guidance will be on their way

Now let me ask you mate, do you think that this american woman is insane, dumb and stupid?

Cheers
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello A_B

Hope you and the family are doing great, let me show you something mate then I would like to ask you a question and this time I will listen to your professional opinion regarding the mentality of such American woman:

I was reading many stories on the net and I stumbled accross this reply by a Muslim revert, her words was just so simple but very stricking, it stroke me as a Muslim, I wonder what it does to the non Muslims:

----------------------------------
Being a revert post-911, I think the reason there is such a steady growth in the religion is because having been brought to the forefront of the liberal media, people are curious. Those that seek to gain knowledge and truth regarding Islam, with a pure heart and open mind, see the beauty of the religion and once the truth is before them, there is no way they can deny what they have learned.

I came to Islam as a devout Christian seeking understanding as to why such a horrible and violent religion could do what was done to my country. I knew little to nothing about Islam other than what I had seen through the media. I thank God now for the gentle prodding I received from Him in regards to finding my own answers.

I do not believe anything different today than I did prior to embracing Islam other than I now do believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is the final prophet of God.

The one thing that was evident was that no one forced me to accept Islam. And I now understand that because of my own free will, I believe there is "no compulsion in religion". Unlike the way I was as a Christian, always trying to force-feed my religion down the throats of non-believers, I now live my life for only the worship of God and if asked about my religion, I share it humbly with no expectations. It is only God who guides people to accept His plan for their lives. Alhamdulillah!

Ghaliyah

------------------------------------------------

Source: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/answe...uestion?qid=20080224123313AAaxqk8

See mate:

It is really simple to how people can get help and guidance from Allah (at least removing the veil), they have to admit their ignorance as well drop their arrogance and I'm 100% sure that the divine help and guidance will be on their way

Now let me ask you mate, do you think that this american woman is insane, dumb and stupid?

Cheers


Hello Ahmed

I have been working over the past few years on a theory called the "faith gene". I think that there is a certain psychological and genetic make up that sway people to either believe or not!

This woman did not provide any evidence as why she embraced Islam. She just believed and that's fine with me.

As a manner of fact I am glad to see that I have no problems with Muslims and your version of Islam at all!

You merely believe that I would go to hell for my non-belief and I don't buy what you believe! Problem solved!

I will respect and not accept your beliefs and you don't do anything to harm due to your beliefs...

Have chat to BMZ, he'd let you know what I told him on PM.
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:

Hello Ahmed


Salam A_B

All_Brains wrote:
I have been working over the past few years on a theory called the "faith gene". I think that there is a certain psychological and genetic make up that sway people to either believe or not!


Is that is a possible cause with that American woman?

All_Brains wrote:
This woman did not provide any evidence as why she embraced Islam. She just believed and that's fine with me.


But according to your theory of the faith gene, are those who believe in any religion, nuts?

All_Brains wrote:
As a manner of fact I am glad to see that I have no problems with Muslims and your version of Islam at all!


Why you keep calling it, MY version of Islam?

i have not created any version of Islam, it is the sects followers who did so over the years and each one of them is joycing with what they invented for themselves, for me, I'm †restoring it to its originality (the Quran), i have invented absoutely nothing, also it is not because I'm fluent in Arabic and know the Quran well that I invent

Prove to me that I came with anything new that is not stated in the Quran, and if you can't then I won't accept you calling it MY version of Islam, however I will accept calling it "The Quran vesion of Islam"

All_Brains wrote:
You merely believe that I would go to hell for my non-belief and I don't buy what you believe! Problem solved!


Well, my belief is not focused that you are going to hell, in fact I careless about that, my belief is focused on saving my own arse from hell.

All_Brains wrote:
I will respect and not accept your beliefs and you don't do anything to harm due to your beliefs...


I'm not asking you to accept my religion, I never did, this discussion is about you suggesting that the Quran is full of non sense, so far you failed to prove your case

All_Brains wrote:

Have chat to BMZ, he'd let you know what I told him on PM.


Mate, that is between you and him, if you have †something to say to me, please go ahead

Cheers

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