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cosmicdancer

Fear and Islam

I have often wondered why it took me so long to reject Islam - when in reality I had stopped believing in it about 6 years ago.

I think the reason is FEAR.

Fear still haunts me - even today.

But when all is said and done - fear is not a good reason for believing.
All_Brains

Re: Fear and Islam

cosmicdancer wrote:
I have often wondered why it took me so long to reject Islam - when in reality I had stopped believing in it about 6 years ago.

I think the reason is FEAR.

Fear still haunts me - even today.

But when all is said and done - fear is not a good reason for believing.


Hello CD

Good to see around! Very Happy

The title of my forum initially was "BREAK THE CHAINS OF IGNORANCE" then recently I have changed it to
"BREAK THE CHAINS OF IGNORANCE AND FEAR".

I now know for a fact that fear plays a very big role in Muslims and other religious people holding on to their faiths, despite the fact that they really aren't that convinced anymore!

I think Ibnishaq is a prime example of being victim to fear.
cosmicdancer

Re: Fear and Islam

All_Brains wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I have often wondered why it took me so long to reject Islam - when in reality I had stopped believing in it about 6 years ago.

I think the reason is FEAR.

Fear still haunts me - even today.

But when all is said and done - fear is not a good reason for believing.


Hello CD

Good to see around! Very Happy

The title of my forum initially was "BREAK THE CHAINS OF IGNORANCE" then recently I have changed it to
"BREAK THE CHAINS OF IGNORANCE AND FEAR".

I now know for a fact that fear plays a very big role in Muslims and other religious people holding on to their faiths, despite the fact that they really aren't that convinced anymore!

I think Ibnishaq is a prime example of being victim to fear.


I think most Muslims are driven by fear - though they disguise it (to themselves) in other ways.
kafir forever

1. The fear of Islamic hell
2. The fear of the death penalty for apostasy
3. The fear of turning against friends and family
4. The fear and alienation that goes with the loss of the Group Identity

These are the specific fears that any Islamic Apostate has to deal with.  The last one is the most interesting, because if it can be dealt with, the others can be dealt with using specific strategies that are relevant to the apostate's specific situation.

I will elaborate further in later posts.
Baal

<repeat>
Baal

My advice with regards to fear. Is always remember the hate.

You were made to hate everything that walked or existed around you pretty much.

You were made to hate good people, bad, people, average people, people you did not know. You were made to hate books, you were even made to hate korans written by other people and there was nothing you hated more then islamic books written by other sects or writers you did not approve of. You were made to hate animals, dogs, cats. You were made to hate yourself for missing so many prayers. You were made to hate countries and other ideas. If you were egyptians, you hated the gulf arabs, if you were an arab you despised the rest and thought of them as nothing but cheap labor and spineless worshipers. You were made to hate the neighboring mosque simply because it was theirs and not yours.

Hate and hate and more hate, at the end, it becomes a simple matter to go through any kind of fear just to get away from this hate. As simple as when Mr.Muhammad said: "Killing unbelievers is a simple matter for us".
kafir forever

So, Baal, what is your response to my proposal about the four fears that all Muslim apostates face?
Baal

kafir forever wrote:
So, Baal, what is your response to my proposal about the four fears that all Muslim apostates face?

I think they face a lot more then Four fears. Everything above they fear, they end up hating, it is a natural progression. Nobody wants to hate or be hated by something good, so naturally, anything they hate, they have to fundamentally label as bad and najis. And since it is bad, it can hurt them so they end up fearing it as well.

But which Four groups were you able to categorize?
kafir forever

Baal wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
So, Baal, what is your response to my proposal about the four fears that all Muslim apostates face?

I think they face a lot more then Four fears. Everything above they fear, they end up hating, it is a natural progression. Nobody wants to hate or be hated by something good, so naturally, anything they hate, they have to fundamentally label as bad and najis. And since it is bad, it can hurt them so they end up fearing it as well.


While this might be true, I don't think it is relevant to what I am trying to develop here.

Quote:
But which Four groups were you able to categorize?


The ones I listed in my post:

Quote:
1. The fear of Islamic hell
2. The fear of the death penalty for apostasy
3. The fear of turning against friends and family
4. The fear and alienation that goes with the loss of the Group Identity


I believe these are interrelated and exist solely for the purpose of control and keeping the member in the cult.

The first is obvious and built in, designed by a madman who wanted to maintain control and keep people from leaving the group.

The second is also built in and is intended as a backup if the first one does not work.  Its power is enhanced by not requiring any real due process or court procedure.  Anyone in the Ummah, including the apostate's family, can administer the penalty.  Which leads to #3.

The third one has at least two dimensions: the first, of course, is that the family can kill the apostate.  The next dimension is turning your back on people you love and who ostensibly love you.  That is very tough to do.

The fourth is what, in my opinion, make the other three possible.  It is essential to all cults that a person's individual identity be replaced by a group identity where the individual cares more about what the group perceives as correct behavior than the individual.  This is the fear that, if overcome, makes it possible to discard or manage the others, depending on the individual's personal circumstances.
Baal

kafir forever wrote:
Baal wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
So, Baal, what is your response to my proposal about the four fears that all Muslim apostates face?

I think they face a lot more then Four fears. Everything above they fear, they end up hating, it is a natural progression. Nobody wants to hate or be hated by something good, so naturally, anything they hate, they have to fundamentally label as bad and najis. And since it is bad, it can hurt them so they end up fearing it as well.


While this might be true, I don't think it is relevant to what I am trying to develop here.

Quote:
But which Four groups were you able to categorize?


The ones I listed in my post:

Quote:
1. The fear of Islamic hell
2. The fear of the death penalty for apostasy
3. The fear of turning against friends and family
4. The fear and alienation that goes with the loss of the Group Identity


I believe these are interrelated and exist solely for the purpose of control and keeping the member in the cult.

The first is obvious and built in, designed by a madman who wanted to maintain control and keep people from leaving the group.

The second is also built in and is intended as a backup if the first one does not work.  Its power is enhanced by not requiring any real due process or court procedure.  Anyone in the Ummah, including the apostate's family, can administer the penalty.  Which leads to #3.

The third one has at least two dimensions: the first, of course, is that the family can kill the apostate.  The next dimension is turning your back on people you love and who ostensibly love you.  That is very tough to do.

The fourth is what, in my opinion, make the other three possible.  It is essential to all cults that a person's individual identity be replaced by a group identity where the individual cares more about what the group perceives as correct behavior than the individual.  This is the fear that, if overcome, makes it possible to discard or manage the others, depending on the individual's personal circumstances.

Actually you are correct to stress the Fourth. For most educated muslims the Third and mostly the Fourth is what keeps them into islam.

I would add a Fifth point, which is directly related of the Fourth one: The fear of mundane and normal everyday items.

It is important for keeping the muslim within the group, to ingrain in his mind how come everything outside the group is somehow worse. worse morals, worse laws, worse people, worse pets, worse teachers, worse doctors (male doctors seeing females), worse morals (loose west), etc..
kafir forever

Baal wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
Baal wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
So, Baal, what is your response to my proposal about the four fears that all Muslim apostates face?

I think they face a lot more then Four fears. Everything above they fear, they end up hating, it is a natural progression. Nobody wants to hate or be hated by something good, so naturally, anything they hate, they have to fundamentally label as bad and najis. And since it is bad, it can hurt them so they end up fearing it as well.


While this might be true, I don't think it is relevant to what I am trying to develop here.

Quote:
But which Four groups were you able to categorize?


The ones I listed in my post:

Quote:
1. The fear of Islamic hell
2. The fear of the death penalty for apostasy
3. The fear of turning against friends and family
4. The fear and alienation that goes with the loss of the Group Identity


I believe these are interrelated and exist solely for the purpose of control and keeping the member in the cult.

The first is obvious and built in, designed by a madman who wanted to maintain control and keep people from leaving the group.

The second is also built in and is intended as a backup if the first one does not work.  Its power is enhanced by not requiring any real due process or court procedure.  Anyone in the Ummah, including the apostate's family, can administer the penalty.  Which leads to #3.

The third one has at least two dimensions: the first, of course, is that the family can kill the apostate.  The next dimension is turning your back on people you love and who ostensibly love you.  That is very tough to do.

The fourth is what, in my opinion, make the other three possible.  It is essential to all cults that a person's individual identity be replaced by a group identity where the individual cares more about what the group perceives as correct behavior than the individual.  This is the fear that, if overcome, makes it possible to discard or manage the others, depending on the individual's personal circumstances.

Actually you are correct to stress the Fourth. For most educated muslims the Third and mostly the Fourth is what keeps them into islam.

I would add a Fifth point, which is directly related of the Fourth one: The fear of mundane and normal everyday items.

It is important for keeping the muslim within the group, to ingrain in his mind how come everything outside the group is somehow worse. worse morals, worse laws, worse people, worse pets, worse teachers, worse doctors (male doctors seeing females), worse morals (loose west), etc..


I agree, this is another example of the manifestation of the fourth, External Group Identity fear.  To me, the fears you mentioned are extensions and consequences of the Group Identify problem, and further emphasizes the need to deal with the Group Identity problem.  

It is my proposition that if the Group Identity can be replaced in an individual with a strong Internal Individual Identity that does not rely on the opinion of the group, or its cult leader, then the rest of the fears either disappear completely, or become manageable.  Obviously, #2 and #3 are going to be situational, but I do believe that workable strategies exist for them.

That is the point I would like to develop in this thread.
brainout

I've heard much the same story from Christians, especially Catholics and Baptists.  The "hell" card is played by those who want control over you.  Think of yourself as a victim of abuse.

The abuse victim retains a fascination with his abuser, feels guilty for leaving the abuser, wants to reconcile with the abuser.  The feeling might not ever leave.  Here, it's Islam, but frankly you can replace "Islam" with old boyfriend, girlfriend, parent, etc. and the feeling would be the same, if the period of abuse was prolonged.

I went through a different kind of abuse (with a person), kidnapped when age 10 through age 12 when I was rescued.  I was stabbed so badly even those who helped do it got scared and called the police.  Recovery was quick, but to this day I cannot be angry at my abusers.  I flat don't know how.  To this day I want a reconciliation, but they are long dead.  I have no anger, and really no more fear -- that fear banished immediately, because a hospital orderly reminded me about God running the show -- but the memory lingers.

That's how abuse affects the mind.  Kinda like a cold you can't get rid of.

Religion is always an abuser, no matter what name it has.  Satan invented religion in Genesis 3.
kafir forever

Thanks Brainout.  You anticipated some of what I intended to develop in this thread.  It does not matter what the External Identity actually is.  Those who have it always run the risk of alienation and aloneness when the external source disappears.  And you are right, it can be anything from parents, to religion, to a social club, the company you retired from, or abusers.

I am sorry for your unfortunate experiences.  You have learned some lessons the hard way.

I really did not want to branch off into other religions, even though they all provide an External Identity.  What I want to focus on is how the fear of leaving the Islamic group identity works in conjunction with the first three fears that I mentioned to place an almost irrevocable grip on Muslims making it very difficult to apostasize.
brainout

Appropos to your goal about irrevocable grip, Youtube has a number of muslim conversion-to-Christianity videos.  While watching them, I came to the same conclusions as you list in this thread, about fear and what type.  The videos themselves are insightful, but even more so, is the commentary on them.  Muslims come out of the woodwork to condemn the converter.  The lady doth protest way too much.  

Finally, out of pity, I started making comments back to them warning them how they were displaying the very hatred they accuse in non-Muslims, how that's a defense mechanism called "projection", and how Christians don't descend en masse to Christians-convert-to-Islam videos, spewing the same invective.

And all that warning, doesn't penetrate.  In one of Ergun Caner's videos he says it takes  Muslim up to 7 years to get out, with an average of 3 years.

I made a Favorites collection of these videos.  You can access them here.

I now realize that for a Muslim to leave Islam is the hardest thing on earth.  Made me think of Germany's reaction when it 'woke up' from Hitler.  So now I think the best help a Muslim can get to leave, is from an EX-Muslim.  My jumping in and trying to reason with them is for nought.  You guys are their best guides out.
Baal

I wonder how many years is Ahmed Bahgat on?
Is he nearing his Seven years yet?

IMO Ahmed actually revels in the fear of the koran, he loves it, it is like fuel to him. In his mind he placed himself in the position of the guy that will make it. The guy that is not going to burn. And then all the fear in islam became like a TV show for him.

I wonder when is he going to play the reverse pascal's wager.
kafir forever

brainout wrote:
Appropos to your goal about irrevocable grip, Youtube has a number of muslim conversion-to-Christianity videos.  While watching them, I came to the same conclusions as you list in this thread, about fear and what type.  The videos themselves are insightful, but even more so, is the commentary on them.  Muslims come out of the woodwork to condemn the converter.  The lady doth protest way too much.  

Finally, out of pity, I started making comments back to them warning them how they were displaying the very hatred they accuse in non-Muslims, how that's a defense mechanism called "projection", and how Christians don't descend en masse to Christians-convert-to-Islam videos, spewing the same invective.

And all that warning, doesn't penetrate.  In one of Ergun Caner's videos he says it takes  Muslim up to 7 years to get out, with an average of 3 years.

I made a Favorites collection of these videos.  You can access them here.

I now realize that for a Muslim to leave Islam is the hardest thing on earth.  Made me think of Germany's reaction when it 'woke up' from Hitler.  So now I think the best help a Muslim can get to leave, is from an EX-Muslim.  My jumping in and trying to reason with them is for nought.  You guys are their best guides out.


Thanks brainout for the link.  I haven't watched the videos yet, but I will.

Certainly, an ex-muslim can help, but only if that person has come to grips with, and disposed of, the Islamic External Group Identity problem I mentioned.  What I am hoping to lead up to is a practical way of dealing with that.  It is my assertion then when that identity is replaced by a strong Internal Individual Identity, the apostate, or soon to be apostate, will be able to deal with all of the other fears I listed.  The issue is to find a way to replace the group identity with a personal one that is so strong, the group identity can never EVER take hold again.
kafir forever

Baal wrote:
I wonder how many years is Ahmed Bahgat on?
Is he nearing his Seven years yet?

IMO Ahmed actually revels in the fear of the koran, he loves it, it is like fuel to him. In his mind he placed himself in the position of the guy that will make it. The guy that is not going to burn. And then all the fear in islam became like a TV show for him.

I wonder when is he going to play the reverse pascal's wager.


I think Ahmed Bahgat's fear of Islamic Hell is so strong, he has to totally immerse himself in Islam and try to believe he is right, even if he has to distort what the Quran has to say.  I think you are right about him wanting to be the guy who will make it, but I don't think he actually revels in it in a joyful way.  He is scared shitless, and needs to make sure, in his own mind, that he can make it.
Raza

There is suppose to be fear in Islam and you are to fear the one and only creator of the Universe.
kafir forever

Raza wrote:
There is suppose to be fear in Islam and you are to fear the one and only creator of the Universe.


I know that, and that is what I think is wrong with it.  All cults require some kind of fear in its members to try to hold them to it.  What's worse is, it is the fear of a fiction -- a figment of Mohammed's hallucinations.

All cults also require each member to have an External Identity which is that of the cult itself.  Fear of what the other cult members might think of you, or worse yet do to you, is another essential ingredient in keeping members in line.

Islam is a very well designed cult that makes it very, very difficult to leave.
Raza

All religion and cults have fears as one of the factors is because you are fearing the only and only God.

I don't get what you are getting, there shouldn't be fear in rejecting God?
Islam should remove the segment where you should fear God?
kafir forever

Raza wrote:
All religion and cults have fears as one of the factors is because you are fearing the only and only God.

I don't get what you are getting, there shouldn't be fear in rejecting God?
Islam should remove the segment where you should fear God?


I know all religions use fear as a motivator, and I reject that wholeheartedly, but Islam goes one step further and threatens to kill the apostate in the here and now.  It uses fear of the death penalty for apostasy, and the fear of losing one's family, as well as the fear of God/Hell. Other religions just use the fear of God/Hell by making the absurd assertion that God will take care of you later.

What I am saying is there should be no fear of God/Hell until/unless you know there is such a creature, and to threaten apostates with murder in the here and now for that rejection is criminal.
brainout

kafir forever wrote:
brainout wrote:
Appropos to your goal about irrevocable grip, Youtube has a number of muslim conversion-to-Christianity videos.  While watching them, I came to the same conclusions as you list in this thread, about fear and what type.  The videos themselves are insightful, but even more so, is the commentary on them.  Muslims come out of the woodwork to condemn the converter.  The lady doth protest way too much.  

Finally, out of pity, I started making comments back to them warning them how they were displaying the very hatred they accuse in non-Muslims, how that's a defense mechanism called "projection", and how Christians don't descend en masse to Christians-convert-to-Islam videos, spewing the same invective.

And all that warning, doesn't penetrate.  In one of Ergun Caner's videos he says it takes  Muslim up to 7 years to get out, with an average of 3 years.

I made a Favorites collection of these videos.  You can access them here.

I now realize that for a Muslim to leave Islam is the hardest thing on earth.  Made me think of Germany's reaction when it 'woke up' from Hitler.  So now I think the best help a Muslim can get to leave, is from an EX-Muslim.  My jumping in and trying to reason with them is for nought.  You guys are their best guides out.


Thanks brainout for the link.  I haven't watched the videos yet, but I will.

Certainly, an ex-muslim can help, but only if that person has come to grips with, and disposed of, the Islamic External Group Identity problem I mentioned.  What I am hoping to lead up to is a practical way of dealing with that.  It is my assertion then when that identity is replaced by a strong Internal Individual Identity, the apostate, or soon to be apostate, will be able to deal with all of the other fears I listed.  The issue is to find a way to replace the group identity with a personal one that is so strong, the group identity can never EVER take hold again.


Well, Baal spoke of Ahmed converting.  I respect Ahmed a bunch, and frankly he's already got an Individual Identity with "Allah".  I'm even counting on that.  For what God typically does with someone is first generate a VERTICAL RELATIONSHIP, never mind that the person's idea of God is mistakenly defined.  That is, He'll take a Hindu, a Buddhist, any strongly-yearning person in any faith, and then use the concepts of "God" the person has, to slowly guide him to the correct definition.

God does this.  Not man.  We humans are just used as exposure to ideas, and God really connects us all so that information He wants to build, is provided.  The person sees something someone posts, says, in some venue.  God alerts the hearer to that information.  It's like a seed, and if the person accepts the information even a little bit, it germinates.  Then the next seed, and so on.  Thousands of these in a single day.  Over time, they build up, and then the PERSON CHANGES HIS MIND, and it's all God doing the orchestration without violating volition even a dot.  Building one dot at a time.  "Precept on precept" is an aphoristic phrase to describe this, in Isaiah (28, I think, 1st third of the chapter).  In Phillippians 2:12-13 (?) Paul phrases it as "God works in you both to will, and to do" -- it's not coercion.

So in your assessment of shift from Group Identity (which is a major tactical goal of Satan, I wrote a webpage on that), to Individual Identity, you might want to focus on the Vertical.  Just the person and God.  Or, just the person and no God.

In every one of those conversion-to-Christianity videos, the former Muslims all said that they felt empty, especially since they were talking to Allah all the time, but got no answer.  That was the theme in the Dutch "Submission" movie too (the one for which Van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim).  The Muslim seeks love, a response from Allah.  Which is right and good.  Psychologically, if you talk to the floor or ceiling five times a day every day, you come to yearn for Someone to talk back.  Every video displays that yearning.

So the Muslim wants to HEAR FROM God.  When he does, that makes for the transition out from Group Identity, which is horizontal, to Individual Identity, which is Vertical -- toward God.  It's an easier transition to make.  So the question is, if "Allah" is not answering you, then maybe "God" isn't "Allah", but Someone Else.  Then it becomes a simple quest for "which God" WILL answer.

Now, here's the test for the answer of the Christian God:  you can ALWAYS but ALWAYS CONFIRM the answer you think you got, IN BIBLE.  That too, you'll see in the videos.  
  • A lot of them report dreams and visions, which of course makes us skeptical --
  • but in some of those videos, there is something which happens next outside the believer's control, and it always points to some doctrine in Bible which has the same content as the dream or vision.  Principle of two or more witnesses.  
  • You never go by dreams or visions without sound confirmation, since demons can send that junk to you as well.  
  • Personally, I don't believe God sends dreams or visions (Hebrews 1 tells you He doesn't do that anymore),
  • but when you get them, GOD then provides confirmation or rebuttal as to the truth of their CONTENT.  
  • Dreams and visions are very common.  
  • But you should always TEST the meaning, be bored with the supernaturality of it.  After all, I'm supernatural, compared to an ant.  So what's supernatural to us, is natural to those beings higher than us.  
  • So you want DIVINE confirmation or rebuttal, else you should ignore the supernatural stuff (or discount it as hallucinatory, bad dinner, whatever).
Then again, you're not interested in converting them to Christianity, maybe.  In any event, the point is, the way out of Group Identity is Vertical.  Seek WHO God really is, since "Allah" is not answering.  After all, the Real God will not answer to you if you call Him by the wrong NAME, for then He'd be lying.  If my name is "brainout" and you call me "Socrates" and I answer you, then I'm in effect claiming to be "Socrates" as well -- hence I'd be lying.  Exclamation
brainout

Raza wrote:
There is suppose to be fear in Islam and you are to fear the one and only creator of the Universe.


Yeah, Satan wants fear.  God wants love.  "Perfected [matured] Love DRIVES OUT FEAR", 1John 4:18;  and "We love, because He first loved us", 1John 4:19.  See, it's a downgrade, Islam.  Satan wants to take you guys back UNDER the earth where he thinks you belong.  Misery loves company, and misery uses fear to GET company.  Same ol', same ol'.

And Raza, you call that holy?  LOL.  Do you not see how the Qu'ran takes everything in Bible and REVERSES IT to deride anyone who believes in Qu'ran?  Golly, Ahmed's video on hell makes that so blazingly plain!

Oh well.  God will work on you, I have to let go.
kafir forever

Brainout, it is the person and no God that I am interested in.  When I use the term Group Identity, I am referring to the condition where an individual considers his self worth to be defined by what the group thinks of him, and by what the group prescribes as correct behavior. Anyone who has a Group Identity like this will feel alienation and aloneness if the group disappears.  Hence the feeling of aloneness in apostates.  On a far more benign scale, many retirees feel alone because they no longer associate in a career way with those with whom they spent a third of every working day.  If the person's sense of self worth was built, in part, on his work, then when he leaves it and the people he associated with, he will feel alone and alienated.  That is what I am referring to.

As for Individual Identity, I am referring to a person who has learned that his self worth is defined by what he does and thinks, not what anyone else thinks about him.  The so called "self-made man" who is strong enough to resist yielding to the will of others just because of what they think of him.  The man who will not be ruled by or accept an unearned guilt, for example.  I am not referring to criminals who think they can just go out and rape, pillage and plunder just because they think it is the right thing to do.  I do believe in moral absolutes, just not God-given.

Being an atheist, I am really not concerned with a vertical relationship with God, but for those who find that comfortable, so be it, just as long as that identity was not dictated by an outside group.  All religions that I know of, and there are many that I do not know about, try to impose a group identity in the name of God.  I also know that one does not need a religion to believe in God.  What I am objecting to is an imposed, external group identity.  I think the only way an apostate from Islam can overcome the feeling of fear and alienation is to develop a strong sense of self and self worth based on his own reasoning and accomplishments.  He has to learn to define himself, and not let Allah or some Imam do it for him, and that definition needs to include the certainty that Islam is a fraud, contrived by a madman for the purpose of controlling and conquering those he came in contact with.  That is why the fraud has so many fears built into it -- to control and hold onto its members.

To break out of Islam, the apostate has to overcome the fear of alienation and aloneness that goes with discarding an external identity that has literally defined his very reason for being and the meaning of his existence.  My assertion is that the most effective way of doing that is to replace the group identity with a personal identity that is so strong that he will never fall for that crap again.  For that to happen, the apostate's new personal identity must address the same issues -- the reason for his being and the meaning of his existence -- but that does not need an external identity.
brainout

kafir forever wrote:
Brainout, it is the person and no God that I am interested in.  When I use the term Group Identity, I am referring to the condition where an individual considers his self worth to be defined by what the group thinks of him, and by what the group prescribes as correct behavior. Anyone who has a Group Identity like this will feel alienation and aloneness if the group disappears.  Hence the feeling of aloneness in apostates.  On a far more benign scale, many retirees feel alone because they no longer associate in a career way with those with whom they spent a third of every working day.  If the person's sense of self worth was built, in part, on his work, then when he leaves it and the people he associated with, he will feel alone and alienated.  That is what I am referring to.

As for Individual Identity, I am referring to a person who has learned that his self worth is defined by what he does and thinks, not what anyone else thinks about him.  The so called "self-made man" who is strong enough to resist yielding to the will of others just because of what they think of him.  The man who will not be ruled by or accept an unearned guilt, for example.  I am not referring to criminals who think they can just go out and rape, pillage and plunder just because they think it is the right thing to do.  I do believe in moral absolutes, just not God-given.

Being an atheist, I am really not concerned with a vertical relationship with God, but for those who find that comfortable, so be it, just as long as that identity was not dictated by an outside group.  All religions that I know of, and there are many that I do not know about, try to impose a group identity in the name of God.  I also know that one does not need a religion to believe in God.  What I am objecting to is an imposed, external group identity.  I think the only way an apostate from Islam can overcome the feeling of fear and alienation is to develop a strong sense of self and self worth based on his own reasoning and accomplishments.  He has to learn to define himself, and not let Allah or some Imam do it for him, and that definition needs to include the certainty that Islam is a fraud, contrived by a madman for the purpose of controlling and conquering those he came in contact with.  That is why the fraud has so many fears built into it -- to control and hold onto its members.

To break out of Islam, the apostate has to overcome the fear of alienation and aloneness that goes with discarding an external identity that has literally defined his very reason for being and the meaning of his existence.  My assertion is that the most effective way of doing that is to replace the group identity with a personal identity that is so strong that he will never fall for that crap again.  For that to happen, the apostate's new personal identity must address the same issues -- the reason for his being and the meaning of his existence -- but that does not need an external identity.


I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Still, the way out is to beg the question OF the vertical.  If the person needs an external association, "God" is really the COMFORTABLE replacement for the Muslim, since his group enjoins everything to be done for, to, of "Allah".  So building on that, begging the question of getting "Allah" to ANSWER, well -- if he gets an answer that divorces him from the group and binds him to "Allah" alone, you've made progress.  If a different "God" answers, you've made progress still, for then any group OF that "God" will not be able to get its paws on him, as now a VERTICALITY has been bonded.

Of course, if there is NO answer, then maybe there is no "Allah" at all in any flavor, which suits your atheism just fine.  And then the individual will of course react, and that will protect him against the group.  When one finds out what he believed is a lie, it's a powerful force against joining some replacement group.  (Disillusionment leading to divorce makes one want to avoid remarriage, analogously.)

So whichever way it goes, the question to ask is, "well, has Allah ever ANSWERED you?"  I'm sure there are other approaches to use as well, but this is the one which pervades the conversion videos.  It would work equally well for conversion to a no-god-exists conclusion.
kafir forever

And I agree with you, Brainout.  Whatever it takes to get the Group Identity replaced with a solid Individual Identity is the way you break out of any cult, especially Islam.
brainout

kafir forever wrote:
And I agree with you, Brainout.  Whatever it takes to get the Group Identity replaced with a solid Individual Identity is the way you break out of any cult, especially Islam.


Yeah, well sometimes it takes a kidnapping. Smile  That's how it happened for me.  God uses everything. For those who read this and believe in God, I hereby officially testify that every evil gets turned into good with a bizillion percent interest, and now at age 54, I actually know how it works.  You don't need a church, a group, or any of that other folderol.  You just need Him.

Then again, you don't believe in God, so I'll shut up now, lol.
kafir forever

brainout wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
And I agree with you, Brainout.  Whatever it takes to get the Group Identity replaced with a solid Individual Identity is the way you break out of any cult, especially Islam.


Yeah, well sometimes it takes a kidnapping. Smile  That's how it happened for me.  God uses everything. For those who read this and believe in God, I hereby officially testify that every evil gets turned into good with a bizillion percent interest, and now at age 54, I actually know how it works.  You don't need a church, a group, or any of that other folderol.  You just need Him.

Then again, you don't believe in God, so I'll shut up now, lol.


You have your way, and I have mine.  What I want to do is help Islamic apostates see a way out -- any way out -- where they can free themselves from the grip of this evil called Islam.  I really do not care if they do it your way, or the way I would suggest, the result is the same -- a strong Internal Identity that can resist the appeal of a Group Identity.
brainout

Yeah, I agree, Kafir Forever.  My problem is I don't even understand how anyone could need or want to be part of a group;  how the group's approval or disapproval, would be weighty in one's own sense of self.  But then, I always avoided groups, prefer being alone.  Coming to these forums is as much "group" as I can tolerate, and even that, not for long.

I find any group involvement oppressive, even when it doesn't mean to be.  One-on-one is not confining.  Groupness is confining.

So what makes people love being in a group, in the first place?  Maybe if you define that, analyze it, a reader would see that self-definition by recourse to a group definition BELITTLES the self?  Does this help?  Thanks.
Fathom

Fear is what kept me connected to believing in God for so long. It wasn't the fear of a punishment as much as it was a fear of the unknown that comes with death.

Finally, I rationalized that no matter what happens, I am not guilty of anything worthy of eternal torture. No God would be that cruel. No God would condemn me just because a so-called prophet failed to convince me. It's not my fault that the evidence for God is not strong enough; it would be Gods fault. It's up to God himself to prove his existence to me, and if he fails to do that then he's to blame. I would say this right to his face because it's the truth. Expecting me to believe the words written in an old book without any further evidence is simply not good enough.

Then I thought about what the worse that could happen to me if God did not exist. I realized that once I am dead, I would never know anything again. There would be nothing to fear because I would simply cease to exist. I determined that being afraid of nothingness is pointless. Nothingness can not hurt me, torture me, or do anything to me at all.

Therefore, either way I can accept death and the consequences which follow. It's not my fault that I am not convinced, and if there is no God then it won't matter anyways because I will simply cease to exist and know nothing.

Now I can approach death fearlessly because no matter what happens, I'm going to be fine with it.
kafir forever

Fathom, you are finally making sense.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Khauf;

kafir forever wrote:
1. The fear of Islamic hell
2. The fear of the death penalty for apostasy
3. The fear of turning against friends and family
4. The fear and alienation that goes with the loss of the Group Identity

These are the specific fears that any Islamic Apostate has to deal with.  The last one is the most interesting, because if it can be dealt with, the others can be dealt with using specific strategies that are relevant to the apostate's specific situation.

I will elaborate further in later posts.
خوف. Fear.

I’ve had to cope with such fears for a long time now. I still fear the punishment of hell in the Afterlife, despite rationally explaining such an emotion away as an absurdity.

I cannot accept such a divinity as ‘God’ because the whole fear and punishment versus reward (conveniently the things you have to deny yourself such as alcohol and multiple sexual partners) smacks of what I like to call ‘The Santa Claus Syndrome’: God in this instance acts more like an entity who, as the popular song goes, ‘knows when you’ve been naughty’ and ‘knows when you’ve been nice’. Does the concept of God come down to something as crude as a kid’s fairy story? Confused
kafir forever

Re: Khauf;

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I’ve had to cope with such fears for a long time now. I still fear the punishment of hell in the Afterlife, despite rationally explaining such an emotion away as an absurdity.


Good for you. To make it stick within your own identity you must develop a sense of self-worth that makes it impossible for anyone, or any group, to convince you otherwise.

Quote:
I cannot accept such a divinity as ‘God’ because the whole fear and punishment versus reward (conveniently the things you have to deny yourself such as alcohol and multiple sexual partners) smacks of what I like to call ‘The Santa Claus Syndrome’: God in this instance acts more like an entity who, as the popular song goes, ‘knows when you’ve been naughty’ and ‘knows when you’ve been nice’. Does the concept of God come down to something as crude as a kid’s fairy story? Confused


It is precisely when I came to this conclusion, that God and Santa Clause are basically the same concept, that I walked away from any and all religions completely.  I did so with pride and conficence.  Why can't you do the same?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

I wish I could — I suppose I still have that lingering fear due to many years of having absorbed it. In the same way, though I don’t ‘fear’ it, I couldn’t ever bring myself to eat any pig products because I’ve grown up with its forbidden nature drilled into me. Even now the smell of pork, etc. makes me feel nauseous. Funnily enough, taking up drinking alcohol didn’t seem nearly as difficult!

I want to go back to what you wrote about fear, especially this bit:
Quote:
4. The fear and alienation that goes with the loss of the Group Identity
I kept thinking about this at work today (while checking out the hot babes wandering in and asking me to service them, haha).

I do like quite a few aspects of the South Asian culture I grew up in: the closeness of family, the support, the food. However, I have a lot of love for the Western culture I grew up in — but if I disassociate completely from the life I knew I would feel alienated and bereft of some sort of Group Identity. Although I love Western music, poetry, books, some of the people, I cannot enjoy ‘pub culture’ (and couldn’t even when I used to drink).

More importantly, although I question Islam as I question any religious system, I do not harbour any particular hatred for it and wouldn’t want to associate with those who want to vilify and attack it. So I wouldn’t fit in with those sorts of people either.

I have quite a lot of friends outside of Islam (and never really grew up with Muslim friends) so I suppose it doesn’t bother me that much, but I still need that help and support to take such a drastic step. But, of course, once you leave that Comfort Zone you used to know it should get easier… Shouldn’t it?
kafir forever

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I wish I could — I suppose I still have that lingering fear due to many years of having absorbed it. In the same way, though I don’t ‘fear’ it, I couldn’t ever bring myself to eat any pig products because I’ve grown up with its forbidden nature drilled into me. Even now the smell of pork, etc. makes me feel nauseous. Funnily enough, taking up drinking alcohol didn’t seem nearly as difficult!

I want to go back to what you wrote about fear, especially this bit:
Quote:
4. The fear and alienation that goes with the loss of the Group Identity
I kept thinking about this at work today (while checking out the hot babes wandering in and asking me to service them, haha).

I do like quite a few aspects of the South Asian culture I grew up in: the closeness of family, the support, the food. However, I have a lot of love for the Western culture I grew up in — but if I disassociate completely from the life I knew I would feel alienated and bereft of some sort of Group Identity. Although I love Western music, poetry, books, some of the people, I cannot enjoy ‘pub culture’ (and couldn’t even when I used to drink).

More importantly, although I question Islam as I question any religious system, I do not harbour any particular hatred for it and wouldn’t want to associate with those who want to vilify and attack it. So I wouldn’t fit in with those sorts of people either.

I have quite a lot of friends outside of Islam (and never really grew up with Muslim friends) so I suppose it doesn’t bother me that much, but I still need that help and support to take such a drastic step. But, of course, once you leave that Comfort Zone you used to know it should get easier… Shouldn’t it?


It only becomes easier if you are ready to substitute your own personally convictions that are grounded in what you think, not what the group thinks.

For example, do you believe Murder is immoral?  If so, is it because some god-based religion told you so, or can you defend it yourself on grounds based on reason alone, totally absent any concept of god or religion?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

None of my morality likes and dislikes have ever come to me because some religion told me to think that way. I dislike murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, to keep order, and so forth. Nothing to do with some divine entity randomly assigning qualities like ‘good’ or ‘evil’ to arbitrary actions!
kafir forever

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
None of my morality likes and dislikes have ever come to me because some religion told me to think that way. I dislike murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, to keep order, and so forth. Nothing to do with some divine entity randomly assigning qualities like ‘good’ or ‘evil’ to arbitrary actions!


The point I was making is that unless you can defend such positions without any reference to god, religion or any external group think, you do not have a personal identity.

As for being against murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, can you get more basic and fundamental than that?  Is there anything in the very nature of Man that would justify your beliefs?  If there is, and if you can defend it, then you are on your way.

When you can reach the point where you can categorically deny, and justfity, the absurdity of Islamic (or any other religion for that matter) Hell as a total fabrication for the control of mankind, then you can shed, without fear or guilt, the absurdity of Islam (fear #1).

Once you do that, fears #2 and 3 become manageable within the specific circumstance of the apostate. If your personal identity cannot be replaced by another group identity, you are free, without fear or guilt.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Thanks Smile You’ve really made me think deeply about this.
kafir forever

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Thanks Smile You’ve really made me think deeply about this.


That is my goal.  Please continue the dialogue. Others can benefit from it.

Cheers,
KF
AhmedBahgat

Fear  of Allah is an important part of being a believer, you can't believe without fearing Him, this is because He can do anything to you (regardless fair or not) and you still can't do shit about it,

Allah clearly explained such important issue in the Quran, and I have debated it big times with  the feel good man made religion followers on free-minds.org

Well, you can't just act brave against the God, the god is not a human like you, He can rip you and your family apart and you can't do shit about it

Salam
brainout

kafir forever wrote:
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
None of my morality likes and dislikes have ever come to me because some religion told me to think that way. I dislike murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, to keep order, and so forth. Nothing to do with some divine entity randomly assigning qualities like ‘good’ or ‘evil’ to arbitrary actions!


The point I was making is that unless you can defend such positions without any reference to god, religion or any external group think, you do not have a personal identity.

As for being against murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, can you get more basic and fundamental than that?  Is there anything in the very nature of Man that would justify your beliefs?  If there is, and if you can defend it, then you are on your way.

When you can reach the point where you can categorically deny, and justfity, the absurdity of Islamic (or any other religion for that matter) Hell as a total fabrication for the control of mankind, then you can shed, without fear or guilt, the absurdity of Islam (fear #1).

Once you do that, fears #2 and 3 become manageable within the specific circumstance of the apostate. If your personal identity cannot be replaced by another group identity, you are free, without fear or guilt.


Since the last time you and I talked, I've thought over your goal in this thread.  Re the bolded portion of your quote above, I disagree, Kafir, for the following 9 reasons.  

1. A person oughtn't make lack of fear dependent on being an atheist.  That's as bad as making it depend on belief in God, however one defines "God".  One is truly independent only when he doesn't HAVE to believe based ON the concept of Hell, whether or not it exists.  One is truly independent only when he doesn't HAVE to believe in God or no-god, to feel he is a person.

2.  Morality doesn't depend on believing in God.  Morality is a natural part of human nature.  We like to be nice and we like others being nice to us.  We like to associate.  That religion arrogates to itself some claim of morality is beside the point.  You don't need to be religious to be moral.  You don't need to be an atheist to be moral.

    Personally, I've never found the morality or the hell argument compelling, but rather repelling, in terms of those who would convert me to their idea of God or no-god.  Those who contend God exists, always make the sickening argument that the atheist cannot be moral (especially Calvinists).  That is repelling and silly on its face.  Those who contend that one must be an atheist to be moral are alike repelling, because they are all reacting to the evil religious people they see.  It's not relevant, that people are immoral based on their beliefs. They will be, no matter what they believe, for immorality is part of human nature, too.

    Moreover, if hell is bashed into you as the motive to believe, then it's NOT GOD which is pitched as the motive.  Which means God is NOT WORTH believing in, due to Himself.  That's like marrying someone for money.  So no love there, no valid motive for believing.  Christians play the "hell" card, too.  Disgusting.  A real God who authors freedom would necessarily have to have a hell for those freely rejecting Him, if God really is gorgeous.  A Gorgeous God would not coerce anyone to love Him, but of course there have to be consequences.  What place can haters go?  But no real God would want anyone to go there, and would continually have the arms out, as it were, so the haters can get out, even once they go there.  So the "hell" card would not be played by any real God, but would only be disclosed.

    One of the irritating things about atheists is that they are just as irrational as the faith-iests, banging their own version of the "hell" card.  They are still iconoclastically reacting against some religion they now reject, and would very much like it if you join them, for that buttresses their claim in their mind.  So they go on crusades, too.  So if they find out maybe that God exists, it's just as hard for them as for the Muslim to leave Islam, for they've built up a "truth" which is now so bound up with their GROUP identity (as atheists) that they feel guilty and ashamed to 'leave' it in favor of whatever new faith idea beckons.  

    So see:  the atheists (not necessarily you) are not independent, either.  They just replaced one 'god' with another (no-god is a kind of god belief, just the same).
 3.  True independence is to NOT NEED the answer to go one way or the other.  And, truly:  none of us need the answer to be other than whatever it is.  We just become enamored of one idea versus another.  Fine.  But then we make the stupid mistake of claiming we need to be LOYAL to that idea, and then if we later discard it, on comes the fear, guilt, etc.

4.  Truth is like math.  It doesn't need your loyalty.  So you are free to reject or accept any idea, even the opposite idea, at any moment.  If I want, I can recant my faith in the Trinity and become a Muslim tomorrow -- or, an atheist -- and I could give a flip if anyone agrees with me.  It's MY LIFE.  That's independence.  
  • Christians are often just as sickening as Muslims when they make their faith a loyalty test.  Sorry, but it's MY LIFE, not theirs, and I'll do with MY LIFE what I want to.  
  • A real God who really exists would really not want me to be a slave, else why do I have a brain and free will.  
  • If God exists, robots don't please him.  
  • If I believe in God because I need to belong to a group, because my parents or friends believe, then it's really NOT God who is my god, but my god is instead ego, my fear, my need to belong to "x" faith.  So I am a liar, and of course then I'm disloyal to "God" (however defined) in all events.  
  • If God does not exist, well the entire loyalty question is first internal, be true to yourself.  
  • So if God and if no-god, either means, you have the right to CHANGE YOUR MIND.  Else there's no truth in the self.  No truth, if no freedom.
 5.  Thus one begins to take responsibility for one's own life.  Until you recognize YOUR LIFE IS YOUR OWN, never mind what other people think of you -- you're not really independent, no matter what you believe.  

6.  So at heart the fear problem is this:  fear of NOT being in a 'group'. Now, isn't that silly?  Am I worth more because I belong to a group?  Worth less?  Why should any group to which I ostensibly or really belong, be a criterion of my personal worth?  That means I have no worth of my own, so belonging to a group doesn't GIVE me a worth, since I have none on my own.

7.  So the solution to independence is, I HAVE MY OWN LIFE.  Not, what beliefs I have about life.  Beliefs can be changed, like clothes.  But the person remains.

8.  I submit love and need are mutually-exclusive.  If you need someone to feel 'complete', then you cannot love that person.  So until you are independent, you cannot love.  It's a much bigger question than fear, and of course fear and love are mutually exclusive.

    Therefore: if God exists, it's His GORGEOUS NATURE which would be compelling, a desire to know and be with God -- just because.  Nothing else warrants consideration.  If you fear God, then you cannot love God.  If God wanted you to fear, then there is no God.  For God Himself cannot exist, if fear itself is a need of God: 1John4:17-19 in Bible, sums that up rather well.
 9.  In sum: if Hell exists and God exists, God doesn't want you going there.  So it's irrelevant if God, whether Hell exists.  So too, if no god exists as you believe, then hell is not relevant.  There is no need to recant what is not relevant.  A need to recant, is a dependence.  So too, a fear of recanting.  Either way, if there is a God, He'd surely not be a God of fear.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Responses to brainout & AhmedBahgat:

Thanks, brainout, for your detailed and obviously well–thought–out post. However, you reach this conclusion (I highlight passages I consider especially relevant):
brainout wrote:
6.  So at heart the fear problem is this:  fear of NOT being in a 'group'. Now, isn't that silly?  Am I worth more because I belong to a group?  Worth less?  Why should any group to which I ostensibly or really belong, be a criterion of my personal worth?  That means I have no worth of my own, so belonging to a group doesn't GIVE me a worth, since I have none on my own.

7.  So the solution to independence is, I HAVE MY OWN LIFE.


I submit that he stated exactly this when
kafir forever wrote:
unless you can defend such positions without any reference to god, religion or any external group think, you do not have a personal identity.
and when he exhorted me to
Quote:
substitute your own personal convictions that are grounded in what you think, not what the group thinks
(All emboldened emphases belong to me.)

AhmedBahgat wrote:
god is not a human like you, He can rip you and your family apart and you can't do shit about it

Salam
Typical ‘compulsion in religion’ nonsense that contradicts everything about the famously quoted passage from surah al–Baqara. Even when I thought I believed I considered that God should radiate Love and not Fear. I particularly love (read: feel amused by) the way you ended your diatribe with the ‘Arabi word ‘peace’! Rolling Eyes
AhmedBahgat

Re: Responses to brainout & AhmedBahgat:

AhmedBahgat wrote:
god is not a human like you, He can rip you and your family apart and you can't do shit about it

Salam


Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Typical ‘compulsion in religion’ nonsense that contradicts everything about the famously quoted passage from surah al–Baqara. Even when I thought I believed I considered that God should radiate Love and not Fear. I particular love (read: feel amused by) the way you ended your diatribe with the ‘Arabi word ‘peace’! Rolling Eyes



Ignorant, it seems you donlt understand the Quran, so stop resorting to it

there is no compulsion in religion as to a human forcing another, on the other hand all hmans are compilsed by Allah to believe

like or not, it is going to be tough luck to ya and your likes if Allah exists

also Ignorant, stop acting like the fool free-minders , what i meant by "Salam"  is a mere greetingl like bye, it has nothing to do with peace you fool, in fact I already classified you as an enemy of Allah due to the ignornace you promote against His religion, hence there will never be peace between us
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

So instead of educating me you would rather commit war on me (you yourself stated “there will never be peace between us”)? And come on, don’t you ever hear people say “Peace!” or “Peace out!” in English as a goodbye–styled salutation?

Also, why did you type “if Allah exists” (my emphasis). Surely in your mind he does?
brainout

Oh, Pazuzu, I was still editing and didn't see you respond.  Thanks.  What you quoted is no longer the same as what I wrote.  Ok, I see what you're saying re Kafir Forever's earlier statement (I'm typing as I read your post on-screen).  Yes, kafir is right (as usual), I just wanted to take apart the idea of recanting anything at all (i.e., hell) in my post.  You are free, Pazuzu (lol what a nickname you picked).  

You don't need to worship any golden calves;  surely religion wasn't an invention by any god worthy of that name. Smile  Omnipotent God doesn't need to threaten you every five seconds, doesn't want his believers doing that either, since obviously He can send a bolt of lightning down at any time if He wanted to make a dramatic statement.

And a loving God would not coerce you, but give you your space.  Of course if no god, then you are on your own, anyway.

I suspect that the real fear we all face is the knowledge that we ARE on our own.  Freedom is the hardest thing to have.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

brainout

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:


Yeppers.  I was thinking that.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

brainout wrote:
Yeppers.  I was thinking that.


Clickety–click the pic! Laughing
brainout

You read my mind, I WAS thinking of the movie, when I first saw it at its initial release in New York City.  LOL.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Drifting off–topic here, but I love the game Devil May Cry 3: Dante’s Awakening, where a ½–demon fights the forces of evil (utterly stylishly) to save humanity — and for a laugh. One of the Bosses he faces calls himself Beowulf, but looks almost exactly like Pazuzu!

Game character above, the pic I posted earlier underneath:


I’ll stop derailing this thread now… Embarassed
brainout

Well, Pazuzu looks a lot like demons in many cultures.  So who's copying who? Smile
AhmedBahgat

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
So instead of educating me you would rather commit war on me (you yourself stated “there will never be peace between us”)? And come on, don’t you ever hear people say “Peace!” or “Peace out!” in English as a goodbye–styled salutation?

Also, why did you type “if Allah exists” (my emphasis). Surely in your mind he does?



I'm not your babysitter to educate ya, how about you try and educate yourself

niw regarding If Allah exists, I said it from the persepctive of a kafir mind like you, because if I said it from my perspective you would have come with the lame typical crap of, prove that Allah exists which is 100% true under my perspective
kafir forever

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fear  of Allah is an important part of being a believer, you can't believe without fearing Him,


I agree, and that is part of my objection to all religions, especially Islam.  If you do not acknowledge His existence, then there is nothing to fear, right?

Quote:
this is because He can do anything to you (regardless fair or not) and you still can't do shit about it,


That is your assertion with absolutely NO evidence to suport it.

Quote:
Allah clearly explained such important issue in the Quran, and I have debated it big times with  the feel good man made religion followers on free-minds.org


Actually, it is Mohammed that explained it, not Allah.  Remember, Allah > Gabriel > Mohammed > Quran is hearsay evidence.

Quote:
Well, you can't just act brave against the God, the god is not a human like you, He can rip you and your family apart and you can't do shit about it

Salam


Assuming there is a God, for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever, so I submit you provide evidence of your claim.
AhmedBahgat

kafir forever wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fear  of Allah is an important part of being a believer, you can't believe without fearing Him,


I agree, and that is part of my objection to all religions, especially Islam.  If you do not acknowledge His existence, then there is nothing to fear, right?



Of course there will still be fear, the fear that He may exists, you know, Pasacal Wager

Quote:
this is because He can do anything to you (regardless fair or not) and you still can't do shit about it,


kafir forever wrote:
That is your assertion with absolutely NO evidence to suport it.


Well, I didn't invent what I said, it is written in the Quran by Him pesonally, now if you think a human wrote the Quran then you need to assert it by telling us who is that human(s)

Quote:
Allah clearly explained such important issue in the Quran, and I have debated it big times with  the feel good man made religion followers on free-minds.org


kafir forever wrote:
Actually, it is Mohammed that explained it, not Allah.  Remember, Allah > Gabriel > Mohammed > Quran is hearsay evidence.


Dimsissed

Quote:
Well, you can't just act brave against the God, the god is not a human like you, He can rip you and your family apart and you can't do shit about it

Salam


kafir forever wrote:
Assuming there is a God, for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever, so I submit you provide evidence of your claim.


I don't want you to submit, I want to to stay kafir forever then die as such, and if Allah exists, I will see you barbecued in hell

It's showtime
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

It amuses me no end the way AhmedBahgat repeatedly states ‘dismissed’ to points he can’t answer.

kafir forever

brainout wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
None of my morality likes and dislikes have ever come to me because some religion told me to think that way. I dislike murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, to keep order, and so forth. Nothing to do with some divine entity randomly assigning qualities like ‘good’ or ‘evil’ to arbitrary actions!


The point I was making is that unless you can defend such positions without any reference to god, religion or any external group think, you do not have a personal identity.

As for being against murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, can you get more basic and fundamental than that?  Is there anything in the very nature of Man that would justify your beliefs?  If there is, and if you can defend it, then you are on your way.

When you can reach the point where you can categorically deny, and justfity, the absurdity of Islamic (or any other religion for that matter) Hell as a total fabrication for the control of mankind, then you can shed, without fear or guilt, the absurdity of Islam (fear #1).

Once you do that, fears #2 and 3 become manageable within the specific circumstance of the apostate. If your personal identity cannot be replaced by another group identity, you are free, without fear or guilt.


Since the last time you and I talked, I've thought over your goal in this thread.  Re the bolded portion of your quote above, I disagree, Kafir, for the following 9 reasons.  

1. A person oughtn't make lack of fear dependent on being an atheist.  


Where did I say that?

Quote:
That's as bad as making it depend on belief in God, however one defines "God".  One is truly independent only when he doesn't HAVE to believe based ON the concept of Hell, whether or not it exists.  One is truly independent only when he doesn't HAVE to believe in God or no-god, to feel he is a person.


I agree completely.  That is part of my message of an Indepent Personal Identity.  When one can abandon the belief in God for reasons that can be justified by reason, then one is truly free.

Quote:
2.  Morality doesn't depend on believing in God.  Morality is a natural part of human nature.  


Yes. We agree on this.

Quote:
We like to be nice and we like others being nice to us.  We like to associate.  That religion arrogates to itself some claim of morality is beside the point.  You don't need to be religious to be moral.  You don't need to be an atheist to be moral.


YES, and you don't need to be religious to be moral!!!!!!!

Quote:
    Personally, I've never found the morality or the hell argument compelling, but rather repelling, in terms of those who would convert me to their idea of God or no-god.  Those who contend God exists, always make the sickening argument that the atheist cannot be moral (especially Calvinists).  


Stupid, with no concept of what morality is or where it comes from or why it exits.

Quote:
That is repelling and silly on its face.  Those who contend that one must be an atheist to be moral are alike repelling, because they are all reacting to the evil religious people they see.  It's not relevant, that people are immoral based on their beliefs. They will be, no matter what they believe, for immorality is part of human nature, too.


Of course it is a part of human nature, and it is, IMO, one of the defining characteristics of human nature.  WE CANNOT SURVIVE AS A SPECIES WITHOUT IT.!!!

Quote:
Moreover, if hell is bashed into you as the motive to believe, then it's NOT GOD which is pitched as the motive.  Which means God is NOT WORTH believing in, due to Himself.  That's like marrying someone for money.  So no love there, no valid motive for believing.  Christians play the "hell" card, too.  Disgusting.  A real God who authors freedom would necessarily have to have a hell for those freely rejecting Him, if God really is gorgeous.  A Gorgeous God would not coerce anyone to love Him, but of course there have to be consequences.  What place can haters go?  But no real God would want anyone to go there, and would continually have the arms out, as it were, so the haters can get out, even once they go there.  So the "hell" card would not be played by any real God, but would only be disclosed.


duh

Quote:
One of the irritating things about atheists is that they are just as irrational as the faith-iests, banging their own version of the "hell" card.  


Not me!!!

Quote:
They are still iconoclastically reacting against some religion they now reject, and would very much like it if you join them, for that buttresses their claim in their mind.  So they go on crusades, too.  So if they find out maybe that God exists, it's just as hard for them as for the Muslim to leave Islam, for they've built up a "truth" which is now so bound up with their GROUP identity (as atheists) that they feel guilty and ashamed to 'leave' it in favor of whatever new faith idea beckons.  


I need examples.  And don't give me that shit that no-god is another kind of god belief.  That is categorically not true.

Quote:
So see:  the atheists (not necessarily you) are not independent, either.  They just replaced one 'god' with another (no-god is a kind of god belief, just the same).


 3.  True independence is to NOT NEED the answer to go one way or the other.  And, truly:  none of us need the answer to be other than whatever it is.  We just become enamored of one idea versus another.  Fine.  But then we make the stupid mistake of claiming we need to be LOYAL to that idea, and then if we later discard it, on comes the fear, guilt, etc

4.  Truth is like math.  It doesn't need your loyalty.  So you are free to reject or accept any idea, even the opposite idea, at any moment.  If I want, I can recant my faith in the Trinity and become a Muslim tomorrow -- or, an atheist -- and I could give a flip if anyone agrees with me.  It's MY LIFE.  That's independence.  
  • Christians are often just as sickening as Muslims when they make their faith a loyalty test.  Sorry, but it's MY LIFE, not theirs, and I'll do with MY LIFE what I want to.  
  • A real God who really exists would really not want me to be a slave, else why do I have a brain and free will.  
  • If God exists, robots don't please him.  
  • If I believe in God because I need to belong to a group, because my parents or friends believe, then it's really NOT God who is my god, but my god is instead ego, my fear, my need to belong to "x" faith.  So I am a liar, and of course then I'm disloyal to "God" (however defined) in all events.  
  • If God does not exist, well the entire loyalty question is first internal, be true to yourself.  
  • So if God and if no-god, either means, you have the right to CHANGE YOUR MIND.  Else there's no truth in the self.  No truth, if no freedom.
 5.  Thus one begins to take responsibility for one's own life.  Until you recognize YOUR LIFE IS YOUR OWN, never mind what other people think of you -- you're not really independent, no matter what you believe.  

6.  So at heart the fear problem is this:  fear of NOT being in a 'group'.[/quote]

I never said it was. The fear is not being in a group, the fear is what happens when the individual leaves the group, or when the group disappears?

Quote:
Now, isn't that silly?  Am I worth more because I belong to a group?  Worth less?  Why should any group to which I ostensibly or really belong, be a criterion of my personal worth?  


Because you have accepted it as such because you have no Personal Individual Identity that can supercede the group identiy.

Quote:
That means I have no worth of my own, so belonging to a group doesn't GIVE me a worth, since I have none on my own.


Yes, you have no personal self-worth, and you have accepted the group identity as a substitute. THAT IS MY POINT!!!

If you belong to a group, and accept that groups beliefs as defining your own self-worth, then you have no self-worth except that ordained by the group.

Quote:
7.  So the solution to independence is, I HAVE MY OWN LIFE.  Not, what beliefs I have about life.  Beliefs can be changed, like clothes.  But the person remains.


Yes.  You must define yourself, and not allow any group to define your identity for you.

Quote:
8.  I submit love and need are mutually-exclusive.  If you need someone to feel 'complete', then you cannot love that person.  


You are a quick study.

Quote:
So until you are independent, you cannot love.  


Absolutely.

Quote:
It's a much bigger question than fear, and of course fear and love are mutually exclusive.

    Therefore: if God exists, it's His GORGEOUS NATURE which would be compelling, a desire to know and be with God -- just because.  Nothing else warrants consideration.  If you fear God, then you cannot love God.  If God wanted you to fear, then there is no God.  For God Himself cannot exist, if fear itself is a need of God: 1John4:17-19 in Bible, sums that up rather well.
 9.  In sum: if Hell exists and God exists, God doesn't want you going there.  So it's irrelevant if God, whether Hell exists.  So too, if no god exists as you believe, then hell is not relevant.  There is no need to recant what is not relevant.  A need to recant, is a dependence.  So too, a fear of recanting.  Either way, if there is a God, He'd surely not be a God of fear.


I am absolutely astounded by your response.  I agree with almost everything you claim.

I apologize for format problems.  I only have so much patience with resolving them, but it seems we are in much more agreement than we are in disagreement.  Please expound on where you think we disagree.
brainout

Quote:
kafir forever wrote:
brainout wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
None of my morality likes and dislikes have ever come to me because some religion told me to think that way. I dislike murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, to keep order, and so forth. Nothing to do with some divine entity randomly assigning qualities like ‘good’ or ‘evil’ to arbitrary actions!


The point I was making is that unless you can defend such positions without any reference to god, religion or any external group think, you do not have a personal identity.

As for being against murder, stealing, etc. based on mutual respect for human life and property and for the betterment of society, can you get more basic and fundamental than that?  Is there anything in the very nature of Man that would justify your beliefs?  If there is, and if you can defend it, then you are on your way.

When you can reach the point where you can categorically deny, and justfity, the absurdity of Islamic (or any other religion for that matter) Hell as a total fabrication for the control of mankind, then you can shed, without fear or guilt, the absurdity of Islam (fear #1).

Once you do that, fears #2 and 3 become manageable within the specific circumstance of the apostate. If your personal identity cannot be replaced by another group identity, you are free, without fear or guilt.


Since the last time you and I talked, I've thought over your goal in this thread.  Re the bolded portion of your quote above, I disagree, Kafir, for the following 9 reasons.  

1. A person oughtn't make lack of fear dependent on being an atheist.  


Where did I say that?

Quote:
That's as bad as making it depend on belief in God, however one defines "God".  One is truly independent only when he doesn't HAVE to believe based ON the concept of Hell, whether or not it exists.  One is truly independent only when he doesn't HAVE to believe in God or no-god, to feel he is a person.


I agree completely.  That is part of my message of an Indepent Personal Identity.  When one can abandon the belief in God for reasons that can be justified by reason, then one is truly free.

Quote:
2.  Morality doesn't depend on believing in God.  Morality is a natural part of human nature.  


Yes. We agree on this.

Quote:
We like to be nice and we like others being nice to us.  We like to associate.  That religion arrogates to itself some claim of morality is beside the point.  You don't need to be religious to be moral.  You don't need to be an atheist to be moral.


YES, and you don't need to be religious to be moral!!!!!!!

Quote:
    Personally, I've never found the morality or the hell argument compelling, but rather repelling, in terms of those who would convert me to their idea of God or no-god.  Those who contend God exists, always make the sickening argument that the atheist cannot be moral (especially Calvinists).  


Stupid, with no concept of what morality is or where it comes from or why it exits.

Quote:
That is repelling and silly on its face.  Those who contend that one must be an atheist to be moral are alike repelling, because they are all reacting to the evil religious people they see.  It's not relevant, that people are immoral based on their beliefs. They will be, no matter what they believe, for immorality is part of human nature, too.


Of course it is a part of human nature, and it is, IMO, one of the defining characteristics of human nature.  WE CANNOT SURVIVE AS A SPECIES WITHOUT IT.!!!

Quote:
Moreover, if hell is bashed into you as the motive to believe, then it's NOT GOD which is pitched as the motive.  Which means God is NOT WORTH believing in, due to Himself.  That's like marrying someone for money.  So no love there, no valid motive for believing.  Christians play the "hell" card, too.  Disgusting.  A real God who authors freedom would necessarily have to have a hell for those freely rejecting Him, if God really is gorgeous.  A Gorgeous God would not coerce anyone to love Him, but of course there have to be consequences.  What place can haters go?  But no real God would want anyone to go there, and would continually have the arms out, as it were, so the haters can get out, even once they go there.  So the "hell" card would not be played by any real God, but would only be disclosed.


duh

Quote:
One of the irritating things about atheists is that they are just as irrational as the faith-iests, banging their own version of the "hell" card.  


Not me!!!

Quote:
They are still iconoclastically reacting against some religion they now reject, and would very much like it if you join them, for that buttresses their claim in their mind.  So they go on crusades, too.  So if they find out maybe that God exists, it's just as hard for them as for the Muslim to leave Islam, for they've built up a "truth" which is now so bound up with their GROUP identity (as atheists) that they feel guilty and ashamed to 'leave' it in favor of whatever new faith idea beckons.  


I need examples.  And don't give me that shit that no-god is another kind of god belief.  That is categorically not true.

Quote:
So see:  the atheists (not necessarily you) are not independent, either.  They just replaced one 'god' with another (no-god is a kind of god belief, just the same).


 3.  True independence is to NOT NEED the answer to go one way or the other.  And, truly:  none of us need the answer to be other than whatever it is.  We just become enamored of one idea versus another.  Fine.  But then we make the stupid mistake of claiming we need to be LOYAL to that idea, and then if we later discard it, on comes the fear, guilt, etc

4.  Truth is like math.  It doesn't need your loyalty.  So you are free to reject or accept any idea, even the opposite idea, at any moment.  If I want, I can recant my faith in the Trinity and become a Muslim tomorrow -- or, an atheist -- and I could give a flip if anyone agrees with me.  It's MY LIFE.  That's independence.  
  • Christians are often just as sickening as Muslims when they make their faith a loyalty test.  Sorry, but it's MY LIFE, not theirs, and I'll do with MY LIFE what I want to.  
  • A real God who really exists would really not want me to be a slave, else why do I have a brain and free will.  
  • If God exists, robots don't please him.  
  • If I believe in God because I need to belong to a group, because my parents or friends believe, then it's really NOT God who is my god, but my god is instead ego, my fear, my need to belong to "x" faith.  So I am a liar, and of course then I'm disloyal to "God" (however defined) in all events.  
  • If God does not exist, well the entire loyalty question is first internal, be true to yourself.  
  • So if God and if no-god, either means, you have the right to CHANGE YOUR MIND.  Else there's no truth in the self.  No truth, if no freedom.
 5.  Thus one begins to take responsibility for one's own life.  Until you recognize YOUR LIFE IS YOUR OWN, never mind what other people think of you -- you're not really independent, no matter what you believe.  

6.  So at heart the fear problem is this:  fear of NOT being in a 'group'.


I never said it was. The fear is not being in a group, the fear is what happens when the individual leaves the group, or when the group disappears?

Quote:
Now, isn't that silly?  Am I worth more because I belong to a group?  Worth less?  Why should any group to which I ostensibly or really belong, be a criterion of my personal worth?  


Because you have accepted it as such because you have no Personal Individual Identity that can supercede the group identiy.

Quote:
That means I have no worth of my own, so belonging to a group doesn't GIVE me a worth, since I have none on my own.


Yes, you have no personal self-worth, and you have accepted the group identity as a substitute. THAT IS MY POINT!!!

If you belong to a group, and accept that groups beliefs as defining your own self-worth, then you have no self-worth except that ordained by the group.

Quote:
7.  So the solution to independence is, I HAVE MY OWN LIFE.  Not, what beliefs I have about life.  Beliefs can be changed, like clothes.  But the person remains.


Yes.  You must define yourself, and not allow any group to define your identity for you.

Quote:
8.  I submit love and need are mutually-exclusive.  If you need someone to feel 'complete', then you cannot love that person.  


You are a quick study.

Quote:
So until you are independent, you cannot love.  


Absolutely.

Quote:
It's a much bigger question than fear, and of course fear and love are mutually exclusive.

    Therefore: if God exists, it's His GORGEOUS NATURE which would be compelling, a desire to know and be with God -- just because.  Nothing else warrants consideration.  If you fear God, then you cannot love God.  If God wanted you to fear, then there is no God.  For God Himself cannot exist, if fear itself is a need of God: 1John4:17-19 in Bible, sums that up rather well.
 9.  In sum: if Hell exists and God exists, God doesn't want you going there.  So it's irrelevant if God, whether Hell exists.  So too, if no god exists as you believe, then hell is not relevant.  There is no need to recant what is not relevant.  A need to recant, is a dependence.  So too, a fear of recanting.  Either way, if there is a God, He'd surely not be a God of fear.


I am absolutely astounded by your response.  I agree with almost everything you claim.

I apologize for format problems.  I only have so much patience with resolving them, but it seems we are in much more agreement than we are in disagreement.  Please expound on where you think we disagree.


Hey, Kafir, reading your reply, responding passim.  I'm not good at interspersed quote replies.

I didn't say YOU said anyone should be dependent on being an atheist, but rather that the bolded "categorically deny" part of your quote brought the idea to mind.  None of what I said is personal against you.  Promise.  

I know you don't play the hell card.  I'm just talking generally.

Examples of no-god is just another god belief?  ANY kind of belief about "god" is a belief.  In the atheist's case, it's a belief about god that there is none.  That's all I meant.  Logically it's always true.


And I'm glad I made the rest of it clear enough to feed into your purpose, for I feel the purpose of your thread is a noble one.  I don't disagree with you at all.
brainout

There's something very wrong with this Archer's skin I'm using.  BRB.  Ok, I'm back now.  Switched to Last Crusade skin, hope it holds up.  I'm on a 1280x1024 monitor and the skin doesn't like that size.
kafir forever

AhmedBahgat wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fear  of Allah is an important part of being a believer, you can't believe without fearing Him,


I agree, and that is part of my objection to all religions, especially Islam.  If you do not acknowledge His existence, then there is nothing to fear, right?



Of course there will still be fear, the fear that He may exists, you know, Pasacal Wager


Of course I know Pascal's Wager, and it does not impress me in the least.  I do not fear in the least that a crackpot like Allah exists anywhere except in the imagination of people like you.

Quote:
Quote:
this is because He can do anything to you (regardless fair or not) and you still can't do shit about it,


kafir forever wrote:
That is your assertion with absolutely NO evidence to suport it.


Well, I didn't invent what I said, it is written in the Quran by Him pesonally,


So what?  You mean Allah > Gabriel > Mohammed > stupid Arabs.  Sorry, but hearsay evidence like that is DISMISSED.

Quote:
now if you think a human wrote the Quran then you need to assert it by telling us who is that human(s)


Uncle Mo, of course, and his accomplises after his death.

Quote:
Quote:
Allah clearly explained such important issue in the Quran, and I have debated it big times with  the feel good man made religion followers on free-minds.org


[quote="kafir forever"]Actually, it is Mohammed that explained it, not Allah.  Remember, Allah > Gabriel > Mohammed > Quran is hearsay evidence.


Dimsissed

Quote:
Well, you can't just act brave against the God, the god is not a human like you, He can rip you and your family apart and you can't do shit about it


Yeah, right.  And where is your evidence of that?

Quote:
kafir forever wrote:
Assuming there is a God, for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever, so I submit you provide evidence of your claim.


I don't want you to submit, I want to to stay kafir forever then die as such, and if Allah exists, I will see you barbecued in hell

It's showtime


Very Happy
AhmedBahgat

[quote="kafir forever"]
AhmedBahgat wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fear  of Allah is an important part of being a believer, you can't believe without fearing Him,


I agree, and that is part of my objection to all religions, especially Islam.  If you do not acknowledge His existence, then there is nothing to fear, right?



Of course there will still be fear, the fear that He may exists, you know, Pasacal Wager


Of course I know Pascal's Wager, and it does not impress me in the least.  I do not fear in the least that a crackpot like Allah exists anywhere except in the imagination of people like you.

Quote:
Quote:
this is because He can do anything to you (regardless fair or not) and you still can't do shit about it,


kafir forever wrote:
That is your assertion with absolutely NO evidence to suport it.


Well, I didn't invent what I said, it is written in the Quran by Him pesonally,


So what?  You mean Allah > Gabriel > Mohammed > stupid Arabs.  Sorry, but hearsay evidence like that is DISMISSED.

Quote:
now if you think a human wrote the Quran then you need to assert it by telling us who is that human(s)


Uncle Mo, of course, and his accomplises after his death.

Quote:
Quote:
Allah clearly explained such important issue in the Quran, and I have debated it big times with  the feel good man made religion followers on free-minds.org


kafir forever wrote:
Actually, it is Mohammed that explained it, not Allah.  Remember, Allah > Gabriel > Mohammed > Quran is hearsay evidence.


Dimsissed

Quote:
Well, you can't just act brave against the God, the god is not a human like you, He can rip you and your family apart and you can't do shit about it


Yeah, right.  And where is your evidence of that?

Quote:
kafir forever wrote:
Assuming there is a God, for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever, so I submit you provide evidence of your claim.


I don't want you to submit, I want to to stay kafir forever then die as such, and if Allah exists, I will see you barbecued in hell

It's showtime


Very Happy


I guess it was my fault to reply to a filthy freak like you

you are dismissed in the rubbish bin and will be added to the W O S some time later you sharmoot
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Wow, resorting to personal insults about whores now? How deliciously and pathetically childish! Does your Islam teach you to do this?
kafir forever

[quote="AhmedBahgat"]
kafir forever wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fear  of Allah is an important part of being a believer, you can't believe without fearing Him,


I agree, and that is part of my objection to all religions, especially Islam.  If you do not acknowledge His existence, then there is nothing to fear, right?



Of course there will still be fear, the fear that He may exists, you know, Pasacal Wager


Of course I know Pascal's Wager, and it does not impress me in the least.  I do not fear in the least that a crackpot like Allah exists anywhere except in the imagination of people like you.

Quote:
Quote:
this is because He can do anything to you (regardless fair or not) and you still can't do shit about it,


kafir forever wrote:
That is your assertion with absolutely NO evidence to suport it.


Well, I didn't invent what I said, it is written in the Quran by Him pesonally,


So what?  You mean Allah > Gabriel > Mohammed > stupid Arabs.  Sorry, but hearsay evidence like that is DISMISSED.

Quote:
now if you think a human wrote the Quran then you need to assert it by telling us who is that human(s)


Uncle Mo, of course, and his accomplises after his death.

Quote:
Quote:
Allah clearly explained such important issue in the Quran, and I have debated it big times with  the feel good man made religion followers on free-minds.org


kafir forever wrote:
Actually, it is Mohammed that explained it, not Allah.  Remember, Allah > Gabriel > Mohammed > Quran is hearsay evidence.


Dimsissed

Quote:
Well, you can't just act brave against the God, the god is not a human like you, He can rip you and your family apart and you can't do shit about it


Yeah, right.  And where is your evidence of that?

Quote:
kafir forever wrote:
Assuming there is a God, for which you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever, so I submit you provide evidence of your claim.


I don't want you to submit, I want to to stay kafir forever then die as such, and if Allah exists, I will see you barbecued in hell

It's showtime


Very Happy


I guess it was my fault to reply to a filthy freak like you


Ad homininem is no response.

Quote:
you are dismissed in the rubbish bin and will be added to the W O S some time later you sharmoot


A typical response from someone who has no response. Laughing
AhmedBahgat

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Wow, resorting to personal insults about whores now? How deliciously and pathetically childish! Does your Islam teach you to do this?



why don't you go and fuk yourself?

I also decided to add you to the W O S

welcome to my world
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

LOLZ0R!

AhmedBahgat wrote:
why don't you go and fuk yourself?

I also decided to add you to the W O S

welcome to my world

Why don’t you learn how to spell the word ‘fuck’, Mr Munafiq? As your precious icon, the Qur’an, states: “Argue only in the best way” (Surah al–‘Ankabut 29:46).
Mutley

cool costume !!!!

 

No...really man...I mean it this time.



Laughing   Laughing   Laughing   Laughing
Mutley

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Wow, resorting to personal insults about whores now? How deliciously and pathetically childish! Does your Islam teach you to do this?



why don't you go and fuk yourself?

I also decided to add you to the W O S

welcome to my world


W O S....your world....hmmmm..... Is this a Jeopardy episode? Okay Alex.... my answer is: "What: is the World of Silliness"



ding ding ding ding...yes!!! W O S stands for the World of Silliness when mentioned by silly people. And with a name like Baghat ya' gotta' be silly.



BAG HAT !!!!!

AhmedBahgat

Re: LOLZ0R!

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
why don't you go and fuk yourself?

I also decided to add you to the W O S

welcome to my world

Why don’t you learn how to spell the word ‘fuck’, Mr Munafiq? As your precious icon, the Qur’an, states: “Argue only in the best way” (Surah al–‘Ankabut 29:46).



The Quran said argue in the best with the sane people , not the freaks enemy of God and His message you filthy kafir bound to hell

why don't you go and fuk yourself again you filthy wanker?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

I have plenty of hot babes to do that for me — don’t ever need to fuck myself, lolz!

And thanks for the compliment, Mutley. The suit you see in my avatar houses The Spirit of Jazz. And he will enter AhmedBaghat and wear him like a glove. Creep around inside him like a warm kitten!
AhmedBahgat

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I have plenty of hot babes to do that for me — don’t ever need to fuck myself, lolz!


Sure, i know how they do it to you, I got you on film, would you like to see it?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Wahey!

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I got you on film, would you like to see it?

Ooooh, yes please! Wait, let me guess… You have one of those ‘dismissed’ films, don’t you? Rolling Eyes

And by the way, when you put me on your Wall of Shame, make sure you get my religion right: Speedrunning.
AhmedBahgat

Re: Wahey!

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I got you on film, would you like to see it?

Ooooh, yes please! Wait, let me guess… You have one of those ‘dismissed’ films, don’t you? Rolling Eyes


No. It is one of your x-rated films that you made, I will hold on it for now, however you can enjoy the following film showing your biogrpahy:



Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
And by the way, when you put me on your Wall of Shame, make sure you get my religion right: Speedrunning.


sure
All_Brains

Hello Ahmed

Could you please do yourself a great favor and not resort to such obvious ad hominem and personal insults.

As you can see most of the members here are quite polite and mostly try to focus on the ideas and not the personnel.

I know that you're such an intelligent and knowledgeable man and should not lose your nerves when your religion is respectfully critiqued.

BMZ himself has been reflecting an excellent image and have himself criticized such behavior.

It seems to me that you're a little bored!! Would you like a personal one on one debate, so that we can all focus on the
"very important topic" at hand???

p.s: Ad-hominem never really stops and subtlety is a key! Wink
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed

Could you please do yourself a great favor and not resort to such obvious ad hominem and personal insults.

As you can see most of the members here are quite polite and mostly try to focus on the ideas and not the personnel.

I know that you're such an intelligent and knowledgeable man and should not lose your nerves when your religion is respectfully critiqued.

BMZ himself has been reflecting an excellent image and have himself criticized such behavior.

It seems to me that you're a little bored!! Would you like a personal one on one debate, so that we can all focus on the
"very important topic" at hand???

p.s: Ad-hominem never really stops and subtlety is a key! Wink



I'm sorry mate, I reply to the peolple the way they earned it, that freak is a liar because he is the same freak on FM, 2 he attacks and lie about my religion, therefore if you will allow your site to be anti Islam, then you have to allow that a msulims be anti enemy of islam

Salam
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ahmed

Could you please do yourself a great favor and not resort to such obvious ad hominem and personal insults.

As you can see most of the members here are quite polite and mostly try to focus on the ideas and not the personnel.

I know that you're such an intelligent and knowledgeable man and should not lose your nerves when your religion is respectfully critiqued.

BMZ himself has been reflecting an excellent image and have himself criticized such behavior.

It seems to me that you're a little bored!! Would you like a personal one on one debate, so that we can all focus on the
"very important topic" at hand???

p.s: Ad-hominem never really stops and subtlety is a key! Wink



I'm sorry mate, I reply to the peolple the way they earned it, that freak is a liar because he is the same freak on FM, 2 he attacks and lie about my religion, therefore if you will allow your site to be anti Islam, then you have to allow that a msulims be anti enemy of islam

Salam


This forum is NOT an anti Islam or in fact anti anything!

This forum is deigned for people to question and reject ignorance and fear when established.

Most Ex-Muslims here including myself have reached that conclusion through the use of "their logic" and we are here to discuss with our Muslim friends why we have left Islam and why do we think the way we think...

We will try to convince you and you'll try to convince us....and sometimes things may be left undecided!

Each of us have the full freedom to choose their path and carry the consequences and responsibilities of their choices, until that point of time we should continue to ask and refer to the first and last prophet in my opinion: Our Brains!!

Salam ya Sahbi!
AhmedBahgat

I find it really ridiculous that people get offended when I make a movie about them while they expect that we won't be offended when they mock our religion and our prophet

if you want to play the mocking game, then get ready for a big fight.

Now being an ex muslim as you deluded freaks are is not pissing me off at all, I'm glad that the likes of yous have left this great religion, now no one of you should ever dare and come and bloody cry in a comment to me to why they fukin left Islam, what load of non sense is that lil girls?
AhmedBahgat

Hello A_B

if your forum is anti anyting, then you should accomadate me as an anti those who are anti my religion


regarding the one on one debate, sure, open any subject you want and invite me

Salam
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello A_B

if your forum is anti anyting, then you should accomadate me as an anti those who are anti my religion


regarding the one on one debate, sure, open any subject you want and invite me

Salam


I think you mis-read my post. The forum is NOT anti anything!

I will post something towards the end of the week, so that we can have the weekend for continuation of thoughts.

You have a great sense of humor Ahmad, so use it more often should you find it imperative to have someone on!!!

Light sarcastic humor is better any day than a straight blunt insult!
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Oh dear!

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I find it really ridiculous that people get offended when I make a movie about them while they expect that we won't be offended when they mock our religion and our prophet

Did I express ANY offence at that video at all? No I didn’t, despite your superimposing the faces of the rather rubbish band Slipknot over the face in my avatar (which, by the way, simply shows a character from the comedy programme The Mighty Boosh). Love the way you misspelt my name. A question about that: did you do that completely accidentally? Or deliberately like one of those Rushdie–esque Mahound things?
Mutley

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I find it really ridiculous that people get offended when I make a movie about them while they expect that we won't be offended when they mock our religion and our prophet

if you want to play the mocking game, then get ready for a big fight.

Now being an ex muslim as you deluded freaks are is not pissing me off at all, I'm glad that the likes of yous have left this great religion,


Why is this religion great?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Mutley wrote:
Why is this religion great?
To quote from an episode of The Simpsons:

“‘Great’ meaning ‘large’ or ‘immense’,
We use it in the pejorative sense!”

 
AhmedBahgat

Mutley wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I find it really ridiculous that people get offended when I make a movie about them while they expect that we won't be offended when they mock our religion and our prophet

if you want to play the mocking game, then get ready for a big fight.

Now being an ex muslim as you deluded freaks are is not pissing me off at all, I'm glad that the likes of yous have left this great religion,


Why is this religion great?



well, I have no bones left, let me try some words this time

for a kafir like you, you don't need religions, therefore butt out

for a Mumin (a believer) like me, I need religions and there is no doubt that the religions of Islam is the greatest of'm all, the Quran explains everything I need regarding the religion I want, unlike all other corrupt religions, not saying that Islam is not corrupted, in fact it is, however one of the greatest thing about islam that I can pass all that corruption by referring to the unchanges main source of that religion, the Quran, now considering my fluency in Arabic, then, I have no bloody problem understanding my religion

I hope you get it this time, mute
kafir forever

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Mutley wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I find it really ridiculous that people get offended when I make a movie about them while they expect that we won't be offended when they mock our religion and our prophet

if you want to play the mocking game, then get ready for a big fight.

Now being an ex muslim as you deluded freaks are is not pissing me off at all, I'm glad that the likes of yous have left this great religion,


Why is this religion great?



well, I have no bones left, let me try some words this time


Who needs bones?  Why wait so long for words?  Just try to make them count.  Very Happy

Quote:
for a kafir like you, you don't need religions, therefore butt out


Why butt out?

Quote:
for a Mumin (a believer) like me, I need religions


Of course you do.  You are a coward.

Quote:
and there is no doubt that the religions of Islam is the greatest of'm all,


Of course there is doubt.  There is every doubt, not the least of which is the Islamic description of Hell.

Quote:
the Quran explains everything I need regarding the religion I want,


Which says a lot about your intellect, or lack thereof.

Quote:
unlike all other corrupt religions, not saying that Islam is not corrupted, in fact it is, however one of the greatest thing about islam that I can pass all that corruption by referring to the unchanges main source of that religion, the Quran, now considering my fluency in Arabic, then, I have no bloody problem understanding my religion

I hope you get it this time, mute


Yawn.  Laughing
kafir forever

Re: Fear and Islam

cosmicdancer wrote:
I have often wondered why it took me so long to reject Islam - when in reality I had stopped believing in it about 6 years ago.

I think the reason is FEAR.

Fear still haunts me - even today.

But when all is said and done - fear is not a good reason for believing.


We seem to have departed from the original theme of this thread.  Could we get back to it?

I posited some very real fears on the first page of this thread.  Is anyone capable of responding to them?
kafir forever

kafir forever wrote:
1. The fear of Islamic hell
2. The fear of the death penalty for apostasy
3. The fear of turning against friends and family
4. The fear and alienation that goes with the loss of the Group Identity

These are the specific fears that any Islamic Apostate has to deal with.  The last one is the most interesting, because if it can be dealt with, the others can be dealt with using specific strategies that are relevant to the apostate's specific situation.

I will elaborate further in later posts.


Here they are for those who are too lazy to look them up.
HomoErectus

And without those fears, islam wouldn't work !
kafir forever

HomoErectus wrote:
And without those fears, islam wouldn't work !


Precisely.  My contention is that anyone who can overcome #4 by replacing the group identity with a sufficiently strong personal identity can make #1 go away out of just plain old common sense, and the others will get managed according to the personal circumstances of the apostate, and that is how someone can leave this cult.
AhmedBahgat

[quote="kafir forever"]
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Mutley wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I find it really ridiculous that people get offended when I make a movie about them while they expect that we won't be offended when they mock our religion and our prophet

if you want to play the mocking game, then get ready for a big fight.

Now being an ex muslim as you deluded freaks are is not pissing me off at all, I'm glad that the likes of yous have left this great religion,


Why is this religion great?



well, I have no bones left, let me try some words this time


kafir forever wrote:
Who needs bones?


The dogs

kafir forever wrote:
 Why wait so long for words?  Just try to make them count.  Very Happy


well, my words and your words will be counted and on the JD both of us will be held responsible to every letter they said

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
for a kafir like you, you don't need religions, therefore butt out


Why butt out?


Beause you are a kafir who decalred that you don't need religion, so stop being itchy, in fact it's clear that you are fearing that God exists and I can assure you that the fear you have must stay till the last breath you take, for me I don't have such fear.

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
for a Mumin (a believer) like me, I need religions


Of course you do.  You are a coward.


well, to be classified as a coward for fearing God, is indeed an honour, thanks for that

kafir forever wrote:
Quote:
and there is no doubt that the religions of Islam is the greatest of'm all,


Of course there is doubt.  There is every doubt, not the least of which is the Islamic description of Hell.


well, with the kafirs, of course they must have doubt, but that is their fukin problem not mine nor any of the believers

now for the hell desriptions, well your rants won't save ya if it exists, you only have one option in this life, to only hope that it does not exist, and this wishful thinking should last with you till the last breath you take.

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
the Quran explains everything I need regarding the religion I want,


Which says a lot about your intellect, or lack thereof.


well, if I notice a dumb bum, I will dismiss him/her, I will dumber and lacking more inellect if I try to dialogue with such freaks

got the message dumber?

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
unlike all other corrupt religions, not saying that Islam is not corrupted, in fact it is, however one of the greatest thing about islam that I can pass all that corruption by referring to the unchanges main source of that religion, the Quran, now considering my fluency in Arabic, then, I have no bloody problem understanding my religion

I hope you get it this time, mute


Yawn.  Laughing


that was total crap pal, please don't yawn while talking to me, your mouth smell stinks
kafir forever

AhmedBahgat wrote:
well, my words and your words will be counted and on the JD both of us will be held responsible to every letter they said


That is your assertion for which you have absolutely no evidence.

Quote:
Beause you are a kafir who decalred that you don't need religion, so stop being itchy, in fact it's clear that you are fearing that God exists


How is that clear?  It is certainly not clear to me.

Quote:
and I can assure you that the fear you have must stay till the last breath you take, for me I don't have such fear.


What makes you think you can assure me of what I think?

Quote:
well, if I notice a dumb bum, I will dismiss him/her, I will dumber and lacking more inellect if I try to dialogue with such freaks

got the message dumber?


Ad hominem only exposes your lack of intellect and your lack of a defensible position in your argument, whatever your argument is.  It seems to be nothing more than Pascal's Wager.

Quote:
unlike all other corrupt religions, not saying that Islam is not corrupted, in fact it is, however one of the greatest thing about islam that I can pass all that corruption by referring to the unchanges main source of that religion, the Quran, now considering my fluency in Arabic, then, I have no bloody problem understanding my religion

I hope you get it this time, mute


Kafir Forever wrote:
Yawn.  Laughing


Quote:
that was total crap pal, please don't yawn while talking to me, your mouth smell stinks


Laughing  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

Dismissed!!
brainout

kafir forever wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
And without those fears, islam wouldn't work !


Precisely.  My contention is that anyone who can overcome #4 by replacing the group identity with a sufficiently strong personal identity can make #1 go away out of just plain old common sense, and the others will get managed according to the personal circumstances of the apostate, and that is how someone can leave this cult.


Agreed, kafir.  Look:  either God exists or does not.  If God exists, then PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP is what He wants, having made your soul in the first place.  A truly omnipotent God (the normal way of defining "God") doesn't need to be worshipped.  Doesn't need anything, but from LOVE would want to share Himself with whatever He creates.

So the entire "hell" and "fear" concept would not even be relevant, but a have-to.  Hence IF IF IF  God exists, then it doesn't convince/sell/help anyone not believing, to play the hell or fear cards.  At most, such statements would be a necessary disclosure, and certainly not a truncheon.

So IF IF IF God exists, "group identity" is THE LAST THING "God" would want.  For that competes in the relationship, which under this presumption would be vertical, exclusive, just God and you.  Private.  Sacrosanct.

Golly, I don't know who irritates me more:  the Muslims who cry religion (A GROUP THING, invented by Satan in Genesis 3), or the Christians who do it.  As my pastor likes to quip, "religion is the devil's ace trump."  The guy liked contract bridge, I guess.

Nice to see you still fighting on, kafir. Smile
kafir forever

brainout wrote:
Nice to see you still fighting on, kafir. Smile


Thanks, Brainout.  You are one of the more intelligent members out there. Even though we disagree on God, we agree on almost everything else.  I respect your opinions immensely because they are well thought out.
brainout

kafir forever wrote:
brainout wrote:
Nice to see you still fighting on, kafir. Smile


Thanks, Brainout.  You are one of the more intelligent members out there. Even though we disagree on God, we agree on almost everything else.  I respect your opinions immensely because they are well thought out.


You expressed my sentiments about you, too.  We both realize that we don't need to agree on God, that's a private and personal matter.  I don't know anyone else who agrees with me either, and especially not Christians.  That feeds right into what you've been saying all along:  INDEPENDENCE of the INDIVIDUAL.  Eye eye, sir!
kafir forever

brainout wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
brainout wrote:
Nice to see you still fighting on, kafir. Smile


Thanks, Brainout.  You are one of the more intelligent members out there. Even though we disagree on God, we agree on almost everything else.  I respect your opinions immensely because they are well thought out.


You expressed my sentiments about you, too.  We both realize that we don't need to agree on God, that's a private and personal matter.  I don't know anyone else who agrees with me either, and especially not Christians.  That feeds right into what you've been saying all along:  INDEPENDENCE of the INDIVIDUAL.  Eye eye, sir!


Thanks, Brainout.  I appreciate it.
HomoErectus

Dear kf

The question is, HOW to tell the muslims that this fear is baseless, can only be baseless, according to the inconsistencies of the quran.

And this fear is deeply implanted, since childhood days, when "jinns" were/are live creatures and they are just waiting for you, behind every dark corner...
I can remember this fear, although no muslim, but at that point its the same.

What can we possibly do, to get people out of this dungeon where the torture never stops !
Its threatening real life as well as the hereafter, endlessly, it seems, according to this brainwashing !
kafir forever

HomoErectus wrote:
Dear kf

The question is, HOW to tell the muslims that this fear is baseless, can only be baseless, according to the inconsistencies of the quran.

And this fear is deeply implanted, since childhood days, when "jinns" were/are live creatures and they are just waiting for you, behind every dark corner...
I can remember this fear, although no muslim, but at that point its the same.


And I thought there were monsters under my bed at night.  Then I started thinking about it, and I asked myself why is it that there are no monsters, and I am not afraid when the light is on, but they suddenly appear and make me afraid the instant the light switch is turned off?  I coupled that with my trust in my own ability to observe and think, and that is when the fear went away.  Literally, with that thought, the fear of monsters under by bed disappeared.

I had two things going for me.  I could think, and I trusted my ability to come to correct conclusions.  Not infallable, but verifiable.

Quote:
What can we possibly do, to get people out of this dungeon where the torture never stops !
Its threatening real life as well as the hereafter, endlessly, it seems, according to this brainwashing !


In my opinion, shedding the fear comes after one develops self-esteem.  Self-esteem includes, but is not limited to, the ability to think rationally for yourself, and having confidence that what you think has merit.  There are a lot of ways to build self-esteem, but whatever technique is used, it must include rational thinking.

Once a person learns to have confidence in his own ability to analyze data and think for himself, it is not that large a leap to come to the conclusion that the whole god/heaven/hell thing is a load of crap.  Now, the emotions that go with that are another thing.  To overcome them, one has to learn to reprogram them through the conscious mind, and that takes some practice.

For me, the conclusions began to dawn on me when when I realized that God and Santa Clause had certain things in common -- omnipresent, all knowing if you are "naughty or nice," etc. -- and that Santa was a fantasy. With that small thought, I started questioning the reality of God as well.  Since I could see no verifiable evidence for God, and since I at least I had figured out that my parents we the real Santa, and if Santa was a fantasy, then God must be a really crazy fantasy.  At least there was hard evidence that my parents existed, but I could not say the same for God.

I know that very few will agree with me, but that is the way it worked for me.  I think I was about 8 years old, or so.

Anyway, the path out of the fear must include a personal identity based on self-esteem and confidence in one's own thinking ability.  That takes practice, and starts with small things that build on one another to establish the confidence, for example performing an activity that you did not think you could do especially if you had to overcome some kind of fear in the process.  Day by day, bit by bit, you build your own sense of self worth.

Looking forward to your thoughts.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

I’ve raised the God and Santa comparison numerous times on various forums. I only thought of it within the last few years, so you’ve had quite a head start on me there! Very Happy
kafir forever

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I’ve raised the God and Santa comparison numerous times on various forums. I only thought of it within the last few years, so you’ve had quite a head start on me there! Very Happy


It worked for me!!  Laughing

Some people do not think so clearly, though.  Sad

Part of my point is that if an 8 year old can figure it out, why can't an adult?  Confused

Oops, maybe it is because the 8 year old suffers from (DK)^2 syndrome.

You know, you Don't Know what you Don't Know?  Rolling Eyes

It leaves your mind open to other alternatives.
brainout

HomoErectus wrote:
Dear kf

The question is, HOW to tell the muslims that this fear is baseless, can only be baseless, according to the inconsistencies of the quran.

And this fear is deeply implanted, since childhood days, when "jinns" were/are live creatures and they are just waiting for you, behind every dark corner...
I can remember this fear, although no muslim, but at that point its the same.

What can we possibly do, to get people out of this dungeon where the torture never stops !
Its threatening real life as well as the hereafter, endlessly, it seems, according to this brainwashing !


HomoE, your quote applies equally well to christians.  And here's what I determined early on in life to counter it:  
  • God is not people.  
  • Whoever God is, IF God is, no one invented Him.  
  • He instead, invented the RULES and the MEANS for everything else to freely exist.  
  • However, among humans who freely exist there is a need for control,
  • so whatever this "God" may have actually said or written to communicate Himself,
  • the humans GARBLED UP in order to assert control.  
  • So I just look up at the ceiling and say, "God, if you exist, WHO ARE YOU?"* and
  • "If you wrote some holy book, which one?" And
  • when reading that holy book, "What does this verse really mean?"  Because
  • God is not people so what people say, is to be respected and heard, pondered;  
  • But the real answer, must come from God.
 Notice how one is so busy asking toward and talking to God (again, presuming God exists) that fear has no or little chance to enter into one's thoughts.

Broken away from the group, Thinking Vertically:  that's the key to this thing.  And leave the sideways-thinking hell-mongers to stamp their feet and shake their fists in the hell of religion that is surely of their own free making.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Actually, I was 13 years old then and I asked the ceiling, "Which God ARE you?"
HomoErectus

brainout wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
Dear kf

The question is, HOW to tell the muslims that this fear is baseless, can only be baseless, according to the inconsistencies of the quran.

And this fear is deeply implanted, since childhood days, when "jinns" were/are live creatures and they are just waiting for you, behind every dark corner...
I can remember this fear, although no muslim, but at that point its the same.

What can we possibly do, to get people out of this dungeon where the torture never stops !
Its threatening real life as well as the hereafter, endlessly, it seems, according to this brainwashing !


HomoE, your quote applies equally well to christians.  And here's what I determined early on in life to counter it:  
  • God is not people.  
  • Whoever God is, IF God is, no one invented Him.  
  • He instead, invented the RULES and the MEANS for everything else to freely exist.  
  • However, among humans who freely exist there is a need for control,
  • so whatever this "God" may have actually said or written to communicate Himself,
  • the humans GARBLED UP in order to assert control.  
  • So I just look up at the ceiling and say, "God, if you exist, WHO ARE YOU?"* and
  • "If you wrote some holy book, which one?" And
  • when reading that holy book, "What does this verse really mean?"  Because
  • God is not people so what people say, is to be respected and heard, pondered;  
  • But the real answer, must come from God.
 Notice how one is so busy asking toward and talking to God (again, presuming God exists) that fear has no or little chance to enter into one's thoughts.

Broken away from the group, Thinking Vertically:  that's the key to this thing.  And leave the sideways-thinking hell-mongers to stamp their feet and shake their fists in the hell of religion that is surely of their own free making.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Actually, I was 13 years old then and I asked the ceiling, "Which God ARE you?"



Funny, that you said this last sentence...
I was around the same age that I walked out of a church, thinking "its all a hoax, there is no 'god' in this spectacle..."

Yes, sure we all know these fears, they have been implanted into christians too, all for the same reasons - control !

The threat/reward system - hell/heaven - is the base for it all, even in hinduism we see the same - you behave, you will advance, if you don't behave, you will be reborn as a mosquito or such...

It was the same for me, it took me quite a while to convince myself [not rationally only] that these threats are NOTHING at all !

I rather live with the uncertainty, or also with the certainty, that when I die I'm dead and gone and nothing of me [what makes my personality, my mind] remains any longer - H.E. has left the building, to not return !

It is our most basic hope, to survive, at least in some form of existence, which makes us adopt the heaven/hell concept...

I'm not totally free of this, I think that nobody is really free of this fear, but I've come quite far, the necessity to accept it lies in our inevitable destination - death - so I finally have made it to look at it through the lens of curiosity - death will be my last [?] adventure !
GeneZ

Just found this the other day.  Watching this video (will take about 45 minutes)  will answer more questions than we can think to ask here.....

It was based upon a true story.  

                   
              http://tinyurl.com/2d76u9


                                                                                 GeneZ

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