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ibnishaq

arabic speakers please

hi,

the world fahish is used several times in the qu'ran. but one thing i have notices is that any time is is talking about any sin, it just says the word. but when it speaks about gays, it has AL(the) at the front. here are examples of where it speaks about a particular sin, but not homosexuality:

Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed)
Wala taqraboo alzzina innahu kana fahishatan

And marry not women whom your fathers married,- except what is past: It was shameful
Wala tankihoo ma nakaha abaokum mina alnnisai illa ma qad salafa innahu kana fahishatan

and there are others.

but whenever it speaks about gays, take a look..

"Do ye commit lewdness such as
no people in creation (ever) committed before you?
atatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena

Ye do commit lewdness
innakum latatoona alfahishata

"Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)?
atatoona alfahishata waantum tubsiroona

now al fahish is used other times in the qu'ran but not about a specific sin. only for homosexuality.

why is this? please explain because i do not know enough arabic.

wasalaam
BMZ

Post deleted by BMZ
ibnishaq

lol sorry about that i didnt even think about that lol
BMZ

Re: arabic speakers please

Whether a man screws an unmarried girl or a married woman or another man, the act is simply Fahish (Dirty).

I think this would suffice to make you understand what fahish simply means. The word stands for many words in English, such as filthy, dirty, abominable, lewd, indecent, immoral, etc.


BMZ

Thanks for the change, ibnishaq. It's okay.

BMZ

Edited the title.
All_Brains

Hello Shaq

To have a "the" before a noun gives a definitive magnitude.

Example:

1. Wayne Rooney scored a goal in the match between Man Utd and Chelsea.

2. Cristiano Ronaldo scored "the goal" against Liverpool.

Now (the goal) here suggest the only and most important or greatest of the season!

Al-Fahishah could mean one of the greatest sins.

Hope this helps.
ibnishaq

All_Brains wrote:
Hello Shaq

To have a "the" before a noun gives a definitive magnitude.

Example:

1. Wayne Rooney scored a goal in the match between Man Utd and Chelsea.

2. Cristiano Ronaldo scored "the goal" against Liverpool.

Now (the goal) here suggest the only and most important or greatest of the season!

Al-Fahishah could mean one of the greatest sins.

Hope this helps.

so i guess homosexuality is worse then hetero fornication b/c when it speaks about hetero is does not say al.

but wait. i did notice that 4:15(which is speaking about women committing fornication) it does say al fahishah.

4:15
Waallatee yateena alfahishata min nisaikum faistashhidoo AAalayhinna arbaAAatan minkum fain shahidoo faamsikoohunna fee albuyooti hatta yatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunna sabeelan Waallathani yatiyaniha minkum faathoohuma fain taba waaslaha faaAAridoo AAanhuma

If any of your women are guilty of lewdness,
Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses
from amongst you against them;
and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them,
or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both.
If they repent and amend, Leave them alone;

so both fornication and homosexuality are both called al-fahisha? (or maybe 4:15 is speaking of homosexuality LOL because it is near 4:16 that is speaking about gays)

so why is fornication called al-fahisha once but the other times just "fahisha" but homosexuality is called it every time?
BMZ

ibnishaq,

I think this should help remove the confusion:

There are two sets of two particular words in the verse  4:15 and let me point them out. When we read them we join them the Nun with with an al, so the nal becomes like a conjunction.

The two sets in the verse are : Yatee-nal-faahishata and Yatawaf-fa-hun-nal-maut and that is how you have to read and pronounce that. I have tried to differentiate between al and nal.

What is happening is that you are drawing conclusions on the basis of that particular style of transliteration.

If Yateena Alfahishata were meant to be read that way, there would have been an additional stroke to show al, separately. In the Arabic of Qur'aan, it is not written that way.

I don't have Arabic software. May be Ahmed can kindly explain and elaborate my point.

Edited to add: Qur'aan uses one word for f and that is Zina. It covers all types of f.

Hope this helped.

Salaams
BMZ
Baal

Do not worry about the stroke. It purely matters only to how it sounds. In this case Nal and Al have no differentiation.

Some Arabic letters are easier to orally link to the word after them, some are not.

Drink Coke can be said: Drink-oke
Eat Tarts becomes: Ea-tarts

It just that Arabic has such a limited number of ending for the words that it became possible to predict when such links will be needed so a rule was made for them.

It might sound complicated  but it really is very natural once you hear it couple times.
AhmedBahgat

Hello all

Just to add my 2 cents to all the above

The word Fahisha or Al Fahisha are identical in the meaning, the Al has no effect in the meaning and will only be required for gramatical reasons as required for every sentence on its own

the word itself means a very perverted act, or a very criminal act, or a very bad act, it can cover all sins indeed, in 4:16 we know that it should be covering homosexual acts because it is talking about two males doing it

Also if you read 24:19 you should see the word Al Fahisha while the verse in not explicit to the homos

Therefore using the Al with all the verses about homsecuality has absolutely no effect but a mere gramatical coincidence

There is also another word that mean the exact same which is used 7 times in the Quran:

الفحشاء, Al Fahshaa,  seen in 24:21 for example, in all 7 times the word was used with the Al, indeed the word does noot exist in the Quran without an Al

Therefore the Al has absoutely no extra meaning to the word itself

Hope this helps

Salam
ibnishaq

Baal wrote:
Do not worry about the stroke. It purely matters only to how it sounds. In this case Nal and Al have no differentiation.

Some Arabic letters are easier to orally link to the word after them, some are not.

Drink Coke can be said: Drink-oke
Eat Tarts becomes: Ea-tarts

It just that Arabic has such a limited number of ending for the words that it became possible to predict when such links will be needed so a rule was made for them.

It might sound complicated  but it really is very natural once you hear it couple times.


oh, so nal means the as well? cool.

so in 4:15 when it is speaking about fornication, it also says "the great sin" like it does when speaking about homos?
ibnishaq

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello all

Just to add my 2 cents to all the above

The word Fahisha or Al Fahisha are identical in the meaning, the Al has no effect in the meaning and will only be required for gramatical reasons as required for every sentence on its own

the word itself means a very perverted act, or a very criminal act, or a very bad act, it can cover all sins indeed, in 4:16 we know that it should be covering homosexual acts because it is talking about two males doing it

Also if you read 24:19 you should see the word Al Fahisha while the verse in not explicit to the homos

Therefore using the Al with all the verses about homsecuality has absolutely no effect but a mere gramatical coincidence

There is also another word that mean the exact same which is used 7 times in the Quran:

الفحشاء, Al Fahshaa,  seen in 24:21 for example, in all 7 times the word was used with the Al, indeed the word does noot exist in the Quran without an Al

Therefore the Al has absoutely no extra meaning to the word itself

Hope this helps

Salam

asalaamu alikum

thanks for the reply. that is very interesting indeed. on islam qa, the sheikh there said that it mean that homosexuality was the worse sin, worse then fornication because in fornication it does not use the "al" as it does for gays. he even said it was worse then murder since in murder the family can chose whether or not the murderer shall be put to death. all i could think was astaghfirullah, they had no right to make that assumption without clear cut proof from qu'ran and sunnah.

so why is "al" used sometimes though, but not always?

wasalaam
AhmedBahgat

ibnishaq wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello all

Just to add my 2 cents to all the above

The word Fahisha or Al Fahisha are identical in the meaning, the Al has no effect in the meaning and will only be required for gramatical reasons as required for every sentence on its own

the word itself means a very perverted act, or a very criminal act, or a very bad act, it can cover all sins indeed, in 4:16 we know that it should be covering homosexual acts because it is talking about two males doing it

Also if you read 24:19 you should see the word Al Fahisha while the verse in not explicit to the homos

Therefore using the Al with all the verses about homsecuality has absolutely no effect but a mere gramatical coincidence

There is also another word that mean the exact same which is used 7 times in the Quran:

الفحشاء, Al Fahshaa,  seen in 24:21 for example, in all 7 times the word was used with the Al, indeed the word does noot exist in the Quran without an Al

Therefore the Al has absoutely no extra meaning to the word itself

Hope this helps

Salam

asalaamu alikum

thanks for the reply. that is very interesting indeed. on islam qa, the sheikh there said that it mean that homosexuality was the worse sin, worse then fornication because in fornication it does not use the "al" as it does for gays. he even said it was worse then murder since in murder the family can chose whether or not the murderer shall be put to death. all i could think was astaghfirullah, they had no right to make that assumption without clear cut proof from qu'ran and sunnah.

so why is "al" used sometimes though, but not always?

wasalaam


Salam mate

The sheikh can not be 100% accurate

I actually believe that  the sin of homosexuality is on the same calibre as the sin of Zina, both are considered Kabaair (big ones)

for the Al issue, again it is all about grammar

for example I can say:

Do not commit Fahisha

and I can also say

Do not commmit Al Fahisha

both are valid gramatically and both mean the same thing

the only possible differnece that that second one may be explicit to a specific type of fahisha while the first covers all fahisha

the Al under Arabic grammar is called "Al Altarif", i.e. the Al of the Known

i.e. when you add an Al then it is assumed that you are pin pointing to a specifc thing,   while if without an Al then it can mean anything

for example

Ii can say, I have ridden a bus, this means that I'm referring to any bus

but if I say, I have ridden the bus, this means that I'm pin pointing to a specfic bus, possibly the school bus, of course other context in what I additionly said must give the listener a hint to which bus I was talking about if I used the Al before the bus, if I don't use the Al then the listener can assume that I'm talking about any bus

Hope this helps

Salam
AhmedBahgat

Let me give you a grammar example to how the Al can change things grmatically

If I say, Autobis Kabir, which means big bus, the word Kabir does not have an al, as well the word bus, this must make the word Kabir to be Sifah (adjective) to the word Autobis

the rule is like this, the adjective must follow the noun we are referring to regarding the Al, i.e.

if the bus have the Al then Kabir must have the Al

or

if the Bus does not have the Al, then kabir must noot have the Al

in both cases, the word Kabir must be an adjective to the word Autobis

now if the second word have an al, like Autobis Al Madrasah, i.e. bus of the school,  then the second word that have the Al can not be an adjective rather Mudaf Ilaihi

i.e. if the first word does not have the Al while the second word (that adds further info to it) has the Al, then the second word can not be an adjective rather Mmudaf Ilaihi

The Arabiic grammar is not so simple mate

Salam
ibnishaq

oh, so it is not emphasizing on sodomy as being a huge sin? it is just how the arabic is?

oh ok. i saw on islamqa they say that it means homosexuality is a wrose sin because it is "the great sin"and not just "a"

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