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ibnishaq

isaac and ishmael

hi

does islam believe that all jews come from isaac and all arabs come from ishmael?
BMZ

Re: isaac and ishmael

ibnishaq wrote:
hi

does islam believe that all jews come from isaac and all arabs come from ishmael?


No.
ibnishaq

Re: isaac and ishmael

BMZ wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
hi

does islam believe that all jews come from isaac and all arabs come from ishmael?


No.

are you sure?
AhmedBahgat

well, Islam does not talk explicitly about the relationship between Isaac descendants and Ismael descendants, however it clearly tells us that both Ismael and Isaac were the children of Ibrahim, i.e. they were brother, i.e. both descendants must be related one way or another, even through Adam, all his descendants must be related, those who raise this issue (which is raised since the days of the prophet till today), for me are confused and really don’t understand the creation  of Allah

Salam
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Again, I’d like to quote from Andrew Rippin’s insightful book Muslims, these passages from a section called “Formative elements of classical Islam: The Qur’an”:
Quote:
The famous story from Genesis 2 concerning the sacrifice of the son of Abraham is also retold in the Qur’an, but the son is not identified by name and his identity became, for a time, subject to great debate in Islam (See Norman Calder, “From Midrash to Scripture: the Sacrifice of Abraham in the Early Islamic Tradition,” Le Muséon, 101 (1988), 375–402). The context of the Qur’anic passage would seem to suggest that Ishmael was the one who was sacrificed, since after the discussion of the sacrifice in the Qur’an (sura 37, verses 102–9) the passage goes on in verse 112 to say, “then We gave him the good tidings of Isaac, a prophet, one of the righteous,” suggesting that this was a totally separate character.

It interests me even more that he goes on to state this: “The reading of Ishmael as the intended victim gained further standing through the later ideology of the Muslim community which argued that the Jews had changed the biblical account to reflect well on their own heritage traced through Isaac; the Jews had done this rather than enhance the status of the Arabs and their descent through Ishmael (as related in the Bible, although that genealogy is nowhere echoed in the Qur’an).”

I conclude, therefore, that Muslims do believe this — most likely influenced by Jewish accounts of their origins — but they do not have any Qur’anic sanction to do so.
brainout

I agree, Pazuzu, but on grammatical grounds, only.  In another thread here in this forum, you'll find out more why, as Ahmed and I battled this out.  Essentially, in grammar a pronoun must have an antecedent noun, and the only antecedent nouns from v.83 onward for the pronoun in 37.113, is Abraham.  Since the "son" is Isaac in 101, then Isaac in 113 makes sense.  So only two people are referenced.

Now other passages in the Qu'ran speak well of Ishmael, but do not claim that he was the one sacrificed.  So I don't consider 37.83-113 a contradiction versus the Bible, though others long have.  The grammar rule is why, and it's the same rule in all languages.

There is an exception for God, where "He" is used kinda like we in English just capitalize the pronoun.  It's called a sacred "He", and it too is a common feature in every language, as the usage is quite ancient.  You can always tell when the sacred "He" is used, as some kind of divine power is demonstrated in the context, usually in close proximity to the verb to which such a "he" is suffixed or subject/object.  You don't find that sacred usage in Sura 37.83 and following, so it's not God who's the "him" in 113.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Right, thank you very much for that lesson in ‘Arabi! Unfortunately, as a child my parents sent me to a local ‘house mosque’ tutor who only taught us to read the Qur’an, not understand it. So I can read and pronounce ‘Arabi and Qur’anic extracts, but not understand them without help. Obviously I recognise words here and there (due to debates online and, especially, ‘Arabi words prevalent in Urdu, another language I speak), but not to a point where I can decipher meanings the way you just have Smile.
AhmedBahgat

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Again, I’d like to quote from Andrew Rippin’s insightful book Muslims, these passages from a section called “Formative elements of classical Islam: The Qur’an”:
Quote:
The famous story from Genesis 2 concerning the sacrifice of the son of Abraham is also retold in the Qur’an, but the son is not identified by name and his identity became, for a time, subject to great debate in Islam (See Norman Calder, “From Midrash to Scripture: the Sacrifice of Abraham in the Early Islamic Tradition,” Le Muséon, 101 (1988), 375–402). The context of the Qur’anic passage would seem to suggest that Ishmael was the one who was sacrificed, since after the discussion of the sacrifice in the Qur’an (sura 37, verses 102–9) the passage goes on in verse 112 to say, “then We gave him the good tidings of Isaac, a prophet, one of the righteous,” suggesting that this was a totally separate character.

It interests me even more that he goes on to state this: “The reading of Ishmael as the intended victim gained further standing through the later ideology of the Muslim community which argued that the Jews had changed the biblical account to reflect well on their own heritage traced through Isaac; the Jews had done this rather than enhance the status of the Arabs and their descent through Ishmael (as related in the Bible, although that genealogy is nowhere echoed in the Qur’an).”

I conclude, therefore, that Muslims do believe this — most likely influenced by Jewish accounts of their origins — but they do not have any Qur’anic sanction to do so.




Fuk Andrew Rippin’, who gives a fuk about him, not me of course

now what do mean by: but they do not have any Qur’anic sanction to do so.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

I simply HAD to take this screenshot to show you! Look at the very first advert directly underneath your post! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

LOOK HERE!
AhmedBahgat

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I simply HAD to take this screenshot to show you! Look at the very first advert directly underneath your post! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

LOOK HERE!


again, be straightforward and tell me using your own bloody words not another freak, what did you mean by: but they do not have any Qur’anic sanction to do so.?
brainout

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Right, thank you very much for that lesson in ‘Arabi! Unfortunately, as a child my parents sent me to a local ‘house mosque’ tutor who only taught us to read the Qur’an, not understand it. So I can read and pronounce ‘Arabi and Qur’anic extracts, but not understand them without help. Obviously I recognise words here and there (due to debates online and, especially, ‘Arabi words prevalent in Urdu, another language I speak), but not to a point where I can decipher meanings the way you just have Smile.


I loved the screen shot Smile  And by the way, I don't read Arabic, either.  I just know a few key things, and then I research like crazy.  I have to have a sound TEXTUAL reason for saying anything, no matter what the book is.

You'll love these sources, for Qu'ran:

OpenBurhan.net, great verse by verse display of the Qu'ran in Arabic or English with variations, click here.
Phonetic search at Islam city, click here.
Project Root search, an invaluable source for Arabic dictionary and ROOT meanings behind words.  Click here.

It's really true that the Arabic is needed.  So you have a head start, you can read it already.  I can understand it faster than normal because the Bible Hebrew is so similar.  But there are differences, and I have trouble reading the script letters.  That's okay.  One learns a day at a time.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Opened that first one and already it looks fantastic! Thank you so much for those links — favourited instantly.

Well, Hebrew and ‘Arabi both belong to the category of Semitic languages so you find plenty of similarities. I’ve noticed, for example, the SH sound in Hebrew (we call the letter ‘sheen’ in ‘Arabi) turns into an S (‘seen’) sound a lot. Hence Yeshua‘ rendered as Yesua‘ in the ‘Arabi Bible, Shalom into Salaam, etc.
brainout

True, Pazuzu.  The dissimilarities are usually ones you can trace.  Cat at FFI is good at helping on that, too.  And of course you'll find lots of disagreement and even fuzziness about origins and morphing of words.  Our beautimous All-Brains here is a philologist, and can help you even more.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Cheers for that. And I guessed that about All–Brains considering some of the debates revolving around language where he takes the other participant apart, haha. That and the fact that he helped me with my signature when I got it wrong Embarassed
All_Brains

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Cheers for that. And I guessed that about All–Brains considering some of the debates revolving around language where he takes the other participant apart, haha. That and the fact that he helped me with my signature when I got it wrong Embarassed


Genuine mistakes are part of the experience and I make them quite often. What I don't tolerate is mistakes made on purpose
to hide the truth and reach and premeditated conclusions.
brainout

Pazuzu, I gotta be honest, I really don't care whether Ishmael or Isaac is referenced in the 37.101-113 passage, but for a Muslim it would matter.  The entire hajj is a farce if it's not Ishmael.  So you'd think the Qu'ran would be more explicit, or have a parallel ayah somewhere else.

I know in Bible we face the same problem a lot.  The hermeneutical (aka tafsir, for Qu'ran) rule is to look for parallel passages to help truly prove the meaning in a questionnable one.  So technically, if this issue matters to you a lot, you should look elsewhere in the Qu'ran for any parallel ayahs.  I didn't find any, but that doesn't mean there are none.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Well, the second surah does make mention of the two together. 2:127 states “Abraham and Ishmael built up the foundation of the House” which, though not explicitly stated as such, muslims take to refer to the K‘aba. Earlier, God states: “We made the House a resort and sanctuary for your people” (2:125) and goes on to say “We commanded Abraham and Ishmael: ‘Purify my House for those who walk around it’ ” (still 2:125).

Actually, typing that out has made me realise one thing: orthodox Islamic views hold that Abraham created the K‘aba and the Hajj comes from emulating his and his concubine Hagar’s wanderings in the desert. And yet in the passage above God states to Abraham to purify the K‘aba, and describes the circumambulations made by pilgrims!

This suggests to me that Muhammad has taken the rituals already prevalent during his time and backdated it to Abraham, saying people did it back then, yet forgotten he had stated Abraham’s actions themselves led to the Hajj! Either that, or the legend behind why they perform Hajj in a certain way came later…
brainout

Yeah, I remember what you're talking about.  There's a good month's journey on foot between Mamre in Israel, where Abraham WAS when Hagar was put out (Bible's Genesis 16) -- and Makka.  I really doubt she went that far, and doubt even more, that Abraham followed her, since after all it was Gabriel who met her.   Her, alone (she was still pregnant, as you'll see in Genesis 16).

The whole story is weird.  Judaism prescribed going to the Temple three times a year (mandated), in March-April, Pentecost 50 days after Passover ended (not began), and at RoshHaShanah, usually September-October.  The latter is like the New Year (I don't know how familiar you are with Judaism).  So it ended up like a peregrination, because you'd leave and come back, but it was frequent, not a once-in-a-lifetime thing, and you didn't really get any brownie points for it.

So in addition to what you're saying, it seems like Judaism is being aped, too.  Surgically.  As if to negate it.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

brainout wrote:
it seems like Judaism is being aped, too.  Surgically.  As if to negate it.


A recurring theme in the establishment of Islam. Take, for example, the Jewish Day of Atonement which Muhammad decided to fast on followed by fasting the whole month of Ramadan, as though to ‘outdo’ the Jews at their own game.
brainout

Pazuzu, sibling rivalry down the centuries, then.  

So too for the number of times a day to pray, though (and ygalg will hopefully correct me) I think in Judaism it was three times a day.  I know it was morning and evening, but probably also mid-day?  I'm rusty here, lol.

Pork prohibition and circumcision, though not alcohol (wine in moderation was used at sabbath);  Friday instead of Saturday (why?) -- what other parallels?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Well, this site contains an excellent summarised table detailing parallels and another one listing differences and why they developed differently:

http://www.houseofdavid.ca/isl_jud.htm (simply scroll down a bit).

Now it does contain some anti–Islamic stuff, tries to present Judaism in a less bloodthirsty light, and makes a couple of unfair comparisons (such as comparing the ORIGIN of Islam with a period much later in Judaic history, as opposed to the violent origins of Judaism re: David carving out the land of Israel through massacring seemingly all of Canaan, etc), but still stands as an excellent resource.
brainout

Thank you, Pazuzu.  The story of the Canaanites isn't really parallel to the story of the origin of Islam, and would require a separate treatment.  If we want to talk about origin to origin, Judaism began with the Exodus, which itself was pretty violent but not done by Jews, according to the story.  Seems like the Hegira is meant to parallel the Exodus, that's why I bring it up.  Hegira even occurs based on Judaic timing (490 years after Bar Kochba began), but that's not relevant here.

Thanks again for the link, Pazuzu!  This is most valuable!
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

The site also contains numerous other invaluable articles, such as one on the history and development of the Hebrew language, Jews and ‘Arabs in the Bible, etc.

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