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All_Brains

Intellectual_Fighter vs. All_Brains

Hello I_F

Let's get to to know each other if you don't mind.

Tell me a little bit about yourself and in return you're free to ask me any question you may have about me.
Intellectual_fighter

Re: Intellectual_Fighter vs. All_Brains

All_Brains wrote:
Hello I_F

Let's get to to know each other if you don't mind.

Tell me a little bit about yourself and in return you're free to ask me any question you may have about me.


Hi, A_B,

greetings for giving me this chance.


Well, this is Intellectual_fighter,  University Graudate .

I like to depend on sheer logic with its relative term and thats what I apply all time.


What about you!



Regards........
All_Brains

I am a Psychologist, A linguist and many other things...I am an Ex-Muslim and a native Arabic speaker. I live in Australia and like yourself I too use logic.

Can you please tell me what have you studied? Are you a native Arabic speaker? Which country do you live in? And what is your "original" nationality?

I am off to bed now, so take your time.
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
I am a Psychologist, A linguist and many other things...I am an Ex-Muslim and a native Arabic speaker. I live in Australia and like yourself I too use logic.

Can you please tell me what have you studied? Are you a native Arabic speaker? Which country do you live in? And what is your "original" nationality?

I am off to bed now, so take your time.


Psychologyst, great, psychology used to be one of my fav subject. Glad to know you are psychologyst, I also have some ground on psychology. In fact one of my best friend is a psychologyst living in USA, earing a lot of money!

And, my subject was language and thats what I studied and may be a lifetime student of that. Cool

You could call me an Indian. Regarding, my Arabic knowledge,  allow me inform you that I aint any less than a natrive arabic speaker , may be I do hold more . Cool
You live in Australia, cool, hundreds of my friends are there. Are you one of them . Joking!
All_Brains

Now I_F...let's talk a little theology!

I take it you're Sunni? And you do believe in the Quran, hadith and Sunnah?
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Now I_F...let's talk a little theology!

I take it you're Sunni? And you do believe in the Quran, hadith and Sunnah?



Hellow A_B,

Thanks for asking that question.

I aint either a sunni or a shia , or anything else. I AM A MUSLIM. Cool


And, you know I do beleive in  The Glorious Quran and Authentic hadiths that are supported by other aithentic hadiths ..If any hadiths contradicts with another then the most logical one will be given priority!



Thanks.......
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Now I_F...let's talk a little theology!

I take it you're Sunni? And you do believe in the Quran, hadith and Sunnah?



Hellow A_B,

Thanks for asking that question.

I aint either a sunni or a shia , or anything else. I AM A MUSLIM. Cool


And, you know I do beleive in  The Glorious Quran and Authentic hadiths that are supported by other aithentic hadiths ..If any hadiths contradicts with another then the most logical one will be given priority!


Thanks.......


Great stuff....

Let's start then....

I am an apostate and according to the Islamic Sharia'h, hadith and Sunnah, I should be terminated.

What's your take on that?
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Now I_F...let's talk a little theology!

I take it you're Sunni? And you do believe in the Quran, hadith and Sunnah?



Hellow A_B,

Thanks for asking that question.

I aint either a sunni or a shia , or anything else. I AM A MUSLIM. Cool


And, you know I do beleive in  The Glorious Quran and Authentic hadiths that are supported by other aithentic hadiths ..If any hadiths contradicts with another then the most logical one will be given priority!


Thanks.......


Great stuff....

Let's start then....

I am an apostate and according to the Islamic Sharia'h, hadith and Sunnah, I should be terminated.

What's your take on that?


Cool, you are an apostate! I love to talk with the apostate.

Well, before answering that great question, I want to know a little bit more about you as you are an apostate.

1.WHat religion you have taken as your new faith!,,,?Plz.
2. WHy you have taken that religion/faith?

This is going to be a great one.


Regards,,,,,,
All_Brains

Quote:
[quote="Intellectual_fighter"]1.WHat religion you have taken as your new faith!,,,?Plz.


I left Islam at the age of 20 and I was agnostic for 14 years, until I became an Atheist 1 year ago.

Quote:
2. WHy you have taken that religion/faith?


I have not taken any, but you may need to know that I have studied comparative religions and theology, so I do know Christianity and Judaism very well.
Mutley

[quote="Intellectual_fighter"]
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Now I_F...let's talk a little theology!

I take it you're Sunni? And you do believe in the Quran, hadith and Sunnah?



Hellow A_B,

Thanks for asking that question.

I aint either a sunni or a shia , or anything else. I AM A MUSLIM. Cool


And, you know I do beleive in  The Glorious Quran and Authentic hadiths that are supported by other aithentic hadiths ..If any hadiths contradicts with another then the most logical one will be given priority!


Thanks.......


Great stuff....

Let's start then....

I am an apostate and according to the Islamic Sharia'h, hadith and Sunnah, I should be terminated.

What's your take on that?


Oh man.....I can see it coming from a mile away  Laughing  Poor guy.

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

Cool, you are an apostate! I love to talk with the apostate.


You won't for long Laughing  Laughing  

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

Well, before answering that great question, I want to know a little bit more about you as you are an apostate.

1.WHat religion you have taken as your new faith!,,,?Plz.
2. WHy you have taken that religion/faith?

This is going to be a great one.


Regards,,,,,,



Laughing  It's pretty funny that he has to establish what faith All Brains is. This is because he's not prepared to argue the validity of Islam in of itself, he's only prepared to argue it's validity in comparison to other religions. Muslims do this all of the time. My religion is right because yours is wrong. And they honestly can't see the logical flaw in it.  It's quite amazing.   Laughing No one has ever pointed this logical fallacy to them. And then, people have to endure their false confidence, It would be hysterical if it wasn't sad.
Intellectual_fighter

[quote="All_Brains"]
Quote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
1.WHat religion you have taken as your new faith!,,,?Plz.


I left Islam at the age of 20 and I was agnostic for 14 years, until I became an Atheist 1 year ago.

Quote:
2. WHy you have taken that religion/faith?


I have not taken any, but you may need to know that I have studied comparative religions and theology, so I do know Christianity and Judaism very well.



Hellow A_B,

YOu havent taken any religion , ok thats good enough...

Now. you know Judaism and Christianity very well, thats great too..

Why?..because..

I love Christianity, Judaism and also Hinduism... Very Happy


So, lets start........... Cool
Mutley

[quote="Intellectual_fighter"]
All_Brains wrote:
Quote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
1.WHat religion you have taken as your new faith!,,,?Plz.


I left Islam at the age of 20 and I was agnostic for 14 years, until I became an Atheist 1 year ago.

Quote:
2. WHy you have taken that religion/faith?


I have not taken any, but you may need to know that I have studied comparative religions and theology, so I do know Christianity and Judaism very well.



Hellow A_B,

YOu havent taken any religion , ok thats good enough...

Now. you know Judaism and Christianity very well, thats great too..

Why?..because..

I love Christianity, Judaism and also Hinduism... Very Happy


So, lets start........... Cool


He already asked you the first question. What is the matter with you? Oh boy, I can see that this debate is going to have a load of nonsense. I'm going to start another debate with you, rather than debate you here. Please join me. Thank you.
All_Brains

[quote="Mutley"]
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Quote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
1.WHat religion you have taken as your new faith!,,,?Plz.


I left Islam at the age of 20 and I was agnostic for 14 years, until I became an Atheist 1 year ago.

Quote:
2. WHy you have taken that religion/faith?


I have not taken any, but you may need to know that I have studied comparative religions and theology, so I do know Christianity and Judaism very well.



Hellow A_B,

YOu havent taken any religion , ok thats good enough...

Now. you know Judaism and Christianity very well, thats great too..

Why?..because..

I love Christianity, Judaism and also Hinduism... Very Happy


So, lets start........... Cool


He already asked you the first question. What is the matter with you? Oh boy, I can see that this debate is going to have a load of nonsense. I'm going to start another debate with you, rather than debate you here. Please join me. Thank you.


Thanks Mutley for the clarification.

Could I please ask to observe the etiquettes of one on one debate and don't post in this thread anymore.

I see you have started another one on one debate inviting I_F and I will leave up to him to decide whether he wants to engage in another one on one debate at the very same time.

Thank you!
All_Brains

Hi I_F

Could you please confirm whether you want to engage in another one on one debate with Mutley? If not, then I will delete his thread for now, so that we can focus on our initially started debate.

Also...I have already started and I asked you an opening question. Here it's again in case you missed it:

Quote:
I am an apostate and according to the Islamic Sharia'h, hadith and Sunnah, I should be terminated.

What's your take on that?
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Hi I_F

Could you please confirm whether you want to engage in another one on one debate with Mutley? If not, then I will delete his thread for now, so that we can focus on our initially started debate.

Also...I have already started and I asked you an opening question. Here it's again in case you missed it:

Quote:
I am an apostate and according to the Islamic Sharia'h, hadith and Sunnah, I should be terminated.

What's your take on that?



Hellow A_B,

Greetings,

I will reply Mutley as he seems to be a very interesting customer..


Anywayz, lets come to the line of fire.

You have said that accoridng to Islamic Sharia , an apostate should be terminated.
So, atfirst , plz clarify your self about Islmic Sharia. because here Islamic Sharia will get a lot of attention.

Islamic Sharia is based on the Glorious Quran, the authectic Hadiths. Therefore, what a Muslims should take is that which is atfirst  approved By the Noble Quran and then Hadiths.
Now, If any Hadith contradict with the Glorious Quran , then the Hadiths should not be taken as granted. So, it is the first point need to be noted.

Secod point, To get an proper idea about a perfect amendment, then what needs to done is that to asses and examine Hidiths on a same topic and come to a logical conclusion in coherence with the Glorious Quran.

And, this is Islamic Sharia.



Do you have the same opinion as me! Its the Muslim opinion..


We are on the line of having a fruitful debate...


Regards..
All_Brains

‏Hello IF

Your answer is not straight forward and suggests that your embarrassed to state the Shari'ah ruling of apostates.

Islam judges that the apostates should be killed. The below Hadith no: 2794 in Sahih Al-Bukhari shows beyond dount what Muhammad thought and indeed practiced with regards to apostasy.

Quote:
حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أيوب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عكرمة ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عليا ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏حرق قوما فبلغ ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏فقال ‏
‏لو كنت أنا لم أحرقهم لأن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لا تعذبوا بعذاب الله ولقتلتهم كما قال النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏من بدل دينه فاقتلوه


In light of the above fact that Islam judges apostates to be criminals of the highest order and their lives should be terminated, how do you explain such barbaric act and obvious insecurity of this evil doctrine?

Please be direct and don't try politicize the answer.
All_Brains

Any sign of life I_F?
All_Brains

Intellectual_Fighter has run away!

I am afraid this is the end of this uninitiated one on one debate.

How sad that people can believe in things that they can't discuss and defend.
Melody

All_Brains wrote:
‏The below Hadith no: 2794 in Sahih Al-Bukhari shows beyond dount what Muhammad thought and indeed practiced with regards to apostasy.

Quote:
حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أيوب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عكرمة ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عليا ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏حرق قوما فبلغ ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏فقال ‏
‏لو كنت أنا لم أحرقهم لأن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لا تعذبوا بعذاب الله ولقتلتهم كما قال النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏من بدل دينه فاقتلوه
Since "I_F" has vanished, I'd like to question or point to the above hadith or any hadith. How do WE know for certain that Bukhari & Co. knows that all the ahadith collected over a long period of time AFTER over 150 years of Muhammad's death must be TRUE by he-said/she-said dogmas. Must all Muslims/ex-Muslims believe blindly in all ahadith collected by Bukhari, Malik, Saleh, Tirmidhi, etc. to weigh in on Muhammad and Islam? Just a thought folks.
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_Fighter has run away!

I am afraid this is the end of this uninitiated one on one debate.

How sad that people can believe in things that they can't discuss and defend.



Hellow Dear All_Brains,

First of all, you are wrong,  and I am sorry for my long absense here in this forum but that never suggests that I have been vanished.

Before starting this particular debate, I did notify you of my some absense here for sometime.

Therefore. this is pity to think that I aint here..

Anywayz,,I_F is back,,,

Cool ...

DOnt worry,
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
‏Hello IF

Your answer is not straight forward and suggests that your embarrassed to state the Shari'ah ruling of apostates.

Islam judges that the apostates should be killed. The below Hadith no: 2794 in Sahih Al-Bukhari shows beyond dount what Muhammad thought and indeed practiced with regards to apostasy.

Quote:
حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أيوب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عكرمة ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عليا ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏حرق قوما فبلغ ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏فقال ‏
‏لو كنت أنا لم أحرقهم لأن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لا تعذبوا بعذاب الله ولقتلتهم كما قال النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏من بدل دينه فاقتلوه


In light of the above fact that Islam judges apostates to be criminals of the highest order and their lives should be terminated, how do you explain such barbaric act and obvious insecurity of this evil doctrine?

Please be direct and don't try politicize the answer.



Hellow A_B,

First of all, I didnt want to start this debate with a logical fallacy, but as a matter of seriousness you have started with that.

As this is a very important issue then, at first you have failed to provide the foundation of your claim that is a clear reference from the Glorious Quran..

Whenever, you want to establish anything you need to start from the base,,

Therefore, in your coming post, I hope that you will provide a base reference from The Glorious Quran..

Do wait for me..and be ready, Cool
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
‏Hello IF

Your answer is not straight forward and suggests that your embarrassed to state the Shari'ah ruling of apostates.

Islam judges that the apostates should be killed. The below Hadith no: 2794 in Sahih Al-Bukhari shows beyond dount what Muhammad thought and indeed practiced with regards to apostasy.

Quote:
حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أيوب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عكرمة ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عليا ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏حرق قوما فبلغ ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏فقال ‏
‏لو كنت أنا لم أحرقهم لأن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لا تعذبوا بعذاب الله ولقتلتهم كما قال النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏من بدل دينه فاقتلوه


In light of the above fact that Islam judges apostates to be criminals of the highest order and their lives should be terminated, how do you explain such barbaric act and obvious insecurity of this evil doctrine?

Please be direct and don't try politicize the answer.



Hellow A_B,

First of all, I didnt want to start this debate with a logical fallacy, but as a matter of seriousness you have started with that.

As this is a very important issue then, at first you have failed to provide the foundation of your claim that is a clear reference from the Glorious Quran..

Whenever, you want to establish anything you need to start from the base,,

Therefore, in your coming post, I hope that you will provide a base reference from The Glorious Quran..

Do wait for me..and be ready, Cool


Welcome back!

That's why I needed to establish are you a Quran only Muslim? Do you reject Hadith and Sunnah?

Please a simple answer, so that I can focus on what you believe.
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
‏Hello IF

Your answer is not straight forward and suggests that your embarrassed to state the Shari'ah ruling of apostates.

Islam judges that the apostates should be killed. The below Hadith no: 2794 in Sahih Al-Bukhari shows beyond dount what Muhammad thought and indeed practiced with regards to apostasy.

Quote:
حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أيوب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عكرمة ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عليا ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏حرق قوما فبلغ ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏فقال ‏
‏لو كنت أنا لم أحرقهم لأن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لا تعذبوا بعذاب الله ولقتلتهم كما قال النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏من بدل دينه فاقتلوه


In light of the above fact that Islam judges apostates to be criminals of the highest order and their lives should be terminated, how do you explain such barbaric act and obvious insecurity of this evil doctrine?

Please be direct and don't try politicize the answer.



Hellow A_B,

First of all, I didnt want to start this debate with a logical fallacy, but as a matter of seriousness you have started with that.

As this is a very important issue then, at first you have failed to provide the foundation of your claim that is a clear reference from the Glorious Quran..

Whenever, you want to establish anything you need to start from the base,,

Therefore, in your coming post, I hope that you will provide a base reference from The Glorious Quran..

Do wait for me..and be ready, Cool


Welcome back!

That's why I needed to establish are you a Quran only Muslim? Do you reject Hadith and Sunnah?

Please a simple answer, so that I can focus on what you believe.



Hi A_B, new year greetings ,

Now, let me clarify myself once again, I told you before also that I am a frim beiever of all Sahih Hadiths that are supported by other Sahih Hadiths of same context. That proves simply that I aint a Quran-only Muslim.

Secondly, when we talk about any important issue which can be termed as obligatory in Islamic law then we will atfirst look at the base of that. And the base of all Islamic obligations is the Glorious Quran.

It a very transparant way of advancing towards our intending  goal..

Therefore, when the topic is apostate then atfirst The Glorious Quran comes as first reference then comes the Ahadiths..this is called simple stepping...


What the Glorious Quran says about apostate:----Noble Verse 47.25

ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم



Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age)....

What you understand from this verse!..Its very clear, isnt it?. Cool





Islam is the untimate truth. none can deny it.



Thanks and cheers.
All_Brains

Hello I_F

We are now both online now, so let's get few burning issues addressed as this has been prolonging!

I am a little confused! You believe in the Sahihs, yet you deny the sahih Bukhari and Muslim hadiths that prescribe to death to apostates????
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Hello I_F

We are now both online now, so let's get few burning issues addressed as this has been prolonging!

I am a little confused! You believe in the Sahihs, yet you deny the sahih Bukhari and Muslim hadiths that prescribe to death to apostates????



Dear, I think that there have been misunderstanding.

As you know about Islam then you must know that the foundation of Islam is the Glorious Quran. When you know that then the foundation will come first then the others.

If I go for a paradigmatic explanation, then I will give you the example of a simple building.
If you want to build a sky-scrappers  then atfirst you have to have proper founation which will support that. If the Foundation is for 50 stories then you cant build 80 stories. SIMPLE.


So, whats the basis that comes first, then the secondary ones..


Limpid matter.




Cheers.
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Hello I_F

We are now both online now, so let's get few burning issues addressed as this has been prolonging!

I am a little confused! You believe in the Sahihs, yet you deny the sahih Bukhari and Muslim hadiths that prescribe to death to apostates????



Dear, I think that there have been misunderstanding.

As you know about Islam then you must know that the foundation of Islam is the Glorious Quran. When you know that then the foundation will come first then the others.

If I go for a paradifmatic explanation, then I will give you the example of a simple building.
If you want to build a sky-scrappers  then atfirst you have to have proper founation which will support that. If the Foundation is for 50 stories then you cant build 80 stories. SIMPLE.


So, whats the basis that comes first, then the secondary ones..


Limpid matter.


Cheers.


Sure, however the Quran did not complete all punishments and ceremonies prescribed to complete the image of Islam!!!

How do you know how to wash up before prayer? How do you know how many prayers you should pray a day???

The verse you quoted only describe the spiritual status of a Murtad and did not touch on the worldly punishment prescribed and practiced by Muhammad and his fellow Sahabah.

How do you explain the "Murtad and Khawarij" war shortly after the death of Muhammad???
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Hello I_F

We are now both online now, so let's get few burning issues addressed as this has been prolonging!

I am a little confused! You believe in the Sahihs, yet you deny the sahih Bukhari and Muslim hadiths that prescribe to death to apostates????



Dear, I think that there have been misunderstanding.

As you know about Islam then you must know that the foundation of Islam is the Glorious Quran. When you know that then the foundation will come first then the others.

If I go for a paradifmatic explanation, then I will give you the example of a simple building.
If you want to build a sky-scrappers  then atfirst you have to have proper founation which will support that. If the Foundation is for 50 stories then you cant build 80 stories. SIMPLE.


So, whats the basis that comes first, then the secondary ones..


Limpid matter.


Cheers.


Sure, however the Quran did not complete all punishments and ceremonies prescribed to complete the image of Islam!!!

How do you know how to wash up before prayer? How do you know how many prayers you should pray a day???

The verse you quoted only describe the spiritual status of a Murtad and did not touch on the worldly punishment prescribed and practiced by Muhammad and his fellow Sahabah.

How do you explain the "Murtad and Khawarij" war shortly after the death of Muhammad???


Well, the fact is the straight  line of explanation..

When an Islamic issue comes that have been scrutinized by others or by any Muslim, the simple line of explanation is that atfirst there have to be the reference from the Glorious Quran , then Ahadiths and the  significant matter is that the Ahadiths cant contradict with the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran rather it will explain elaborately the provided text in the GLorious Quran..

When we talk about prayer then the Ahadiths arent contradicting anything with the teaching of the Glorious Quran , rather just elaborating it.


Regarding apostasy , we will follow this simple line of explanation..

The Glorous Quran gets first priority..The sahih hadiths are immediate after that..





May Allah bless all...
All_Brains

And how did the Quranic verse you've provided contradicts the Hadiths?????

The Quran says pray and the hadith says five times....

The Quran says apostates are lured and misguided by Satan and the hadith said and therefore they should be killed...

Contradiction would have been if Quran says that apostates should be left to be judged by Allah and hadith says kill them!!!

Can you follow the above logic!
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
And how did the Quranic verse you've provided contradicts with the Hadiths....

The Quran says pray and the hadith says five times....

The Quran says apostates are lured and misguided by Satan and the hadith said and therefore they should be killed...

Contradiction would have been if Quran says that apostates should be left to be judged by Allah and hadith says kill them!!!

Can you follow the above logic!


First of all, Let me assure you that Islam is the only religion that avocates logic and reason. therefore as a Muslim , I love to be logical..

As I told you the Ahadiths elaborate the Quranic teaching complying the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran...

When the Glorous Quran says pray, then comes how to pray.. and when to pray. The Ahadits gives you that answer..


When The GLorious Quran speaks about Apostate, it says...

What the Glorious Quran says about apostate:----Noble Verse 47.25

ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم


Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age)....

what question comes to your mind !


Hopefully no!... Cool


quesions  like  who are actually apostate!?..Is there any catagory of that or not? could come in your mind..

But no question of punishment...read the verse once again...
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
And how did the Quranic verse you've provided contradicts with the Hadiths....

The Quran says pray and the hadith says five times....

The Quran says apostates are lured and misguided by Satan and the hadith said and therefore they should be killed...

Contradiction would have been if Quran says that apostates should be left to be judged by Allah and hadith says kill them!!!

Can you follow the above logic!


First of all, Let me assure you that Islam is the only religion that avocates logic and reason. therefore as a Muslim , I love to be logical..

As I told you the Ahadiths elaborate the Quranic teaching complying the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran...

When the Glorous Quran says pray, then comes how to pray.. and when to pray. The Ahadits gives you that answer..


When The GLorious Quran speaks about Apostate, it says...

What the Glorious Quran says about apostate:----Noble Verse 47.25

ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم


Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age)....

what question comes to your mind !


Hopefully no!... Cool


quesions  like  who are actually apostate!?..Is there any catagory of that or not? could come in your mind..

But no question of punishment...read the verse once again...


You use Al-Hilali translation which is a joke for a native Arabic linguist like myself.

Please have a look at all translations"



Quote:
25 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْهُدَى الشَّيْطَانُ سَوَّلَ لَهُمْ وَأَمْلَى لَهُم
ْ
Shakir 47:25 Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.

yusufali 47:25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.

Pickthal 47:25 Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein.

Al-Hilali 47:25 Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitân (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allâh) prolonged their term (age).


There is absolutely no reference to prolonging age here and the verb of "Umley Lahum" is still referring to Satan not Allah!!!
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
And how did the Quranic verse you've provided contradicts with the Hadiths....

The Quran says pray and the hadith says five times....

The Quran says apostates are lured and misguided by Satan and the hadith said and therefore they should be killed...

Contradiction would have been if Quran says that apostates should be left to be judged by Allah and hadith says kill them!!!

Can you follow the above logic!


First of all, Let me assure you that Islam is the only religion that avocates logic and reason. therefore as a Muslim , I love to be logical..

As I told you the Ahadiths elaborate the Quranic teaching complying the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran...

When the Glorous Quran says pray, then comes how to pray.. and when to pray. The Ahadits gives you that answer..


When The GLorious Quran speaks about Apostate, it says...

What the Glorious Quran says about apostate:----Noble Verse 47.25

ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم


Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age)....

what question comes to your mind !


Hopefully no!... Cool


quesions  like  who are actually apostate!?..Is there any catagory of that or not? could come in your mind..

But no question of punishment...read the verse once again...


You use Al-Hilali translation which is a joke for a native Arabic linguist like myself.

Please have a look at all translations"



Quote:
25 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْهُدَى الشَّيْطَانُ سَوَّلَ لَهُمْ وَأَمْلَى لَهُم
ْ
Shakir 47:25 Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.

yusufali 47:25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.

Pickthal 47:25 Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein.

Al-Hilali 47:25 Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitân (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allâh) prolonged their term (age).


There is absolutely no reference to prolonging age here and the verb of "Umley Lahum" is still referring to Satan not Allah!!!


First of all, the fact is that you have problem with translation not the intention thats a pretty good sign for this debate .

plzz..Dont enunciate the word NATIVE SPEAKERS as that will make you more biased because if your language base is in colloquial form then your understanding could be worse then any non Native speakers of Arabic.

If ou choose any  of the established translations then also in your mind th equestion of punishment will not come to play with...



Do you find any indication of punishing apostates?!!
Somewhere in the Glorious Quran?...


Cool



May Allah bless all
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
And how did the Quranic verse you've provided contradicts with the Hadiths....

The Quran says pray and the hadith says five times....

The Quran says apostates are lured and misguided by Satan and the hadith said and therefore they should be killed...

Contradiction would have been if Quran says that apostates should be left to be judged by Allah and hadith says kill them!!!

Can you follow the above logic!


First of all, Let me assure you that Islam is the only religion that avocates logic and reason. therefore as a Muslim , I love to be logical..

As I told you the Ahadiths elaborate the Quranic teaching complying the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran...

When the Glorous Quran says pray, then comes how to pray.. and when to pray. The Ahadits gives you that answer..


When The GLorious Quran speaks about Apostate, it says...

What the Glorious Quran says about apostate:----Noble Verse 47.25

ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم


Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age)....

what question comes to your mind !


Hopefully no!... Cool


quesions  like  who are actually apostate!?..Is there any catagory of that or not? could come in your mind..

But no question of punishment...read the verse once again...


You use Al-Hilali translation which is a joke for a native Arabic linguist like myself.

Please have a look at all translations"



Quote:
25 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْهُدَى الشَّيْطَانُ سَوَّلَ لَهُمْ وَأَمْلَى لَهُم
ْ
Shakir 47:25 Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.

yusufali 47:25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.

Pickthal 47:25 Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein.

Al-Hilali 47:25 Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitân (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allâh) prolonged their term (age).


There is absolutely no reference to prolonging age here and the verb of "Umley Lahum" is still referring to Satan not Allah!!!


First of all, the fact is that you have problem with translation not the intention thats a pretty good sign for this debate .

plzz..Dont enunciate the word NATIVE SPEAKERS as that will make you more biased because if your language base is in colloquial form then your understanding could be worse then any non Native speakers of Arabic.

If ou choose any  of the established translations then also in your mind th equestion of punishment will not come to play with...


What sort of an answer is this????

Cut to the chase and show the Arabic words referring to prolong life and using Allah as a subjective and not Satan.

Please don't try to fog off the point I made. Stick to the topic and show me the Arabic words in the verse that proves your claim. Simple!
All_Brains

You obviosuly believe that the hadith of killing apostates is "Israeliat"! and the Sirah of the prophet and Sahabah are made up in parts....So how about we stick to the Quran....Shall we????
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
And how did the Quranic verse you've provided contradicts with the Hadiths....

The Quran says pray and the hadith says five times....

The Quran says apostates are lured and misguided by Satan and the hadith said and therefore they should be killed...

Contradiction would have been if Quran says that apostates should be left to be judged by Allah and hadith says kill them!!!

Can you follow the above logic!


First of all, Let me assure you that Islam is the only religion that avocates logic and reason. therefore as a Muslim , I love to be logical..

As I told you the Ahadiths elaborate the Quranic teaching complying the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran...

When the Glorous Quran says pray, then comes how to pray.. and when to pray. The Ahadits gives you that answer..


When The GLorious Quran speaks about Apostate, it says...

What the Glorious Quran says about apostate:----Noble Verse 47.25

ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم


Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age)....

what question comes to your mind !


Hopefully no!... Cool


quesions  like  who are actually apostate!?..Is there any catagory of that or not? could come in your mind..

But no question of punishment...read the verse once again...


You use Al-Hilali translation which is a joke for a native Arabic linguist like myself.

Please have a look at all translations"



Quote:
25 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْهُدَى الشَّيْطَانُ سَوَّلَ لَهُمْ وَأَمْلَى لَهُم
ْ
Shakir 47:25 Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.

yusufali 47:25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.

Pickthal 47:25 Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein.

Al-Hilali 47:25 Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitân (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allâh) prolonged their term (age).


There is absolutely no reference to prolonging age here and the verb of "Umley Lahum" is still referring to Satan not Allah!!!


First of all, the fact is that you have problem with translation not the intention thats a pretty good sign for this debate .

plzz..Dont enunciate the word NATIVE SPEAKERS as that will make you more biased because if your language base is in colloquial form then your understanding could be worse then any non Native speakers of Arabic.

If ou choose any  of the established translations then also in your mind th equestion of punishment will not come to play with...


What sort of an answer is this????

Cut to the chase and show the Arabic words referring to prolong life and using Allah as a subjective and not Satan.

Please don't try to fog off the point I made. Stick to the topic and show me the Arabic words in the verse that proves your claim. Simple!



Dear,

The topic is .... PUNISHMENT OF APOSTATES IN ISLAM


And I am forever in the TOPIC.


Hope the same from you..
All_Brains

QURAN ONLY QUESTION:


Quote:
34
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ
وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيّاً كَبِيراً

Shakir 4:34 Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

yusufali 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Pickthal 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Al-Hilali 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.


How do you justify Allah's behavior against women in this verse? And what do you think of the beating punishment?
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

Dear,

The topic is .... PUNISHMENT OF APOSTATES IN ISLAM


And I am forever in the TOPIC.


Hope the same from you..


You're playing dodge ball here and it's quite clear! I will save you your face and move to a Quran only topic as above.

You believe that apostates should be left for God to judge and that's ok with me.
Intellectual_fighter

Wait

We havent yet finished our discussion on APOSTATES in the light of GLorious Qruan then the Ahadiths...


Here I will go for all the English translation of that verse...

47:25 ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم


Yusuf Ali:
[047:025]  Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.



Sher Ali:
[047:025]  Surely, those who turn their backs after guidance has become manifest to them, Satan has seduced them and holds out false hopes to them.

Shakir:
[047:025]  Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.

Pickthall:
[047:025]  Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein.

Sale:
[047:025]  Verily they who turn their backs, after the true direction is made manifest unto them; Satan shall prepare their wickedness for them, and God shall bear with them for a time.

Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:
[047:025]  Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age).

Palmer:
[047:025]  Verily, those who turn their backs after the guidance that has been manifested to them - Satan induces them, but (God) lets them go on for a time!

Arberry:
[047:025]  Those who have turned back in their traces after the guidance has become clear to them, Satan it was that tempted them, and God respited them.



Dr. Munir Munshey :
[047:025]  They turned away, even though the guidance itself had convinced them of its truth. Therefore, Shaitan deceived them and gave them false hope!

Rodwell:
[047:025]  But as to those who return to their errors after "the guidance" hath been made plain to them, Satan shall beguile them, and fill them with his suggestions.




There you see that no less than four translators have used God...



Anywayz,, as this is not the topic I wont go further on that..




So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.
Intellectual_fighter

Then comes who are apostates? and is there any classification of them?..


What do you know.
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:


So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.


Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
Then comes who are apostates? and is there any classification of them?..


What do you know.


Apostate point is over. It seems that you don't want to touch the beating wife issue with a 10 foot pole! Smile

It's quite tricky I know, but hey....it's your Quran!
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:


So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.


Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.



Dear A_B,

I really dislike to be misinterpreted . I told you that what would be the line of explanation, didnt I?..

Atfirst the Glorious Quran on a certain topic..Then on that same topic the Ahadiths...

How many times I will have to clarify this my dear brother.

After getting a result from the Glorious Quran, we will get the result from Ahadiths and after that we would be able to find the original picture.


Let us be patience on this topic of Apostates.


I aint rejecting Ahadiths. Talk about The Glorious Quran then comes ahadiths..You will see that how the Ahadiths comply with the teaching of the Glorious QUran..



Very Happy
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:


So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.


Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.



Dear A_B,

I really dislike to be misinterpreted . I told you that what would be the line of explanation, didnt I?..

Atfirst the Glorious Quran on a certain topic..Then on that same topic the Ahadiths...

How many times I will have to clarify this my dear brother.

After getting a result from the Glorious Quran, we will get the result from Ahadiths and after that we would be able to find the original picture.


Let us be patience on this topic of Apostates.


I aint rejecting Ahadiths. Talk about The Glorious Quran then comes ahadiths..You will see that how the Ahadiths comply with the teaching of the Glorious QUran..


Very Happy


Sure...and I agree with you...Quran did no prescribe the death penalty for apostates and hadith did.

You believe that the Quran is superior to hadith and whenever there is a contradiction between the two, the Quran rule should be applied!

I have shown you a logical equation of contradiction, which you did not accept!

We now move on, leave this to the audience to make up their mind on and we focus on other topics...

I see you still avoiding the wife beating verse!
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:


So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.


Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.



Dear A_B,

I really dislike to be misinterpreted . I told you that what would be the line of explanation, didnt I?..

Atfirst the Glorious Quran on a certain topic..Then on that same topic the Ahadiths...

How many times I will have to clarify this my dear brother.

After getting a result from the Glorious Quran, we will get the result from Ahadiths and after that we would be able to find the original picture.


Let us be patience on this topic of Apostates.


I aint rejecting Ahadiths. Talk about The Glorious Quran then comes ahadiths..You will see that how the Ahadiths comply with the teaching of the Glorious QUran..


Very Happy


Sure...and I agree with you...Quran did no subscribe the death penalty for apostates and hadith did.

You believe that the Quran is superior to hadith and whenever there is a contradiction between the two, the Quran rule should be applied!

I have shown you a logical equation of contradiction, which you did not accept!

We now move on, leave this to the audience to make up their mind on and we focus on other topics...

I see you still avoiding the wife beating verse!



First of all, a Sahih Hadith never contradicts with the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran..A sahih hadith elaborates the fundamental QURANIC TEACNING..DDOESNT CONTRADICT..

CONTRADICT MEANS GOING AGIANST , AND ELABORATE MEANS GIVING PROPER EXPLANATION.



When you tried to prove contradiction , you were refuted  Cool ...
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:


So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.


Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.



Dear A_B,

I really dislike to be misinterpreted . I told you that what would be the line of explanation, didnt I?..

Atfirst the Glorious Quran on a certain topic..Then on that same topic the Ahadiths...

How many times I will have to clarify this my dear brother.

After getting a result from the Glorious Quran, we will get the result from Ahadiths and after that we would be able to find the original picture.


Let us be patience on this topic of Apostates.


I aint rejecting Ahadiths. Talk about The Glorious Quran then comes ahadiths..You will see that how the Ahadiths comply with the teaching of the Glorious QUran..


Very Happy


Sure...and I agree with you...Quran did no subscribe the death penalty for apostates and hadith did.

You believe that the Quran is superior to hadith and whenever there is a contradiction between the two, the Quran rule should be applied!

I have shown you a logical equation of contradiction, which you did not accept!

We now move on, leave this to the audience to make up their mind on and we focus on other topics...

I see you still avoiding the wife beating verse!



First of all, a Sahih Hadith never contradicts with the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran..A sahih hadith elaborates the fundamental QURANIC TEACNING..DDOESNT CONTRADICT..

CONTRADICT MEANS GOING AGIANST , AND ELABORATE MEANS GIVING PROPER EXPLANATION.



When you tried to prove contradiction , you were refuted  Cool ...


Excuse me sir!

So when Allah say no death to apostates in the Quran and the Sahih of the hadiths says death to them,  what do you call that?

p.s: This will be the last post in response of apostasy before we move to the "wife beating" verse!
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:


So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.


Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.



Dear A_B,

I really dislike to be misinterpreted . I told you that what would be the line of explanation, didnt I?..

Atfirst the Glorious Quran on a certain topic..Then on that same topic the Ahadiths...

How many times I will have to clarify this my dear brother.

After getting a result from the Glorious Quran, we will get the result from Ahadiths and after that we would be able to find the original picture.


Let us be patience on this topic of Apostates.


I aint rejecting Ahadiths. Talk about The Glorious Quran then comes ahadiths..You will see that how the Ahadiths comply with the teaching of the Glorious QUran..


Very Happy


Sure...and I agree with you...Quran did no subscribe the death penalty for apostates and hadith did.

You believe that the Quran is superior to hadith and whenever there is a contradiction between the two, the Quran rule should be applied!

I have shown you a logical equation of contradiction, which you did not accept!

We now move on, leave this to the audience to make up their mind on and we focus on other topics...

I see you still avoiding the wife beating verse!



First of all, a Sahih Hadith never contradicts with the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran..A sahih hadith elaborates the fundamental QURANIC TEACNING..DDOESNT CONTRADICT..

CONTRADICT MEANS GOING AGIANST , AND ELABORATE MEANS GIVING PROPER EXPLANATION.



When you tried to prove contradiction , you were refuted  Cool ...


Excuse me sir!

So when Allah say no death to apostates in the Quran and the Sahih of the hadiths says death to them,  what do you call that?

p.s: This will be the last post in response of apostasy before we move to the "wife beating" verse!



So, you have found that in the Glorious Quran there is no talking of punishment for apostates.
Right.


Now, lets go for hadiths..

Plz do quote those Ahdiths,,
And let us find what they contain..
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:


So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.


Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.



Dear A_B,

I really dislike to be misinterpreted . I told you that what would be the line of explanation, didnt I?..

Atfirst the Glorious Quran on a certain topic..Then on that same topic the Ahadiths...

How many times I will have to clarify this my dear brother.

After getting a result from the Glorious Quran, we will get the result from Ahadiths and after that we would be able to find the original picture.


Let us be patience on this topic of Apostates.


I aint rejecting Ahadiths. Talk about The Glorious Quran then comes ahadiths..You will see that how the Ahadiths comply with the teaching of the Glorious QUran..


Very Happy


Sure...and I agree with you...Quran did no subscribe the death penalty for apostates and hadith did.

You believe that the Quran is superior to hadith and whenever there is a contradiction between the two, the Quran rule should be applied!

I have shown you a logical equation of contradiction, which you did not accept!

We now move on, leave this to the audience to make up their mind on and we focus on other topics...

I see you still avoiding the wife beating verse!



First of all, a Sahih Hadith never contradicts with the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran..A sahih hadith elaborates the fundamental QURANIC TEACNING..DDOESNT CONTRADICT..

CONTRADICT MEANS GOING AGIANST , AND ELABORATE MEANS GIVING PROPER EXPLANATION.



When you tried to prove contradiction , you were refuted  Cool ...


Excuse me sir!

So when Allah say no death to apostates in the Quran and the Sahih of the hadiths says death to them,  what do you call that?

p.s: This will be the last post in response of apostasy before we move to the "wife beating" verse!



So, you have found that in the Glorious Quran there is no talking of punishment for apostates.
Right.


Now, lets go for hadiths..

Plz do quote those Ahdiths,,
And let us find what they contain..


I hope your command of the English language is better than your Arabic!

The apostate point is over!!!

We have now moved the to a "Quran only" inquiry.

Please go to the wife beating post and answer the questions directed at you.

Please comply with the etiquettes of one on one debate.

Thank you
All_Brains
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:


So, whats the final result about apostate  we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.


Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.



Dear A_B,

I really dislike to be misinterpreted . I told you that what would be the line of explanation, didnt I?..

Atfirst the Glorious Quran on a certain topic..Then on that same topic the Ahadiths...

How many times I will have to clarify this my dear brother.

After getting a result from the Glorious Quran, we will get the result from Ahadiths and after that we would be able to find the original picture.


Let us be patience on this topic of Apostates.


I aint rejecting Ahadiths. Talk about The Glorious Quran then comes ahadiths..You will see that how the Ahadiths comply with the teaching of the Glorious QUran..


Very Happy


Sure...and I agree with you...Quran did no subscribe the death penalty for apostates and hadith did.

You believe that the Quran is superior to hadith and whenever there is a contradiction between the two, the Quran rule should be applied!

I have shown you a logical equation of contradiction, which you did not accept!

We now move on, leave this to the audience to make up their mind on and we focus on other topics...

I see you still avoiding the wife beating verse!



First of all, a Sahih Hadith never contradicts with the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran..A sahih hadith elaborates the fundamental QURANIC TEACNING..DDOESNT CONTRADICT..

CONTRADICT MEANS GOING AGIANST , AND ELABORATE MEANS GIVING PROPER EXPLANATION.



When you tried to prove contradiction , you were refuted  Cool ...


Excuse me sir!

So when Allah say no death to apostates in the Quran and the Sahih of the hadiths says death to them,  what do you call that?

p.s: This will be the last post in response of apostasy before we move to the "wife beating" verse!



So, you have found that in the Glorious Quran there is no talking of punishment for apostates.
Right.


Now, lets go for hadiths..

Plz do quote those Ahdiths,,
And let us find what they contain..


I hope your command of the English language is better than your Arabic!

The apostate point is over!!!

We have now moved the to a "Quran only" inquiry.

Please go to the wife beating post and answer the questions directed at you.

Please comply with the etiquettes of one on one debate.

Thank you
All_Brains



Dear you are most welcome,

Its really an astounding fact that you are forgetting what I told you the simple line of explanation.

1. The Glorious Quran
2. Noble Ahadiths
3. Combined explanation .
4. Ultimate result.....


Apostates

Scholars of the four schools (madhahib) classified apostasy into three (3) categories: beliefs in the heart, actions committed by certain parts of the body, and sayings with the tongue. Ar-Ramliyy, from the school of Imam ash-Shafi^iyy, classified apostasy into these three categories and gave examples of each in his book, Explanation of Minhaj, as did Imam an-Nawawiyy in his book, Rawdat at-Talibin. Qadi ^Iyad and Imam Muhammad ^Ulaysh from the Malikiyy school gave examples of these three (3) types of apostasy. Likewise did Imam Ibnu ^Abidin and Badr arRashid from the Hanifyyy school and Imam alBuhutiyy from the Hanbaliyy school. Ibn asSubkiyy said in his book At-Tabaqat : " Imam Al-Ash^ariyy , his students and all Muslims do not disagree upon that he who says a blasphemous word or he who does a blasphemous doing is a blasphemer ( kafir). He is not a believer in Allah, and he shall remain in Hellfire forever, even if he knew the truth in his heart. This is a case of scholarly consensus; not even two Muslims would disagree on that matter.



The Muhadith, Hafidh, Faqih and Linguist Murtada Az-Zabidiyy said: " the scholars from the four schools (madhhab) authored in exposing the types of apostasy."



The scholar's classification of apostasy into these three categories facilitates one's learning and understanding of the subject--thereby making it easier to avoid falling into it. Classification as such can be easily understood from different ayat in the Qur'an. In Surat al-Hujurat, Ayah 15, Allah said:



which means: [The believers are those who believe in Allah and His Messenger, and they do not doubt in that belief.] This ayah reflects that category of apostasy pertaining to beliefs in the heart. In Surat Fussilat, Ayah 37, Allah said:



which means: do not prostrate for the sun or the moon, rather prostrate for Allah Who created the sun and the moon.] This ayah reflects that category of apostasy pertaining to actions committed by different parts of the body. In Surat at-Tawbah,

Ayah 74, Allah said:



which means: [They swear by Allah that they did not utter, and they have said the word of blasphemy and blasphemed after having been Muslims.] This ayah reflects that category of apostasy pertaining to sayings.



Each one of these three categories of apostasy is divided into many subdivisions, and the scholars gave many examples of each.



An example of the first category of apostasy--beliefs in the heart--is for one to have doubt in the existence of Allah or doubt in the message of Prophet Muhammad. Also blasphemous is to doubt in the message of any of the messengers or prophets of Allah known to be a messenger or a prophet by the layman and the scholar alike, such as Adam, Ibrahim, ^Isa, or Musa. Doubting in the revelation of the Qur'an to Sayyidina Muhammad is blasphemy, as is doubting about matters such as the Day of Judgment, the existence of Paradise and Hell, or other such matters upon which there has been scholarly consensus, such as Reward and Punishment. Doubting in matters which are not commonly known among the Muslims--layman and scholar alike--like the existence of the Basin (Hawd) that the believers will drink from prior to entering Paradise, is not blasphemy except if one was stubborn about it in that he knew this matter is part of the Religion and still denies it.



Included in the category of apostasy pertaining to beliefs in the heart is to believe anything other than Allah exists without a beginning. This was the belief of the Greek philosophers, and following in their footsteps, Ibn Taymiyyah, who said the kind of the world exists without a beginning. Only Allah exists without a beginning and His attributes are eternal and everlasting and do not change. Everything else is a creation of Allah and has a beginning to its existence. Qadi ^Iyad, alMutawaliyy, and Ibn Hajar al^Asqalaniyy, and others established the scholarly consensus (ijma^) on the blasphemy of he who believes the world exists without a beginning.



Renouncing any of the attributes of Allah, known by ijma^ He is attributed with--such as knowing about everything is blasphemy. Also blasphemous is he who renounces that Allah is attributed with Power, Will, Knowledge, Hearing, Sight, or Speech (Kalam). Renouncing any of these attributes of Allah is blasphemous because the mind alone is sufficient in knowing that Allah must be attributed with these attributes, i.e., these attributes are a condition for the status of Godhood and as such, one is not excused by ignorance. Ibn alJawziyy said: "There is consensus on the blasphemy of he who negates Allah has power over everything."



He who believes that Allah resembles any of his creations in His Self, Attributes, or Doings has blasphemed. The one who believes Allah is a body or an illumination, or believes Allah exists 'above' in the heavens, or that He sits on the throne is a blasphemer. All these are attributes of the creation and are non-befitting to attribute to the Creator. If Allah was attributed with such attributes, He would have similars from among His creations, and Allah said in the Qur'an:



which means: [Nothing is like him.] If Allah was a body, He would be susceptible to the things all bodies are susceptible to like change, divisibility, and annihilation--all indications of shortage or weakness and nonbefitting to attribute to Allah.



Also is blasphemous he who renders lawful what is commonly known among the Muslims to be unlawful (such as adultery, fornication, stealing, or drinking alcohol,) or renders unlawful, matters commonly known among the Muslims to be lawful, (such as selling and marriage)--conditional in all this is the person is aware of the judgments of these matters in the Religion. Belying the Prophet, blemishing his attributes, or believing in the possibility of prophethood of someone after our Prophet Muhammad ( as the Qadiyany's claim ) is blasphemy.



The second category of apostasy, i.e., actions committed by different parts of the body, includes prostrating to an idol, or prostrating to the sun or the moon, or prostrating to any other creation with the purpose of worshipping it. Another example of apostasy of actions is knowingly throwing the Book of the Qur'an in the garbage, and likewise any papers containing Islamic information, as said by Ruyyaniyy and others, because this action displays mockery for the Religion. It is blasphemy to throw a paper on which is written a name of Allah, provided the thrower knows it is a name of Allah and is conscious of the fact when he threw the paper.



The third category of apostasy is that of sayings and the scholars said this category contains the most numerous cases. The Prophet said: <> Among these are great sins (kaba'ir) and blasphemy. In this age it has become common that people are so negligent and careless with their words to an extent some would utter words which turn them out of Islam, yet they do not deem such words sinful despite them being blasphemous. This complies with the saying of the Prophet, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam, related by at-Tirmidhiyy: <> The depth of 70 years falling is the bottom of Hellfire, and it is a place that only the blasphemers will reach. This hadith is explicit in showing uttering a word of blasphemy renders a person a non-Muslim--even if he does not deem that word harmful or a sin as such.



This hadith also shows that it is not a condition for committing blasphemy that the blasphemous saying be combined with either the belief in that saying or an action. The Prophet did not say: 'A person might utter a word and believe in it...' Nor did he say: 'A person might utter a word and act in blasphemy...' Nor did he say: 'A person might utter a word in seriousness...' Rather, he said: 'A person might utter a word he thinks harmless...' A similar hadith related by al-Bukhariyy and Muslim is proof that it is not even conditional that one must know the judgment of the uttered blasphemous word for him to have committed blasphemy.



Uttering blasphemous words out of anger does not excuse a person from committing blasphemy. Imam anNawawiyy said: "If a man was angry with his child or slave and hit him severely, then another person asked him, 'How can you do this? Aren't you a Muslim?' and to that his deliberate answer--though angry--was, 'No,' he blasphemed." This was said by Hanafiyy scholars as well as others.



In his hadith, the Prophet warned us against anger. His reply to a man who came to him asking for advice was, <> The Prophet warned us against anger because anger is not an excuse. Not controlling it can lead a person to various sins, including blasphemy.



The scholars mentioned that the third category of apostasy, apostasy of sayings, is like the sea that has no shoreline--meaning the examples could go on and on, and they cited many examples in their books--again, a warning to people not to speak words similar to them. For example, to curse Allah is blasphemy. He who curses Allah is not a Muslim. It is blasphemy to curse one of the Prophets or one of the Angels, as stated by Qadi ^Iyad To declare a Muslim a kafir without a valid reason causes the person to become a non-Muslim, as was mentioned by Mutawalli and al-Ghazaliyy. At-Tahawiyy said that to attribute to Allah any attribute of the creation--like age or time, body or place, organs or instruments, colors or shapes; or to say Allah has a partner or a child--all are blasphemous sayings. Also, intending to blaspheme in the future contingent upon the happening of a certain incident makes the person a blasphemer immediately.



Let the person take heed of the advice and warnings of the Prophet. Let him be extremely cautious not to let his tongue drive him to a destructive situation. As mentioned by Imam alGhazaliyy, the tongue has such a small size but the crime (sin) it could commit could be so great. Other scholars said the tongue is like a fierce beast which will attack you if you do not tie it up. Brother Muslim, learn well this subject of apostasy in an effort to avoid committing any of it. It is an obligation on every Muslim to protect his faith against whatever invalidates, interrupts and terminates it.



Then, if apostasy occurred from one, it is an obligation on him to immediately return to Islam by leaving out what caused him to apostate and uttering with the Testification of Faith (two shahadas) with the intention of clearing himself of apostasy. Left on him is the obligation to regret having committed apostasy and to intend not to go back to something similar in the future.
All_Brains

Dear I_F

I have left your above post regarding apostasy as a final post from you in that matter.

Any further posts regarding this matter may be subject to Moderation, as I think you have been deliberately avoiding the
"beating of wives" verses.

Please submit your answer and refutation with regards to the beating of the wife.

Thanks
All-Brains
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Dear I_F

I have left your above post regarding apostasy as a final post from you in that matter.

Any further posts regarding this matter may be subject to Moderation, as I think you have been deliberately avoiding the
"beating of wives" verses.

Please submit your answer and refutation with regards to the beating of the wife.

Thanks
All-Brains


Hellow A_B,

For  the Islamic courtesy, I will not post on the topic of apostasy more. But still, it is worth mentioning that We havent gone through the the simple line of explanation to reach the ultimate result that what is the punishment of apostasy in Islam..


Anywayz..I will now focus on your second topic of beating wife..Do tuned on! Cool


Kindest regards
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Dear I_F

I have left your above post regarding apostasy as a final post from you in that matter.

Any further posts regarding this matter may be subject to Moderation, as I think you have been deliberately avoiding the
"beating of wives" verses.

Please submit your answer and refutation with regards to the beating of the wife.

Thanks
All-Brains


Hellow A_B,

For  the Islamic courtesy, I will not post on the topic of apostasy more. But still, it is worth mentioning that We havent gone through the the simple line of explanation to reach the ultimate result that what is the punishment of apostasy in Islam..


Anywayz..I will now focus on your second topic of beating wife..Do tuned on! Cool


Kindest regards


Thanks I_F, you're quite a gentleman!

I will await your feedback an views on the "beating the wives" verse!
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Dear I_F

I have left your above post regarding apostasy as a final post from you in that matter.

Any further posts regarding this matter may be subject to Moderation, as I think you have been deliberately avoiding the
"beating of wives" verses.

Please submit your answer and refutation with regards to the beating of the wife.

Thanks
All-Brains


Hellow A_B,

For  the Islamic courtesy, I will not post on the topic of apostasy more. But still, it is worth mentioning that We havent gone through the the simple line of explanation to reach the ultimate result that what is the punishment of apostasy in Islam..


Anywayz..I will now focus on your second topic of beating wife..Do tuned on! Cool


Kindest regards


Thanks I_F, you're quite a gentleman!

I will await your feedback an views on the "beating the wives" verse!




الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا (4:34)




Meaning of the Words
For the three words fa'izu, wahjaru, and wadribu in the original, translated here ‘speak to them in a persuasive manner’, ‘leave them alone (in bed - fi'l-madage'),’ and ‘have intercourse’, respectively, see Raghib Lisan al-'Arab and Zamakhsari. Raghib in his Al-Mufridat fi Gharib al-Qur'an gives the meanings of these words with special reference to this verse. Fa-'izu, he says, means to 'to talk to them so persuasively as to melt their hearts.'
(See also v.63 of this Surah where it has been used in a similar sense.)

Hajara - Wahjaru (do not touch or moleste them)
Hajara, he says, means to separate body from body, and points out that the expression wahjaru hunna metaphorically means to refrain from touching or molesting them. Zamakhshari is more explicit in his Kshshaf when he says, 'do not get inside their blankets.'

Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding women guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

English language is not powerful enough when it comes to translating the meanings of the Arabic of the Quran. Nor for that matter, is any other language on earth. So, all we have is translations of meanings according to the best understanding of the translators.

The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning. Let us examine them.

Here is what we find from the scholars of the Arabic language:

Daraba (to have intercourse, not to beat)
Raghib points out that daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quotes the expression darab al-fahl an-naqah, 'the stud camel covered the she-camel,' which is also quoted by Lisan al-'Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean 'to strike them (women).' This view is strengthened by the Prophet's authentic hadith found in a number of authorities, including Bukhari and Muslim: "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" There are other traditions in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad bin Hanbal and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying: "Never beat God's handmaidens."

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

Daraba (to set forth, to make a clear statement or proclamation)

One of the key rules of understanding words of the Quran is to go to other places in the Quran to investigate the usage in other places. This word is used by Allah in other places in the Quran to mean "set forth" or "sets up for you" or "makes known to you" - as is demonstrated in the following verses:

Surah Ar-Ra'd (13:17) yadribu Allahu al-amthala

“Thus Allah sets forth a parable”
[here the word "yadirbu" is from the exact same root da-ra-ba]

Surah Ibrahim (14:24): Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan .. “Don’t you see how Allah sets forth a parable?..”

And again in the next verse: Surah Ibrahim (14:25) wa yadribu Allahu al-amthala li-naasi
“..and Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
[again the word yadirbu is from da-ra-ba]

Surah An-Nur (24:35) wa yadribu Allahu al0amthala lin-naasi
“And Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”

Surah Ar-Rum (30:2Cool Daraba lakum mathalan min anfusikum
“He sets forth for you a parable from yourselves..”

Surah At-Tahreem (66:10) Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo..
“Allah sets forth an example for those disbelievers..”

In fact, the word daraba has not been translated to mean (beat) or (hit) or (strike) in any other verse of the Quran except this one.

The words for (beat) as in [to hit] found in Surah Baqarah 2:275 ... kama yaqoomu allathee yatakhabbatuhu ash-shaytanu mina almassi..
"..like the standing of someone beaten by the devil (Satan) leading him to insanity."

And in Surah Ta Ha 20:18 Allah Says, “Qala hiya Aasaya atawakkao Aalayha waahushshu biha Aala ghanamee waliya feeha maaribu okhra.”
"This is my stick, whereon I lean, and wherewith I beat down branches for my sheep and wherein I find other uses."

As you can see, these are not even related to the word (daraba).

Verses 34 and 35 in Surah An-Nisaa' need to be read together to understand this is the proper relationship between men and women in general and husband and wife specifically.

Islam seeks to hold the family together and to make peace and reconciliation between spouses. The next verse makes it clear what to do in the case where it seems that divorce may be the result of the uncorrected bad behavior. It stresses appointing arbitrators from both sides and seeks reconciliation.

The first part of 34 deals with all men taking care of all women. Then goes on to explain the wife's proper obedience to Allah because He is the One Who has ordained this relationship of provision and protection for her and to be appreciative and respectful of her husband, guarding herself and his property in his absence. The man is told the proper way to behave when he finds his wife not complying with decency and proper behavior of a Muslim wife. He has a direct order to begin with admonishing her and then if there is compliance to leave her be and don't give her a hard time about it. However, if this continues, he should not have sex with her and this makes it clear to her that he is most serious and this not a joke. Again, if she comes around then he is to let it go and not bother her about it. Finally, if she still insists on such lewdness and bad conduct, he is to make it clear to her in no uncertain terms that they are going to be heading for separation or even divorce unless she comes back to proper behavior. Again, if she complies, then he should not bring it up and return to the bed with her.

And of course, this is all in an effort to translate one short but powerful phrase from Arabic to English. The sources are quoted herein and there may be other interpretations but the only acceptable ones are those based on the teachings of the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him.

And as always, Allahu 'Alim (Allah is the Knower)

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

In the past, some translators of this verse have mistakeningly used the word "beat" or "hit" or even "scourge" (as in the case of an old translation) to represent the word "daraba" in Arabic. This is not the opinion of all scholars especially Raghib and Zamakhshari as mentioned above and those who are well grounded in both Islam understanding and the English language.



the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)



Therefore, in the end we can say that there  nothing that can be called wife beating in Islam.

Islam is the religion of truth. None can deny it by being logical.. Cool


May Allah bless all.



Kindest regards.
Intellectual_fighter

Mutley wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:

Islam is the religion of truth. None can deny it by being logical.. Cool


peek a boo......

Shocked Surprised  Embarassed  : pukel Rolling Eyes P  Laughing  Laughing  Very Happy jocolor tongue  cyclops geek



Hellow dear Mutley,

As far as my thinking allows me to have an insight on one on one debate that everyone knows that there two person interact with eachother without being interrupted by anyother person.

But, its really surprising to find out that a senior member like you have breached the code..
Evil or Very Mad

By the way, the Logic is Islam and it is truth..


Cheers
All_Brains

Dear I_F

I am afraid your interpretation of the verb "daraba" is nothing but a very poor attempt at trying to get out of this somewhat embarrassing dilemma!!

I am also disappointed at your copy and past job. I would have expected a personal response from you based on your thinking.

You have disagreed with the position and translation understood and taken by 99.9% of the Muslims of the translation of this word.

Let me show you an example even using the English language.

Hit this man - Idrab haza al-rajul
I have hit this woman - Lakkad darabt hazeh al-mar'ah

You've hit the jackpot
Hit single
The shit hit the fan
I have hit rock bottom
I was hit by the latest interest increase


The above bolded examples of the word hit obviosuly don't mean to strike, but used the word hit in association with other words to give new meaning.

Yadrebu Methalan - to give example is expectable with the right sequence of words. I am afraid that word "wa edrabahun" was not attached to any word association that may give the word "hit" a new meaning deviating from its main and primary meaning, "to strike".

Also, does not follow the logic of issuing a series of escalated punishment to achieve the desired results:

Why would

1. preach, admonish, advise
2. dersert in bed
3. then give an example!!!????? No 3 it's too similar 1 and 2 would be the harshest???

Your argument is linguisically as well as logically fallible and this is evident by the overwhelming opposition your argument faces from your fellow Muslims themselves.
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Dear I_F

I am afraid your interpretation of the verb "daraba" is nothing but a very poor attempt at trying to get out of this somewhat embarrassing dilemma!!



Dear A_B, Greetings, as in my previous , you have seen that the process of interpretation..


You know this"--
The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning.

Therefore, I dont think there reamins any more argument on that..







Thank you.
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Dear I_F

I am afraid your interpretation of the verb "daraba" is nothing but a very poor attempt at trying to get out of this somewhat embarrassing dilemma!!



Dear A_B, Greetings, as in my previous , you have seen that the process of interpretation..


You know this"--
The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning.

Therefore, I dont think there reamins any more argument on that..

Thank you.


It seems that you have scratched your head long at this one!

Yes, there is!!!!

Can you then explain why all Tafsir specialists, all translations and 99.9% of Muslims believe that the word "daraba" means to (hit/beat/strike/scourge)????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I will not accept your own personal endeavor, as it is not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Muslims and the entire scholars population.

Your effort is simply regarded as a poor attempt at apology.
All_Brains

Since there is no sign of our Muslim friend I_F and no refute received, I think it's pretty clear to all the readers that Islam has no answer to these logical question and therefore I will be locking this thread.

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