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cosmicdancer

God's Literal Words?

I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile
ibnishaq

yes.

first off, go to quran search..
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapte...apter=1&translator=7&mac=

then, search the number of times "month" in singular form is used. it is used 12 times exactly.

then, search "dayS" plural and dual. it is used 30 times exactly.

then, search "day." if you exclude idhin it is used 365 times.

i am sorry, but i dont know how someone can just put that in a book and not get caught. plus it would be hard to do such in arabic in the first place.

now according to hadith the arab world said "if muhammad conquers the quranish then he is prophet." when muhammad conquered them, people covnerted to islam in drones which is why surah 110 was revealed. certainly, someone did not just make this up. for had they done so, the arab tribes would have yelled "kaththabun!" (liar i think)

i am bisexual and do not want to be muslim in all honesty. but i have not found anything that makes islam NOT gods words.
cosmicdancer

None of this makes me believ Ibn Ishaq (btw I am Omar Ahmad on FFI - though I don't post there any more)

But I have a Mu'jam mufahras li Alfaz al Qur'an in my hand so I can count all the words right now for you.

ibnishaq wrote:
search the number of times "month" in singular form is used. it is used 12 times exactly


Yes I make that 12 times.

ibnishaq wrote:
then, search "dayS" plural and dual. it is used 30 times exactly.


I make it 27 times.

ibnishaq wrote:
then, search "day." if you exclude idhin it is used 365 times.


I make it 364 (that was a pain - so I hope you appreciate the time I spent doing this for you)

Smile
Tvebak

Re: God's Literal Words?

cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


Hi CD

How about meteorites/"shooting flames"/"shooting stars" chasing jinns?

Cheers and peace
cosmicdancer

Re: God's Literal Words?

Tvebak wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


Hi CD

How about meteorites/"shooting flames"/"shooting stars" chasing jinns?

Cheers and peace


Hi Tvebak,

Why should any of the above make me believe the Qur'an is the word of God?
Tvebak

Re: God's Literal Words?

cosmicdancer wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


Hi CD

How about meteorites/"shooting flames"/"shooting stars" chasing jinns?

Cheers and peace


Hi Tvebak,

Why should any of the above make me believe the Qur'an is the word of God?


Hi CD

It was ironic. It should rather make you believe it is not the word of "god". But sorry if I confuse the topic.

Cheers and peace.
ibnishaq

cosmicdancer wrote:
None of this makes me believ Ibn Ishaq (btw I am Omar Ahmad on FFI - though I don't post there any more)

But I have a Mu'jam mufahras li Alfaz al Qur'an in my hand so I can count all the words right now for you.

ibnishaq wrote:
search the number of times "month" in singular form is used. it is used 12 times exactly


Yes I make that 12 times.

ibnishaq wrote:
then, search "dayS" plural and dual. it is used 30 times exactly.


I make it 27 times.

ibnishaq wrote:
then, search "day." if you exclude idhin it is used 365 times.


I make it 364 (that was a pain - so I hope you appreciate the time I spent doing this for you)

Smile

wow you are such a great person! thank you for taking all that time to do such!

for the days 27- yes it is 27 but then add to 3 duals and it makes 30(if duals should even be included.)

you are arabic speaker majored in arabic in university right? so can i ask..
would it be hard for someone to make such up in arabic? and was it normal for arab poets to do such?

i suppose if it was the norm then it would not be a miracle at all.

also, i get day 365 times.

38 Alyawma 2:249 5:3 5:3 5:5 6:93 8:48 11:43 12:54 12:92 16:27 16:63 17:14 19:26 19:38 20:64 20:126 23:65 23:111 25:14 29:36 36:55 36:59 36:64 36:65 37:26 40:16 40:17 40:17 40:29 43:39 43:68 45:28 45:34 50:22 57:12 66:7 68:24 69:35
1 Alyawmi 76:11
2 Alyawmu 70:44 78:39
2 biAlyawmi 4:38 9:29
5 biyawmi 40:27 70:26 74:46 75:1 83:11
8 faAlyawma 7:51 10:92 34:42 36:54 45:35 46:20 57:15 83:34
4 liyawmi 21:47 38:53 64:9 77:13
4 liyawmiN 3:9 3:25 14:42 83:5
2 waAlyawma 33:21 60:6
21 waAlyawmi 2:62 2:126 2:177 2:228 2:232 2:264 3:114 4:39 4:59 4:136 4:162 5:69 9:18 9:19 9:44 9:45 9:99 24:2 58:22 65:2 85:2
1 wabiAlyawmi 2:8
44 wayawma 2:85 4:159 6:22 6:73 6:128 7:163 9:25 10:28 10:45 11:60 11:99 16:80 16:84 16:89 18:47 18:52 19:15 19:15 19:33 19:33 24:64 25:17 25:25 25:27 27:83 27:87 28:41 28:42 28:62 28:65 28:74 30:12 30:14 30:55 34:40 35:14 39:60 40:46 40:51 41:19 41:47 45:27 46:20 46:34
2 yawmAaN 2:48 2:123
133 yawma 2:113 2:174 2:212 3:30 3:77 3:106 3:155 3:161 3:166 3:180 3:185 3:194 4:109 4:141 5:109 6:73 6:141 6:158 7:32 7:53 7:163 7:172 8:41 8:41 9:3 9:35 9:36 10:60 10:93 11:8 11:98 11:105 14:41 14:44 14:48 16:25 16:27 16:80 16:92 16:111 16:124 17:13 17:52 17:71 17:97 18:105 19:15 19:33 19:38 19:39 19:85 19:95 20:100 20:101 20:102 20:124 21:104 22:2 22:9 22:17 22:69 23:16 24:24 25:22 25:69 26:82 26:87 26:88 28:61 29:13 29:25 29:55 32:25 32:29 33:44 33:66 38:26 39:15 39:24 39:31 39:47 39:67 40:15 40:16 40:18 40:32 40:33 40:52 41:40 42:7 42:45 44:10 44:16 44:40 44:41 45:17 46:35 50:30 50:41 50:42 50:44 51:13 52:9 52:13 52:46 54:6 54:48 56:56 57:12 57:13 58:6 58:7 58:18 60:3 64:9 66:8 68:42 70:8 70:43 73:14 78:17 78:18 78:38 78:40 79:6 79:35 79:46 80:34 82:15 82:19 83:6 86:9 101:4
14 yawmaNA 2:259 2:281 18:19 20:104 22:47 23:113 24:37 25:26 31:33 40:49 73:17 76:7 76:10 76:27
3 yawmayni 2:203 41:9 41:12
31 yawmi 1:4 3:55 4:87 5:14 5:36 5:64 6:12 7:14 7:167 9:77 15:35 15:36 15:38 17:58 17:62 23:100 26:189 28:71 28:72 30:56 37:144 38:16 38:78 38:79 38:81 40:30 45:26 46:5 54:19 62:9 68:39
28 yawmiN 2:259 6:15 7:59 9:108 10:15 11:3 11:26 11:84 14:18 18:19 19:37 22:55 23:113 26:38 26:135 26:155 26:156 26:189 32:5 34:30 39:13 43:65 46:21 55:29 56:50 70:4 77:12 90:14
16 yawmu 5:119 20:59 30:56 37:20 37:21 50:20 50:34 50:42 51:12 64:9 75:6 77:14 77:35 77:38 82:17 82:18
9 yawmuN 2:254 11:77 11:103 11:103 14:31 30:43 42:47 54:8 74:9
= 365! maybe i accidently added one!
cosmicdancer

ibnishaq wrote:
wow you are such a great person! thank you for taking all that time to do such!

for the days 27- yes it is 27 but then add to 3 duals and it makes 30(if duals should even be included.)


I see absolutely no acceptable reason why duals should be accepted

ibnishaq wrote:
you are arabic speaker majored in arabic in university right? so can i ask..
would it be hard for someone to make such up in arabic? and was it normal for arab poets to do such?


The only literature before the Qur'an was poetry - and I never heard of such a thing. The obsession with numerical 'miracles' Rolling Eyes has only occured in the modern day and age - it is unheard of throughout Islamic history.

ibnishaq wrote:


also, i get day 365 times.


OK, well I will check my count again - when I get time.

But, you know Ibn Ishaq - it really means nothing. As one British politician once said, "There are Lies, then there are Damn lies, then there are statistics!"

Wink
ibnishaq

Quote:
The only literature before the Qur'an was poetry - and I never heard of such a thing. The obsession with numerical 'miracles' Rolling Eyes has only occured in the modern day and age - it is unheard of throughout Islamic history.


so i guess it would be unlikely that someone just put it in there?

could it be coincidence? i mean what are the chances? lol
cosmicdancer

ibnishaq wrote:
Quote:
The only literature before the Qur'an was poetry - and I never heard of such a thing. The obsession with numerical 'miracles' Rolling Eyes has only occured in the modern day and age - it is unheard of throughout Islamic history.


so i guess it would be unlikely that someone just put it in there?

could it be coincidence? i mean what are the chances? lol


Coincidence seems the most likely answer Ibn Ishaq. Also I could look for 100 words that I want to add up to something significant - yet I only find 8 or 9.

If I tell people these 8 or 9 are miracles - that doesn't tell them that 90+ did not add up to anything.

I would definitely say coincidence (and as I say some are simply wrong as they depend on duals etc.. - I mean who says?)

But more important than all of this my brother - is the MEANING.

Do you believe the meaning - the words - the rules - that God will burn unbelievers in Hell - that God said you can hit your wife - that Gays should be killed etc etc...

If you believe all that - then you should remain a Muslim - and good luck to you my friend - I certainly have nothing against Muslims - much of my family are devout Muslims and I love them all.

But if you don't believe it - then stop playing games with yourself.

I think you know deep down what you believe and what you don't. You just want someone to say it for you. Well sorry my friend - you gotta make your own decision.

Peace & Blessings,

CD Smile
ibnishaq

well maybe it is just coincidence.. but i mean it is funny that qu'ran has that and no other book that i know of. that is really all. i mean i just do not know why it is in there and how it got there just coincidentally. i mean if it was just "month 2" then maybe that would be ok. but to have days 30(when you add the duals) and day 365 it then becomes an interesting situation.

granted, islamic year is 354. and you have to exclude the idhin and those(should they be excluded?)

i am sorry if i sound silly. i am in a situation right now about my faith and have been for over a year and 5 months. it is just the worse thing. i am bisexual and i do NOT like that islam is homophobic. and i think women are just as good as men and do NOT think it is ok to beat wives. and i think evolution is a clear belief with a lot of evidence behind it. and i do not really believe that jews turned into apes. and i do not believe that the reason we are prohibited to eat pork is because jews were turned into pigs as shabir ally(the big islamic scholar in north america.. the billal phillips of america) says.

but then there are these little quirks like this numbers situation that makes me question.

so i am just in a dilemma and i know i sound silly many times. i think many people get that way when we have been worried day and night about our faith for a year and just want to find the answer and not be so confused!

i dont like eternal hell belief. that is horrible. certainly allah is not that bad. so i dont know!
[/end rant mode!]
cosmicdancer

ibnishaq wrote:
it is funny that qu'ran has that and no other book that i know of.


Have you actually checked that no other books have any amazing numerical 'miracles'?

ibnishaq wrote:
that is really all. i mean i just do not know why it is in there and how it got there just coincidentally. i mean if it was just "month 2" then maybe that would be ok. but to have days 30(when you add the duals) and day 365 it then becomes an interesting situation.


If you feel convinced by that Ibn Ishaq then I reccomend you remain a Muslim.

I will still remain your good friend Smile

ibnishaq wrote:
i am sorry if i sound silly.


You don't sound silly to me my brother - we all have our own way of percieving the world around us. Smile

ibnishaq wrote:
i am in a situation right now about my faith and have been for over a year and 5 months. it is just the worse thing. i am bisexual and i do NOT like that islam is homophobic.


There are Muslim groups that are campaigning for Gay rights within Islam - have you thought about joining them?

Personally I feel it it is a crying shame that anyone should feel stigmatised because of their sexuality - and feel that there is something 'wrong' with them or that they need to be 'fixed' in some way. But there are some Gay Muslims who are challenging this perception - and I say 'good for them' and I wish them all the best.

ibnishaq wrote:
i think women are just as good as men and do NOT think it is ok to beat wives. and i think evolution is a clear belief with a lot of evidence behind it. and i do not really believe that jews turned into apes. and i do not believe that the reason we are prohibited to eat pork is because jews were turned into pigs as shabir ally(the big islamic scholar in north america.. the billal phillips of america) says.


OK, then perhaps you need to think about the consiquence of that.

ibnishaq wrote:
but then there are these little quirks like this numbers situation that makes me question.
You are really hung up on that aren't you Ibn Ishaq.

No problem - if they convince you that Islam is true then go for it - I am not here to tell you what to do or what to believe my friend. Smile

ibnishaq wrote:
so i am just in a dilemma and i know i sound silly


Stop saying you sound silly - you DO NOT SOUND SILLY - OK? There are many people - perhaps millions - going through the SAME dilemma as you are.

ibnishaq wrote:
many times. i think many people get that way when we have been worried day and night about our faith for a year and just want to find the answer and not be so confused!


If there is a God then that is what we are here for - to struggle with these questions.

Personally I don't believe there are any right or wrong answers - the struggle is the only thing that is necessary Smile

ibnishaq wrote:
i dont like eternal hell belief. that is horrible.


Who does, my friend?

ibnishaq wrote:
certainly allah is not that bad


No, I don't think he is either.

Smile
ibnishaq

Quote:
If you feel convinced by that Ibn Ishaq then I reccomend you remain a Muslim.

I will still remain your good friend Smile

aww thanks!

well i do not know if i am convinced by them or not which is what i am trying to figure out. i mean duals=2 and the root is a bit different then plural days. days dual is more similar to singular then plural form. so i dont understand why that would be included. so maybe it IS coincidence i do not know.

then with day you have to exclude all idhin and endings like that. that makes no sense to exclude parts and keep others. plus it would equal 365 and not 354 which poses a problem.

with month you have exactly 12 true and it was not normal for people to add numbers so it was not made up. but then when i search ( الشهر) which i think it word for month i get 10 so i just do not know.

i am just writing down my thoughts!
cosmicdancer

ibnishaq wrote:
Quote:
If you feel convinced by that Ibn Ishaq then I reccomend you remain a Muslim.

I will still remain your good friend Smile

aww thanks!

well i do not know if i am convinced by them or not which is what i am trying to figure out. i mean duals=2 and the root is a bit different then plural days. days dual is more similar to singular then plural form. so i dont understand why that would be included. so maybe it IS coincidence i do not know.

then with day you have to exclude all idhin and endings like that. that makes no sense to exclude parts and keep others. plus it would equal 365 and not 354 which poses a problem.

with month you have exactly 12 true and it was not normal for people to add numbers so it was not made up. but then when i search ( الشهر) which i think it word for month i get 10 so i just do not know.

i am just writing down my thoughts!


The problem with these 'miracles' IbnIshaq is that how did the person who discovered it decide that he should look up the words he did?

Was he 'directed' by God to the words that are miracles?

I suspect he looked up many words that amounted to no miraculous number - but we don't hear about those, do we?

It just seems so abitrary and random.

And if Islam is true and unbelievers will burn in Hell if they reject it - then surely God would have been a little less ambigious about his clues.

After all - our eternal salvation depends on it Wink

LOL
Raza

The Noble Quran starts off with:

"This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;"
Quran 2:1

You don't fear Allah(Subhanahu wa ta'ala), you have doubts in Him, therefore, if thousands of Islamic scholars came to you with all the evidence in the world, it would not be enough for you.
cosmicdancer

Raza wrote:
The Noble Quran starts off with:

"This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;"
Quran 2:1

You don't fear Allah(Subhanahu wa ta'ala), you have doubts in Him, therefore, if thousands of Islamic scholars came to you with all the evidence in the world, it would not be enough for you.


And you have faith in Islam - so if all the evidence in the world contradicted it - you would still believe it.

Smile
BMZ

cosmicdancer wrote:
The only literature before the Qur'an was poetry - and I never heard of such a thing. The obsession with numerical 'miracles' Rolling Eyes has only occured in the modern day and age - it is unheard of throughout Islamic history.


Absolutely correct, CD and this has happened only in the last 30-35 years.
brainout

Maybe the question should be, What SHOULD constitute the "Word of God"?  What would it have to say, be, demonstrate, to prove itself from God?

Here's my answer, but it's tentative, the question is new in my mind.

1.  It should demonstrate Infinite Perfect Character of the God who claims to be the Author of it.
2.  It should demonstrate Infinite Perfect Genius of writing style, even if using humans.  Else you can't know that humans really aren't the origin of it.
3.  It should exhibit an Infinitely-superior 'answer' on every level to all questions.  Granted, it would take time to learn that answer, and even longer to vet as being Divinely superior.  The meanwhile, there would be doubts.
4.  The covenant offered, if any, should therefore be FREE, allowing for one to examine it and grow in knowledge, as we humans aren't going to 'get it' all at once.  So the society it advocates, if any, should likewise be free.
5.  Hence some FORGIVENESS mechanism would have to be involved.
6.  Man's errancy must be paid for, and man can't pay it.  Actually, this would be my first criterion, for it's not Holy if it's not Free, which means disobedience will occur, and how can creation live with God knowing nothing he does can compensate for past error?

What a Word of God would NOT contain:

a.  A claim that you can do works which buy you fellowship with God.  If that's the claim, then the book cannot be from God.  That would be man's hallucination.  Works might have some moral value, but never spiritual value.  For if God exists, He's Infinitely Perfect -- a character/nature, so works wouldn't do squat.
b.  A claim that society can in any way ostracise or penalize you for not believing in the covenant or raising critical questions about it.
c.  A claim that a person can be spiritual on his own.  That's flat nonsense.  If the god doesn't empower you, then you have no relationship and it's all hogwash.
d.  A claim that rituals or feely-stuff is required to 'be spiritual'.  That would be human manipulation, clearly.  If God is infinite, then it's an all KNOWING type of relationship, a BEINGNESS, not a feeling.  Feeling or rituals would be optional, maybe even helpful.  Teaching could involve rituals, surely:  we all know how kids need that, for example.  But never would ritual or feeling be determinative or mandated as "spiritual", themselves.  Magic is not relationship, it's addiction.  So no real God would invoke either rituals or feeling, as criteria for truth.

There, that's enough to convey the idea.
kafir forever

Re: God's Literal Words?

cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?
kafir forever

Raza wrote:
The Noble Quran starts off with:

"This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;"
Quran 2:1

You don't fear Allah(Subhanahu wa ta'ala), you have doubts in Him, therefore, if thousands of Islamic scholars came to you with all the evidence in the world, it would not be enough for you.


So why should anyone fear a figment of Mohammed's imagination (aka, Allah)?
ibnishaq

hi brainout!! on one of your reasons of why bible should be word of god you stated
Quote:
2.  It should demonstrate Infinite Perfect Genius of writing style, even if using humans.  Else you can't know that humans really aren't the origin of it.

Does the bible have a great writing style? also do you believe in gematria?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

The Qur’an contains clear passages that point to utterances by Muhammad himself, not God — most of those oaths (e.g. “By the enshrouding night!”).  The most revealing of these runs thusly: “By God!” Numerous Qur’anic commentators, in a flummox about how to explain such blatant pagan sentiments, ascribe these passages to Allah himself with Muhammad dutifully repeating every single thing he heard and thereby acting more like a secretary reading back her master’s dictations.

Other sections include treaties and documents of war (such as the start of Surah #9, known as ‘at–Tawba’, or ‘Repentance’) interpolated into revelations. This one makes for the most interesting because it appears as a separate sura but does not come prefaced with the Basmala (“bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim”). Again, commentators and exegetes, forced to supply a reason for such an obvious addition into the Revelatory texts, claim it exists as a part of Surah 8 and not a separate one.
cosmicdancer

Re: God's Literal Words?

kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?


What do you mean?
kafir forever

Re: God's Literal Words?

cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?


What do you mean?


I am just curious, CD.  I get the feeling, and it is a feeling only, that you are on some kind of quest -- looking for something.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

Are you looking for additional justification for your apostasy?  I don't think you need any, but I just sense that you are still looking for justification.

I think the Quran is obviously, on its face, a fabrication of Mohammed, and/or some of his followers.  It cannot possibly satisfy all of the claims for its perfection, etc.
cosmicdancer

Re: God's Literal Words?

kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?


What do you mean?


I am just curious, CD.  I get the feeling, and it is a feeling only, that you are on some kind of quest -- looking for something.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

Are you looking for additional justification for your apostasy?  I don't think you need any, but I just sense that you are still looking for justification.

I think the Quran is obviously, on its face, a fabrication of Mohammed, and/or some of his followers.  It cannot possibly satisfy all of the claims for its perfection, etc.


I would have thought it obvious that Islam leaves ex-Muslims with a lot of issues that take time to resolve.

That is precisely why we have ex-Muslim forums - to offer ex-Muslims (and Muslims) help, understanding, support and a place to work-through their thoughts and feelings.

Frankly I find it odd that you don't understand that - particularly as you spend so much time on ex-Muslim forums.
kafir forever

Re: God's Literal Words?

cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
I just can't see one shred of evidence that would make me believe this book is the word of God.

Can you?

Smile


No, so why are you so obsessed with it?


What do you mean?


I am just curious, CD.  I get the feeling, and it is a feeling only, that you are on some kind of quest -- looking for something.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

Are you looking for additional justification for your apostasy?  I don't think you need any, but I just sense that you are still looking for justification.

I think the Quran is obviously, on its face, a fabrication of Mohammed, and/or some of his followers.  It cannot possibly satisfy all of the claims for its perfection, etc.


I would have thought it obvious that Islam leaves ex-Muslims with a lot of issues that take time to resolve.

That is precisely why we have ex-Muslim forums - to offer ex-Muslims (and Muslims) help, understanding, support and a place to work-through their thoughts and feelings.

Frankly I find it odd that you don't understand that - particularly as you spend so much time on ex-Muslim forums.


Quit whining.  I understand it more than you know.  To be blunt, the problem of all ex-muslims is a lack of self-esteem which is inbred into you by the cult mentality and group identity that Islam forces onto you.  I started to explain that in another forum, which I directed you too, but which you have basically ignored.  YOU NEED YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY INDEPENDENT OF THE FUCKING GROUP.

Until you overcome the four fears that I articulated, you are lost.  Get a grip, man.  Step up to the plate and face those fears, and when you realize how absurd they are, you will be free.

Sorry, but it is time for tough love.  If you really want to get over this Isam crap, you need to stop whining and learn to think for yourself.
Tvebak

Re: God's Literal Words?

kafir forever wrote:

Quit whining.  I understand it more than you know.  To be blunt, the problem of all ex-muslims is a lack of self-esteem which is inbred into you by the cult mentality and group identity that Islam forces onto you.  I started to explain that in another forum, which I directed you too, but which you have basically ignored.  YOU NEED YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY INDEPENDENT OF THE FUCKING GROUP.

Until you overcome the four fears that I articulated, you are lost.  Get a grip, man.  Step up to the plate and face those fears, and when you realize how absurd they are, you will be free.

Sorry, but it is time for tough love.  If you really want to get over this Isam crap, you need to stop whining and learn to think for yourself.


I don't know wether you two has some kind of history, but it seems to me that there might be a kind of misunderstanding due to your little 'discussion' here. But anyways your, KF, thoughts about fears I think is correct, but I think that your 'actions' towards CD are to harsh and might be that you have misunderstood him. I don't know. But I don't think there's anything "whining" about realising that leaving a community/group/faith might have some personal implication, and that a forum to discuss such an issue is very much useful for some.

Cheers
kafir forever

Re: God's Literal Words?

Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:

Quit whining.  I understand it more than you know.  To be blunt, the problem of all ex-muslims is a lack of self-esteem which is inbred into you by the cult mentality and group identity that Islam forces onto you.  I started to explain that in another forum, which I directed you too, but which you have basically ignored.  YOU NEED YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY INDEPENDENT OF THE FUCKING GROUP.

Until you overcome the four fears that I articulated, you are lost.  Get a grip, man.  Step up to the plate and face those fears, and when you realize how absurd they are, you will be free.

Sorry, but it is time for tough love.  If you really want to get over this Isam crap, you need to stop whining and learn to think for yourself.


I don't know wether you two has some kind of history, but it seems to me that there might be a kind of misunderstanding due to your little 'discussion' here. But anyways your, KF, thoughts about fears I think is correct, but I think that your 'actions' towards CD are to harsh and might be that you have misunderstood him. I don't know. But I don't think there's anything "whining" about realising that leaving a community/group/faith might have some personal implication, and that a forum to discuss such an issue is very much useful for some.

Cheers


You are right, Tvebak, and I apologize to CD for my outburst.  I really do like CD.  He is a sane kind of guy.  My rant is not really directed at him, but is a result of my frustration with the whole ex-muslim thing.  Islam is evil, and one thing the adherents do is completely destroy the self-esteem of its followers.  That is an essential ingredient of that cult, and in my mind, is anti-human.

My frustration is, that is is so obvious that is what is happening, and that it was intentionally designed by a madman to promote his brand of thuggery.  And the solution is also obvious and simple.

1.  Recognize that the Islamic definition of Hell is a physical impossibility and violates basic common sense.  It CANNOT exist, and to fear it is absurd.  Once a person realizes how absurd the notion is, a couple of things happen.  The first is that the person begins to have confidence in his own ability to think rationally, a key ingrediant in building self-esteem which conquers fear #4, and the other is that if the concept of Islamic Hell is absurd, then so is the entire Quran.  The conjuring of a madman.  I do not see why ANYONE would have any trouble whatsoever walking away from that shit.

2. Continue to work on self-esteem building exercises.  If necessary, find some books on the subject, and learn to think for yourself, and have confidence in your ability to think and reason.  This takes practice, but as a person does it, the person builds confidence and that feeds on itself.  Soon, the person has his or her own identity and can defend it with certainty.  When that happens, it is easy to stand up to anyone who challenges your apostasy and tell them exactly why Islam is shit, and you can do it with pride.  Not as opinion, but as fact based on Islam's own literature, history and just plain old common sense.

As for the death sentence and abandoment of family, fears #2 and #3, they have to be dealt with specifically, but CD lives in the UK.  Just walk away from any Islamic enclave, move somewhere else, change your name if you have to, just get the hell out.

As for family, I would disown any family member of mine who held my apostasy against me.  I would tell them that they obviously loved their fucking religion more than they loved me, so they are no longer of any value to me.  That is harsh, and it is just me.  Some people cannot do that, so they will need to find another solution.

Anyway, if someone has to ask about the Quran, or any other religious work, being the literal word of God, they are not thinking.

As far as I am concerned, if you can't get over fear #1, you will never make it, and it is the easiest one to overcome.  So stop dwelling on it, and get over it.

Again, I apologize to CD for my rant, and if it is based on a misinterpretation, then I will be corrected.  However, I stand by what I have said about what needs to be done to escape this madness, and I get frustrated when people can't see the simplicity of it.

I guess this probably sounds like another rant, so I may have to apologize again, but it just seems so obvious.
cosmicdancer

Re: God's Literal Words?

kafir forever wrote:
Quit whining


Whining?

Perhaps you could point out where I have been whining?

I thought my posts here on this thread and elsewhere have made some good points and been supportive of other ex-Muslims (such as ibn Ishaq)

But if you consider them to be whining then I shall spare you.

If my posts are not wanted or appreciated then I shall leave (this forum and all other forums) and you can remain and offer your expert opinions on all the ex-Muslim forums you like.

May I say goodbye and best wishes - particularly to my good friend All Brains, Tvebak, He and others.

Smile
HomoErectus

Don't take it too hard, dear cd !

I guess KF was just a bit revved-up, in the "heat of the moment", maybe taking other anger out on you now... it happans, now and then...

and he apologized !

Just leave it at that, maybe...

Your input is always valuable and appreciated here, so please don't go running away !


to get a lil smile on yo face, did you see the pic of this canterbury-guy ? Very Happy

http://freefaith.myfreeforum.org/sutra3381.php&highlight=#3381

.
Tvebak

Re: God's Literal Words?

cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
Quit whining


Whining?

Perhaps you could point out where I have been whining?

I thought my posts here on this thread and elsewhere have made some good points and been supportive of other ex-Muslims (such as ibn Ishaq)

But if you consider them to be whining then I shall spare you.

If my posts are not wanted or appreciated then I shall leave (this forum and all other forums) and you can remain and offer your expert opinions on all the ex-Muslim forums you like.

May I say goodbye and best wishes - particularly to my good friend All Brains, Tvebak, He and others.

Smile


Your posts are very much wanted and appreciated. I would personally love if you would continue contributing to the forums, and aswell continue to enlighten us all on you blog. But of course it's your personal choice.

And Hassan he did apologize for his outburst Wink  you have to give him some credit for that  Smile  It can be hard reading facial expression when reading some scripture on a flat, dead screen...

Kafirforever wrote:
My frustration is, that is is so obvious that is what is happening, and that it was intentionally designed by a madman to promote his brand of thuggery.  And the solution is also obvious and simple.


I agree completely with you on this, when thinking about many believers, and many doubters. It's the same story about dreadful fear of hell which probably lurk back in the mind. People react to these things in different ways. My wife grew up in a "freechurch" here in Denmark getting taught about hell and punishment in early sundayschools. It's horrible. Such things sometimes just stick to people and they can't get completely rid of it. She is today a 100 % social constructivist, hence she thinks that "god" is a created terme, but anyways she does not like to talk about "devil", "Memnoch", "satan", "lucifer" or what other names there's for the delightful caracter of the "holy" scriptures. It's not just like "that" for many people. It's can be a huge accomplishment to clear off the thoughts.
To lighten the mood, and put it in perspective the miss and I have just been watching season 7 of American Idol. Some of these persons who try out to become the next idol have a profound belief that they are the greatest singers in the world, and when they stand there infront of the judges it becomes perfectly clear that they don't have a single tone in their voice. NADA! It's utterly horrible. And they can't fathom why the judges don't like them and why Simon Cowell says that they are "scary" and it was "horrible", "the worst experience in my life" or "I can never listen to that song again". After being thrown out of the room they keep on ranting about their great talent and keep telling "america" that they will get to the top, no doubt that! That they can sing, and is one of the best singers in the world. The delusion is vast! It was not to make a comparison to religious people as such, even so some might go in the same category, but it is an example of how a belief can shield of every reasonable talk and there also some "fear" having a role here. The "fear" of not being able to sing. For some of these people it seems to have been one of the only things they have clinged to in their life. It's actually quite sad in some cases.

Well that was a rant about nothing, I might say "ooops I did again". Well my point was, KF, that it's most likely not as easy as it sounds for many people. And furthermore people tackle it in different ways. But concerning CD I have a feeling that he have tackled it, and in his one way.

All the best and peace to both of you  Wink
All_Brains

Hello CD

KF is really a good person and he expresses his point of views from "never was Muslim" angle. a lot of people don't understand what's the big deal about leaving Islam and I have to agree that "some" of the hardship inflected are self-imposed!

Let me make this very clear CD, you're a good man who's pretty much liked by people from all the walks of life.

I know that you're a person who doesn't like conflicts so much, but I am afraid life is full of them. CD, you are now finding more and more about who you really are, what you believe in and what you want out of life. Going away from conflicts don't make conflicts go away. You need to alter the behaviour and win few life battles to build your self esteem again!

You have no idea how important your contribution here and I am so honoured and happy every time I log on and see one of your kind spirited posts that are capable of dissolving any theological differences!

CD...You represent humanity, kindness, art and genuine emotions in this forum and without you, there will be a big black hole of harsh rationality and stiff logic.

We love you man and we're truly your friends.

p.s: I believe that KF also apologised for the outburst and that's honourable in anyone's book!
kafir forever

Re: God's Literal Words?

cosmicdancer wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
Quit whining


Whining?

Perhaps you could point out where I have been whining?

I thought my posts here on this thread and elsewhere have made some good points and been supportive of other ex-Muslims (such as ibn Ishaq)

But if you consider them to be whining then I shall spare you.

If my posts are not wanted or appreciated then I shall leave (this forum and all other forums) and you can remain and offer your expert opinions on all the ex-Muslim forums you like.

May I say goodbye and best wishes - particularly to my good friend All Brains, Tvebak, He and others.

Smile


It this is all it takes to drive you away, then you have no self-esteem, and you confirm my assertions.  Get a backbone, man, and stand up for and defend your beliefs, whatever they might be, but do so with reason and conviction.

Whining may be the wrong observation.  Maybe, "Woa is me, I am the victim" might be more appropriate.

It is time for some tough love, dude.  Get a backbone and show it.

I am calling you out.  Stand up to me with conviction, pride and a rational argument, and tell me why you think the Islamic concept of Hell makes sense and justifies fear of it, or tell me why you think it is absurd.  If the former, you are not an apostate.  If the latter, you are on you way to freedom from this evil cult.  If you cannot do the latter, then you are not an apostate, and probably never will me.

BTW:  CD, It is only because I truly like you that I do this.

Come on, man, have it out with me.
cosmicdancer

Get some backbone? Thanks yet again for more insults. Perhaps you think this is the Wild West or the OK Corral and that calling me "Yeller" is going to make me draw my pistol. But I really have no time for this childishness.

I don't understand you KF - and you certainly don't understand me (though you think you do).

Tevbak asked if there was some sort of 'history' between us - well there is none that I am aware of. It simply appears that my posts irritate you - though I can't for the life of me see why?

But that's your problem - not mine - and I have better things to do than waste my time on a pointless argument where we simply shout past each other.

Again, my best wishes to you all (thanks for your kind words AB - I will be keeping up my Blog - hope to see you around.)

Hassan.

btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.
BMZ

Re: God's Literal Words?

kafir forever wrote:
 It this is all it takes to drive you away, then you have no self-esteem, and you confirm my assertions.  Get a backbone, man, and stand up for and defend your beliefs, whatever they might be, but do so with reason and conviction.

Whining may be the wrong observation.  Maybe, "Woa is me, I am the victim" might be more appropriate.

It is time for some tough love, dude.  Get a backbone and show it.

I am calling you out.  Stand up to me with conviction, pride and a rational argument, and tell me why you think the Islamic concept of Hell makes sense and justifies fear of it, or tell me why you think it is absurd.  If the former, you are not an apostate.  If the latter, you are on you way to freedom from this evil cult.  If you cannot do the latter, then you are not an apostate, and probably never will me.

BTW:  CD, It is only because I truly like you that I do this.

Come on, man, have it out with me.


CD is a very kind and noble person and I have never seen him involved in harsh and vulgur exchanges. You have never been an apostate, so you will not be able to understand what goes in his mind.

For a true ex-Muslim, it is very hard to throw all feelings for Islam. CD is not like every other poster that you come across. That is something you ought to know. Moreover, you will never see any vulgarity coming from a genuine and bonafide ex-Muslim.

Just take a look at A_B. He doesn't do that. And that is why I am here. You have to learn to read a poster's mind and then write accordingly.

Could you write the same way to Ali Sina, if you stand up with any conviction? You just accept what he says blindly and you come after a person who is not used to polemics.

Cheers
BMZ
BMZ

cosmicdancer wrote:
btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.


Hello CD,

Quote:
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.


My hat off to you for saying that. I have mentioned about you on other sites, standing boldy to show what you are.

Many people who stand for saying something do not really stand openly to show the conviction they stand for. Ali Sina failed to do that and you did it publicly.

I would leave a site when I notice that most of the posters are presenting nothing but junk and stuff. And I would not leave a site just because of one person.

You need friends and I think you have many here. You should not go.

Salaams
BMZ
cosmicdancer

BMZ wrote:

You need friends and I think you have many here. You should not go.

Salaams


Salams BMZ - and thank you Smile
All_Brains

BMZ wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.


Hello CD,

Quote:
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.


My hat off to you for saying that. I have mentioned about you on other sites, standing boldy to show what you are.

Many people who stand for saying something do not really stand openly to show the conviction they stand for. Ali Sina failed to do that and you did it publicly.

I would leave a site when I notice that most of the posters are presenting nothing but junk and stuff. And I would not leave a site just because of one person.

You need friends and I think you have many here. You should not go.

Salaams
BMZ


You're a good man BMZ! If only all religious people are like ypu, this forum wouldn't even exist!

I am proud to have you in this forum.
All_Brains

cosmicdancer wrote:
Get some backbone? Thanks yet again for more insults. Perhaps you think this is the Wild West or the OK Corral and that calling me "Yeller" is going to make me draw my pistol. But I really have no time for this childishness.

I don't understand you KF - and you certainly don't understand me (though you think you do).

Tevbak asked if there was some sort of 'history' between us - well there is none that I am aware of. It simply appears that my posts irritate you - though I can't for the life of me see why?

But that's your problem - not mine - and I have better things to do than waste my time on a pointless argument where we simply shout past each other.

Again, my best wishes to you all (thanks for your kind words AB - I will be keeping up my Blog - hope to see you around.)

Hassan.

btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.


Just for the records, you're very courageous Hassan in my book!

KF does not understand that you still sympathise with some aspects of Islam and Muslim culture.

May be I should make it clear that the aim of this forum was never to eradicate Islam or any other faith for that matter. This forum is to encourage people to think, critique and question their thoughts and beliefs, so that they may be set free from ignorant and fearful indoctrination.
Tvebak

cosmicdancer wrote:


btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.


Another salute to you Hassan. I admire your "backbone" lol. No really I admire you. Has the demonstration had any impact on the media. I haven't found anything on the subject yet.

Peace
HomoErectus

cosmicdancer wrote:


I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.



GREAT !!!
Especially since we talked about Kambakhsh and Afghanistan lately !
That was a very courageous thing to do, especially when mentioning that you are an apostate...

Thumbs up !
cosmicdancer

Tvebak wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:


btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.


Another salute to you Hassan. I admire your "backbone" lol. No really I admire you. Has the demonstration had any impact on the media. I haven't found anything on the subject yet.

Peace


Nothing much in the media - sadly.

But here is a picture from Maryam Namazie's blog.

Can you spot me lol

http://bp1.blogger.com/_RrbavitTR.../7xU01H1xFBY/s1600-h/IMG_3566.jpg

Smile
cosmicdancer

http://www.iransecularsociety.com/IMG_3554.JPG

I'm the one holding the placard saying  'Criticising Islam is NOT a crime'

Smile
All_Brains

Yes, I can see you handsome devil! Laughing

Well done Hassan! I know understand why you want to do less talking "foruming" and more actioning!
kafir forever

All_Brains wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
Get some backbone? Thanks yet again for more insults. Perhaps you think this is the Wild West or the OK Corral and that calling me "Yeller" is going to make me draw my pistol. But I really have no time for this childishness.

I don't understand you KF - and you certainly don't understand me (though you think you do).

Tevbak asked if there was some sort of 'history' between us - well there is none that I am aware of. It simply appears that my posts irritate you - though I can't for the life of me see why?

But that's your problem - not mine - and I have better things to do than waste my time on a pointless argument where we simply shout past each other.

Again, my best wishes to you all (thanks for your kind words AB - I will be keeping up my Blog - hope to see you around.)

Hassan.

btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.


Just for the records, you're very courageous Hassan in my book!

KF does not understand that you still sympathise with some aspects of Islam and Muslim culture.


Of course, I understand that CD still "sympathizes with some aspects of Islam and Muslim culture."  That is precisely what I am challenging!!!  My contention is that until you recognize how evil and irrational that culture is, you cannot escape it.  Until you do, you will never be free from it.  I am tired of the kid gloves approach, and I am only trying to help CD recognize that.  I really like CD, and I am only trying to help.  What I am saying is, get a grip, man, and recognize how convoluted, evil and self destructive Islam really is.  If a poisonious snake were looking you in the eye, would you try to reconcile with it, or would you kill it.  I would do the latter.

Quote:
May be I should make it clear that the aim of this forum was never to eradicate Islam or any other faith for that matter. This forum is to encourage people to think, critique and question their thoughts and beliefs, so that they may be set free from ignorant and fearful indoctrination.


That is exactly what I am trying to do.  Islam is "ignorant and fearful indoctrination," and setting oneself free from it involves freeing oneself of the four fears I have already identified.

Convince me I am wrong.  A_B, CD?
All_Brains

Hello KF

I am going to put on my Muslim Egyptian hat for a minute and show you what we mean.

Before the age of 16 I was convinced that God exists and Islam is a beautiful reality.

I remember Ramadan where all people fasted for 30 days and got close to their God. I remember the charity works by many Muslims and the food provided to the poor people.

I remember a simple man wakes up in the morning to go to work so that he can feed his family and starts the day by saying
"Tawkaltu Ala Allah" - "I depend on Allah" with conviction and full belief.

I remember people standing side by side submitting to one God in harmony and purity.

The problem is many Muslims don't even have a clue with regards to the meaning of many quranic verses or hadith.

Many Muslims just strive to be good in life and never questioned their faith and they wouldn't even hurt a fly!!!

I am not targeting Islam is a wrong indoctrination, I am targeting the actual root cause.

Ignorance and fear in general, the victim being a Muslim and Christian a KKK member or homo-basher!

That's why when we debate Muslims we don't attack their identity as Muslims, we only ask them to question what they have always believed to be true and examine the facts.

The decision is ultimately theirs!

I must say I also understand your point of view, since you were never a Muslim.

May be we need both perspective and keep it real!

Regards KF.
BMZ

kafir forever wrote:
My contention is that until you recognize how evil and irrational that culture is, you cannot escape it.


I assume that you wanted to write 'religion' but but in a fit, wrote the word 'culture'. Is that a correct observation?

kafir forever wrote:
I really like CD, and I am only trying to help.


If you really like a person, you would never agitate and perturb the person. Instead you would try to be considerate and show you care.

kafir forever wrote:
If a poisonious snake were looking you in the eye, would you try to reconcile with it, or would you kill it.  I would do the latter.


You seem to be a very angry person. From your above remark, I conclude that you are an Indian from the Sub-Continent. Everybody kills the snakes there.  Laughing

Snakes do not plan and carry out premeditated attacks and killings. Had you known human and animal behaviour, you would have known that snakes do not attack anyone intentionally. They attack and defend themselves only when attacked and if anything comes in their way. All they do is to sting. Just let him sting your walking stick. There is no need to kill. Rolling Eyes

During structural inspections of wharf and jetty structures, I come across snakes. I leave them alone and they don't bother me. I don't kill them because they are poisonous snakes. Snakes certainly are poisonous. There is no need to kill a snake.

Thus you really don't have to kill Muslims. Let them live. Just walk away from them and don't cross paths with them. Break the chains of ignorance and fear which is the motto of A_B's website. Laughing

BMZ
Tvebak

cosmicdancer wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:


btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.


Another salute to you Hassan. I admire your "backbone" lol. No really I admire you. Has the demonstration had any impact on the media. I haven't found anything on the subject yet.

Peace


Nothing much in the media - sadly.

But here is a picture from Maryam Namazie's blog.

Can you spot me lol

http://bp1.blogger.com/_RrbavitTR.../7xU01H1xFBY/s1600-h/IMG_3566.jpg

Smile


LOL yes I spot you on both pictures, but it would have helped if you had had a can in your hand, a cap and a blouse with white and red stribes. Where's Waldo (or Wally)?

But to bad that there haven't been much writing about it.
BMZ

All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
cosmicdancer wrote:
btw KF - I went to the Demo outside the Afghan Embassy yesterday - I got photographed and interviewed and gave my name and said I was an ex-Muslim and wanted to protest against the idea that anyone should be criminalised for simply criticising Islam. You talk about backbone - you have no idea.


Hello CD,

Quote:
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.


My hat off to you for saying that. I have mentioned about you on other sites, standing boldy to show what you are.

Many people who stand for saying something do not really stand openly to show the conviction they stand for. Ali Sina failed to do that and you did it publicly.

I would leave a site when I notice that most of the posters are presenting nothing but junk and stuff. And I would not leave a site just because of one person.

You need friends and I think you have many here. You should not go.

Salaams
BMZ


You're a good man BMZ! If only all religious people are like you, this forum wouldn't even exist!

I am proud to have you in this forum.


Thank you, A_B.

BMZ
cosmicdancer

All_Brains wrote:

May be I should make it clear that the aim of this forum was never to eradicate Islam or any other faith for that matter. This forum is to encourage people to think, critique and question their thoughts and beliefs, so that they may be set free from ignorant and fearful indoctrination.


Perfect!

I am with you 100%

All_Brains wrote:
I remember Ramadan where all people fasted for 30 days and got close to their God. I remember the charity works by many Muslims and the food provided to the poor people.

I remember a simple man wakes up in the morning to go to work so that he can feed his family and starts the day by saying
"Tawkaltu Ala Allah" - "I depend on Allah" with conviction and full belief.

I remember people standing side by side submitting to one God in harmony and purity.

The problem is many Muslims don't even have a clue with regards to the meaning of many quranic verses or hadith.

Many Muslims just strive to be good in life and never questioned their faith and they wouldn't even hurt a fly!!!

I am not targeting Islam is a wrong indoctrination, I am targeting the actual root cause.

Ignorance and fear in general, the victim being a Muslim and Christian a KKK member or homo-basher!

That's why when we debate Muslims we don't attack their identity as Muslims, we only ask them to question what they have always believed to be true and examine the facts.

The decision is ultimately theirs!


Well put!

Smile

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