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Tvebak

Islam and democracy

One of the great issues of the contemporary world in relation to islam is the question of "democracy". As I see it there's different arguments in this matter.

- some argues that islam is directly against democracy

- others argue that islam is indifferent towards democracy

- others argue that islam is for democracy

What are yours view on this matter, considering the historical instution which we call islam, fx the different sects, considering the different texts which is a part of islam, ie. quran, hadith etc.?

Arguments with textual references are appreciated.

Cheers

PS. I will later include some works on the idea of democracy in relation with islam.

EDIT: I've added a poll. If you miss any poll-answer feel free to tell. Please explain your veiws if you like.
Baal

The only claim I ever seen muslims do about democracy is that Abu Bakr and Khattab and Usman were picked through a (Shura - Advicing) council.

Which is a large farce. Because as soon as Abu bakr became Khalif, he went to attack all the people who refused to hand him over the jizya. He labelled them as murtads and attacked them killing 70,000 people.

And when Usman, at 80yrs old was asked to leave his seat, he complained that the people chose to put him there how can they change their mind after so many years. That was after he siphoned tons of money to his family the ammawid and guaranteeing they stayed in power for 10 khalifas until the Abbasid came in and killed their cousins the ammawids.

The Abbasids even did something really strange that no other king EVER made. They ordered that all Ten bodies of all their Khalifa cousins, be exhumed, cut up, and hung on the city gates where they were buried.

These were the first muslims.

After Ali, there was long runs of families holding the khalifa positions, at most the shura councils had to pick which son or which brother got to succeed. That has NOTHING To do with democracy. And families were only deposed though violent coups by other families, again nothing to do with Democracy. So historically Islam has nothing to show for democracy.

Democracy is a talked about as a joke in islamic countries. It is considered a Western Construct that is destined to fail.
Tvebak

Baal wrote:
The only claim I ever seen muslims do about democracy is that Abu Bakr and Khattab and Usman were picked through a (Shura - Advicing) council.

Which is a large farce. Because as soon as Abu bakr became Khalif, he went to attack all the people who refused to hand him over the jizya. He labelled them as murtads and attacked them killing 70,000 people.

And when Usman, at 80yrs old was asked to leave his seat, he complained that the people chose to put him there how can they change their mind after so many years. That was after he siphoned tons of money to his family the ammawid and guaranteeing they stayed in power for 10 khalifas until the Abbasid came in and killed their cousins the ammawids.

The Abbasids even did something really strange that no other king EVER made. They ordered that all Ten bodies of all their Khalifa cousins, be exhumed, cut up, and hung on the city gates where they were buried.

These were the first muslims.

After Ali, there was long runs of families holding the khalifa positions, at most the shura councils had to pick which son or which brother got to succeed. That has NOTHING To do with democracy. And families were only deposed though violent coups by other families, again nothing to do with Democracy. So historically Islam has nothing to show for democracy.

Democracy is a talked about as a joke in islamic countries. It is considered a Western Construct that is destined to fail.


Hello Baal

The first reference you have can hardly be called "democracy" as the "rule by the demos".

But your view on it, I take, is that "islam is against democracy"?

Quote:
Democracy is a talked about as a joke in islamic countries. It is considered a Western Construct that is destined to fail


I'm aware that many muslims have this attitude towards democracy, but I'm also aware that many muslims have another opinion about democracy. These kinds of muslims can be divided in different groups as I see it:

- those which thinks that islam promotes democracy

- those which thinks that islam is indifferent towards democracy

- those which are more or less "cultural" muslims (incl both believers and "don't knows")

At the last election here in Denmark there there was a little story on the matter. A local ("cultural" believing) muslim politician handed out flyers in the street promoting her own election for a soft socialist party. She said that many greeted her friendly and recieved the posters, but she also recieved several bigotry comments because of her cultural background and on the other side comments from muslims who denied her flyers with the comment "I'm muslim and therefore I  don't vote".

I've also often meet the comment that "muslims cannot accept man-made laws" and therefore cannot accept democracy.

But what are the reasons for the different arguments. Is it tradition, or is it strict law from either the one or the other religious text?

Cheers
All_Brains

I am not going to go into fine details, but will showcase the big picture.

1. We have a God (Allah) that leads people astray or to believe whenever he wants.
2. We have a general Islamic doctrine that says "whenever Allah puts a full stop, there is no place for a question mark".
3. We have an Islamic punishment of Muslim apostates that does not have room for negotiation. Death!
4. There is no room for human democracy and freedom of choice when there is "supposedly" a divine law that supersedes all.
5. How can freedom of choice exists in the universe of an omniscient God???

Most religions directly contradict the nature of Democracy and Islam tops them all.
Tvebak

All_Brains wrote:
I am not going to go into fine details, but will showcase the big picture.

1. We have a God (Allah) that leads people astray or to believe whenever he wants.
2. We have a general Islamic doctrine that says "whenever Allah puts a full stop, there is no place for a question mark".
3. We have an Islamic punishment of Muslim apostates that does not have room for negotiation. Death!
4. There is no room for human democracy and freedom of choice when there is "supposedly" a divine law that supersedes all.
5. How can freedom of choice exists in the universe of an omniscient God???

Most religions directly contradict the nature of Democracy and Islam tops them all.


Hi A_B

Thanks for the comment.
So you argue that the notion of a "divine law" makes it irrelevant to even talk about democracy? and that this notion is sufficiently grounded in the religious texts?

I agree with your view on the relationship between religions and democracy, but I would like to stay on islam in this thread.

Cheers
ibnishaq

a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.
All_Brains

Tvebak wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
I am not going to go into fine details, but will showcase the big picture.

1. We have a God (Allah) that leads people astray or to believe whenever he wants.
2. We have a general Islamic doctrine that says "whenever Allah puts a full stop, there is no place for a question mark".
3. We have an Islamic punishment of Muslim apostates that does not have room for negotiation. Death!
4. There is no room for human democracy and freedom of choice when there is "supposedly" a divine law that supersedes all.
5. How can freedom of choice exists in the universe of an omniscient God???

Most religions directly contradict the nature of Democracy and Islam tops them all.


Hi A_B

Thanks for the comment.
So you argue that the notion of a "divine law" makes it irrelevant to even talk about democracy? and that this notion is sufficiently grounded in the religious texts?

I agree with your view on the relationship between religions and democracy, but I would like to stay on islam in this thread.

Cheers


Of course the focus is on Islam. I am merely avoiding the future excuses and apologies by Muslims saying that other religions have that dilemma too.

The reason why Islam tops the list of religions is that the Quran is claimed to be the unaltered literal words of God!

Who can change, alter, or improve on that? You will end up "literally" losing your head!
ibnishaq

All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.

egypt lebanon
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.

egypt lebanon


Ibnishaq

You forgot I am from Egypt. There is no democracy their mate! It's fake.

Mr. Mubarak has been there since 1981!!! almost 27 years with one president.

And guess who's the likely heir??? His son.
Realist

ibnishaq wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.

egypt lebanon


Why not lets talk about the FUNDAMENTALIST Saudi and Iran or the GENOCIDAL Sudan, or the perpetual WARRING Somalia, or the CORRUPT Indonesia and Nigeria or the TERRORIST HOSTING Pakistan or the PERPETUAL BEGGARS in Palestine or the Church and Temple destroying, dhimmi making Terrorist hosting and supporting Malaysia, or the ungovernable Yemen or the DICTATORSHIP of Syria and Jordan.

There is not ONE Mohammedan country that is not rife with misogyny , Violence, corruption, and oppression against other religions. As A_B already said democracy in Egypt is a JOKE and in Lebanon the MOHAMMEDANS are doing everything they can to DESTROY democracy.
kafir forever

The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.
Tvebak

kafir forever wrote:
The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.


Hi Kafir

Well because democracy lacks in the countries which we think of as islamic it does not necissarelly mean that democracy and islam is to opposing entities. I'm not here to defend (at first) any views of the matter. What I would like is to people to give their views on the matter and argue them with some fx textual or historical sources (does the quran prohibit elections for instans)

Cheers
Tvebak

All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.

egypt lebanon


Ibnishaq

You forgot I am from Egypt. There is no democracy their mate! It's fake.

Mr. Mubarak has been there since 1981!!! almost 27 years with one president.

And guess who's the likely heir??? His son.


Ahh... some disagrement. Wonderful.

Well first of all it's a hard task to explain what exaclty "a democracy" is (many have tried to argue for a definition in heavy, thick and difficult books. Some of this I will return to later), but lets include one thing that is certain to be included in the matter of democracy; - making laws.

Now as I see it A_B is arguing that islam is against democracy, because the quran is "the divine law" and nobody is "allowed" to change the words of the quran therefore one cannot "improve" or "alter" these laws.

Shaq is arguing that democracy is indifferent because that one can elect others to interpretet "the divine law" of the quran. This pose a problem in my opinion; how does the quran position itself on the matter of trafic of cars?
I have to disagree with your argument, shaq. "Allowing" election of people to "interpret the divine law" does not make "democracy". Maybe we could call it "theodemocracy"!

Cheers

PS. I would like to have the second voter for "indifferen" to give some thoughts. My guess would be BMZ or Ahmed?
kafir forever

Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.


Hi Kafir

Well because democracy lacks in the countries which we think of as islamic it does not necissarelly mean that democracy and islam is to opposing entities.


I did not say that the lack of democray in Islamic countries means that Islam and decomocracy are incompatible, or that democracy is desirable.

Quote:
I'm not here to defend (at first) any views of the matter. What I would like is to people to give their views on the matter and argue them with some fx textual or historical sources (does the quran prohibit elections for instans)

Cheers


Democracy does not mean elections, either.  Democracy means rule by the majority.  I will give you two very explicit examples of democracy --  three wolves and two sheep voting on whether or not to have mutton for dinner.  Another example is three rapists and two women voting on whether or not to rape the women.

Now, I will be the first to agree that democracy is a flawed concept of government given the examples I have just given, but where does Islam incorporate this concept?

Even if you go beyond the strict definition of democracy to the concept of self rule, there is nothing in Islam that promotes self rule.  The only law is the law of Allah, and that is tyrannical by its very nature.
Tvebak

kafir forever wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.


Hi Kafir

Well because democracy lacks in the countries which we think of as islamic it does not necissarelly mean that democracy and islam is to opposing entities.


I did not say that the lack of democray in Islamic countries means that Islam and decomocracy are incompatible, or that democracy is desirable.


No, that was just an assumption on my side  Very Happy you comment was right in the tail on some comments on the matter.

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
I'm not here to defend (at first) any views of the matter. What I would like is to people to give their views on the matter and argue them with some fx textual or historical sources (does the quran prohibit elections for instans)

Cheers


Democracy does not mean elections, either. †Democracy means rule by the majority. †I will give you two very explicit examples of democracy -- †three wolves and two sheep voting on whether or not to have mutton for dinner. †Another example is three rapists and two women voting on whether or not to rape the women.

Now, I will be the first to agree that democracy is a flawed concept of government given the examples I have just given, but where does Islam incorporate this concept?

Even if you go beyond the strict definition of democracy to the concept of self rule, there is nothing in Islam that promotes self rule. †The only law is the law of Allah, and that is tyrannical by its very nature.


So your opinion regarding islam and democracy is that because one cannot alter "gods" laws then the foundation of democracy is shaken to the core, ie. I would like to change the inheritance law, or prohibit totally to hit women, I would be altering "gods" law and therefore islam and democracy is not congruent, since democracy would leave the possibllity to alter laws open.

Cheers
kafir forever

Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.


Hi Kafir

Well because democracy lacks in the countries which we think of as islamic it does not necissarelly mean that democracy and islam is to opposing entities.


I did not say that the lack of democray in Islamic countries means that Islam and decomocracy are incompatible, or that democracy is desirable.


No, that was just an assumption on my side †Very Happy you comment was right in the tail on some comments on the matter.

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
I'm not here to defend (at first) any views of the matter. What I would like is to people to give their views on the matter and argue them with some fx textual or historical sources (does the quran prohibit elections for instans)

Cheers


Democracy does not mean elections, either. †Democracy means rule by the majority. †I will give you two very explicit examples of democracy -- †three wolves and two sheep voting on whether or not to have mutton for dinner. †Another example is three rapists and two women voting on whether or not to rape the women.

Now, I will be the first to agree that democracy is a flawed concept of government given the examples I have just given, but where does Islam incorporate this concept?

Even if you go beyond the strict definition of democracy to the concept of self rule, there is nothing in Islam that promotes self rule. †The only law is the law of Allah, and that is tyrannical by its very nature.


So your opinion regarding islam and democracy is that because one cannot alter "gods" laws then the foundation of democracy is shaken to the core, ie. I would like to change the inheritance law, or prohibit totally to hit women, I would be altering "gods" law and therefore islam and democracy is not congruent, since democracy would leave the possibllity to alter laws open.

Cheers


Of course, the concept of democracy introduces the possibility to alter God's law, assuming that God's law can be objectively determined, which it cannot

My opinion regarding Islam and Democracy is that the concepts are totally incompatible.  Islam is the tyrannical imposition of Mohammed's inventions of Allah, and Democracy is the tyrannical imposition of the majority at the expense of the minority.  To me, they are both reprehensible and mutally exclusive because the source of tyranny is different.
Tvebak

kafir forever wrote:

Of course, the concept of democracy introduces the possibility to alter God's law, assuming that God's law can be objectively determined, which it cannot

My opinion regarding Islam and Democracy is that the concepts are totally incompatible. †Islam is the tyrannical imposition of Mohammed's inventions of Allah, and Democracy is the tyrannical imposition of the majority at the expense of the minority. †To me, they are both reprehensible and mutally exclusive because the source of tyranny is different.


Hi Kafir

I'm not gonna start to go into a debate about "democracy" and "how it should be" right now, but I appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers

PS. I would still like to hear from anyone who disagrees with what has been said so far.
Tvebak

Hi Ahmed or BMZ

If you read this I would appreciate your input on the matter. I remember reading somewhere that Ahmed was an active democrat on the last election in Australia.

So how do you consider the relationship bewteen islam and democracy?

Cheers
AhmedBahgat

Tvebak wrote:
Hi Ahmed or BMZ

If you read this I would appreciate your input on the matter. I remember reading somewhere that Ahmed was an active democrat on the last election in Australia.

So how do you consider the relationship bewteen islam and democracy?

Cheers



Hello

I have taken note of it and will reply to it inshaalllah after I fisnish transferring my web site from the USA to Australia which I'm currntly doing for the last 48 hours and have about a week to go

Thanks
BMZ

Tvebak wrote:
Hi Ahmed or BMZ

If you read this I would appreciate your input on the matter. I remember reading somewhere that Ahmed was an active democrat on the last election in Australia.

So how do you consider the relationship bewteen islam and democracy?

Cheers


There has never been a relationship between any religion and democracy. The Bible is full of kings, killers and despots. The New Testament gave rise to despots such as the Church, Clergy and many kings, who slaughtered millions of people in the name of the Christian god. John, who wrote his gospel and Revelation junk and stuff, would have made a ruthless despot if he weren't too old. Christianity was itself rubber-stamped by an Emperor. Rotflmao!

Hitler was elected in a democracy. The so-called 'best' democracy US of A invaded Iraq based on treachery, deceit and lies.

The end of democracy will come at the hands of Jesus, who is supposed to come again as the King. †I am sure that would be the end of democracy. Can you imagine the West living under the rule of His Royal Highness Jesus or Imperial Majesty Jesus? How would the Democrats, Republicans and Armageddon-craving mad evangelists accept the rule of King Jesus? †

Has anyone noticed how undemocratic Jesus, Paul and others had been? †Laughing

Naa! I don't believe religions came to promote democracy. †Laughing

BMZ
Tvebak

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi Ahmed or BMZ

If you read this I would appreciate your input on the matter. I remember reading somewhere that Ahmed was an active democrat on the last election in Australia.

So how do you consider the relationship bewteen islam and democracy?

Cheers



Hello

I have taken note of it and will reply to it inshaalllah after I fisnish transferring my web site from the USA to Australia which I'm currntly doing for the last 48 hours and have about a week to go

Thanks


Hello

Take your time. I appreciate that you are gonna give your opinion on the matter.

Cheers
Tvebak

BMZ wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi Ahmed or BMZ

If you read this I would appreciate your input on the matter. I remember reading somewhere that Ahmed was an active democrat on the last election in Australia.

So how do you consider the relationship bewteen islam and democracy?

Cheers


There has never been a relationship between any religion and democracy. The Bible is full of kings, killers and despots. The New Testament gave rise to despots such as the Church, Clergy and many kings, who slaughtered millions of people in the name of the Christian god. John, who wrote his gospel and Revelation junk and stuff, would have made a ruthless despot if he weren't too old. Christianity was itself rubber-stamped by an Emperor. Rotflmao!

Hitler was elected in a democracy. The so-called 'best' democracy US of A invaded Iraq based on treachery, deceit and lies.

The end of democracy will come at the hands of Jesus, who is supposed to come again as the King. †I am sure that would be the end of democracy. Can you imagine the West living under the rule of His Royal Highness Jesus or Imperial Majesty Jesus? How would the Democrats, Republicans and Armageddon-craving mad evangelists accept the rule of King Jesus? †

Has anyone noticed how undemocratic Jesus, Paul and others had been? †Laughing

Naa! I don't believe religions came to promote democracy. †Laughing

BMZ


Hi BMZ

Please, please, please why do you have to discus christianity when the question is aimed at the relationship between islam and democracy? Don't you know your own religion? I have the impression that you have are fairly good knowledge about your own religion so that should be sufficient to argue from. You have a very bad habit at this BMZ. And I think you have been told what it's called.

So I will ignore almost your entire comment, besides this "Naa! I don't believe religions came to promote democracy". So you would consider that islam is indifferent towards democracy, neither for or against? Would you care to comment on what the for instans All_Brains had to say on the subject?

Cheers
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

In my early days I used to believe that Islam and Democracy could go together. But looking more and more into Islamís teachings you CANíT call the two ideologies compatible, simply because democracy makes Islam subservient to it. And in Islam godís will demands precedence over everything else. Even secularism takes a backseat to Islam.
BMZ

Tvebak wrote:
Hi BMZ

Please, please, please why do you have to discus christianity when the question is aimed at the relationship between islam and democracy? Don't you know your own religion? I have the impression that you have are fairly good knowledge about your own religion so that should be sufficient to argue from. You have a very bad habit at this BMZ. And I think you have been told what it's called.


Please, please, not that card again.  Laughing All_Brains is entitled to express his views and you just had mine. That is my style, you've got to live with it.

Now answer me! Which religion teaches democracy?  Laughing

Cheers

BMZ
AhmedBahgat

Salam All,

I would like to add my opinion in a quick comment as Iím really busy trying to rebuild my web site after my ISP screwed up, Iím transferring it currently to a new host in Australia however I diverted the traffic to my web server as it is much faster than my current ISP, a lot of work in the last 72 hours

This comment is not debatable, i.e. I wonít be dragged into any useless debate, simply the ones who disagree with it, just reject it

I believe 100% that the Quran supports democracy, however my understanding to democracy is not just removing any ruler with ease through elections, rather every aspect in running a country must be discussed with all political parties involved then making up the best decision based on all feedback, this is for me what defines democracy,  the elections in a democratic country is nothing but that, every person state his/her opinion then the majority prevails

The democracy definition can be simplified to, a group of people discussing an important issue then making up a decision based on the majority or the same opinion. The Quran dedicated a whole sura to such concept, the sura  is called Al Shura, i.e. the discussion between a group pf believers to reach a decision based on the majority of opinions, lets look at one verse from this sura that clearly describes what the believers should be:

The verses before and after the following verse are some descriptions of the true believers in Allah, let me catch the description in verse 42:38,

And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.

[The Quran ; 42:38]

وَالَّذِينَ اسْتَجَابُوا لِرَبِّهِمْ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَى بَيْنَهُمْ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (3Cool

-> The true believers are those who: And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, as well وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَى بَيْنَهُمْ , Wa Amrahum SHURA Bainahum, i.e. and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and that should be enough to define democracy for me, i.e. again: and their rule is to take counsel among themselves

Salam
Tvebak

BMZ wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi BMZ

Please, please, please why do you have to discus christianity when the question is aimed at the relationship between islam and democracy? Don't you know your own religion? I have the impression that you have are fairly good knowledge about your own religion so that should be sufficient to argue from. You have a very bad habit at this BMZ. And I think you have been told what it's called.


Please, please, not that card again. †Laughing All_Brains is entitled to express his views and you just had mine. That is my style, you've got to live with it.

Now answer me! Which religion teaches democracy? †Laughing

Cheers

BMZ


None in my opinion! You would have known that if you had read this very short thread through. And democracy, just as all religions, are made by us humans.
Please stay on subject and start a "christianity and democracy" where it belongs if you want to discuss that subject.
Is it that hard to discuss islam? I know I asked you to contribute, but I had expected something that had something to do with islam and not christianity.

Do you have anything regarding islam?

Cheers
Tvebak

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,

I would like to add my opinion in a quick comment as Iím really busy trying to rebuild my web site after my ISP screwed up, Iím transferring it currently to a new host in Australia however I diverted the traffic to my web server as it is much faster than my current ISP, a lot of work in the last 72 hours

This comment is not debatable, i.e. I wonít be dragged into any useless debate, simply the ones who disagree with it, just reject it

I believe 100% that the Quran supports democracy, however my understanding to democracy is not just removing any ruler with ease through elections, rather every aspect in running a country must be discussed with all political parties involved then making up the best decision based on all feedback, this is for me what defines democracy, †the elections in a democratic country is nothing but that, every person state his/her opinion then the majority prevails

The democracy definition can be simplified to, a group of people discussing an important issue then making up a decision based on the majority or the same opinion. The Quran dedicated a whole sura to such concept, the sura †is called Al Shura, i.e. the discussion between a group pf believers to reach a decision based on the majority of opinions, lets look at one verse from this sura that clearly describes what the believers should be:

The verses before and after the following verse are some descriptions of the true believers in Allah, let me catch the description in verse 42:38,

And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.

[The Quran ; 42:38]

وَالَّذِينَ اسْتَجَابُوا لِرَبِّهِمْ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَى بَيْنَهُمْ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (3Cool

-> The true believers are those who: And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, as well وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَى بَيْنَهُمْ , Wa Amrahum SHURA Bainahum, i.e. and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and that should be enough to define democracy for me, i.e. again: and their rule is to take counsel among themselves

Salam


Hello Ahmed

Thank you for your contribution. Even though you will not participate in debate regarding your opinion about the value of the verse I will still post my opinion on it. Later. And other should feel free to have their say on the matter.

Cheers
BMZ

AhmedBahgat wrote:
This comment is not debatable, i.e. I wonít be dragged into any useless debate, simply the ones who disagree with it, just reject it.


Salaams, Ahmed

It is good you wrote that.  

Cheers, mate
BMZ
Mutley

BMZ wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi BMZ

Please, please, please why do you have to discus christianity when the question is aimed at the relationship between islam and democracy? Don't you know your own religion? I have the impression that you have are fairly good knowledge about your own religion so that should be sufficient to argue from. You have a very bad habit at this BMZ. And I think you have been told what it's called.


[i]Please, please, not that card again.  Laughing All_Brains is entitled to express his views and you just had mine. That is my style, you've got to live with it.


Oh, so when we show you that your "style" is retarded, you tell us that we have to live with that fact. "I'm stupid, so you're just going to have to live with that fact"  Laughing   Laughing   Laughing
Mutley

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,

I would like to add my opinion in a quick comment as Iím really busy trying to rebuild my web site after my ISP screwed up, Iím transferring it currently to a new host in Australia however I diverted the traffic to my web server as it is much faster than my current ISP, a lot of work in the last 72 hours

This comment is not debatable, i.e. I wonít be dragged into any useless debate, simply the ones who disagree with it, just reject it

I believe 100% that the Quran supports democracy, however my understanding to democracy is not just removing any ruler with ease through elections, rather every aspect in running a country must be discussed with all political parties involved then making up the best decision based on all feedback, this is for me what defines democracy,  the elections in a democratic country is nothing but that, every person state his/her opinion then the majority prevails

The democracy definition can be simplified to, a group of people discussing an important issue then making up a decision based on the majority or the same opinion. The Quran dedicated a whole sura to such concept, the sura  is called Al Shura, i.e. the discussion between a group pf believers to reach a decision based on the majority of opinions, lets look at one verse from this sura that clearly describes what the believers should be:

The verses before and after the following verse are some descriptions of the true believers in Allah, let me catch the description in verse 42:38,

And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.

[The Quran ; 42:38]

وَالَّذِينَ اسْتَجَابُوا لِرَبِّهِمْ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَى بَيْنَهُمْ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ (3Cool

-> The true believers are those who: And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, as well وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَى بَيْنَهُمْ , Wa Amrahum SHURA Bainahum, i.e. and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and that should be enough to define democracy for me, i.e. again: and their rule is to take counsel among themselves

Salam


The entire purpose of a democracy is to allow the people to be able to remove their leaders if they so choose. THAT'S what it's really about.
Mutley

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
In my early days I used to believe that Islam and Democracy could go together. But looking more and more into Islamís teachings you CANíT call the two ideologies compatible, simply because democracy makes Islam subservient to it. And in Islam godís will demands precedence over everything else. Even secularism takes a backseat to Islam.


This is exactly correct. Or, to be even more specific, Islam is about the will of Allah, Democracy is about the will of the people. Democracy can co-exist quite nicely with Judaism and Christianity because neither is an expressly political religion. In fact Jesus even said give to Caesar what is his and give to God what is his.

However, Islam, by it's very nature, is political, and any Muslim will tell you this. Therefore, it cannot co-exist with Democracy. Actually, to make things even more specific, Democracy can co-exist with Islam, as per the case of Turkey's Islamic party, but Islam cannot co-exist with Democracy. It does not allow the people the power to remove the Caliph if they so desire strongly enough. I'm not even sure that it would allow freedom of speech, the right for one to voice their displeasure through protests and fair elections. So Democracy allows Islam to flourish, as in the example of Britain and the US, but Islam most certainly would never allow for Democracy to flourish.

And this highlights the truly despicable part about what Muslims are attempting to do. They use the fairness provided by Democracy in order to attempt to destroy it. You give them something fair, and they merely use it as a weakness. That's a lowly little weasel rat move. And they're actually proud of this. That's the even more amazing part. They consider it being proficient and clever at deception against the kafir, never considering once, the horrible sense of character and integrity that it shows about them.
MrInquisitive

Authority...

Islam is authoritarian.

Democracy has no room in this context.

Democracy is about developing individual constituents.

Islam is about maintaining a commitment to the "many".

It begins with the authoritarian perspective that demands - with authority - a strict adherence to the "cause" or else...

Am I in the ball park, here?



Embarassed
MrInquisitive

Idioms...

Well, Dear mutley,

..."And this highlights the truly despicable part about what Muslims are attempting to do. They use the fairness provided by Democracy in order to attempt to destroy it. You give them something fair, and they merely use it as a weakness. That's a lowly little weasel rat move. And they're actually proud of this. That's the even more amazing part. They consider it being proficient and clever at deception against the kafir, never considering once, the horrible sense of character and integrity that it shows about them."...

In plain English, this is called: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"...

Wink
David

islam is directly against democracy
Tvebak

The quote Ahmed takes to argue that islam and democracy is compatible is in my opinion expressing the oppossite. It's rather giving the possibility of a theocratic democracy, ie. the ones making a mutual consultation have to be believers. They have to "keep up prayer".

This is not democracy.

Cheers
HomoErectus

Well, in an "islamic democracy" you'd have the right to vote YES !

voting NO is ILLEGAL, and will be seen as apostacy - death penalty !

NOT VOTING will be seen as questioning islam, you will be given a chance to repent, and then - vote YES !

on a serious level, since the quran regulates all aspects of life - what matters would an "islamic parliament" decide upon ?


.
MrInquisitive

Islam: A democracy???

Shocked

That'll be the day.

Simply put: Islam is a dictatorship.

Like any dictatorship, the penalty for "straying" is death!

Twisted Evil

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