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brainout

Koran or Bible, which is superior?

I started this thread in FFI, but everyone there only wanted to joke around. Seems to me that Bible and Koran ought to be in a head-to-head comparison, leaving out the question of how we their believers, use (and abuse) these books. In what follows, if you think the Koran is misrepresented, pm me and I'll add what you think valid in this beginning post. I had to use Pickthall's translation of Koran to get the information I put there. In English, the character of "Allah" does not come off well. So it would be nice if you could provide me with a sampling of ayahs which refute the English depiction. Just the citations will suffice, as the reader can then look them up in whatever translation he has (and preferably, he reads Koran in Arabic).

I've not finished investigating the Koran for its claim of Divine Authenticity, so I appreciate your help. I do NOT believe in anything in the hadiths, so if you want to use hadith material, make it part of a post you add yourself in here.

If you are a Christian and you want something else said about the Bible in this beginning post, pm me also, but since I can back up this post's statements about Bible with Bible verses I've examined in the Hebrew and Greek for years, you'll first have to convince me where I erred. Of course, you can instead post your own refutations here in your own posts. We all need to look at the BOOK, not at each other.

Ok, here's what I posted at FFI, in: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=1017527

brainout wrote:
I'm starting this thread because I didn't see any like it in the many pages of this forum's topics. I hope it is as unique as it seems.

When you go to buy one car or house versus another, some things are not matters of personal taste. One car is safer than another to drive. One gets more gas mileage. One has lower insurance rates, because it's easier to repair. Etc.

Not all faiths are equal in what they provide if you adhere to them. So let's compare what Koran versus Bible, provide. It makes sense that "God" would provide a superior faith, verses an impostor pretending to be God. So let's see if that's true...

I'll keep it to a simple comparison, without verses, since of course that comes later. I realize some of the wording in here will be controversial. That's intended, to stimulate discussion and debate. I can back up the claims with verses. However, if something in this first post is deemed inaccurate or too biased for good discussion, please pm me and, I'll edit the text. But if it's a difference in interpretation and more than one person agrees with that difference, then the text should be debated in subsequent posts, as the debate would prove useful. Here goes:

CHARACTER OF GOD DEPICTED. This matters the most, for it determines whether you even want to be with the "God" depicted.
Quote:
Koran depicts Allah as a God who is capricious (maybe he changes his mind), boastful, raving (incoherent), vindictive (constantly threatening), and by the way, you don't get to be with him if you are his slave (more on that in "The Hereafter" section below).
Quote:
Bible depicts God as Absolute, Never-Changing, Infinite Truth, Love, Righteousness, Justice, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omniscient, and salvific, holding always to His Word above His Name. Any punishment is always explained in advance (i.e., so you can avoid it) and always forgivable (when you don't). You have to reject Him for Him to stand off, but He never really leaves.


HOW SIN GETS PAID.
Quote:
Koran provides no payment to Allah. Your good deeds balance against your bad deeds.
Quote:
Bible provides that Christ paid GOD directly for all sin. So no deeds you do are good enough, so they are not counted toward payment, since it was already made. That's why you have to believe in Christ to be saved, because you can't be good enough for God on your own.
In both you would also have natural consequences from your actions; for example, if I stabbed myself, I would be hurt, irrespective of whether that was a sin or not.

HOW YOU GET SAVED.
Quote:
Koran requires you continually believe in Allah alone, ascribing no "partners" to Him, and sometimes that you must pray and give alms.
Quote:
Bible requires only that you ONCE believe Jesus the Christ paid for your sins. You can't lose salvation, and no works are possible or required.


PUNISHMENT IF YOU ARE NOT SAVED.
Quote:
Koran requires you go to hell.
Quote:
So does Bible.
It's not clear in either book whether you must stay there forever, if you can "believe" and get out once you get there. Both are clear that it's hot and there is lots of suffering. Bible adds that after eternity begins, a new separate 'hell' universe is created.

THE HEREAFTER.
Quote:
Koran promises an eternity UNDER the earth with people and food, comfort (leaving out the lurid stuff claimed in some ayahs and hadiths).
Quote:
Bible promises an eternity in the very presence of God, in a new universe, as Royalty, ruling with Jesus the Christ.


CHANGE IN NATURE.
Quote:
Koran promises you won't age and you'll be forever healthy and young (again, leaving out the lurid ayahs and hadiths).
Quote:
Bible promises you acquire some of God's Very Own Attributes and then a new spiritual body to go with them, so you can be on God's Own level, like Christ Himself, ruling forever.


LIFE AS A BELIEVER WHILE STILL DOWN HERE.
Quote:
Koran requires you pray five times a day chanting it, that you observe certain food and day taboos, give alms, make the hajj (if you can afford it), treat other Muslims well.
Quote:
Bible requires that you learn it, and you make all the rules yourself from what you learn, because you are in training to become a King (which if you refuse, you will just have a lower rank). You are a Royal Priest to God per the Bible, no matter what, and what rules you adopt to be that Royal Priest before Father, are yours alone to determine based on the Bible.


THE SPIRITUAL LIFE, ITSELF.
Quote:
Koran doesn't state this, or I can't find its structure: someone help me edit for this. You must learn and live on Koranic principles, however.
Quote:
Bible prescribes that with regular usage of 1Jn1:9, you are in a functioning spiritual state with direct teaching and empowerment plus intimacy with the Holy Spirit. That even in a state of sin, you are indwelt by Father Son and Holy Spirit, so have an intimate spiritual relationship. You must learn and live on Bible, to mature in it.


RELATIONSHIP OF RELIGION TO SECULAR LIFE.
Quote:
Koran prescribes a state be governed by its rules, not merely a religion. Of course, the Muslim who does not reside in such a state is therefore less obedient than one who does. Non-Muslim states, as well as non-Muslims, are not to be trusted and (in certain ways) should be considered enemies.

Quote:
Bible prescribes a wholly internal spiritual life, and it has no relationship to the state whatsoever. Because, you are in training before God. If states choose to adopt some of the Bible's rules, that is their sovereign prerogative. There is no such thing as a Christian nation, but wherever Christians reside in a nation, the nation is blessed by their mere presence.
Baal

Muslims are trained to defend their religion by attacking other religion and cultures. Unless I am a devout Christian trying to preach to people to enter Christianity, why would I care how correct the Bible is relative to the koran. Let both books burn and if they have a god protecting them let him show himself.

I do not mean to discourage you from the comparison, I think it is important and useful, but do not mind when some critics of islam choose not to rely on your method.
brainout

Hey, blessed Baal.  Actually, I just wanted to post the topic.  I think the comparison is needed so one can dispassionately evaluate between the two books.  I don't expect to change anyone's mind, and I'm not saying my comparison is the only one to make, or even the right one to make, for someone else.  Obviously I'm expressing my own present convictions in the comparison, to write it up.

The larger issue is methodology.  If thing "A" is better than thing "B", there should be a method to evaluate that superiority.  Granted, other people would pick other variables than the ones I do, i.e., character of God, the nature of the hereafter, what one does to be saved, etc.  

But one should select variables to compare, and then one should do that comparison.  Belief in God should not be based on whether your peers, family, tribe, or nation also share them.  God is Vertical (presuming God exists), not horizontal.  People are horizontal.  So evaluation of God and the books He allegedly wrote, should be made on a vertical basis, that is, apart from all the other loyalties in life.

That Muslims don't do this comparison, well -- that's their free prerogative.  However, they do not have the right to prosyletize with violence, even as I don't have it.  Best to let God do a vertical prosyletizing as one examines books claimed to be authored by Him.

A thinking Muslim who reads threads like this one, will understand the desecration of the Qu'ran which results from those other Muslims who advocate immoral methods.  A thinking Christian who reads threads like this one, will recognize he needs to start learning his Bible better, so he can compose a better response.  For surely if God is the God of the Bible, he'll put the thinking Muslim and the thinking Christian, together. Smile

The violent ones are beyond human hope.  One prays for them.  No civil discourse with them is possible, and instead states faced with such violent persons must use every means available to extirpate them.  You cannot have a productive conversation with a human cockroach.  These are Sennacharib's children, so must be dealt with in the same manner (see Isaiah 35 and following on Sennacharib, if interested).
BMZ

Baal wrote:
Muslims are trained to defend their religion by attacking other religion and cultures. Unless I am a devout Christian trying to preach to people to enter Christianity, why would I care how correct the Bible is relative to the koran. Let both books burn and if they have a god protecting them let him show himself.

I do not mean to discourage you from the comparison, I think it is important and useful, but do not mind when some critics of islam choose not to rely on your method.


Rotflmao, Baal. Look at the OP and tell me who is trained to defend his religion by attacking other religion? And how were you trained, Baal?  Laughing

If you want to do a test by burning then you just burn the New Testament and see if a page is left.  Laughing
Intellectual_fighter

Salams and greetings to all,

I think The Glorious Quran is far more superior than the Bible.


The first and foremost criterion is that There is not a single unrefutable contradiction in the Glorious Quran, comparing bibles many.

Second, there is not a single scientific error in the Glorious Quran  comparing many in Bible that are unferutable.


Another significant criterion is that Bible has many versions while the Glorious Quran is in only one form.


........................................................

So, the Glorious Quran is certainly far superior to Bible.



Peace.
HomoErectus

You always seem to need one fairy tale to confirm your other one.....
How can you take allegations and fables as a base to justify your other fables and fairy tales ?

What about all the contradictions, errors, and fallacies in the quran ?

Is your alleged "god" NOT perfect ?

Then, why the nonsense in this socalled "holy book" ?

Aaah, I know "allah is the best deceiver !" Very Happy
Intellectual_fighter

HomoErectus wrote:
You always seem to need one fairy tale to confirm your other one.....
How can you take allegations and fables as a base to justify your other fables and fairy tales ?


Very Critical questions!! Laughing , Nothing is need to prove the truth of the Glorious Quran. But you see, what an wonder for you people. even Hindu books talk about the great prophet!

What a shame! or ?? for whom!

The truth of Islam cant be avoided! You know



HomoErectus wrote:
What about all the contradictions, errors, and fallacies in the quran ?

Is your alleged "god" NOT perfect ?


Contradiction is the Glorious Quran.!!!!! Embarassed , Dont tell me that bro! Everything has been refuted so well that I wonder still people ask !!

Errors!! ,,Agian! same

Fallacies!!!! Dont mingle the Glorious Quran with Bible!!

Go for a comparatioce study to find the superior one as this thread is belongs to that.



HomoErectus wrote:
Then, why the nonsense in this socalled "holy book" ?


Huh!!,,,,Not only holy , you missed another, the impeccable and infallible too.




HomoErectus wrote:
Aaah, I know "allah is the best deceiver !" Very Happy


opps!! Ali Sina and co!! Laughing
HomoErectus

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
You always seem to need one fairy tale to confirm your other one.....
How can you take allegations and fables as a base to justify your other fables and fairy tales ?


Very Critical questions!! Laughing



The "lol" speaks volumes... lol !


Quote:
Nothing is need to prove the truth of the Glorious Quran. But you see, what an wonder for you people. even Hindu books talk about the great prophet!



You literally have NOTHIG to prove your oh-so-holy hypocritical quran.

I f you think you have something, come bring it up....
I'll meanwhile have a beer, if you don't mind?

Quote:

What a shame! or ?? for whom!



First look into the next available mirror.... its you !
And in the next line, in the shadows of your brainwashing, blame Mo the paedophile epileptic, and his bandits!

Quote:

The truth of Islam cant be avoided! You know



There is no truth in Islam.
All just a hoax to have control over you, and it does have control over you, you are a slave !
What a pity... or maybe not ?


Quote:
C
ontradiction is the Glorious Quran.!!!!! Embarassed , Dont tell me that bro! Everything has been refuted so well that I wonder still people ask !!



Nothing has been refuted.
Just claims on your side, no truth, no proof, no logic, no nothing.
Live with that.

Quote:

Errors!! ,,Agian! same



right.
The quran is full of irrefutable and undoubtable errors !


Quote:

Fallacies!!!! Dont mingle the Glorious Quran with Bible!!



I'm no christian, and I don't really care what another fable says, its irrelevant !

And....
The quran is one big fallacy and Islam is a hoax.
Prove me wrong !


Quote:

Go for a comparatioce study to find the superior one as this thread is belongs to that.



The quran is superior only in the crimes which are being commited in its name !


Quote:

Huh!!,,,,Not only holy , you missed another, the impeccable and infallible too.



Holy MOley...
How deluded can you get ?


Quote:

opps!! Ali Sina and co!! Laughing



Did you, or anybody else yet make it to refute him ?

Whats wrong with Ali Sina - his saying the truth about Ill-slam ?
Intellectual_fighter

HomoErectus wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
You always seem to need one fairy tale to confirm your other one.....
How can you take allegations and fables as a base to justify your other fables and fairy tales ?


Very Critical questions!! Laughing



The "lol" speaks volumes... lol !


Does make sense!!





 
HomoErectus wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
Nothing is need to prove the truth of the Glorious Quran. But you see, what an wonder for you people. even Hindu books talk about the great prophet!



You literally have NOTHIG to prove your oh-so-holy hypocritical quran.

I f you think you have something, come bring it up....
I'll meanwhile have a beer, if you don't mind?



Woo! nothing! thats a lot.


Anywayz, dont beat in the bush.

We have everything, what you dont like , come up with and lets find.






HomoErectus wrote:
First look into the next available mirror.... its you !
And in the next line, in the shadows of your brainwashing, blame Mo the paedophile epileptic, and his bandits!


Will you allow me to laugh some times. Excuse me! need some laugh!





 
HomoErectus wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
The truth of Islam cant be avoided! You know



There is no truth in Islam.
All just a hoax to have control over you, and it does have control over you, you are a slave !
What a pity... or maybe not ?

Oops. Really, a hoax over me for these many years! oh sad! but not for me but for Islam Haters. Sorry though! If I hurt you.

And slaves! Its been far more better to be a slaves of Almighty rather becoming slaves of Satan. Which one you would choose!








HomoErectus wrote:

 Nothing has been refuted.
Just claims on your side, no truth, no proof, no logic, no nothing.
Live with that.


tno proof! no logic! huh!! come up with logics ,lets find. Dont twist!





HomoErectus wrote:
The quran is full of irrefutable and undoubtable errors !



You might be hypnotized@! beacuse, no person without being hypnotized could say that.







HomoErectus wrote:

I'm no christian, and I don't really care what another fable says, its irrelevant !

And....
The quran is one big fallacy and Islam is a hoax.
Prove me wrong !


Well,lets spare Bible! some man made and abroagated writiings. It has lost all its credibility.

Anywayz,

The Glorious Quran is truth and Islam is the religion of Almighty. prove me wrong!







HomoErectus wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:

opps!! Ali Sina and co!! Laughing



Did you, or anybody else yet make it to refute him ?

Whats wrong with Ali Sina - his saying the truth about Ill-slam ?


Ask Sina

Hez saying certainly saying truth that is of himself!  I heard a perosn who was knew a lot and after few years he became a mad-man. I aint sure about Ali Sina's mental condition though. Plz meet him/her! and then inform me.  I will be highly greatful to you!
Thanks in advance.
Intellectual_fighter

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
You always seem to need one fairy tale to confirm your other one.....
How can you take allegations and fables as a base to justify your other fables and fairy tales ?


Very Critical questions!! Laughing



The "lol" speaks volumes... lol !


Does make sense!!





 
HomoErectus wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
Nothing is need to prove the truth of the Glorious Quran. But you see, what an wonder for you people. even Hindu books talk about the great prophet!



You literally have NOTHIG to prove your oh-so-holy hypocritical quran.

I f you think you have something, come bring it up....
I'll meanwhile have a beer, if you don't mind?



Woo! nothing! thats a lot.


Anywayz, dont beat in the bush.

We have everything, what you dont like , come up with and lets find.






HomoErectus wrote:
First look into the next available mirror.... its you !
And in the next line, in the shadows of your brainwashing, blame Mo the paedophile epileptic, and his bandits!


Will you allow me to laugh some times. Excuse me! need some laugh!





 
HomoErectus wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
The truth of Islam cant be avoided! You know



There is no truth in Islam.
All just a hoax to have control over you, and it does have control over you, you are a slave !
What a pity... or maybe not ?

Oops. Really, a hoax over me for these many years! oh sad! but not for me but for Islam Haters. Sorry though! If I hurt you.

And slaves! Its been far more better to be a slaves of Almighty rather becoming slaves of Satan. Which one you would choose!








HomoErectus wrote:

 Nothing has been refuted.
Just claims on your side, no truth, no proof, no logic, no nothing.
Live with that.


tno proof! no logic! huh!! come up with logics ,lets find. Dont twist!





HomoErectus wrote:
The quran is full of irrefutable and undoubtable errors !



You might be hypnotized@! beacuse, no person without being hypnotized could say that.







HomoErectus wrote:

I'm no christian, and I don't really care what another fable says, its irrelevant !

And....
The quran is one big fallacy and Islam is a hoax.
Prove me wrong !


Well,lets spare Bible! some man made and abroagated writiings. It has lost all its credibility.

Anywayz,

The Glorious Quran is truth and Islam is the religion of Almighty. prove me wrong!







HomoErectus wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:

opps!! Ali Sina and co!! Laughing



Did you, or anybody else yet make it to refute him ?

Whats wrong with Ali Sina - his saying the truth about Ill-slam ?


Ask Sina

Hez  certainly saying truth that is of himself that he does twist a lot !  I heard a perosn who   knew a lot and after few years he became a mad-man. I aint sure about Ali Sina's mental condition though. Plz meet him/her! and then inform me.  I will be highly greatful to you!
Thanks in advance.
HomoErectus

So...
What was it you are desperately trying to say ?
Intellectual_fighter

HomoErectus wrote:
So...
What was it you are desperately trying to say ?




The Glorious Quran is the truth and it is infallible and impeccable.


Prove me wrong!, or take the truth if you cant!
All_Brains

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
So...
What was it you are desperately trying to say ?




The Glorious Quran is the truth and it is infallible and impeccable.


Prove me wrong!, or take the truth if you cant!


I can prove you wrong. Would you like to try it out?
Intellectual_fighter

All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
So...
What was it you are desperately trying to say ?




The Glorious Quran is the truth and it is infallible and impeccable.


Prove me wrong!, or take the truth if you cant!


I can prove you wrong. Would you like to try it out?



Its a pleasure from my side!

Cool
HomoErectus

Intellectual_fighter wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Intellectual_fighter wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
So...
What was it you are desperately trying to say ?




The Glorious Quran is the truth and it is infallible and impeccable.


Prove me wrong!, or take the truth if you cant!


I can prove you wrong. Would you like to try it out?



Its a pleasure from my side!

Cool



Get ready for a whipping !
Better warn your behind of the upcoming experience !
brainout

What I'd really like to see here is a spreadsheet or chart which lists the kinds of provisions I posed in the Pub to Cosmic Dancer's thread on being tired of the polemics.  I've reproduced that, below.

A head-to-head comparison of the provisions in one holy book or another.  Let each side compose its own idea of what those provisions ARE, with their own idea of what the verses are to support that.

Then a reader can COMPARE the two.  I've not found such a thing anywhere on the internet, so wouldn't this be a good place to make one?

My attempt to do it here would obviously be revised in favor of a more dispassionate one.  I was new to forums back then, when I started the thread.  Would welcome an improved version by anyone willing to start it.

A REAL head-to-head comparison.  Not, a polemic rah-rah thing like you see in this and the FFI threads.

To wit:

brainout wrote:
When you go to buy a computer or a car, you want to look at many different types and compare their FEATURES.  You must do this in order to decide what's right for you.  How much more then, do we need a comparison listing of features for faith, on which we are basing our entire lives?  Yet this doesn't happen.  Instead we believe or disbelieve because of upbringing, someone close we love, our emotions, opinions, etc.  We are not dispassionate about our faith.  But seems as though dispassionate thinking is most important, when it comes to deciding what's the truth we'll live by.


So: I want to create a comparison SPREADSHEET of four faiths.  A snippet idea of it might look like this.  Bear in mind I'm listing broad categories here, but the actual spreadsheet would be more specific (but not too specific).

FEATURE ---------------------- Judaism --------------------- Christianity --------------------------- Islam ------------ Atheism

(Holy) Books used..............................................................66-book Bible
Nature of God....................................................................Jn1,4:11...
Nature of afterlife................................Matt22:30, Mk12:25, Luk20:35,1Cor15,Rev20,
Nature of spiritual life.........................................................Eph4:11-16,Phili2:5-10
Salvation, how procured....................................................John 3:16
Salvation, how lost (if applic.)............................................not applic.
Afterlife, if NOT of that faith................................................Rev20:11-15
Moral Code.........................................................................Jas2:8
Criminality defined..............................................................Rom13
Criminality penalties...........................................................Rom13
Civil law defined..................................................................Rom13
Civil law penalties...............................................................Rom13
Treatment of fellow believers.............................................1Cor12
Treatment of unbelievers....................................................Jas2:8
Treatment of women...........................................................Gal 3, Eph5, 6
Inheritance Rights...............................................................no set rules
etc.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, here's the NOVEL thing:  each 'faith' will answer its own category, and provide VERSES or other material from the holy books.  No rebutting.  So Jews would fill in the "Judaism" column, not anyone else.  Muslims would fill in the "Islam" columns, Christians would fill in their columns, atheists would fill in their columns (with their ideas, I guess, or quotes from philosophers), etc.  I did a fake fill-in for the Christian column (with at least one passage on the topic) so you can see more of what I mean.  

In reality there would be many subcategories under each rubric, since (for example) the Nature of God is very different from faith to faith, even though generally speaking all four would define "God" as an Infinite Perfection to qualify as "God".  You'd have differences in number, in attributes, in definitions of the attributes themselves (i.e., not all Jews consider God to be all-knowing).  Trick is to define the categories which all the faiths say 'something' about.

Moreover, I figure there would be several columns for each of the four faiths, since there are major 'denominational' type differences within each faith (i.e., in Judaism you have kabbalah, reform, orthodox, conservative;  in Islam you have sufi, sunni, shi'a, and Christianity has at least 20 major denominational sects).  I don't know that we'd want to have more than three subsects within each faith.  We have to keep the comparison chart somewhat simple.

Notice, though, it's now a collaborative thing:  no polemics, no arguing with each other.  We each do 'our' faith.  So then we each are satisfied that we got the opportunity to present the 'right' information, so all that arguing over "oh, you quoted thus-and-so OUT OF CONTEXT", etc. -- is avoided.

That way a reader could come to the forum and just COMPARE with actual substantiation provided by the proponents of each faith.  At that point, then any rebutting can occur in some other segment of the forum.

The trick is to first establish the CATEGORIES which would be in common to all four faiths.  (Atheism is a faith that God does not exist, hence it's necessarily classified here.)

From there, to do the very hard legwork of finding what would be the best verses in the holy books (or reasonings, philosophies, for atheists).  I would prefer merely citations, not quotes or explanations, so that we can cram as much data into each column as possible.

Again, we can debate the selections and superiority/inferiority in some other branch of this forum or another one.  But until we get a common LISTING of features, and a common LISTING of verses used to answer those features, we'll never get off the ground toward mutual understanding.

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