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cosmicdancer

Message from Youtuber

Hi Everyone,

I just got this message in my youtube account and don't have time to reply (or read it all lol):

But if anyone wants to reply - I will copy and paste it to the guy - thanks Smile

Hassan.

------------------------------------------

Heya!

Thanks for watching and leaving comment to my upload.

You say,why it is not clear...

The only thing I looked for in religions was the books.

If they had enough signs,showing divinity,it would be OK.

I will try to count what interesting I have found in 2 years,since I have first bought Quran.

1-In Quran,that Power,i mean "the Creator" is "speaking",
and it is perfect,I mean,in no verse it is understood that a human may have written it,a book from the "tongue" of the Creator and made no mistake about it.
The style of Quran doesn't remind of any book.It is SO different.Not a poem,not prosaic,but "something" different.
It is literarily excellent and inimitable for humans in many different ways.
Plus,it has a different soothing/relaxing influence on the people who listen to it.
You should listen to it from good reciters carefully to understand them easily Smile

2-Scientific informations,from under of the seas to the space,from big bang to big crunch,the "steps" of creation in the wombs,the barriers between seas,the movements of the Sun,Moon,Earth;fingerprints...and many many more are mentioned truly in Quran,14 centuries ago.Only for some of them:

www.quranmiracles.com

Important to note here,Quran is not a book of science,mostly the Creator points to the details in creation,to make people realize the Power better and those points bring these data about science.

3-Quran tells the stories of 1000-1500(2500-3000 from today) years before,about the things happened to the peoples of Messengers(of the Creator) who were disowned even were tried to be killed.

And nearly all of them were shown by historical searches and everything Quran says about them came out true,this website is good about this matter:

http://www.perishednations.com

4-Quran is really easy to memorize,i mean,VERY EASY.
Even a 10 year old child can memorize more than 600 pages,in a completely different language than he speaks,although he understands nothing from the things he read.

5-The mathematical miracles in lexical concordance,some words are repeated same times or the multiples of each other,making logical meanings and pointing to curious scientific data.
Watch my video about this matter,i put some of them only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1I1UI57uc

6-Not even one word was changed in Quran since it was first written.Copies from 8th centuries can be found in museums in Arabia,Turkey or Russia,as I know.

Interesting preservation,for many "generations" nobody added nor removed a word.

7-The style of Quran.As I said,"the Creator" is talking in Quran and makes the claims TOO self-assuredly,without any doubt,nor "what if".

The claims in Quran are like coming from a "so" genius,
knowing everything,
seeing all the time(past and future)perfectly,
flicking through the "pages of Universe" so easily
and always telling the truths.

8-The places of the words conform each other in an interesting way,I should make videos about it Smile

9-The code of 19.
I've made 40 videos about this.I really suggest you to watch some of them,especialy the 4th chapter,on my main page.

10-Quran also tells some things which would happen in the next years.You can find some of them (and the style Quran teaches people to improve science) in this link:

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/384/

11-NO contradiction,not even one!
Lots of different topics,but nothing contradicts with each other in 600+ pages.

12-Perfect Symmetry between the chapter numbers and verse numbers.

13-The dates of some important events in history are somehow coded in Quran(it has a main logic,not by random order of the words)

If u wonder the last two points,I will try to "go into deep" Wink

14-The amazingly perfect logic and wisdom in the Quran.

15-Quran mentions the speed of light.

http://www.speed-light.info


Here are some comments from various (mostly)nonMuslim scholars and scientists about Quran's literary excellence and "scientific" verses.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/perfection_02.html

Here is one of my favorite links for many more that even I dunno,yet Wink

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/

I dunno,if you were interested or not,but I just tried to explain what drew my attention about this book.
See,maybe,you will find some interesting things,too,if you wonder.

Thanks so much for reading.
I hope,I didn't bore you.
Hope to see you around.

Best regards!
Peace!
Tvebak

Hi Hassan

Is it by any chance a youtuber called "highflyingdutchman"?

Peace
cosmicdancer

Tvebak wrote:
Hi Hassan

Is it by any chance a youtuber called "highflyingdutchman"?

Peace


I just checked and it is indeed from "HighFlyingDutchman" - how did you know - is he sending lots of emails or something lol

I have told him I have posted his email here and can come here to find a response. (To be honest I just haven't got time for his waffle about Islam - I've heard it all before lol Very Happy)

Hassan Smile
Tvebak

Well here's my coments on it:

Quote:
1-In Quran,that Power,i mean "the Creator" is "speaking",
and it is perfect,I mean,in no verse it is understood that a human may have written it,a book from the "tongue" of the Creator and made no mistake about it.
The style of Quran doesn't remind of any book.It is SO different.Not a poem,not prosaic,but "something" different.
It is literarily excellent and inimitable for humans in many different ways.
Plus,it has a different soothing/relaxing influence on the people who listen to it.
You should listen to it from good reciters carefully to understand them easily  


I don't find the quran perfect. I find it very likely that the book is written by humans. I haven't found anything in it that could not have been written by humans. I think that the style in the quran reminds me of lot of other old religious books, fx the avesta, vedas etc. It's just another language. I don't find it soothing/relaxing to listen to. This is just my personal opinion. Hassan you should be more entitled to answer these statements.

Quote:
2-Scientific informations,from under of the seas to the space,from big bang to big crunch,the "steps" of creation in the wombs,the barriers between seas,the movements of the Sun,Moon,Earth;fingerprints...and many many more are mentioned truly in Quran,14 centuries ago.Only for some of them:

www.quranmiracles.com

Important to note here,Quran is not a book of science,mostly the Creator points to the details in creation,to make people realize the Power better and those points bring these data about science.


I don't have the time to go through every example, but I consider that the Quran contains wrong information or non information about those examples mentioned in the statement. There's no big bang in the Quran. Try just to consider those verses mentioned to "proof" the big bang (note that quranmiracles use a special distorted translation):

Quote:
21.30 Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then?


"an integrated mass" lol. Just look at it. Do you honestly, even considering the manipulation of the verse, think that the "big bang" is described in that verse? It's utterly absurd. The best article I've read on the topic is this one 10 Top-most Scientific Myths about the Qur'an

Quote:
25.53 He is the One who has set free the two seas; one is sweet and palatable, and the other is salty and bitter. And He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.


And about "the barriers between seas" it's just wrong. The quran talks about a barrier with no transgress. The kind of "barrier" the islamic miracle-searchers like to refer to is something which is scientific called something-line (fx haloc-line). And the central point to be said in this case is that there's constant trangress through this "barrier". Hence the quran is wrong. The "barrier" in real life is not "forbidden to pass". But of course what the quran is basicly refering to is the matter of the riverwater (sweat and palatable) meeting the seawater (salt and bitter). And the barrier was probably just an answer to why the riverwater keeps on being "sweet and palatable" and the seawater keeps on being salty. This of course resemble another lack in the quran; the lack of knowledge about the circulation of water (which they though argue is in the quran denying that the step where the water evaporate is of course completely missing).

Quote:
3-Quran tells the stories of 1000-1500(2500-3000 from today) years before,about the things happened to the peoples of Messengers(of the Creator) who were disowned even were tried to be killed.

And nearly all of them were shown by historical searches and everything Quran says about them came out true,this website is good about this matter:

http://www.perishednations.com


This is just silly. What is the miracle in that the quran is parotting some old tales, just the bible also do. You can find numeruos old sites where there used to be a city all over the middleeast and there was and is most likely a tale for almost every one of them. But I like the music, dramatic. That was the lut-story.
        The pharaoh-story: hmm the point which is probably the only thing which is interesting, is the part about the believers thinks that pharaoh is mentioned to be a sign, and this is interpreted that he was mummified or something, I don't know. Anyway people at that time knew plenty about the egyptian history, and certainly knew about the mummification of the previous kings. Actually several historians who lived in the antiquity and late antiquity wrote about it in what is known as the hellenistic world, ie most of the eastern Mediterranian area.
       And the Noah-story. Again this is just a reproduction of several old stories about floods, locally, regionally, globally. Wether the quran is refering to a local, regional or global can be discussed. But point is that there's no miracles.

Quote:
4-Quran is really easy to memorize,i mean,VERY EASY.
Even a 10 year old child can memorize more than 600 pages,in a completely different language than he speaks,although he understands nothing from the things he read.


This is just sad. That parents and adults are making their childrens memorize a book like that, even without knowing what it means. Absurd. But miracle, nah. Really don't need further comments.

Quote:
5-The mathematical miracles in lexical concordance,some words are repeated same times or the multiples of each other,making logical meanings and pointing to curious scientific data.
Watch my video about this matter,i put some of them only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1I1UI57uc


Hassan you have been over these ones with ibn ishaq. It's basicly the same cases about 365 day, 30 days, 12 month etc.

Quote:
6-Not even one word was changed in Quran since it was first written.Copies from 8th centuries can be found in museums in Arabia,Turkey or Russia,as I know.

Interesting preservation,for many "generations" nobody added nor removed a word.


Well this is to be questioned. Gerd R. Puin might shed some new light on this matter. His book is being released in august this year. It might be an translation from an earlier german edition; Maybe HomoErectus can tell us more about that?

http://www.allbookstores.com/book...Puin/Hidden_Origins_Of_Islam.html

But it is a disputed matter when the quran was fixed and made canonical. I've just started to read a book called "The Qur'an in its historical context", edited by Gabriel Said Reynolds, which is an academic book examing the latest studies about the origin of the quran. A little excerpt from the "Introduction", page 1, by Gabriel Said Reynolds.

Quote:
As I was Planning the April 2005 University of Notre Dame conference, "Towards a New Reading of the Qur'ran?" on which this book is based, a number of my colleagues told me that they were suspicious of the very idea of the "new readin" of the Qur'an. The reading of the Qur'an, that is the accuracy and meaning of the words (and not the interpretation thereof), seems sufficiently clear. No current edition of the Qur'an, for example, contains an aparatus criticus, a list of words that are different, missing or added in certain manuscripts. Meanwhile, the various edition of the Qur'an printed today (with only extra-ordinary exceptions) are identical, word for word, letter for letter. The Arabic text of the Qur'an, then, seems to be uniform and problem-free.
         Meanwhile, most English translations of the Qur'an give the impression that the meaning of the Qur'an is transparent. Rarely does a translator list variant  or confess that the sense of a passage is unclear. Why, then, should one consider a new reading of the Qur'an?
...
Page 2:
The common belief that the Qur'an has a single, unambiguos reading is due in part to the bravado of translators, who rarely express doubt about their choices. Yet it is above all due to the terrific success of the standard Egyptian edition of the Qur'an, first published on July 10, 1924 in Cairo, an edition now widely seen as the official text of the Qur'an.
...
Page3:
When the scholars in Cairo decided to fix a standard text according to Hafs 'an 'Asim, they still had to decide which reports of it to trust- Their project, then, invovolved comprehensive research of the classical qira'at works. In fact, they conducted this research with great thorouhgness and attention to detail, according to the observations of several western scholars. ...
            However, the Cairo text is often at odds with manuscript evidence. This is perhaps to be expected, given that the Cairo project was not about recovering a text as much as choosing a text.


I can try to make a resumé of the articles of the book, as I read them,  if you like Wink  .

Quote:
7-The style of Quran.As I said,"the Creator" is talking in Quran and makes the claims TOO self-assuredly,without any doubt,nor "what if".

The claims in Quran are like coming from a "so" genius,
knowing everything,
seeing all the time(past and future)perfectly,
flicking through the "pages of Universe" so easily
and always telling the truths.


erhm does this need to be commented?

Quote:
8-The places of the words conform each other in an interesting way,I should make videos about it  


hmm if it's the person I suspect it is he does not read arabic, yet.

Quote:
9-The code of 19.
I've made 40 videos about this.I really suggest you to watch some of them,especialy the 4th chapter,on my main page.


This sounds very much like HFD. If it's him this is with out doubt his favourite "miracle". I even refered him to Ahmed's refutation of the "code 19" on FFI. Don't know if he read it.

Quote:
10-Quran also tells some things which would happen in the next years.You can find some of them (and the style Quran teaches people to improve science) in this link:

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/384/


could not find the information he was talking about, so no comment. The article was about Muhammads time.

Quote:
11-NO contradiction,not even one!
Lots of different topics,but nothing contradicts with each other in 600+ pages.


I disagree. I find plenty of conflicting information in the quran fx in the different versions of the same story about Abraham, Moses etc.

Quote:
12-Perfect Symmetry between the chapter numbers and verse numbers.


were, how?

Quote:
13-The dates of some important events in history are somehow coded in Quran(it has a main logic,not by random order of the words)


nonsense. It's basicly like the "code 19" and the different "allah" written in fish miracles. You find a pattern where you want to find a pattern. You can find mathematical litterature on this matter in relation to the bible and for instans Nostradamus and all sort of things. It's just a matter of probability.

Quote:
14-The amazingly perfect logic and wisdom in the Quran.


Well I, funny enough, disagree. He only needs to state his opinion that the Quran is beautiful and well that is of course a subjective matter  Wink

Quote:
15-Quran mentions the speed of light.

http://www.speed-light.info


LOL this is one of the craziest attempt of finding "science" in the quran. It's really lovable and a perfect example on how the process of finding miracles in the quran is  Very Happy
Basicly it should not be commented, but consider this, first the verse from the site (note that this site are using a special distorted translation),

Quote:
[Quran 32.5] (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.


So basicly what they would like to say is that the distance in time from Earth to "Him" is a thousand years for angels and that this should be equal to the time of 12.000 lunarorbits around the earth (or it might seem that they are arguing that the angels a moving a "distance" of 1.000 years (= 12.000 lunarorbits) this is of course utterly manipulation of the verse). Lets just skip the calculation and argumentation of the article and jump to the result they present that the angels a traveling with lightspeed. Think about that if we then took it as a thousand years at lightspeed to reach "Him"/heaven or whatever, or just if it was a distance of 12.000 lunarorbits:

Quote:
The disk of the Milky Way galaxy is approximately 100,000 light years in diameter, and about 1,000 light years thick

Wiki on MilkyWay Galaxy

And this is just the Milkyway... sweet. Amazing eh? And some of the greatest parts is that this guy also argues that the angels a using wormholes to transport themselves. It's just marvelous.

An article on the matter by Richard Carrier: The Koran Predicted the Speed of Light? Not Really.

Quote:
Here are some comments from various (mostly)nonMuslim scholars and scientists about Quran's literary excellence and "scientific" verses.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/perfection_02.html

Here is one of my favorite links for many more that even I dunno,yet  

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/

I dunno,if you were interested or not,but I just tried to explain what drew my attention about this book.
See,maybe,you will find some interesting things,too,if you wonder.

Thanks so much for reading.
I hope,I didn't bore you.
Hope to see you around.

Best regards!
Peace!


I spend to much time on this now. Should have some work done. the 55a is basicly parotting what all the other miracle-sites says. Of course I do not know which of them who is first to create the "miracles". The comments from the different persons on the quran is old news, and much of it is taken out of context. That believer keep presenting them is probably just works to make believers feel good about there beilefs.

Cheers, peace and love

PS. Feel free to copy any of it Hassan, if you think its useful, but I have been over several of the topics with him before. I think he's a first class parot.

Edit: cleaning up small mistypings
Tvebak

cosmicdancer wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi Hassan

Is it by any chance a youtuber called "highflyingdutchman"?

Peace


I just checked and it is indeed from "HighFlyingDutchman" - how did you know - is he sending lots of emails or something lol

I have told him I have posted his email here and can come here to find a response. (To be honest I just haven't got time for his waffle about Islam - I've heard it all before lol Very Happy)

Hassan Smile


Hi Hassan

I thought so. I just tried to make respond for his comment and missed this comment. It seemed very much like him. I'm not quite sure why he's making this dawa constantly, maybe he feels he is bringing people to "god" or perhaps it makes him feel reassured in his belief. He also likes to link to videos about converts to islam. It seems that he feel proud about it. Quite funny and a bit sad  Very Happy . He has presented himself as a young person, I don't know how old, but I sincerely hope that he's not gonna sit infront of his computer all life "spreading the message". That would be a sad life in my opinion.

And yes I have the feeling that he's sending a lot of mails around. And I completely understand why you don't want to waste your time on it  Wink
lol

Peace
HFD

OK,dude,you need a reply Smile


First of all,I appreciate your try on being objective and getting as much info as you can

But if you look for something about Quran that you will be unable to "make the best of a bad bargain" or in other words,"skip out",(I mean by using an intentionally negative skeptic argument), you will never find it,becuase your free-will never be taken from your hand and you will never become have to accept the truth,there will ALWAYS be a way to run away.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
"The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split
If they see a Sign, they turn away and say,"Old magic."
They have rejected the truth and follow their own fancies.
But for everything there is an appointed time.
Sufficient warnings have been delivered to alert them.
Great wisdom; but all the warnings have been in vain.
Ignore them; the day will come when the caller will announce a terrible disaster.
With their eyes humiliated, they come out of the graves like scattered locusts.
As they respond to the caller, the disbelievers will say, "This is a difficult day."
Quran-54;Moon;1-8


As you see,the verses explain it well actually.When the miracle of splitting the moon in half happened,no one disowned it,but no one accepted the truth,either.They just called it magic.
When people who wanted this miracle from Muhammad asw asked people woh arrived there at the morning,they also said that they had seen the moon in half,so it made them(who wanted the miracle) say:"As it seems,his magic has reached the sky..."

No,don't believe that moon split in half,just realize the fact that,even something like this happened,you would have a chance to skip out,too.

Also you could say,"Coincidence,when Muhammad asw wanted to split it,moon was already up to split in half because of something happened in space,etc"

So you could say,"we can't be sure if he did it,or not"

You know this method,as i guess.

So,nothing will make you have to believe,nothing will end the test of using your mind in the objective and logical way.


After you learned it,i can start commetning on your "refutations" in this viewpoint.

I will not quote,i hope your mail will still stand up there Smile

(btw,Hassan asked,why God didn't make it clear that Islam is the true religion under my video,that's why i sent him the mail,i think he even didn't realize the connection between the video and my mail) (and 40 videos about 19 is enough for you to understand that it was me)

1)Really,if i could make you understand this point,i wouldn't write the other points,because it is the biggest miracle of Quran and lots of books have been written about it showing the inimitability.
Sure,I am talking about the originla Quran,and I speak Turkish and it has many similarities with Arabic,i also know Arabic words,and when I read a good translation at the same time i listen to Quran from a good reciter,i (nearly) completely understand it.(and i can read Arabic,lol)
About relaxing,a "scientific" test was done on nonMuslims,they listened to Quran and similar Arabic words,I was talking about its results Wink

2)Yeah,this one is the one that u can slope off well.Such as the 10 myths article,he always chooses the "best translations" for him,to deny the statements,i agree with the 10th point,about the "red star" and other ones Muslims try to make seem scientific,but he expoıses his great wish to ignore them,like the example of moon.Just in the link,70 infos are told ,maybe more than 50 impossible to have been known,but sure,who cares.By just telling a few words about barrierbetween seas and trying to understand it in the way you want,although it would be an imaginary claim for 7th century...


3)Yeah,something is silly here,but it is not the link,it is the commenter(U)
Actually there were only 3 as i remember in the link.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_index.html

I dunno how "cleverly" you will deny them to your conscience,this time.
I am not sure if you checked the EVIDENCE that around Noah's as peoples,there WAS a BIIG flood.


4)I think you should stay silent,if you are too ignorant about a point.And still you say,it is bad for parents to make children memorize it,blah blah.Who asked your opinion?Damn it is bad,if you think Quran is "man words".But DAMN IT IS NOT!

5)Yeah,some same cases about 365 days etc.So what?I remember u had said,
"Not 365,364,someone proved it,here is the link"
Is it your best method?Just like you would be affected if you saw that it is indeed 365...
Sure,when you see evidence,it turns into "coincidence" Such as the ones about the Chepter Bee,16,with 128 verses.Related to the chromosomes of bee. (yeah,"blah blah",u can laugh)

6)Great to expose yourself,how much you want to disown Quran and make your conscience "sure" about its "wrongness"

If you are really interested,read this(yea,buy it now!) and see how PROOF shuts the **** up the clowns.

http://islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html

7)Sure,no comments,with laughs.What did you understand from this?

8)Lol,i am HFD,indeed,but where did you get to the idea,i dunno reading Arabic?
From the 1369 in Moon chapter,the last Alif? I had read it,how did you "realize" i couldn't?!

9)I had told you,i agree with some of his arguments,but it is like saying,a child has 50 dollars and he is not rich.
So having money doesn't make people rich.
But someone else has 50 billion $ and he is damn rich,it means having money may make people rich.
I mean that some of 19 arguments are not so interesting,but some of them are damn interesting..

10)Look at the links below,then.

11)http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm

You will find many more "error claims"
If yours will stay as the last "barrier" between you and Quran,i will be glad to talk about them.

12)I've got a book just written on this matter,about 230 or 240 pages.
But I think best points of 19 are better,so first learn them.

13)nonsense.(my reply to yours Wink

14)Funny enough.("""""""""""""""""")

15)Interesting.The calculations do give the speed of light,but sure,you can say "that verse doesn't even talk about light"

sure,i dident claim its opposite.


55a is a good site  Wink


If i am a first class parrot,lol.

You are probably a first class

"What is then the matter with them, that they turn away from the admonition
As if they were affrighted asses,
Fleeing from a lion!"  

Quran 74(the HIDDEN SECRET),49-51
AhmedBahgat

I was surprised to see Harun Hahya embracing the code 19 crap, what a shocker, I used to respect the guy, that respect just went down the drain on the fly, see in this page:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html


that is total crap, let me see if any of the arabic talking kafirs can spot the mitsakes especially when the article counts the words in the suras, the mitakes are clear for a child, any taker from the kafirs to expose it?
Tvebak

HFD wrote:
OK,dude,you need a reply Smile


Hi HFD and welcome

Quote:
First of all,I appreciate your try on being objective and getting as much info as you can

But if you look for something about Quran that you will be unable to "make the best of a bad bargain" or in other words,"skip out",(I mean by using an intentionally negative skeptic argument), you will never find it,becuase your free-will never be taken from your hand and you will never become have to accept the truth,there will ALWAYS be a way to run away.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
"The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split
If they see a Sign, they turn away and say,"Old magic."
They have rejected the truth and follow their own fancies.
But for everything there is an appointed time.
Sufficient warnings have been delivered to alert them.
Great wisdom; but all the warnings have been in vain.
Ignore them; the day will come when the caller will announce a terrible disaster.
With their eyes humiliated, they come out of the graves like scattered locusts.
As they respond to the caller, the disbelievers will say, "This is a difficult day."
Quran-54;Moon;1-8


As you see,the verses explain it well actually.When the miracle of splitting the moon in half happened,no one disowned it,but no one accepted the truth,either.They just called it magic.
When people who wanted this miracle from Muhammad asw asked people woh arrived there at the morning,they also said that they had seen the moon in half,so it made them(who wanted the miracle) say:"As it seems,his magic has reached the sky..."

No,don't believe that moon split in half,just realize the fact that,even something like this happened,you would have a chance to skip out,too.

Also you could say,"Coincidence,when Muhammad asw wanted to split it,moon was already up to split in half because of something happened in space,etc"

So you could say,"we can't be sure if he did it,or not"

You know this method,as i guess.

So,nothing will make you have to believe,nothing will end the test of using your mind in the objective and logical way.


After you learned it,i can start commetning on your "refutations" in this viewpoint.


Sure "god" is making me continue disbelieving LOL! It's not a matter of going into the discrepancies of free-will and the all-knowing "god", but you know that "god" has put a veil over my heart lol.

Quote:
I will not quote,i hope your mail will still stand up there Smile

(btw,Hassan asked,why God didn't make it clear that Islam is the true religion under my video,that's why i sent him the mail,i think he even didn't realize the connection between the video and my mail) (and 40 videos about 19 is enough for you to understand that it was me)


I think he recognized it, but he have been over the issues before, as he stated above, and probably wants to do other things with his life now.

Quote:
1)Really,if i could make you understand this point,i wouldn't write the other points,because it is the biggest miracle of Quran and lots of books have been written about it showing the inimitability.
Sure,I am talking about the originla Quran,and I speak Turkish and it has many similarities with Arabic,i also know Arabic words,and when I read a good translation at the same time i listen to Quran from a good reciter,i (nearly) completely understand it.(and i can read Arabic,lol)
About relaxing,a "scientific" test was done on nonMuslims,they listened to Quran and similar Arabic words,I was talking about its results Wink


Really, if I could make you understand this point then you would understand this point! It's a subjective opinion. Some people find it beautiful, others hideous, or just utterly boring etc. It's very simple HFD that people can have different opinions about the lyrics of a text or about the sound of music (/recitation). Personally I just find the book utterly boring and I do not like the recitations either. There's a lot of music some people find "soothing" which others would go beserk over. A subjective matter!!

Quote:
2)Yeah,this one is the one that u can slope off well.Such as the 10 myths article,he always chooses the "best translations" for him,to deny the statements,i agree with the 10th point,about the "red star" and other ones Muslims try to make seem scientific,but he expoıses his great wish to ignore them,like the example of moon.Just in the link,70 infos are told ,maybe more than 50 impossible to have been known,but sure,who cares.By just telling a few words about barrierbetween seas and trying to understand it in the way you want,although it would be an imaginary claim for 7th century...


I agree with all 10th points he presents in his article. What he also shows is that believers will manipulate their material to present what they want it to present.

Look there's nothing mentioned in the Quran which they did not have any idea or had thought of at the time. The embryological development is a perfect example of this and I know you disagrees, but the book is in perfect accordance of what was thought at the time about this matter. Concerning the barrier between water I have already stated that it is just basicly wrong. The barrier which the believers want to fathom is not a "barrier with no transgress" it is not "forbidden to pass". So if they want to make the argument that the Quran is refering to those "barriers" then the Quran is wrong. Now you a free to pull back the argument and resort to the argument of "allegorical", just as any honest knowledge person would have to about the verse about the "drop" emerging from between somthing (not in a position to look it up). But in my opinion the argumentation (except some few examples) is already, before actually "comparing" it to scientific research, a matter of manipulation and wishful thinking. Christians are doing the same things with the bible, and as far as I know hinduist has also started on this. It seems that what is only needed is enough believers and enough cash and then you can make a book about 'computer-science' to be the unadulterated complete, perfect book of everything. It's just nonsense. Now that we are giving eachother book recomendations, I would recommend to read Taner Edis "The Illusion of Harmony".

Quote:
3)Yeah,something is silly here,but it is not the link,it is the commenter(U)
Actually there were only 3 as i remember in the link.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_index.html

I dunno how "cleverly" you will deny them to your conscience,this time.
I am not sure if you checked the EVIDENCE that around Noah's as peoples,there WAS a BIIG flood.


First of all you have no fluke of an idea when Noah lived from the Quran. If you want to get an idea of when Noah lived you have to include exegetical material or the bible. Second as I said the Quran is in this case basicly just repeating other stories of floods. There have been many different floods throughout history, which could have contributed to create a "mythical history(/ies)" which developed over time. The bible parrots one of these stories, and the quran is basicly parroting the same yet again.

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4)I think you should stay silent,if you are too ignorant about a point.And still you say,it is bad for parents to make children memorize it,blah blah.Who asked your opinion?Damn it is bad,if you think Quran is "man words".But DAMN IT IS NOT!


lol. Well this is a place where we can express our opinions freely as long as we do not call eachother names or being abusive. And I DO think it's a sad, sad thing that kids are being pressed to sit and learn a book (in a language they don't know or certainly don't is well-learned in) by heart. And furthermore there's simply no miracle in this case. You just think it's amazing.

Quote:
5)Yeah,some same cases about 365 days etc.So what?I remember u had said,
"Not 365,364,someone proved it,here is the link"
Is it your best method?Just like you would be affected if you saw that it is indeed 365...
Sure,when you see evidence,it turns into "coincidence" Such as the ones about the Chepter Bee,16,with 128 verses.Related to the chromosomes of bee. (yeah,"blah blah",u can laugh)


Yep it is disputed how these wordcounts a made. Sometimes only words wihout fx pre-/suffixes is being used and etc. and sometimes all versions is included. And I did ask you why the book would use something which is changed over time concerning fx the 365 days etc. in an eternal book.

Quote:
6)Great to expose yourself,how much you want to disown Quran and make your conscience "sure" about its "wrongness"

If you are really interested,read this(yea,buy it now!) and see how PROOF shuts the **** up the clowns.

http://islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html


And he should make it case-closed? No. First of all I would read a review of his book. If it still sounds interesting I might consider to acquire it. I will update when I have read a review. My log in to the relevant journals is currently not working.

EDIT: I've read a review of his book now, and I could only find the one. The review stated that it was a good scholarly handiwork, but also that it was clearly coloured that he wanted the quran to be fixed early in time to fit his agenda, ie. to argue for the integrity of the quran. But overall a good representation of the muslim perspective, according to the reviewer. So it sounds like worth a read. The review was by Thomas McElwain and it was in the journal called The Muslim World, Vol. 97, No. 3, pp. 540-542, 2007. Though it should be noted that McElwain seems to be highly positive towards the traditional approach to the islamic transmissions, the approach which Al-A'zami has, which is questioned by other historians.

What Gerd R. Puin has argued for earlier fx in his article "Observations on Early Qur'anic Manuscripts in San'a'", in the book "The Qur'an as Text" ed. by Stefan Wild, is that other than wording and vowels differencies there was also difference in the way the manuscripts was compiled, ie. that the sequence of the chapters was different than from the quran canonized in the egyptian version of 1924. But perhaps we will get more information on "observation on Early Manuscripts in San'a'" in the forthcoming book I mentioned in my earlier comment, ie. the case is not closed. And we also have the german archive which has just reasonally been rediscovered. That could also contribute to shed some light on the different compilations of qurans and on the historicity of the book.
End of edit

Quote:
7)Sure,no comments,with laughs.What did you understand from this?


That your comment was expressing your subjective meaning.

Quote:
8)Lol,i am HFD,indeed,but where did you get to the idea,i dunno reading Arabic?
From the 1369 in Moon chapter,the last Alif? I had read it,how did you "realize" i couldn't?!


You told me that you did not. You told me that you where in the process of learning it, as far as I remember it, but I might have got that wrong. Perhaps it was another person. But probably you can clarify here?

Quote:

9)I had told you,i agree with some of his arguments,but it is like saying,a child has 50 dollars and he is not rich.
So having money doesn't make people rich.
But someone else has 50 billion $ and he is damn rich,it means having money may make people rich.
I mean that some of 19 arguments are not so interesting,but some of them are damn interesting..


No it's a matter of you want to find some patterns. If you really want to, you can find some. You find different approaches to try to find a pattern and every time something fits you burst out "mashallah" and report it and all the times, far most, you don't find anything you don't report it. See the pattern  Wink

Quote:
10)Look at the links below,then.


below in the article?

Quote:
11)http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm

You will find many more "error claims"
If yours will stay as the last "barrier" between you and Quran,i will be glad to talk about them.


Sure there's many more errors. But believers, muslims, jews, christians a like, construct "explanation" to try to remove these errors from their respective books.

Quote:
12)I've got a book just written on this matter,about 230 or 240 pages.
But I think best points of 19 are better,so first learn them.


Wow 230-240 pages. Is it how things a determined to be interesting or of value?

Quote:
13)nonsense.(my reply to yours Wink


You caught me redhanded Rolling Eyes

Quote:
14)Funny enough.("""""""""""""""""")


Well I do not think that there's perfect logic and wisdom in the quran. It's obviously a matter of opinion.

Quote:
15)Interesting.The calculations do give the speed of light,but sure,you can say "that verse doesn't even talk about light"


Well no they don't, the site admits that "gods" calculation is a bit off lol. What I'm saying about the use of the verse is that it does not say that it's the distance which is traveled. The verse talks about the distance to "god".

Quote:
If i am a first class parrot,lol.

You are probably a first class

"What is then the matter with them, that they turn away from the admonition
As if they were affrighted asses,
Fleeing from a lion!"  

Quran 74(the HIDDEN SECRET),49-51


Yes you are a first class parrot. You find what you like and reproduce it. That is what is parroting. I like your finishing off with a quranic verse. It has the answers for all things for you right, well it states that itself that it should have it?

Peace
Tvebak

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I was surprised to see Harun Hahya embracing the code 19 crap, what a shocker, I used to respect the guy, that respect just went down the drain on the fly, see in this page:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html


that is total crap, let me see if any of the arabic talking kafirs can spot the mitsakes especially when the article counts the words in the suras, the mitakes are clear for a child, any taker from the kafirs to expose it?


Hello Ahmed

Welcome back. Did you have good trip? Feel free to respond in the other thread, concerning Moses and the fire if you like.

Is "and" not a word in arabic?

Peace mate and again welcome back
cosmicdancer

HFD wrote:
OK,dude,you need a reply Smile


Hi HFD - Welcome and good to see you - I'm glad you accepted my invitation to come here - though you must forgive me as I do not have much time for all this and will leave it to others to discuss the details of your posts.

Take care and best wishes Smile

Hassan.
cosmicdancer

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I was surprised to see Harun Hahya embracing the code 19 crap, what a shocker, I used to respect the guy, that respect just went down the drain on the fly, see in this page:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html


that is total crap, let me see if any of the arabic talking kafirs can spot the mitsakes especially when the article counts the words in the suras, the mitakes are clear for a child, any taker from the kafirs to expose it?




Salams Ahmad, I used to be a fan of Harun Yahya too - a long time ago - but he lost my respect with his obsession with scientific miracles in the Qur'an and yet he seems oblivious to the rest of the Qur'an - as if these miracles make things like hitting women and torturing people in Hell for eternity - somehow acceptable (even if they were true).

I had a brief look at the page and can see that amongst the first verses revealed he counted 19 words yet some words he counted as ONE are combination of words i.e Bismi  and Rabbuka (noun Lord + pronoun Your) while at other times he is content to count other  prepositions and pronouns i.e Min or Al-lathee on their own. That struck me as arbitrary straight away - didn't read any more.

ps - there is no need to keep referring to non-Muslims as Kafirs - when you know it is a term that has derogatory overtones.

Hassan Smile
AhmedBahgat

[quote="Tvebak"]
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I was surprised to see Harun Hahya embracing the code 19 crap, what a shocker, I used to respect the guy, that respect just went down the drain on the fly, see in this page:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html


that is total crap, let me see if any of the arabic talking kafirs can spot the mitsakes especially when the article counts the words in the suras, the mitakes are clear for a child, any taker from the kafirs to expose it?


Tvebak wrote:

Hello Ahmed


Hello

Tvebak wrote:

Welcome back. Did you have good trip? Feel free to respond in the other thread, concerning Moses and the fire if you like.


If I have time later on

Tvebak wrote:

Is "and" not a word in arabic?


Of course "Wa" is a word that is one harf

also all the damirs attached to any word, is a word, i.e. their count is flawed

an example is "Rabuka",  Rab is a word and Ka is another word

Tvebak wrote:

Peace mate and again welcome back


Thanks
HFD

Damn I used the wrong window and all the things I wrote got deleted  Very Happy

Maybe that's better,because the argument was going nowhere.

I was searching for this link.

http://www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm

That's what error is,the ones in Quran are nothing but wrong translations(such as using the same word for 2 different words or selecting wrong words)

Other than this,i will summarize what i had written again about meaningful points.

2)I followed your argument with Garabsare.You didn't seem honest to urself.
Also you saw the quote from Cousteau,but your only option was calling it lie.


3)Please check out what was found related to Noah again.Sure there were many floods,and it is the way of your "running away",as i said.Always there is a way that will "block" you.


6)Buy the book from somewhere else if you can't use that site.

9)For example,watch 19th chapter of my videos.


And about parrot,u chose your animal and I chose mine Wink

I still think you are a first class affrighted ass,fleeing from a lion.
No,not because Quran said,it really describes you,if parrot describes me.

Now I want to quote a short part of one of those books I said in "1" about Quran.
You are free to read it,if you want,but i dunno,literature may bore you.



What makes Quran so different?

This is the eloquence of the Quran, which is at the degree of miraculousness. Its eloquence is a wonderful eloquence born of the beauty of its word order,
the perfection of its conciseness, the marvels of its style, its singularity and pleasantness, the excellence of its expression, its superiority and clarity,
the power and truth of its meanings, and from the purity and fluency of its language, which for one thousand three hundred years has challenged the most
brilliant men of letters of mankind, their most celebrated orators, and the most profoundly learned of them, and invited them to dispute it. It has provoked
them intensely. And although it has invited them to dispute it, those geniuses, whose heads touch the skies in their pride and conceit, have been unable to
so much as open their mouths to do so, and have bowed their heads utterly put down. Thus, we shall point to the miraculousness in its eloquence.

It possesses miraculousness and its miraculousness exists for the following reasons. The great majority of the people of the Arabian Peninsula at that time
were illiterate. Due to this, in place of in writing, they preserved the sources of their pride, historical events, and stories which assisted good morality,
by means of poetry and eloquence. Through the at- traction of poetry and eloquence, meaningful sayings would remain in people's memories
and be passed down the generations. And so, in consequence of this innate need, the goods most in demand in the immaterial market of that people was
eloquence. An eloquent literary figure of a tribe, even, was like its greatest national hero. It was through him that they gained their greatest pride.
Thus, that intelligent people who ruled the world through their intelligence after the establishment of Islam were, among the peoples of the world,
at the highest and most advanced degree of eloquence. It was the thing most in demand among them, was their cause of pride, and the thing for which they
had greatest need. Eloquence had such high value that two tribes would do battle at the word of a literary figure, and they would make peace at his word.
They even wrote in gold on the walls of the Ka'ba the seven qasidas of seven poets called the Muallaqat-i Sebta, and took great pride in them.
Thus, it was at such a time when eloquence was the thing most sought after that the Qurtan was revealed. Just as at the time of Moses (Peace be upon him)
it was magic that was most sought after and at the time of Jesus (Peace be upon him), it was medicine. The most important of their miracles were in those fields.

And so, the Qur'an invited the Arabian orators of that time to reply to even one of the shortest of the Suras. It challenged them with the decree of:

And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a Sura resembling it. (Quran 23,24)

And it also said: "If you do not believe, you shall be damned and shall go to Hell." It provoked them intensely. It smashed their pride in a fearsome manner.
It was contemptuous of their arrogant minds. It condemned them firstly to eternal extinction and then to eternal extinction in Hell, as well as to worldly
extinction. It said: "Either dispute me, or you and your property shall perish."

Thus, if it had been possible to dispute it, is it at all possible that, while there was an easy solution like disputing the Qur'an with one or two lines and
nullifying the claim, they should have chosen the most dangerous and most difficult, the way of war? Yes, is it at al1 possible that that clever people,
that politically-minded nation, who at one time were to govern the world through politics, should have abandoned the shortest, easiest, and most light way,
and chosen the most dangerous, which was going to cast their lives and ail their property into peril? For if their literary figures had been able to dispute it with a few words, the Qurtan would have given up its claim, and they would have been saved from material and moral disaster. Whereas they chose a fearsome and long road like war That means it was not possible to dispute in by word; it was impossible. Therefore they were compelled to fight it with the sword.

Furthermore, there are two most compelling reasons for the Qur'an being imitated. The first is its enemies' ambition to dispute it, the other,
its friends' pleasure at imitating it. Through these two impelling causes, millions of books in Arabic have been written, but not one of them resembles
the Qur'an. Whether learned or ignorant, whoever looks at it and at them most certainly says: "The Qur'an does not resemble these. Not one of them
has been able to imitate it." Therefore, the Qur'an is either inferior to all of them, and according to the consensus of friend and foe alike, this is completely
non-valid and impossible, or the Qur'an is superior to all of them.

If you say: "How do you know that no one has tried to dispute it, and that no one has had sufficient confidence to challenge it, and that no one's help for
anyone else was of any avail?"

The Answer: If it had been possible to dispute it, most certainly it would have been attempted. For it was a question of honor and pride, and life
and property were at risk. And if it had been attempted, most certainly there would have been many to support such an attempt.
For those who obstinately oppose the truth have always been many. And if it had had many supporters, they surely would have found fame.
For insignificant contests, even, attract the wonder of people and find fame in stories and tales. So an extraordinary contest and event such as
that could not have remained secret. The most ugly and infamous things against Islam have been related and become famous. Whereas, apart from
one or two stories about Museylima the Liar, nothing has been related. Museylima was very eloquent, but when compared with the exposition of the
Qur'an, which possesses infinite beauty, his words passed in the chronicles as nonsense. Thus, the miraculousness of the Qur'an's eloquence exists
as certainly as twice two equals four; the matter is thus.


Best Regards

Peace

HFD&reg


http://www.ayetulkubra.com/rnkdiller/eng/english_word.htm

Read the 25th word,if you wonder.
HFD

btw,i already found Hassan from your page,you favorized 1 of his vids,about Wafa sultan

peace
Tvebak

[quote="HFD"][color=indigo][font=Comic Sans MS]Damn I used the wrong window and all the things I wrote got deleted  Very Happy

Maybe that's better,because the argument was going nowhere.

Quote:
I was searching for this link.

http://www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm

That's what error is,the ones in Quran are nothing but wrong translations(such as using the same word for 2 different words or selecting wrong words)

Other than this,i will summarize what i had written again about meaningful points.


No the contradictions I argue there's is not about the translations. It's about clear conflicting information in the quran. Again people of every faith has these problems with their respective books. Some of them, the believers, admits it (in islam there's for instans Irshad Manji). Other believers go the length to make "explanation" to deal with these conflicting informations. Now also for the quran it's clear that it's not a clear book, which itself states.

Quote:
2)I followed your argument with Garabsare.You didn't seem honest to urself.
Also you saw the quote from Cousteau,but your only option was calling it lie.


About the barrier, he just dismissed my comment about there being constant transgress. I'll let him do his own math. My comment about Cousteau was that I'm sceptical about what is written in islamic 'miracle-sites' especially those which can't figure out making references. What I called a specific lie was that you wrote in your description of your video that Cousteau embraced islam. That is clear cut lie. Your answer was that "embrace" not necissarily means that he converted, which is a load of bs. I asked you to remove that part.

But please do your own observation on the different lines ("barriers"). There's plenty of reports and articles on that part of oceanology on the internet, a science which does also evovle  Wink .


Quote:
3)Please check out what was found related to Noah again.Sure there were many floods,and it is the way of your "running away",as i said.Always there is a way that will "block" you.


LOL I already downloaded the book. There's no evidence. What the book is doing is wasting my time repeating the story of Noah from the quran and then argues that there once was a specific flood in the Mesopotamian Plain, ie. he finds a flood that happened in ancient history and tries to make it fit the quranic agenda. Christians is doing the same, some of them thinks the bible is talking about a global flood others thinks it local. These different branches is also trying to find their flood and it's probably from them that Harun has his story. And they have plenty of them, floods, to argue from  Wink

Again the flood which did happen did probably create some myths, and these might have contributed to the idea of Noahs flood, ie. the epic of Gilgamesh, just to repeat what I've already said, but perhaps with more clarity.

Quote:
6)Buy the book from somewhere else if you can't use that site.


As said I might. No library has it here in Denmark as far as I can see, so that could be the only option. But again that he make an argument in book does not close the door. More fx achaelogical findings will either back the islamic tradition, ruin it, or neither.

Quote:
9)For example,watch 19th chapter of my videos.


Please make a comment here instead, with you own words.

Peace
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I was surprised to see Harun Hahya embracing the code 19 crap, what a shocker, I used to respect the guy, that respect just went down the drain on the fly, see in this page:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html


that is total crap, let me see if any of the arabic talking kafirs can spot the mitsakes especially when the article counts the words in the suras, the mitakes are clear for a child, any taker from the kafirs to expose it?


Just went in the first Two tables.

The first Table:
It ignores the vowel "A" in "RahmAn".

The Second table:

The 19th word "Lam Yalam" is Two words not just One.
The Second word "Bism" is Two words, a preposition and a word.

I stopped reading after this.

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