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David

Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran

Surah 4:157:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Yusuf Ali

and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed;  Arberry

and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.  Sarwar

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) Hilali/Khan

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.  H/K/Saheeh

and for their saying, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah. ' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but to them, he (the crucified) had been given the look (of Prophet Jesus). Those who differ concerning him (Prophet Jesus) are surely in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of supposition, and (it is) a certainty they did not kill him. Qaribullah

and their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so; and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him:  Asad

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.  Pickthal

And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.  Khalifa

Was someone else crucified in Jesus' place?  Did Allah put Jesus' face on someone else?  Some translations say yes and some don't.  Did they murder someone else by mistake?

Who are we to believe?

The only thing these translations get right is that the Jews didn't kill Jesus or crucify him.
BMZ

Re: Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran

David wrote:
 Was someone else crucified in Jesus' place?  Did Allah put Jesus' face on someone else?  Some translations say yes and some don't.  Did they murder someone else by mistake?

Who are we to believe?

The only thing these translations get right is that the Jews didn't kill Jesus or crucify him.


My title has been plagiarised.  Very Happy Just kidding.

I am rushing out for a meeting and will address this in the afternoon.

The answer to your first question is a No.

You should try to believe Qur'aan. I will translate it for you and you can consult Ahmed and All_Brains on my translation. The translators are not Matthews, Marks , Lukes and Johns.

Please stay tuned.

BMZ
Tvebak

Re: Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
 Was someone else crucified in Jesus' place?  Did Allah put Jesus' face on someone else?  Some translations say yes and some don't.  Did they murder someone else by mistake?

Who are we to believe?

The only thing these translations get right is that the Jews didn't kill Jesus or crucify him.


My title has been plagiarised.  Very Happy Just kidding.

I am rushing out for a meeting and will address this in the afternoon.

The answer to your first question is a No.

You should try to believe Qur'aan. I will translate it for you and you can consult Ahmed and All_Brains on my translation. The translators are not Matthews, Marks , Lukes and Johns.

Please stay tuned.

BMZ


That is one long meeting, eh. Is it soon athernoon where live BMZ?  Wink

Cheers
David

Re: Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran

Tvebak wrote:


That is one long meeting, eh. Is it soon athernoon where live BMZ?  Wink

Cheers


You took the words out of my mouth.  My guess is BMZ does not have answers and he used a "meeting" as an excuse to get out of trying to come up with some.
Baal

"Shubbiha Lahum" is a sentence that Muslims luv to use. It means "it was made to appear to them".

So they did not kill him or crucify jesus, but it 'shubbiha lahum'. This verse is a result of the fundamental difference between Chrsitianity and Islam. Self-sacrifice is the basis of Christianity. Your time and your comfort to start. To be a leader, you have to sacrifice yourself for those in your charge, you have to be the root of the tree that carries the rest.

In islam, the leader is on top of the tree and everyone else is just lifting you up.

It is like the mythical princes of "1001 Arabian Nights". To be a leader it is almost like starting your trip to an islamic heaven. You sacrifice whose in your charge, their time and comfort to start. You are on top of the tree and everyone else is lifting you.

It is inconceivable for muslims to accept the concept of self-sacrifice for a leader. They prefer to continue to sacrifice animals. They prefer to continue worshipping their leaders.

And they are perfectly fine with the idea that when Muhammad had to run away from Mecca, he placed his 10yr old cousin Ali in his bed to die in his place and then ran off with Abu Bakr in the cover of the night.
HomoErectus

Baal wrote:


And they are perfectly fine with the idea that when Muhammad had to run away from Mecca, he placed his 10yr old cousin Ali in his bed to die in his place and then ran off with Abu Bakr in the cover of the night.


Dear Baal

This is a very interesting detail I havent heard of before...

Where is the story, is it a hadith ?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Aye! I’ve not heard that before, what a shocking detail!
Baal

It was one of the Hijra (immigration) stories taught to us in school. The story put muhammad in a very positive light as to how allah saved him and how Ali was a hero at 10yr old for not being affraid to die.

I guess another story I will have to dig out and translate. I am still digging for the story of the 100+ yr old poetess that he ordered quartered and had her family enslaved.
David

I see no Muslim has been able to answer my questions.

My guess is the reason no Muslim can answer my questions is because Surah 4:157 is incoherent, which means that Allah didn't know what happened either so he created a verse to cover up his confusion.
AhmedBahgat

Wa Lakin Shubbiha Lahum

the word Lahum must be referring to THEM (the ones who tried to kill him)

i.e. it was made to appear to THEM

if it means that someone was made to look like him, then the word must be Lahu

after clearing this for you, the context of made to appear to them can allo both understansdings:

1) That Jesus was put on the cross and the whole thing was an illusion to them, i.e. they thought that they were really torturing and killing him while Allah made Jesus not to feel any pain

2) That someone was made to look like  and this made it to appear to THEM that they killed him

what version is right?, it is impossible to know:

qhat we can confirm with certainty as exctracted from the Quran, that Allah saved Jesus and made the whole thing as an illusion to them
David

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Wa Lakin Shubbiha Lahum

the word Lahum must be referring to THEM (the ones who tried to kill him)

i.e. it was made to appear to THEM

if it means that someone was made to look like him, then the word must be Lahu  


Thank you for trying to straighten out Surah 4:157.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


after clearing this for you, the context of made to appear to them can allo both understansdings:

1) That Jesus was put on the cross and the whole thing was an illusion to them,


Surah 4:157

Transliteration Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

Literal And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

The literal translation does not support your theory that Jesus was put on the cross.  How do you explain that?

AhmedBahgat wrote:


i.e. they thought that they were really torturing and killing him while Allah made Jesus not to feel any pain  


Your theory that Jesus felt no pain is not in the Arabic text.  How do you explain that?

AhmedBahgat wrote:


2) That someone was made to look like  and this made it to appear to THEM that they killed him

what version is right?, it is impossible to know:  


Most Muslims believe there was a substitute.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


qhat we can confirm with certainty as exctracted from the Quran, that Allah saved Jesus and made the whole thing as an illusion to them


I don't think you can confirm that.

Surah 4:157 is an emphatic denial of the Jews' boasting; it is an emphatic denial of their claim that theirs is the victory. That is what the Qur'an denies, not the actual death and the actual crucifixion of Jesus. The mode of expression in this verse is found in the Qur'an in different forms. When the Qur'an speaks of those who have eyes but do not see it does not mean that they are blind, but that they do not perceive the truth. Similarly when the Qur'an speaks of those who do not hear, it is the perception of what they actually heard that they have denied. It is the same with the Jews, they killed the Christ, but their perception that they had finally destroyed him is denied. They thought that by their crucifying him, he would be finished, but he rose from the dead. The crucifixion was not the last word. The resurrection was. So they thought they had killed him on the cross, but they had not, for he rose again.

And that is what Surah 4:158 says:

TransliterationBal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman

LiteralBut God rose him (Jesus) to Him, and God was/is glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.
AhmedBahgat

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Wa Lakin Shubbiha Lahum

the word Lahum must be referring to THEM (the ones who tried to kill him)

i.e. it was made to appear to THEM

if it means that someone was made to look like him, then the word must be Lahu  


David wrote:
Thank you for trying to straighten out Surah 4:157.



Hello

I was not straighten out verse 4:157, I was only straigtten out your understanding to verse 4:157

AhmedBahgat wrote:

after clearing this for you, the context of made to appear to them can allo both understansdings:

1) That Jesus was put on the cross and the whole thing was an illusion to them,


Surah 4:157

Transliteration Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

Literal And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

David wrote:
The literal translation does not support your theory that Jesus was put on the cross.  How do you explain that?


Well, I will accept your arrgument, not because the literal translation rather because the word Ma before the Qataluh and before Salabuh

This must leave us that someone else was put on the cross and killed while they people who killed him thought that they killed Jesus, it was made to appear to them
[quote="AhmedBahgat"]

David wrote:
i.e. they thought that they were really torturing and killing him while Allah made Jesus not to feel any pain  


Let's dismiss that possibilty then


David wrote:

Your theory that Jesus felt no pain is not in the Arabic text.  How do you explain that?


well, I based it on another fact from the bible, when Jesus came back and I think his mother wanted to touch him, he told her NOT, i think because of the injuries in him, but I'm happy to dismiss that because the bible for me is not 100% accurate

AhmedBahgat wrote:

2) That someone was made to look like  and this made it to appear to THEM that they killed him

what version is right?, it is impossible to know:  


David wrote:
Most Muslims believe there was a substitute.


and a sect from the Cristians called Nasara also believe the same

AhmedBahgat wrote:

qhat we can confirm with certainty as exctracted from the Quran, that Allah saved Jesus and made the whole thing as an illusion to them


David wrote:
I don't think you can confirm that.


It's stated in 4:157 pal, are you that confused?

here it is again:

Wa Ma Qataluh Wa Ma Salabuh

David wrote:

Surah 4:157 is an emphatic denial of the Jews' boasting; it is an emphatic denial of their claim that theirs is the victory. That is what the Qur'an denies, not the actual death and the actual crucifixion of Jesus. The mode of expression in this verse is found in the Qur'an in different forms. When the Qur'an speaks of those who have eyes but do not see it does not mean that they are blind, but that they do not perceive the truth. Similarly when the Qur'an speaks of those who do not hear, it is the perception of what they actually heard that they have denied. It is the same with the Jews, they killed the Christ, but their perception that they had finally destroyed him is denied. They thought that by their crucifying him, he would be finished, but he rose from the dead. The crucifixion was not the last word. The resurrection was. So they thought they had killed him on the cross, but they had not, for he rose again.


Wrong, the word Ma is a denial to the vern that came after it, i.e. they didn't kill him, then in the end of the verse it was confirmed again وما قتلوه يقينا, Wa Ma Qataluh YAQINA, can you see the word YAQINA,  do you know what that word means?

David wrote:

And that is what Surah 4:158 says:

TransliterationBal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman

LiteralBut God rose him (Jesus) to Him, and God was/is glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.


i.e. Allah saved Isa 100%, you just slam dunked yourself

cheers
David

AhmedBahgat wrote:


I was not straighten out verse 4:157, I was only straigtten out your understanding to verse 4:157


You have a lot of work cut out for you because you should try to straighten out all of the Muslims who are confused about what 4:157 is saying and I am sure I don't have to list all of the various theories Muslims come up with.

The fact is that Surah 4:157 is anything be clear.  If it were clear there would not be so much confusion.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


well, I based it on another fact from the bible, when Jesus came back and I think his mother wanted to touch him, he told her NOT, i think because of the injuries in him, but I'm happy to dismiss that because the bible for me is not 100% accurate


There is nothing in the New Testament that indicates the Jesus did not experience pain.

The account you are referring to did not involve Jesus' mother.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


and a sect from the Cristians called Nasara also believe the same


If you are referring to the Nazarenes, you are incorrect so you are going to have identify the sect you have in mind.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


Wrong, the word Ma is a denial to the vern that came after it, i.e. they didn't kill him, then in the end of the verse it was confirmed again وما قتلوه يقينا, Wa Ma Qataluh YAQINA, can you see the word YAQINA,  do you know what that word means?


We could say that Surah 4:157 is merely saying that the Jews didn't kill Jesus and the Jews didn't crucify Jesus.  They didn't, did they?  It was the Romans who killed Jesus and crucified him, so the Quran is correct in this regard.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


i.e. Allah saved Isa 100%, you just slam dunked yourself


No, I didn't.  Read what I said again.  Let me make it clearer for you.

Jesus died on the cross.  Those who thought they could really kill him were mistaken because God caused Jesus to rise again and that is what the New Testament says.

It would be along the lines of the following:

One writer, commenting on the tragic murder of al-Husein, said,
On the tenth of the month of Moharam in the year 61H, al-Husein was killed and all those who were with him of men, youth and children, except Imam Ali son of al-Husein. And people said that al-Husein wasted his life and the lives of those with him ... But time proved the opposite. For the pure blood of al-Husein did not dry up on the soil of Karbala'a until the throne of the Amawites was quaked and the seat of Yazid was shaken. They were days when the power of the Amawite crumbled in shame. And the wonderful victory was on the side of the reformation [of al-Husein]....

This is the same sentiment that answers the boasting of the Jews who said, 'We killed the Christ'. The people said that Al-Husein 'wasted his life... but time proved the opposite'; that is, he did not waste his life. But that is not to say he was not killed, for he was. And so it was with Jesus. al-Husein was killed by those who were supposed to accept him and honor him, Jesus likewise.

You also have to deal with the following verse from the Quran:

"Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them.  And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.  Lo! Allis Hearer, Knower.  Surah 8;17

Hence, it wasn't the Jews who crucified Jesus but God's set purpose which allowed Jesus to be crucified and this is what the New Testament says.

The Muslim theory has many problems and only adds to the confusion.

1.  If Jesus was not crucified (put on the cross), who was crucified and how did they convince Jesus' followers, including his mother, that it was Jesus on that cross?

2.  If Jesus was not put on the cross when was he "taken to Allah?"

3.  Who was in the tomb?

4.  How do you explain the appearances to his disciples over a period of 40 days?

5.  The Muslim theory makes God out to be the biggest deceiver.  It would be God who was responsible for deceiving the followers of Jesus, including Mary, his mother.
Fathom

David wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


I was not straighten out verse 4:157, I was only straigtten out your understanding to verse 4:157


You have a lot of work cut out for you because you should try to straighten out all of the Muslims who are confused about what 4:157 is saying and I am sure I don't have to list all of the various theories Muslims come up with.

The fact is that Surah 4:157 is anything be clear.  If it were clear there would not be so much confusion.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


well, I based it on another fact from the bible, when Jesus came back and I think his mother wanted to touch him, he told her NOT, i think because of the injuries in him, but I'm happy to dismiss that because the bible for me is not 100% accurate


There is nothing in the New Testament that indicates the Jesus did not experience pain.

The account you are referring to did not involve Jesus' mother.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


and a sect from the Cristians called Nasara also believe the same


If you are referring to the Nazarenes, you are incorrect so you are going to have identify the sect you have in mind.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


Wrong, the word Ma is a denial to the vern that came after it, i.e. they didn't kill him, then in the end of the verse it was confirmed again وما قتلوه يقينا, Wa Ma Qataluh YAQINA, can you see the word YAQINA,  do you know what that word means?


We could say that Surah 4:157 is merely saying that the Jews didn't kill Jesus and the Jews didn't crucify Jesus.  They didn't, did they?  It was the Romans who killed Jesus and crucified him, so the Quran is correct in this regard.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


i.e. Allah saved Isa 100%, you just slam dunked yourself


No, I didn't.  Read what I said again.  Let me make it clearer for you.

Jesus died on the cross.  Those who thought they could really kill him were mistaken because God caused Jesus to rise again and that is what the New Testament says.

It would be along the lines of the following:

One writer, commenting on the tragic murder of al-Husein, said,
On the tenth of the month of Moharam in the year 61H, al-Husein was killed and all those who were with him of men, youth and children, except Imam Ali son of al-Husein. And people said that al-Husein wasted his life and the lives of those with him ... But time proved the opposite. For the pure blood of al-Husein did not dry up on the soil of Karbala'a until the throne of the Amawites was quaked and the seat of Yazid was shaken. They were days when the power of the Amawite crumbled in shame. And the wonderful victory was on the side of the reformation [of al-Husein]....

This is the same sentiment that answers the boasting of the Jews who said, 'We killed the Christ'. The people said that Al-Husein 'wasted his life... but time proved the opposite'; that is, he did not waste his life. But that is not to say he was not killed, for he was. And so it was with Jesus. al-Husein was killed by those who were supposed to accept him and honor him, Jesus likewise.

You also have to deal with the following verse from the Quran:

"Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them.  And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.  Lo! Allis Hearer, Knower.  Surah 8;17

Hence, it wasn't the Jews who crucified Jesus but God's set purpose which allowed Jesus to be crucified and this is what the New Testament says.

The Muslim theory has many problems and only adds to the confusion.

1.  If Jesus was not crucified (put on the cross), who was crucified and how did they convince Jesus' followers, including his mother, that it was Jesus on that cross?

2.  If Jesus was not put on the cross when was he "taken to Allah?"

3.  Who was in the tomb?

4.  How do you explain the appearances to his disciples over a period of 40 days?

5.  The Muslim theory makes God out to be the biggest deceiver.  It would be God who was responsible for deceiving the followers of Jesus, including Mary, his mother.


Your assessment is spot on, David, well done. I have said much of the very same thing for years now.

In addition to what you've said, I will like to point out that one of the key words in Surah 4.157 is the word "they." The word "they" refers to the Jews in every useage, and if we were to replace the word "they" with "the Jews"- which is what it means anyways- we can then see clearly what the verse is both saying, and not saying:



4.157 That the Jews claimed, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah. But the Jews did not kill him, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to the Jews as so, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety the Jews did not kill him."

Surah 4.157 never denies that Jesus was crucified; it only denies that the Jews were responsible for his crucifixion.
AhmedBahgat

Ignorant and dumb kafirs

Read 4:158 again, it says:

RATHER ALLAH RAISED HIM

i bloody e. They didn't kill him nor crucifued him RATHER ALLAH RAISED HIM (Jesus)

Can you see the word RATHER you confused blinds, in arabic it is Bal

Why don't you dumb and dumber dismiss your stupid arses and stop wasting my time with your typical  confusion that is motivated by being a brainedwashed christian  or an ex christian?
AhmedBahgat

What a slam dunk that was man

the confused have ran away, let me see what BS they will try to come up to refute the word RATHER in 4:158
David

Fathom wrote:
David wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


I was not straighten out verse 4:157, I was only straigtten out your understanding to verse 4:157


You have a lot of work cut out for you because you should try to straighten out all of the Muslims who are confused about what 4:157 is saying and I am sure I don't have to list all of the various theories Muslims come up with.

The fact is that Surah 4:157 is anything be clear.  If it were clear there would not be so much confusion.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


well, I based it on another fact from the bible, when Jesus came back and I think his mother wanted to touch him, he told her NOT, i think because of the injuries in him, but I'm happy to dismiss that because the bible for me is not 100% accurate


There is nothing in the New Testament that indicates the Jesus did not experience pain.

The account you are referring to did not involve Jesus' mother.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


and a sect from the Cristians called Nasara also believe the same


If you are referring to the Nazarenes, you are incorrect so you are going to have identify the sect you have in mind.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


Wrong, the word Ma is a denial to the vern that came after it, i.e. they didn't kill him, then in the end of the verse it was confirmed again وما قتلوه يقينا, Wa Ma Qataluh YAQINA, can you see the word YAQINA,  do you know what that word means?


We could say that Surah 4:157 is merely saying that the Jews didn't kill Jesus and the Jews didn't crucify Jesus.  They didn't, did they?  It was the Romans who killed Jesus and crucified him, so the Quran is correct in this regard.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


i.e. Allah saved Isa 100%, you just slam dunked yourself


No, I didn't.  Read what I said again.  Let me make it clearer for you.

Jesus died on the cross.  Those who thought they could really kill him were mistaken because God caused Jesus to rise again and that is what the New Testament says.

It would be along the lines of the following:

One writer, commenting on the tragic murder of al-Husein, said,
On the tenth of the month of Moharam in the year 61H, al-Husein was killed and all those who were with him of men, youth and children, except Imam Ali son of al-Husein. And people said that al-Husein wasted his life and the lives of those with him ... But time proved the opposite. For the pure blood of al-Husein did not dry up on the soil of Karbala'a until the throne of the Amawites was quaked and the seat of Yazid was shaken. They were days when the power of the Amawite crumbled in shame. And the wonderful victory was on the side of the reformation [of al-Husein]....

This is the same sentiment that answers the boasting of the Jews who said, 'We killed the Christ'. The people said that Al-Husein 'wasted his life... but time proved the opposite'; that is, he did not waste his life. But that is not to say he was not killed, for he was. And so it was with Jesus. al-Husein was killed by those who were supposed to accept him and honor him, Jesus likewise.

You also have to deal with the following verse from the Quran:

"Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them.  And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.  Lo! Allis Hearer, Knower.  Surah 8;17

Hence, it wasn't the Jews who crucified Jesus but God's set purpose which allowed Jesus to be crucified and this is what the New Testament says.

The Muslim theory has many problems and only adds to the confusion.

1.  If Jesus was not crucified (put on the cross), who was crucified and how did they convince Jesus' followers, including his mother, that it was Jesus on that cross?

2.  If Jesus was not put on the cross when was he "taken to Allah?"

3.  Who was in the tomb?

4.  How do you explain the appearances to his disciples over a period of 40 days?

5.  The Muslim theory makes God out to be the biggest deceiver.  It would be God who was responsible for deceiving the followers of Jesus, including Mary, his mother.


Your assessment is spot on, David, well done. I have said much of the very same thing for years now.

In addition to what you've said, I will like to point out that one of the key words in Surah 4.157 is the word "they." The word "they" refers to the Jews in every useage, and if we were to replace the word "they" with "the Jews"- which is what it means anyways- we can then see clearly what the verse is both saying, and not saying:



4.157 That the Jews claimed, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah. But the Jews did not kill him, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to the Jews as so, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety the Jews did not kill him."

Surah 4.157 never denies that Jesus was crucified; it only denies that the Jews were responsible for his crucifixion.


Thanks Fathom, that is how I see it and that is what the Qur'an says.  It is so obvious even a blind man could see it.

So, why can't the Muslims?
David

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Ignorant and dumb kafirs

Read 4:158 again, it says:

RATHER ALLAH RAISED HIM

i bloody e. They didn't kill him nor crucifued him RATHER ALLAH RAISED HIM (Jesus)

Can you see the word RATHER you confused blinds, in arabic it is Bal

Why don't you dumb and dumber dismiss your stupid arses and stop wasting my time with your typical  confusion that is motivated by being a brainedwashed christian  or an ex christian?


Must have hit a nerve, otherwise you would have not resorted to personal attacks.

You can't answer in an intelligent way so you resort to personal attacks.  I have seen this happen many times before from Muslims in many areas.

The problem is that even Muslim Scholars who are well-versed in the Arabic language don't agree with you and some say that the Arabic does not deny that Jesus died.  This is what the New Testament says.

Some of these Muslims scholars even go so far to say that Jesus was dead for 3 or more hours and then God raised him.

I think you don't want to face the fact that your god was the greatest deceiver known to mankind, if the interpretation of Surah 4:157 is what you believe it to be.

I also think you cannot face the fact that the Christians are right and that means you have to face the fact as to why Jesus died and rose from the dead.

Think about it.
AhmedBahgat

I don't answer those who manipulate the Quran in the way thy wish

I answer the Quran manipulators the way I wish

you are dismissed mister confused

now think about your dismissal and respect it and never ask me any Quran question again until you prove that you are not a confused manipluator

cheers
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I don't answer those who manipulate the Quran in the way thy wish

I answer the Quran manipulators the way I wish

you are dismissed mister confused

now think about your dismissal and respect it and never ask me any Quran question again until you prove that you are not a confused manipluator

cheers


You become angry so easily. The truth should always be what you are looking for, as opposed to traditional beliefs. We both know that the Quran gives so many indicators that Jesus died that it's simply silly to deny it any more.

The man died on a cross, and the Quran never denies that at any time.
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I don't answer those who manipulate the Quran in the way thy wish

I answer the Quran manipulators the way I wish

you are dismissed mister confused

now think about your dismissal and respect it and never ask me any Quran question again until you prove that you are not a confused manipluator

cheers


You become angry so easily. The truth should always be what you are looking for, as opposed to traditional beliefs. We both know that the Quran gives so many indicators that Jesus died that it's simply silly to deny it any more.

The man died on a cross, and the Quran never denies that at any time.


Pal, I'm not angry nor became angry, but if you want to insist that I'm then fine, I;m angry at those dumb bums who are living their barbie world claiming crap about the Quran while the Quran slam dunk them ith ease using TWO LETTERS word (Bal) (RATHER)

The Quarn even slams dunks the ignorant with one letter words, I did it before many times with even some confused Muslims over free-minds.org

now you are trying to confuse the subject after I slam dunked you with the two letters word at the sdtart of 4:158, if you can nnot refute the word RATHER then please sthu

now for the death of jesus, of course you bloody know that I stand for his death on earth, but not on the cross

now look in my fukin eyes and answer this simple question:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now before you confsue the subject with your crap about the damir they, let me tell you somethin first

I donlt give a fuk who tried to kill him, the jews or the romans or the red indians

my question again:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now after you answer the above, you need to also answer the following question:

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

and finally, here is the last question you need to answer (think smart first while comparing it with the above question):

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


back to you
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I don't answer those who manipulate the Quran in the way thy wish

I answer the Quran manipulators the way I wish

you are dismissed mister confused

now think about your dismissal and respect it and never ask me any Quran question again until you prove that you are not a confused manipluator

cheers


You become angry so easily. The truth should always be what you are looking for, as opposed to traditional beliefs. We both know that the Quran gives so many indicators that Jesus died that it's simply silly to deny it any more.

The man died on a cross, and the Quran never denies that at any time.


Pal, I'm not angry nor became angry, but if you want to insist that I'm then fine, I;m angry at those dumb bums who are living their barbie world claiming crap about the Quran while the Quran slam dunk them ith ease using TWO LETTERS word (Bal) (RATHER)

The Quarn even slams dunks the ignorant with one letter words, I did it before many times with even some confused Muslims over free-minds.org

now you are trying to confuse the subject after I slam dunked you with the two letters word at the sdtart of 4:158, if you can nnot refute the word RATHER then please sthu

now for the death of jesus, of course you bloody know that I stand for his death on earth, but not on the cross

now look in my fukin eyes and answer this simple question:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now before you confsue the subject with your crap about the damir they, let me tell you somethin first

I donlt give a fuk who tried to kill him, the jews or the romans or the red indians

my question again:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now after you answer the above, you need to also answer the following question:

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

and finally, here is the last question you need to answer (think smart first while comparing it with the above question):

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


back to you


I do not need to refute the word "Rather," In fact I agree with you on that point.

Yet, even the use of "Rather" it still does not say that Jesus was not crucified. It still only denies that the Jews were the one's who did it. And also, the use of "rather" could be the Quran's way of saying something to the effect that the crucifixion of Jesus was a failure because God raised him right back up again.

There are numerous Quran verses whereas the word "raised" is used as opposed to resurrection when it speaks of raising someone from death. Therefore, the word "raised" as used in verse 4.158 could easily apply to Jesus being raised from death, and subsequently cheating the Jews out of their claim that they killed and crucified him.

Nothing is conclusive, and that verse certainly is anything but clear, and certainly does not deny that Jesus was nailed to the cross.
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I don't answer those who manipulate the Quran in the way thy wish

I answer the Quran manipulators the way I wish

you are dismissed mister confused

now think about your dismissal and respect it and never ask me any Quran question again until you prove that you are not a confused manipluator

cheers


You become angry so easily. The truth should always be what you are looking for, as opposed to traditional beliefs. We both know that the Quran gives so many indicators that Jesus died that it's simply silly to deny it any more.

The man died on a cross, and the Quran never denies that at any time.


Pal, I'm not angry nor became angry, but if you want to insist that I'm then fine, I;m angry at those dumb bums who are living their barbie world claiming crap about the Quran while the Quran slam dunk them ith ease using TWO LETTERS word (Bal) (RATHER)

The Quarn even slams dunks the ignorant with one letter words, I did it before many times with even some confused Muslims over free-minds.org

now you are trying to confuse the subject after I slam dunked you with the two letters word at the sdtart of 4:158, if you can nnot refute the word RATHER then please sthu

now for the death of jesus, of course you bloody know that I stand for his death on earth, but not on the cross

now look in my fukin eyes and answer this simple question:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now before you confsue the subject with your crap about the damir they, let me tell you somethin first

I donlt give a fuk who tried to kill him, the jews or the romans or the red indians

my question again:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now after you answer the above, you need to also answer the following question:

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

and finally, here is the last question you need to answer (think smart first while comparing it with the above question):

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


back to you


I do not need to refute the word "Rather," In fact I agree with you on that point.

Yet, even the use of "Rather" it still does not say that Jesus was not crucified. It still only denies that the Jews were the one's who did it. And also, the use of "rather" could be the Quran's way of saying something to the effect that the crucifixion of Jesus was a failure because God raised him right back up again.

There are numerous Quran verses whereas the word "raised" is used as opposed to resurrection when it speaks of raising someone from death. Therefore, the word "raised" as used in verse 4.158 could easily apply to Jesus being raised from death, and subsequently cheating the Jews out of their claim that they killed and crucified him.

Nothing is conclusive, and that verse certainly is anything but clear, and certainly does not deny that Jesus was nailed to the cross.


Stop acting like the dumb kafirs,

Inni Mutawafika Wa Rafiaaka

i.e.

I will cause you to die (naturally) and will raise you

got it pal?

the above should be enouh to refute your crap that he is killed by who ever the fuk be

He died NATURALLY (Wafaa) before he was raised

now adding this to Bal Raffahu Allah

we can conclude 100% according to the Quran, Jesus was saved from whoever wanted to kill him, then Allah caused him to die naturally (not killed by another humans), then Allah raised his dead body or whatever the word raised meaning you want it to be, makes no bloody difference

you have been slam dunked for the zillion time regarding this matter

no more time to waste on your silly and unfounded crap against the Quran

cheers
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I don't answer those who manipulate the Quran in the way thy wish

I answer the Quran manipulators the way I wish

you are dismissed mister confused

now think about your dismissal and respect it and never ask me any Quran question again until you prove that you are not a confused manipluator

cheers


You become angry so easily. The truth should always be what you are looking for, as opposed to traditional beliefs. We both know that the Quran gives so many indicators that Jesus died that it's simply silly to deny it any more.

The man died on a cross, and the Quran never denies that at any time.


Pal, I'm not angry nor became angry, but if you want to insist that I'm then fine, I;m angry at those dumb bums who are living their barbie world claiming crap about the Quran while the Quran slam dunk them ith ease using TWO LETTERS word (Bal) (RATHER)

The Quarn even slams dunks the ignorant with one letter words, I did it before many times with even some confused Muslims over free-minds.org

now you are trying to confuse the subject after I slam dunked you with the two letters word at the sdtart of 4:158, if you can nnot refute the word RATHER then please sthu

now for the death of jesus, of course you bloody know that I stand for his death on earth, but not on the cross

now look in my fukin eyes and answer this simple question:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now before you confsue the subject with your crap about the damir they, let me tell you somethin first

I donlt give a fuk who tried to kill him, the jews or the romans or the red indians

my question again:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now after you answer the above, you need to also answer the following question:

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

and finally, here is the last question you need to answer (think smart first while comparing it with the above question):

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


back to you


I do not need to refute the word "Rather," In fact I agree with you on that point.

Yet, even the use of "Rather" it still does not say that Jesus was not crucified. It still only denies that the Jews were the one's who did it. And also, the use of "rather" could be the Quran's way of saying something to the effect that the crucifixion of Jesus was a failure because God raised him right back up again.

There are numerous Quran verses whereas the word "raised" is used as opposed to resurrection when it speaks of raising someone from death. Therefore, the word "raised" as used in verse 4.158 could easily apply to Jesus being raised from death, and subsequently cheating the Jews out of their claim that they killed and crucified him.

Nothing is conclusive, and that verse certainly is anything but clear, and certainly does not deny that Jesus was nailed to the cross.


Stop acting like the dumb kafirs,

Inni Mutawafika Wa Rafiaaka

i.e.

I will cause you to die (naturally) and will raise you

got it pal?

the above should be enouh to refute your crap that he is killed by who ever the fuk be

He died NATURALLY (Wafaa) before he was raised

now adding this to Bal Raffahu Allah

we can conclude 100% according to the Quran, Jesus was saved from whoever wanted to kill him, then Allah caused him to die naturally (not killed by another humans), then Allah raised his dead body or whatever the word raised meaning you want it to be, makes no bloody difference

you have been slam dunked for the zillion time regarding this matter

no more time to waste on your silly and unfounded crap against the Quran

cheers


Unfortunately, the word "naturally" does not appear in the Quran in that verse at all.  I know it, and you do also.

It's not even implied, not in Arabic, nor any language.
All_Brains

According to some very reliable sources, Jesus actually died in a motor cycle accident!

I wish I had a time machine! Mad
Baal

Between verse 4:157 to 158 it goes like this:

..They were not sure if they killed him" "but allah raised him to himself..."

I did not read the previous discussion so I am not sure where is the contention but this is how I am ready the verse.

It feels like the guy who wrote these Two verses is not really sure what happened and trying to omit specifics. They were not sure if they killed him but god raised him. If the writer knew what really happened the language would have been different. The writer would not have used: "They were not sure if".

But anyways, this is how I am reading it.
Fathom

All_Brains wrote:
According to some very reliable sources, Jesus actually died in a motor cycle accident!

I wish I had a time machine! Mad


Jesus was a Harley man.
All_Brains

Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
According to some very reliable sources, Jesus actually died in a motor cycle accident!

I wish I had a time machine! Mad


Jesus was a Harley man.


It's good to maintain some sort of sense humour amidst all this madness of speculations and assumptions.
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I don't answer those who manipulate the Quran in the way thy wish

I answer the Quran manipulators the way I wish

you are dismissed mister confused

now think about your dismissal and respect it and never ask me any Quran question again until you prove that you are not a confused manipluator

cheers


You become angry so easily. The truth should always be what you are looking for, as opposed to traditional beliefs. We both know that the Quran gives so many indicators that Jesus died that it's simply silly to deny it any more.

The man died on a cross, and the Quran never denies that at any time.


Pal, I'm not angry nor became angry, but if you want to insist that I'm then fine, I;m angry at those dumb bums who are living their barbie world claiming crap about the Quran while the Quran slam dunk them ith ease using TWO LETTERS word (Bal) (RATHER)

The Quarn even slams dunks the ignorant with one letter words, I did it before many times with even some confused Muslims over free-minds.org

now you are trying to confuse the subject after I slam dunked you with the two letters word at the sdtart of 4:158, if you can nnot refute the word RATHER then please sthu

now for the death of jesus, of course you bloody know that I stand for his death on earth, but not on the cross

now look in my fukin eyes and answer this simple question:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now before you confsue the subject with your crap about the damir they, let me tell you somethin first

I donlt give a fuk who tried to kill him, the jews or the romans or the red indians

my question again:

WAS JESUS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

now after you answer the above, you need to also answer the following question:

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED ON THE CROSS?

and finally, here is the last question you need to answer (think smart first while comparing it with the above question):

DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


back to you


I do not need to refute the word "Rather," In fact I agree with you on that point.

Yet, even the use of "Rather" it still does not say that Jesus was not crucified. It still only denies that the Jews were the one's who did it. And also, the use of "rather" could be the Quran's way of saying something to the effect that the crucifixion of Jesus was a failure because God raised him right back up again.

There are numerous Quran verses whereas the word "raised" is used as opposed to resurrection when it speaks of raising someone from death. Therefore, the word "raised" as used in verse 4.158 could easily apply to Jesus being raised from death, and subsequently cheating the Jews out of their claim that they killed and crucified him.

Nothing is conclusive, and that verse certainly is anything but clear, and certainly does not deny that Jesus was nailed to the cross.


Stop acting like the dumb kafirs,

Inni Mutawafika Wa Rafiaaka

i.e.

I will cause you to die (naturally) and will raise you

got it pal?

the above should be enouh to refute your crap that he is killed by who ever the fuk be

He died NATURALLY (Wafaa) before he was raised

now adding this to Bal Raffahu Allah

we can conclude 100% according to the Quran, Jesus was saved from whoever wanted to kill him, then Allah caused him to die naturally (not killed by another humans), then Allah raised his dead body or whatever the word raised meaning you want it to be, makes no bloody difference

you have been slam dunked for the zillion time regarding this matter

no more time to waste on your silly and unfounded crap against the Quran

cheers


Unfortunately, the word "naturally" does not appear in the Quran in that verse at all.  I know it, and you do also.

It's not even implied, not in Arabic, nor any language.



Didn't I explain to you the use of the Quran for the word Wafaa?

this is also the same use in the language

now for all other death but naturally, it is called Masraa

I even told you that before and yet you keep repeating your ignorance, I know it's hard to acceot defeat

Look pal, Wafaa can never be used for anyone who died unaturally, like killed by others or in an accident

how many times I have to tell you that, pal?
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
According to some very reliable sources, Jesus actually died in a motor cycle accident!

I wish I had a time machine! Mad


Jesus was a Harley man.


It's good to maintain some sort of sense humour amidst all this madness of speculations and assumptions.



Hello A_B

Can you please explain to fathom the diference in use between the word Wafaa and the word Masraa

please note the last letter in the word Masraa is Ain

cheers
David

AhmedBahgat wrote:


DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


No, it only denies that the Jews did it.
BMZ

All_Brains wrote:
According to some very reliable sources, Jesus actually died in a motor cycle accident!

I wish I had a time machine! Mad


lol! Even if Sherlock Holmes were there at the alleged crucifiction, he would not have been able to make out anything of the show staged and also would not have been able to give the exact details of the account.

He might have reported by saying,"My dear Dr. Watson, the alleged accused escaped."

BMZ
AhmedBahgat

David wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


No, it only denies that the Jews did it.



How arrogant and stupid you are David

here it is again,

Inni (i.e. Allah), Mutwafika (cause you to die naturally)

i.e. NO ONE KILLED HIM NOR HE DIED IN AN ACCIDENT


please dismiss your stupid arse you coward living an illusion that someone else paid for your sins
AhmedBahgat

Here we go you bunch of cherry pickers:


YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

RASHAD KHALIFA: Thus, GOD said, O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

{The Quran ; 3:55}

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (55)


-> Can you see the words إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ, Inni Mutwafika Wa Rafiak, i.e. I will cause you to die (naturally) and will raise you

-> It is obvious to me that Rashad Khalifa translation to that specific verse is  the most accurate one, btw I disagree with most of his other stuff
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
David wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


No, it only denies that the Jews did it.



How arrogant and stupid you are David

here it is again,

Inni (i.e. Allah), Mutwafika (cause you to die naturally)

i.e. NO ONE KILLED HIM NOR HE DIED IN AN ACCIDENT


please dismiss your stupid arse you coward living an illusion that someone else paid for your sins


Why do you continue to state that the Quran says that Jesus would be caused to die naturally? The Quran does NOT say this at all, at any time, in any verse and we both know it.
Baal

Quote:

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (55)


-> Can you see the words إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ, Inni Mutwafika Wa Rafiak, i.e. I will cause you to die (naturally) and will raise you

-> It is obvious to me that Rashad Khalifa translation to that specific verse is  the most accurate one, btw I disagree with most of his other stuff

I need to add the next part of the sentence just to be thorough.

Inni Mutwafika Wa Rafiak, Wa Motaherak from those who kuffered

Allah will cause him to pass away, will raise him, and then cleanse him from those who kuffered.
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
Quote:

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (55)


-> Can you see the words إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ, Inni Mutwafika Wa Rafiak, i.e. I will cause you to die (naturally) and will raise you

-> It is obvious to me that Rashad Khalifa translation to that specific verse is  the most accurate one, btw I disagree with most of his other stuff

I need to add the next part of the sentence just to be thorough.

Inni Mutwafika Wa Rafiak, Wa Motaherak from those who kuffered

Allah will cause him to pass away, will raise him, and then cleanse him from those who kuffered.



Thank you pal for slam dunking fathom

cheers
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
David wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


No, it only denies that the Jews did it.



How arrogant and stupid you are David

here it is again,

Inni (i.e. Allah), Mutwafika (cause you to die naturally)

i.e. NO ONE KILLED HIM NOR HE DIED IN AN ACCIDENT


please dismiss your stupid arse you coward living an illusion that someone else paid for your sins


Why do you continue to state that the Quran says that Jesus would be caused to die naturally? The Quran does NOT say this at all, at any time, in any verse and we both know it.


Insistaning on your ignornace will take you no where but the ignorant hole

again, Wafaa in arabic is natural death, like pass away

Maqtal or Masraa is the word for those who die by being killed by another human or killed in an accident

that is why mister ignorant I have to include  the ward naturally, however I will use baal words in my translation (Pass away)
David

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
David wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


DOES THE QURAN DENY THAT JESUS WAS KILLED?


No, it only denies that the Jews did it.



How arrogant and stupid you are David

here it is again,

Inni (i.e. Allah), Mutwafika (cause you to die naturally)

i.e. NO ONE KILLED HIM NOR HE DIED IN AN ACCIDENT


please dismiss your stupid arse you coward living an illusion that someone else paid for your sins


Why do you continue to state that the Quran says that Jesus would be caused to die naturally? The Quran does NOT say this at all, at any time, in any verse and we both know it.


You are correct.

S. 5:117

"Never said did I to them Aught except what Thou Didst command me To say, to wit, `Worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; And I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt Amongst them; when thou Didst take me up (Arabic- tawaffaytani) Thou wast the Watcher Over them, and Thou art a witness to all things." Y. Ali

The phrase "I will take thee" and "when Thou didst take me" are forms of the Arabic word tawaffa. The term is nearly always used in the Quran to imply one who is taken at death.

M. Muhammad Ali gives this commentary:

"I'Ab says that the significance of mutawaffi-ka is mumitu-ka, i.e. I will cause thee to die (B. 65:12). According to LA, `You say tawaffa-hu-llahu when you mean Allah took his soul or caused to die.' And according to LL, it signifies "God took his soul (S, Q) (either at death or in sleep, see the Quran 6:60); or caused him to die (Msb)'. No other significance can be attached to the words when thus used. Some commentators say that Jesus remained dead for three hours; others say seven, and so on (Rz). But the word is used here to really show that the Jewish plans to cause Jesus' death on the cross would be frustrated and that he would afterwards die a natural death... Pickthall's translation is, O Jesus, I am gathering thee, and this is the Biblical idiom for causing to die. Yusuf Ali, in his first edition, translated the words as meaning I will cause thee to die, but in the second edition he changed it to I will take thee." (Ali, Holy Quran, p.147, f. 436)

Ali's note that the idiom "I am gathering thee" is used in the Bible to mean death is correct:

"Altogether, Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years. Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people." Genesis 25:7-8 NIV

"Isaac lived a hundred and eighty years. Then he breathed his last and died and was gathered to his people, old and full of years..." Gen. 35:28-29 NIV

"When Jacob had finished giving instructions to his sons, he drew his feet up into the bed, breathed his last and was gathered to his people." Gen. 49:33 NIV

All said, the Qur'an does not deny that Jesus died on the cross.  It only says the Jews did not do it, which they didn't.
AhmedBahgat

Look how the two clear cut ignorant are giving the hand of ignorance to each other after I exposed both of them

see, they are one liners type of ignorant

again you freaks, verse 3:55 clearly tells us that Jesus Tuwaffa, i.e. he died naturally you freaks

Unfortunately dumb bums you need two words in English to translate the word Wafaa

i.e.

Wafaa = Died naturally

Or

Wafaa = Pass away


Now piss off you freaks if you are not going to concede your ignorance and act like men
David

AhmedBahgat wrote:


How arrogant and stupid you are David


The fact remains that Muslim scholars can't decide what Surah 4:157-8 really means and you know it and so do the rest of us.  So who is stupid and arrogant now?
David

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look how the two clear cut ignorant are giving the hand of ignorance to each other after I exposed both of them

see, they are one liners type of ignorant

again you freaks, verse 3:55 clearly tells us that Jesus Tuwaffa, i.e. he died naturally you freaks

Unfortunately dumb bums you need two words in English to translate the word Wafaa

i.e.

Wafaa = Died naturally

Or

Wafaa = Pass away


Now piss off you freaks if you are not going to concede your ignorance and act like men


Stop shouting and making personal insults.  It makes you look like you have no faith in the Quran.  It makes you look unstable in your beliefs.  Is that what you want us to see?
AhmedBahgat

David wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look how the two clear cut ignorant are giving the hand of ignorance to each other after I exposed both of them

see, they are one liners type of ignorant

again you freaks, verse 3:55 clearly tells us that Jesus Tuwaffa, i.e. he died naturally you freaks

Unfortunately dumb bums you need two words in English to translate the word Wafaa

i.e.

Wafaa = Died naturally

Or

Wafaa = Pass away


Now piss off you freaks if you are not going to concede your ignorance and act like men


Stop shouting and making personal insults.  It makes you look like you have no faith in the Quran.


Haha, funny indeed

who is the one wwho have no faith in the Quran you freak, is me or you?

Quote:

 It makes you look unstable in your beliefs.


haha, thanks for the laugh again, but let me assume that I'm not stable in my belief, so fukin what?

Quote:

 Is that what you want us to see?


haha, thanks for the laugh again, that is a question that should never be asked by a blind

cheers
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:


haha, thanks for the laugh again, but let me assume that I'm not stable in my belief, so fukin what?



It's good that you acknowledge the possibility of being unstable in your beliefs.

Rock on, dude!
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


haha, thanks for the laugh again, but let me assume that I'm not stable in my belief, so fukin what?



It's good that you acknowledge the possibility being unstable in your beliefs.

Rock on, dude!


what an idiot you are too,  

is wishful thinking is what you always do on boards?

let me assume it again you freak, so fiukin what?

are you going to concede your clear cut ignornace regarding the word Wafaa?

if you not then I will have to dismiss ya for life and will never reply to you again

cheers
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


haha, thanks for the laugh again, but let me assume that I'm not stable in my belief, so fukin what?



It's good that you acknowledge the possibility being unstable in your beliefs.

Rock on, dude!


what an idiot you are too,  

is wishful thinking is what you always do on boards?

let me assume it again you freak, so fiukin what?

are you going to concede your clear cut ignornace regarding the word Wafaa?

if you not then I will have to dismiss ya for life and will never reply to you again

cheers


There is nothing to concede regarding "wafaa" because what you have said is simply not the truth.

Cheers yourself.
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


haha, thanks for the laugh again, but let me assume that I'm not stable in my belief, so fukin what?



It's good that you acknowledge the possibility being unstable in your beliefs.

Rock on, dude!


what an idiot you are too,  

is wishful thinking is what you always do on boards?

let me assume it again you freak, so fiukin what?

are you going to concede your clear cut ignornace regarding the word Wafaa?

if you not then I will have to dismiss ya for life and will never reply to you again

cheers


There is nothing to concede regarding "wafaa" because what you have said is simply not the truth.

Cheers yourself.


that is what you expect from a confused lying low kafir enemy of Islam

you have been dismissed for life
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:

that is what you expect from a confused lying low kafir enemy of Islam

you have been dismissed for life


But you have dismissed me many times before, yet I have not gone anywhere.

There must be something wrong with your "dismissal button." I would take it to a shop and get it fixed if I were you.
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:

that is what you expect from a confused lying low kafir enemy of Islam

you have been dismissed for life


But you have dismissed me many times before, yet I have not gone anywhere.

There must be something wrong with your "dismissal button." I would take it to a shop and get it fixed if I were you.


idiot, dismissed regarding this subject for life

i will be kind enough to reply to new issues that you may raise

my dismissal system is the most fair
BMZ

Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
According to some very reliable sources, Jesus actually died in a motor cycle accident!

I wish I had a time machine! Mad


Jesus was a Harley man.


lol!

The man rode in from no where and rode out leaving all puzzled. Perhaps his Harley was taken up by a whirlwind and taken into heavens. I don't know what were men of Galilee were looking at.
Fathom

BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
According to some very reliable sources, Jesus actually died in a motor cycle accident!

I wish I had a time machine! Mad


Jesus was a Harley man.


lol!

The man rode in from no where and rode out leaving all puzzled. Perhaps his Harley was taken up by a whirlwind and taken into heavens. I don't know what were men of Galilee were looking at.


Don't laugh too hard. Muhammad only rode a scooter and that's why he could never catch up to Jesus.
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:

that is what you expect from a confused lying low kafir enemy of Islam

you have been dismissed for life


But you have dismissed me many times before, yet I have not gone anywhere.

There must be something wrong with your "dismissal button." I would take it to a shop and get it fixed if I were you.


idiot, dismissed regarding this subject for life

i will be kind enough to reply to new issues that you may raise

my dismissal system is the most fair


But you have dismissed me for the same subject for life a few times now. Am i to assume that I have died several times only to be resurrected and dismissed by you each and every time?

You're Allah in disguise, aren't you? How's the weather up there?
BMZ

David wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


How arrogant and stupid you are David


The fact remains that Muslim scholars can't decide what Surah 4:157-8 really means and you know it and so do the rest of us.  So who is stupid and arrogant now?


David,

Forget about scholars. Listen to me and let me decide. Instead of translating the verses, which we have done umpteen times, let me just append below the message derived and conveyed:

1. Christians think that Jesus was killed on the cross and was dead on the cross.

Qur'aan says NO!

2. They refers to all the people, who were present there. There were mainly Jews and Romans there and surely there were others.

We are not in the blame game here. Whether he was hung up by the Jews or the Romans or both, does not matter to us, because we are not confirming who killed him. We simply say that the man was not killed. He did not die on the cross.

3. Now if you are taking our verses to mean that God made him dead and lifted him up, then again you are in a very sour pickle.

Why did I say so? Please read carefully. Because God Almighty never said that after making Jesus die and lifting him up, He sent him down again. Laughing Do those verses say anything like that?

There was no replacement or a substitute placed on the cross for Jesus. No other innocent man was put on the cross as a substitute for Jesus. May be God put a ram or a spotless lamb in human form as a substitue for Jesus. I am not sure but there is a possibility. Remember when Abraham was about to behead his son, God sent a ram?

There is something interesting in the Apocalypse of Peter, where Jesus was sitting on a tree laughing and telling Peter to look at the substitute which they were putting to shame. In other words, Jesus was standing there and laughing at all those people. I know that the Apocalypse of Peter was not canonised because it demolishes the alleged reports in the four canonised gospels.

Qur'aan is simply saying that the crucifixion was a hoax, a show staged. It looked to people as if he was killed. Then God says 'No!" He was saved by God. That in essence is the message.

Thus the verses of Qur'aan do not lend any support to your argument.

Who do I believe? Qur'aan or the Gospels? Naturally, Qur'aan. Why do I not believe in the Gospel accounts? Because they differ. How do they differ? John tells us that after Jesus was lifted down, he placed all the spices and wrapped up his body, which means ready for burial. The other three tell us a different story. Do you get what I am trying to say? Biblical accounts differ. They show confusion. Qur'aan clears the confusion. All that confusion is covered under "Shubbayha lahum".


Cheers
BMZ
BMZ

Fathom wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
According to some very reliable sources, Jesus actually died in a motor cycle accident!

I wish I had a time machine! Mad


Jesus was a Harley man.


lol!

The man rode in from no where and rode out leaving all puzzled. Perhaps his Harley was taken up by a whirlwind and taken into heavens. I don't know what were men of Galilee were looking at.


Don't laugh too hard. Muhammad only rode a scooter and that's why he could never catch up to Jesus.


Okay, I won' laugh but the truth is Jesus rode a donkey and Muhammad rode a camel. Camel is faster.
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:

that is what you expect from a confused lying low kafir enemy of Islam

you have been dismissed for life


But you have dismissed me many times before, yet I have not gone anywhere.

There must be something wrong with your "dismissal button." I would take it to a shop and get it fixed if I were you.


idiot, dismissed regarding this subject for life

i will be kind enough to reply to new issues that you may raise

my dismissal system is the most fair


But you have dismissed me for the same subject for life a few times now. Am i to assume that I have died several times only to be resurrected and dismissed by you each and every time?

How's the weather up there?


hmmm, you can consider that I'm too kind that I keep hoping that you will learn one day, one of the things that you should learn more about is your Arabic ignorance, no mocking here, it is the straight truth that is if you can handle it
AhmedBahgat

Hello All

I'm going out for about 3 hours, when i come back inshaallah, I will show you another Quran verse that should further slam dunk the ignorant on this thread

cheers
HomoErectus

Yeah... Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

show us some more about THE HOAX !

.
AhmedBahgat

Hello all

We have seen CLEARLY that fathom and david wrongly understand the meaning of the Arabic word Wafaa

Wafaa can be translated as death, however the word means natural death, i.e. a death that is caused by another cause but killed by another creature(s) or killed in an accident, in this case the death is not natural and can never be called in Arabic Wafaa, it has to be called Maqtal or Masraa

I have already shown 3:55 which included the compelling evidence that Jesus was Tawafa not killed, i.e. Jesus died naturally, this was CLEAR from the words “Inni Mutawafika”, i.e. “I will cause you to pass away”, “I” in the verse is referring to Allah

Let me now show you 5:117  where we read this time that Jesus is telling Allah the same thing, that Allah caused him to die naturally:

I did not say to them except what You enjoined me with: That worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You over everything are a Witness.

[The Quran ; 5:117]

 مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (117)

-> See: فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي , Fa Lamma Tawafaitani, i.e. When you caused me to die, again the death in here has to be natural because the word used to express it is Wafaa Tawafaitani

See how accurate the Quran is

This must send the ignorant back in their hole of ignorance for good

Cheers
All_Brains

I will respond tomorrow to this confusion in the Arabic word (Wafaa).
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
I will respond tomorrow to this confusion in the Arabic word (Wafaa).


Thank A_B

I was waiting to see if you will contrinute to this thread, Tomorrow inshaallah i hope I read your reply, however can you please confirm for now whom do you suggested of being confused regarding the word Wafaa?

it seems for me that fathom and david never heard about it before, so....?
David

BMZ wrote:


Forget about scholars.


The interpretation of scholars is very important.  They know Arabic.

BMZ wrote:


Listen to me and let me decide.


What are your credentials?  

BMZ wrote:


Instead of translating the verses, which we have done umpteen times, let me just append below the message derived and conveyed:

1. Christians think that Jesus was killed on the cross and was dead on the cross.

Qur'aan says NO!  


I don't believe it does.

BMZ wrote:


2. They refers to all the people, who were present there. There were mainly Jews and Romans there and surely there were others.


I don't agree with you.  Put Surah 4:157 in context with the verses before it and you will see it is speaking of the Jews and the Jews only.

BMZ wrote:


We are not in the blame game here. Whether he was hung up by the Jews or the Romans or both, does not matter to us, because we are not confirming who killed him. We simply say that the man was not killed. He did not die on the cross.


I don't believe the Quran says that Jesus didn't die.

BMZ wrote:


3. Now if you are taking our verses to mean that God made him dead and lifted him up, then again you are in a very sour pickle.

Why did I say so? Please read carefully. Because God Almighty never said that after making Jesus die and lifting him up, He sent him down again.  Do those verses say anything like that?


I am not following you.  When God took Jesus up, he did not send Jesus back down.

BMZ wrote:


There was no replacement or a substitute placed on the cross for Jesus. No other innocent man was put on the cross as a substitute for Jesus.


You mean according to the Quran?  If so, then why do most Muslims believe there was a substitute?

BMZ wrote:


May be God put a ram or a spotless lamb in human form as a substitue for Jesus. I am not sure but there is a possibility. Remember when Abraham was about to behead his son, God sent a ram?


You think maybe God made a ram look like Jesus?  lol  There is no mention of a lamb being substituted for Jesus in the Quran.  Above you said there was no substitute and now you are saying maybe a lamb was a substitute??

BMZ wrote:


There is something interesting in the Apocalypse of Peter, where Jesus was sitting on a tree laughing and telling Peter to look at the substitute which they were putting to shame. In other words, Jesus was standing there and laughing at all those people. I know that the Apocalypse of Peter was not canonised because it demolishes the alleged reports in the four canonised gospels.  


The Apocalypse of Peter was not canonized because it was written in the third century and was not written by Peter. The criteria for acceptance was:

1. Apostolic Origin - attributed to and/or based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their closest companions).

2. Universal Acceptance - acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the Mediterranean world (by the end of the fourth century).

3. Liturgical Use - read publicly along with the OT when early Christians gathered for the Lord's Supper (their weekly worship services).

4. Consistent Message - containing theological ideas compatible with other accepted Christian writings (incl. the divinity and humanity of Jesus)

The Apocalypse of Peter is docetic, a form of Gnosticism.  
Docetism from Wikipedia:

In Christianity, Docetism (from the Greek δοκέω [dokeō], "to seem") is the belief that Jesus' physical body was an illusion, as was his crucifixion; that is, Jesus only seemed to have a physical body and to physically die, but in reality he was incorporeal, a pure spirit, and hence could not physically die. Docetism has historically been regarded as heretical by most Christian theologians

This belief is most commonly attributed to the Gnostics, who believed that matter was evil, and hence that God would not take on a material body. This statement is rooted in the idea that a divine spark is imprisoned within the material body, and that the material body is in itself an obstacle, deliberately created by an evil lesser god (the demiurge) to prevent man from seeing his divine origin. Humanity is, in essence, asleep.
....
Islam teaches that Jesus was a fully human prophet, but also asserts that Jesus's crucifixion was an illusion.   I believe that the Docetics who traveled to Saudi Arabic had an influence on Muhammad and shows up in the Quran.

Since Christians and Muslims believe that Jesus was human and had a physical body, you can see that you will get no help from the Apocalypse of Peter.

BMZ wrote:


Qur'aan is simply saying that the crucifixion was a hoax, a show staged. It looked to people as if he was killed. Then God says 'No!" He was saved by God. That in essence is the message.  


A hoax staged by God?  A hoax that deceived Jesus' disciples and Jesus' mother.  

BMZ wrote:


Thus the verses of Qur'aan do not lend any support to your argument.  


I believe they do.

BMZ wrote:


Who do I believe? Qur'aan or the Gospels? Naturally, Qur'aan.


Of course, no surprise here.

BMZ wrote:



Why do I not believe in the Gospel accounts? Because they differ. How do they differ? John tells us that after Jesus was lifted down, he placed all the spices and wrapped up his body, which means ready for burial. The other three tell us a different story. Do you get what I am trying to say? Biblical accounts differ. They show confusion. Qur'aan clears the confusion. All that confusion is covered under "Shubbayha lahum".  


All the Gospel accounts and accounts in other NT books say that Jesus died and rose from the dead.  That is what you should concentrate on and there is no confusion about this fact at all.  The confusion is in the Quran as I have pointed out.

Maybe you could answer the questions AB was unable to answer:

1.  If Jesus was not crucified (put on the cross), who was crucified and how did they convince Jesus' followers, including his mother, that it was Jesus on that cross?

2.  If Jesus was not put on the cross when was he "taken to Allah?"

3.  Who was in the tomb?

4.  How do you explain the appearances to his disciples over a period of 40 days?

5.  The Muslim theory makes God out to be the biggest deceiver.  It would be God who was responsible for deceiving the followers of Jesus, including Mary, his mother.  How do you explain that?
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello all

We have seen CLEARLY that fathom and david wrongly understand the meaning of the Arabic word Wafaa

Wafaa can be translated as death, however the word means natural death, i.e. a death that is caused by another cause but killed by another creature(s) or killed in an accident, in this case the death is not natural and can never be called in Arabic Wafaa, it has to be called Maqtal or Masraa

I have already shown 3:55 which included the compelling evidence that Jesus was Tawafa not killed, i.e. Jesus died naturally, this was CLEAR from the words “Inni Mutawafika”, i.e. “I will cause you to pass away”, “I” in the verse is referring to Allah

Let me now show you 5:117  where we read this time that Jesus is telling Allah the same thing, that Allah caused him to die naturally:

I did not say to them except what You enjoined me with: That worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You over everything are a Witness.

[The Quran ; 5:117]

 مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (117)

-> See: فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي , Fa Lamma Tawafaitani, i.e. When you caused me to die, again the death in here has to be natural because the word used to express it is Wafaa Tawafaitani

See how accurate the Quran is

This must send the ignorant back in their hole of ignorance for good

Cheers


Since you claim that Allah caused Jesus to die, and demonstrated this so eloquently, how then was the death of Jesus natural?

Shocked
David

Fathom wrote:


Since you claim that Allah caused Jesus to die, and demonstrated this so eloquently, how then was the death of Jesus natural?  :


Great question.  The Ahmadis believe that Jesus died naturally at the age of 120 years and is buried somewhere in Kashmir.
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello all

We have seen CLEARLY that fathom and david wrongly understand the meaning of the Arabic word Wafaa

Wafaa can be translated as death, however the word means natural death, i.e. a death that is caused by another cause but killed by another creature(s) or killed in an accident, in this case the death is not natural and can never be called in Arabic Wafaa, it has to be called Maqtal or Masraa

I have already shown 3:55 which included the compelling evidence that Jesus was Tawafa not killed, i.e. Jesus died naturally, this was CLEAR from the words “Inni Mutawafika”, i.e. “I will cause you to pass away”, “I” in the verse is referring to Allah

Let me now show you 5:117  where we read this time that Jesus is telling Allah the same thing, that Allah caused him to die naturally:

I did not say to them except what You enjoined me with: That worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You over everything are a Witness.

[The Quran ; 5:117]

 مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (117)

-> See: فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي , Fa Lamma Tawafaitani, i.e. When you caused me to die, again the death in here has to be natural because the word used to express it is Wafaa Tawafaitani

See how accurate the Quran is

This must send the ignorant back in their hole of ignorance for good

Cheers


Since you claim that Allah caused Jesus to die, and demonstrated this so eloquently, how then was the death of Jesus natural?

Shocked


a silly question indeed

narural death can be caused by Allah in thousands of ays and since Allah didn't disclose how He caused Him to die naturally then no one will ever know now

cheers
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello all

We have seen CLEARLY that fathom and david wrongly understand the meaning of the Arabic word Wafaa

Wafaa can be translated as death, however the word means natural death, i.e. a death that is caused by another cause but killed by another creature(s) or killed in an accident, in this case the death is not natural and can never be called in Arabic Wafaa, it has to be called Maqtal or Masraa

I have already shown 3:55 which included the compelling evidence that Jesus was Tawafa not killed, i.e. Jesus died naturally, this was CLEAR from the words “Inni Mutawafika”, i.e. “I will cause you to pass away”, “I” in the verse is referring to Allah

Let me now show you 5:117  where we read this time that Jesus is telling Allah the same thing, that Allah caused him to die naturally:

I did not say to them except what You enjoined me with: That worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You over everything are a Witness.

[The Quran ; 5:117]

 مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (117)

-> See: فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي , Fa Lamma Tawafaitani, i.e. When you caused me to die, again the death in here has to be natural because the word used to express it is Wafaa Tawafaitani

See how accurate the Quran is

This must send the ignorant back in their hole of ignorance for good

Cheers


Since you claim that Allah caused Jesus to die, and demonstrated this so eloquently, how then was the death of Jesus natural?

Shocked


a silly question indeed

narural death can be caused by Allah in thousands of ays and since Allah didn't disclose how He caused Him to die naturally then no one will ever know now

cheers


But the verse does not disclose that Allah caused him to die naturally at all. It only says "I will cause you to die."

Allah also causes his enemies to die, according to your Quran. Are we to believe his enemies died naturally also?
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello all

We have seen CLEARLY that fathom and david wrongly understand the meaning of the Arabic word Wafaa

Wafaa can be translated as death, however the word means natural death, i.e. a death that is caused by another cause but killed by another creature(s) or killed in an accident, in this case the death is not natural and can never be called in Arabic Wafaa, it has to be called Maqtal or Masraa

I have already shown 3:55 which included the compelling evidence that Jesus was Tawafa not killed, i.e. Jesus died naturally, this was CLEAR from the words “Inni Mutawafika”, i.e. “I will cause you to pass away”, “I” in the verse is referring to Allah

Let me now show you 5:117  where we read this time that Jesus is telling Allah the same thing, that Allah caused him to die naturally:

I did not say to them except what You enjoined me with: That worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You over everything are a Witness.

[The Quran ; 5:117]

 مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (117)

-> See: فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي , Fa Lamma Tawafaitani, i.e. When you caused me to die, again the death in here has to be natural because the word used to express it is Wafaa Tawafaitani

See how accurate the Quran is

This must send the ignorant back in their hole of ignorance for good

Cheers


Since you claim that Allah caused Jesus to die, and demonstrated this so eloquently, how then was the death of Jesus natural?

Shocked


a silly question indeed

narural death can be caused by Allah in thousands of ays and since Allah didn't disclose how He caused Him to die naturally then no one will ever know now

cheers


But the verse does not disclose that Allah caused him to die naturally at all. It only says "I will cause you to die."



Keep showing your ignorance and your disability to comprehend and bloody understand the Arabic language

again you freak, the word used to express Jesus death is WAFAA (TWICE), I. FUKIN E. NATURAL DEATH

please dismiss yourself

Fathom wrote:
Allah also causes his enemies to die, according to your Quran. Are we to believe his enemies died naturally also?


look kid, when you talk quran, bring some verses with you, other than that you are dismissed
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello all

We have seen CLEARLY that fathom and david wrongly understand the meaning of the Arabic word Wafaa

Wafaa can be translated as death, however the word means natural death, i.e. a death that is caused by another cause but killed by another creature(s) or killed in an accident, in this case the death is not natural and can never be called in Arabic Wafaa, it has to be called Maqtal or Masraa

I have already shown 3:55 which included the compelling evidence that Jesus was Tawafa not killed, i.e. Jesus died naturally, this was CLEAR from the words “Inni Mutawafika”, i.e. “I will cause you to pass away”, “I” in the verse is referring to Allah

Let me now show you 5:117  where we read this time that Jesus is telling Allah the same thing, that Allah caused him to die naturally:

I did not say to them except what You enjoined me with: That worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You over everything are a Witness.

[The Quran ; 5:117]

 مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (117)

-> See: فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي , Fa Lamma Tawafaitani, i.e. When you caused me to die, again the death in here has to be natural because the word used to express it is Wafaa Tawafaitani

See how accurate the Quran is

This must send the ignorant back in their hole of ignorance for good

Cheers


Since you claim that Allah caused Jesus to die, and demonstrated this so eloquently, how then was the death of Jesus natural?

Shocked


a silly question indeed

narural death can be caused by Allah in thousands of ays and since Allah didn't disclose how He caused Him to die naturally then no one will ever know now

cheers


But the verse does not disclose that Allah caused him to die naturally at all. It only says "I will cause you to die."



Keep showing your ignorance and your disability to comprehend and bloody understand the Arabic language

again you freak, the word used to express Jesus death is WAFAA (TWICE), I. FUKIN E. NATURAL DEATH

please dismiss yourself

Fathom wrote:
Allah also causes his enemies to die, according to your Quran. Are we to believe his enemies died naturally also?


look kid, when you talk quran, bring some verses with you, other than that you are dismissed

"Wafaa" is not natural death. If someone is murdered it is more accurate to say "Kutil". or if martyred then "Istushhid". but "wafaa" does not only mean natural death.
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
"Wafaa" is not natural death. If someone is murdered it is more accurate to say "Kutil". or if martyred then "Istushhid". but "wafaa" does not only mean natural death.


how foolish you are

why don't you refer to some arabic language professionals before you spew your non sense after seeing another crap by the kafirs like you biting the dust

to be honest baal, I don't trust your arabic language knowledge, I trust A_B knowledge far more and I'm waiting for his comment, then I will show everyone how the Quran defrentiated  between the two types of death
BMZ

Baal wrote:
"Wafaa" is not natural death. If someone is murdered it is more accurate to say "Kutil". or if martyred then "Istushhid". but "wafaa" does not only mean natural death.


Baal,

Why don't you and Ahmed simply translate the following simple sentences into Arabic? We can compare and then you can bow out gracefully from this topic?  Laughing

Fathom, I would appreciate if you do the same. Thanks. David, you can ask Apple_Pie to translate for you.

1. Jesus died.

2. Jesus was killed.

3. Jesus died in his sleep.

4. Jesus was dead.

5. God lifted off Jesus.

6. Jesus went into heavens.

7. Good took away Jesus.

8. My brother died.

9. They murdered Jesus.

10. They killed Jesus.

Okay, now all of you translate in simple modern Arabic.

I will act as a moderator for this part along with All_Brains, if he agrees to.

BMZ
BMZ

David,

Replying to your response, will be a waste of my time. You put forward nothing. You have just wasted your own time.  Laughing

BMZ
BMZ

David wrote:
Fathom wrote:


Since you claim that Allah caused Jesus to die, and demonstrated this so eloquently, how then was the death of Jesus natural?  :


Great question.  The Ahmadis believe that Jesus died naturally at the age of 120 years and is buried somewhere in Kashmir.


I am not an Ahmadi.

Most Muslims and I, also, believe that Jesus lived long, after the so-called Crucifiction, somewhere hidden and died at a ripe old age. The 40 days mentioned could have been 40 years.

The Israeli archaeologists may discover his grave one day. If they do, Christianity will fall down flat.

Howver, I am sure the Christians will come with a new theory or a doctrine, saying that only Jesus' soul went up into the heavens and left the body on Earth. The cause of this confusion will be blamed on a misinformed translation from Greek, most likely logos. lol!

BMZ
All_Brains

Dear all

This my opinion on the subject.

Firstly we have to define the words death and kill from God's point of view.

God allegedly does not kill anyone, but causes people to die, through illnesses, old age or by being terminated pre-maturely through and accident or murder.

So from God's point of view everyone just dies regardless of the cause, otherwise one of Allah's 99 names would have
"The killer"!!!

Wafaa and Mout in Arabic means death and usually associated with natural death as opposed to"

Kutela (Killd deliberately)
Sore3a (Killd in an accident0
Ustush'heda (martyred for a good cause - God, nation and family)

HOWEVER

regardless of the causes of death humans still referred to their loved ones death, regardless of the causes as Wafaa.

Every morning in Arabic newspaper, you can find announcement of people death and regardless of the causes of the death you'll find the announcement starts with:

Tawafa ella rahmat Ellah (Died /passed away towards Allah's mercy).

The above shows that the word death (wafaa or mout) in fact encompasses all causes of the death and referred to by human in order to honour their dead, or of course from a deity's viewpoint. Everyone who's been killed, murdered, killed in an accident or martyred, have only died according to loved ones and the creator.

So my assessment of this "ini Mutuwafika" that God causes Jesus to die in any form or shape, however the fact that the other Surah mentioned that the Jews did not kill him or crucify him does indeed suggest a natural death.

Final verdict:

Muslims believe that Jesus was not killed on the cross and Christian do!

Atheists like myself believe that all of the above is figment of man's rich imagination!
Baal

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
"Wafaa" is not natural death. If someone is murdered it is more accurate to say "Kutil". or if martyred then "Istushhid". but "wafaa" does not only mean natural death.


Baal,

Why don't you and Ahmed simply translate the following simple sentences into Arabic? We can compare and then you can bow out gracefully from this topic?  Laughing

Fathom, I would appreciate if you do the same. Thanks. David, you can ask Apple_Pie to translate for you.

1. Jesus died.

2. Jesus was killed.

3. Jesus died in his sleep.

4. Jesus was dead.

5. God lifted off Jesus.

6. Jesus went into heavens.

7. Good took away Jesus.

8. My brother died.

9. They murdered Jesus.

10. They killed Jesus.

Okay, now all of you translate in simple modern Arabic.

I will act as a moderator for this part along with All_Brains, if he agrees to.

BMZ

The test is pointless. I can answer every single one about death with or without Tawafa.

Also Arabic does not have a differentiation between Kill and Murder. That was a concept in all the previous books and talmuds. Only koran lacked the differentiation.
BMZ

Baal wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
"Wafaa" is not natural death. If someone is murdered it is more accurate to say "Kutil". or if martyred then "Istushhid". but "wafaa" does not only mean natural death.


Baal,

Why don't you and Ahmed simply translate the following simple sentences into Arabic? We can compare and then you can bow out gracefully from this topic?  Laughing

Fathom, I would appreciate if you do the same. Thanks. David, you can ask Apple_Pie to translate for you.

1. Jesus died.

2. Jesus was killed.

3. Jesus died in his sleep.

4. Jesus was dead.

5. God lifted off Jesus.

6. Jesus went into heavens.

7. Good took away Jesus.

8. My brother died.

9. They murdered Jesus.

10. They killed Jesus.

Okay, now all of you translate in simple modern Arabic.

I will act as a moderator for this part along with All_Brains, if he agrees to.

BMZ

The test is pointless. I can answer every single one about death with or without Tawafa.

Also Arabic does not have a differentiation between Kill and Murder. That was a concept in all the previous books and talmuds. Only koran lacked the differentiation.



Rotflmao, Baal

I expected simple translations from you. It was not a test.

I have never done this before but after reading your cop out and evasive answer, I must say that you are dismissed.  Laughing

BMZ
Fathom

All_Brains wrote:
Dear all

This my opinion on the subject.

Firstly we have to define the words death and kill from God's point of view.

God allegedly does not kill anyone, but causes people to die, through illnesses, old age or by being terminated pre-maturely through and accident or murder.

So from God's point of view everyone just dies regardless of the cause, otherwise one of Allah's 99 names would have
"The killer"!!!

Wafaa and Mout in Arabic means death and usually associated with natural death as opposed to"

Kutela (Killd deliberately)
Sore3a (Killd in an accident0
Ustush'heda (martyred for a good cause - God, nation and family)

HOWEVER

regardless of the causes of death humans still referred to their loved ones death, regardless of the causes as Wafaa.

Every morning in Arabic newspaper, you can find announcement of people death and regardless of the causes of the death you'll find the announcement starts with:

Tawafa ella rahmat Ellah (Died /passed away towards Allah's mercy).

The above shows that the word death (wafaa or mout) in fact encompasses all causes of the death and referred to by human in order to honour their dead, or of course from a deity's viewpoint. Everyone who's been killed, murdered, killed in an accident or martyred, have only died according to loved ones and the creator.

So my assessment of this "ini Mutuwafika" that God causes Jesus to die in any form or shape, however the fact that the other Surah mentioned that the Jews did not kill him or crucify him does indeed suggest a natural death.

Final verdict:

Muslims believe that Jesus was not killed on the cross and Christian do!

Atheists like myself believe that all of the above is figment of man's rich imagination!


Fair enough, but the verse that says the Jews didn't kill or crucify him doesn't say someone else didn't do it either. It's like this:

1. John did not kill James.
2. Okay, well then who did?
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
Firstly we have to define the words death and kill from God's point of view.


Salam A_B

I agree totally with you, it has to be from His perspective not ours, now to achieve that, we can only resort to His words, or at least what is alleged to be His words

All_Brains wrote:
God allegedly does not kill anyone, but causes people to die, through illnesses, old age or by being terminated pre-maturely through and accident or murder.


That is not entirely accurate

According to Allah, everyone of us has an appointed term to live, I strongly believe the following and I seek forgiveness from Allah if I'm wrong. The appointed term maybe interupted by other humans (killing another or killing the self), however Allah in full control to allow the act of killing to go ahead or not

for example, if person A has an appointed term of 60 years (for argument sake)

while person A as at the age of 30, someone tried to kill him, we have two possibilities:

1) Allah allows it to happen
2) Allah does not allow it to happen

Now if Allah allows it to happen, that does  not mean that people has controlled His wish of the appointed term  rather it means that they have been tested by such fitnah, i.e. they stopped the appointed term from continuing on, this may sound silly by me, however if you look at the matter of killing further, you should recoginse that Allah have  allowed us  to even kill ourselves, i.e. those who commit suicide were apposing the appointed term Allah assigned for them and they just stopped it, now this is a huge crime from His perspective , almost on the same maginuted of killing another person,  if not more, because according to islam if you kill yourself then you die a kafir, while if you are a believer and killed someone else, you may be forgiven if there was merit to kill such person

For Jesus, we know well that Allah didn't allow the act of killing to happen.

It's really nothing but a case of desperation by those who want to use the quran to prove that jesus was killed by others, their claim holds no water because Jesus and his mother are important identities in the Quran,  so it makes no sense that the Quran only denies that the jews killed him (according to fathom and david) while he suppose to be killed by others other than the jews and we were never told about it in the Quran, very stupid indeed

All_Brains wrote:
So from God's point of view everyone just dies regardless of the cause,


I agree, however the cause can not disregarded, this is because of the following:

1) if you kill someone then you will held accountable and will be in possible big traouble
2) if you kill the self then you will be held accountable and will be in definite trouble

only if your appointed term is reached, then no one will be held accountabke for your death

makes great sense as far as I'm concerned, I will show you a few verses later that will confirm wwhat I just said inshaallah

All_Brains wrote:
otherwise one of Allah's 99 names would have
"The killer"!!!


of course and I agree with your again, however if He allows it to happen, He can't be a killer, this is because it is all part of the test, don't forget that anyone that is killed by whatever reason, Allah can raise him/her back with ease, i.e. killing others or killing the self is nothing but a test from Allah

All_Brains wrote:

Wafaa and Mout in Arabic means death and usually associated with natural death as opposed to"


The problem A_B that the arabs interchange words when they should have not, it happens in all languages as people live longer, the word Wafaa can only mean that such person reached his/her appointed term, however I agree that it means exactly the same as mout

All_Brains wrote:
Kutela (Killd deliberately)

Sore3a (Killd in an accident0


Sorry mate, the above two words are interchangeable, i.e. both mean killed deliberate or killed in an accident

All_Brains wrote:

Ustush'heda (martyred for a good cause - God, nation and family)


the above is only to describe the status of being killed in an accident or deliberatley by another person, while fighting in the way of Allah

All_Brains wrote:

HOWEVER

regardless of the causes of death humans still referred to their loved ones death, regardless of the causes as Wafaa.


That is with humans, not with Allah as I explained earlier

Every morning in Arabic newspaper, you can find announcement of people death and regardless of the causes of the death you'll find the announcement starts with:

All_Brains wrote:

Tawafa ella rahmat Ellah (Died /passed away towards Allah's mercy).


the word should only be used to describe those who completed their appointed term

it can't be describing the killing by another person or in an accident

All_Brains wrote:
The above shows that the word death (wafaa or mout) in fact encompasses all causes of the death and referred to by human in order to honour their dead,


Only by humans btw, I will show you a few examples from the Quran later on inshaallah

All_Brains wrote:
or of course from a deity's viewpoint. Everyone who's been killed, murdered, killed in an accident or martyred, have only died according to loved ones and the creator.


Not sure what you mean, the bottom line is this, if you kill yourself or kill another, i.e. interfer with the appointed term then you will be held accountable and if you don't then you can't be held accuontable for your Wafaa of yourself or anyone else

All_Brains wrote:
So my assessment of this "ini Mutuwafika" that God causes Jesus to die in any form or shape, however the fact that the other Surah mentioned that the Jews did not kill him or crucify him does indeed suggest a natural death.


and the fact that nothing was said that Jesus was killed by others other than the Jews


All_Brains wrote:
Final verdict:

Muslims believe that Jesus was not killed on the cross and Christian do!


That is not the verdict we are after mate

we are after the verdict regading, if the Quran denies that Jesus was killed or not (regardless on the cross or not)

All_Brains wrote:
Atheists like myself believe that all of the above is figment of man's rich imagination!


we know that very well mate, and I do understand that you want to promote your belief someway or another

salam
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
Fair enough, but the verse that says the Jews didn't kill or crucify him doesn't say someone else didn't do it either. It's like this:

1. John did not kill James.
2. Okay, well then who did?



That is if he is killed from the first place, kid

what is your proofs that someone else other than the jews killed him, kid?
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Fair enough, but the verse that says the Jews didn't kill or crucify him doesn't say someone else didn't do it either. It's like this:

1. John did not kill James.
2. Okay, well then who did?



That is if he is killed from the first place, kid

what is your proofs that someone else other than the jews killed him, kid?


Historical Roman records:

Cornelius Tacitus - AD 60 - AD 113

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."
AhmedBahgat

Salam A_B

Let me now show you how dying naturally is not the same as being killed, from the perspective of Allah:


And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed before him; so if he died or is killed you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will not harm Allah a thing,  and Allah will reward the grateful.

[The Quran ; 3:144]

وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ أَفَإِن مَّاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَى أَعْقَابِكُمْ وَمَن يَنقَلِبْ عَلَىَ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَن يَضُرَّ اللّهَ شَيْئًا وَسَيَجْزِي اللّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ (144)

-> See, Allah is saying: If Mohammed died OR is killed: أَفَإِن مَّاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ, Afa Inn Mata Aw Qutil, i.e. so if he died or is killed , now if it only means death from Allah perspective then it would have been said: أَفَإِن مَّاتَ , Afa Inn Mata , i.e. so if he died, Allah does not need to tell us: أَوْ قُتِلَ, Aw Qutil, i.e. or is killed

Here is another 3 examples from the same sura:

156: O you who have believed! Be not like those who disbelieved and said to their brethren when they travelled in the land or engaged in fighting: Had they been with us, they would not have died nor been killed; so Allah makes this to be a regret in their hearts; and Allah gives life and causes death and Allah is all-Seeing of what you do.

157: And if you are killed in the way of Allah or you died, then forgiveness from Allah and mercy are better than what they amass.

158: And if you died or you are killed, then to Allah shall you be gathered.

[The Quran ; 3:156-158]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَكُونُواْ كَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَقَالُواْ لإِخْوَانِهِمْ إِذَا ضَرَبُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ أَوْ كَانُواْ غُزًّى لَّوْ كَانُواْ عِندَنَا مَا مَاتُواْ وَمَا قُتِلُواْ لِيَجْعَلَ اللّهُ ذَلِكَ حَسْرَةً فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ وَاللّهُ يُحْيِي وَيُمِيتُ وَاللّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ (156)
وَلَئِن قُتِلْتُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ أَوْ مُتُّمْ لَمَغْفِرَةٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَحْمَةٌ خَيْرٌ مِّمَّا يَجْمَعُونَ (157)
وَلَئِن مُّتُّمْ أَوْ قُتِلْتُمْ لإِلَى الله تُحْشَرُونَ (158)

-> Verse 156: مَا مَاتُواْ وَمَا قُتِلُواْ , Ma Matu Wa Ma Qutilu, i.e. they would not have died nor been killed , again, if it only means death from Allah perspective then it would have been said: مَا مَاتُواْ , Ma Matu, i.e. they would not have died , Allah does not need to tell us: وَمَا قُتِلُواْ , Wa Ma Qutilu, i.e. nor been killed

-> Verse 157: وَلَئِن قُتِلْتُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ أَوْ مُتُّمْ , Wa La Inn Qutiltum Fi Sabil Allah Aw Muttum, i.e. And if you are killed in the way of Allah or you died , again, if it only means death from Allah perspective then it would have been said: وَلَئِن قُتِلْتُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ , Wa La Inn Qutiltum Fi Sabil Allah , i.e. And if you are killed in the way of Allah, Allah does not need to tell us: أَوْ مُتُّمْ , Aw Muttum, i.e. or you died

-> Verse 158: وَلَئِن مُّتُّمْ أَوْ قُتِلْتُمْ , Wa La Inn Muttum Aw Qutiltum, i.e. And if you died or you are killed , again, if it only means death from Allah perspective then it would have been said: وَلَئِن مُّتُّمْ , Wa La Inn Muttum , i.e. , Allah does not need to tell us: أَوْ قُتِلْتُمْ , Aw Qutiltum , i.e. or you are killed

Here is another example:

And (as for) those who fly in Allah's way and then they have been killed or died, Allah will most certainly grant them a goodly sustenance, and most surely Allah is the best Giver of sustenance.

[The Quran ; 22:58]

وَالَّذِينَ هَاجَرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ قُتِلُوا أَوْ مَاتُوا لَيَرْزُقَنَّهُمُ اللَّهُ رِزْقًا حَسَنًا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُوَ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ (5Cool

-> See: ثُمَّ قُتِلُوا أَوْ مَاتُوا , Thumma Qutilu Aw Matu , i.e. then they have been killed or died , again, if it only means death from Allah perspective then it would have been said: ثُمَّ قُتِلُوا , Thumma Qutilu , i.e. then they have been killed , Allah does not need to tell us: أَوْ مَاتُوا , Aw Matu , i.e. or they died

And finally, another example:

Say: Flight shall not do you any good if you run away from the death or the killing, and in that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little.

[The Quran ; 33:16]

قُل لَّن يَنفَعَكُمُ الْفِرَارُ إِن فَرَرْتُم مِّنَ الْمَوْتِ أَوِ الْقَتْلِ وَإِذًا لَّا تُمَتَّعُونَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا (16)

-> See: إِن فَرَرْتُم مِّنَ الْمَوْتِ أَوِ الْقَتْلِ , In Farartum Min Al Mout Aw Al Qatl , i.e. if you run away from the death or the killing , again, if it only means death from Allah perspective then it would have been said: إِن فَرَرْتُم مِّنَ الْمَوْتِ , In Farartum Min Al Mout , i.e. if you run away from the death , Allah does not need to tell us: أَوِ الْقَتْلِ , Aw Al Qatl , i.e.  or the killing


Salam mate
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Fair enough, but the verse that says the Jews didn't kill or crucify him doesn't say someone else didn't do it either. It's like this:

1. John did not kill James.
2. Okay, well then who did?



That is if he is killed from the first place, kid

what is your proofs that someone else other than the jews killed him, kid?


Historical Roman records:

Cornelius Tacitus - AD 60 - AD 113

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."


LOL

your evidences above does not say that Pontius Pilate killed jesus. Are you a clear cut jerk?

what you brought above only says that Jesus SUFFERED the extreme penalty under Pontius Pilate


Please piss off
David

BMZ wrote:
David,

Replying to your response, will be a waste of my time. You put forward nothing. You have just wasted your own time.  Laughing

BMZ


I answered all of your questions.  It was not a waste of time.  If you can't think of a response, that is alright.
All_Brains

Fathom wrote:


Fair enough, but the verse that says the Jews didn't kill or crucify him doesn't say someone else didn't do it either. It's like this:

1. John did not kill James.
2. Okay, well then who did?


Hello Fathom

The Surah confirms that Jesus was not killed, neither crucified but was raised by Allah. In other Surahs God explains that he caused Jesus to die, so logically speaking the following are all possible:

1. Jesus was not killed by the Jews.
2. Jesus died of natural causes or illness.
3. Jesus was killed by non-Jews.
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:


Fair enough, but the verse that says the Jews didn't kill or crucify him doesn't say someone else didn't do it either. It's like this:

1. John did not kill James.
2. Okay, well then who did?



All_Brains wrote:
Hello Fathom

The Surah confirms that Jesus was not killed, neither crucified but was raised by Allah. In other Surahs God explains that he caused Jesus to die, so logically speaking the following are all possible:

1. Jesus was not killed by the Jews.


Of course

All_Brains wrote:
2. Jesus died of natural causes or illness.


That must be the only possibilty because Wafaa means that jesus completed his appointed term

All_Brains wrote:

3. Jesus was killed by non-Jews.


That can not be the case because it will contradict the Wafaa of Jesus, because killing means the appointed term was terminated and not completed

Salam
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam A_B

Let me now show you how dying naturally is not the same as being killed, from the perspective of Allah:

Salam mate


Salam Ahmed

The verses you quoted are God speaking from the human perspective of being dead due to natural causes, fatal accident, terminal illness or deliberate murder.

However when God speaks from his own perspective then it's (ceasing to exist in physical form - aka death)

Since God is omniscient, he is in away aware of someone's murder and since he designed all actions in advance then in a way, he caused that person to be killed. It's really termination of life one way or another!

Ini Mutwafika is God speaking in first person and there is no other verse in the Quran includes (Ini Qatleka) as from Gods perspective God does not kill, but always cause to die. Humans kill and in a way achieve God's will!

Hope this is more clear!
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam A_B

Let me now show you how dying naturally is not the same as being killed, from the perspective of Allah:

Salam mate


Salam Ahmed

The verses you quoted are God speaking from the human perspective of being dead due to natural causes, fatal accident, terminal illness or deliberate murder.

However when God speaks from his own perspective then it's (ceasing to exist in physical form - aka death)

Since God is omniscient, he is in away aware of someone's murder and since he designed all actions in advance then in a way, he caused that person to be killed. It's really termination of life one way or another!

Ini Mutwafika is God speaking in first person and there is no other verse in the Quran includes (Ini Qatleka) as from Gods perspective God does not kill, but always cause to die. Humans kill and in a way achieve God's will!

Hope this is more clear!


Salam A_B

Can you please support your claims with Quran verses?

Now, for us a human that is killed is the same as a human that is dead, it makes absolutely no difference from our perpective

a man that is killed is a dead man

but did this man complete his appointed term?


Salam mate
AhmedBahgat

See A_B

They call Mout, Wafaa, because it is a metaphor to mean COMPLETED A TERM

Take care
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
See A_B

They call Mout, Wafaa, because it is a metaphor to mean COMPLETED A TERM

Take care


Again Ahmed, you see the term from a human perspective. 70, 80 or may be 90 years is a full life to us.

BUT, what if Allah's will is for someone to die at the age of 18??? To the family of the kid, he was too young to die, but to God this person's term was set at 18 years before he grand parents were even born.
AhmedBahgat

AhmedBahgat wrote:
See A_B

They call Mout, Wafaa, because it is a metaphor to mean COMPLETED A TERM

Take care


All_Brains wrote:
Again Ahmed, you see the term from a human perspective. 70, 80 or may be 90 years is a full life to us.


Mate, I care less how long the term is, in fact it can be 1,2,3 years as well

there are many who die naturally at these ages, BTW dying because of illiness is considered dying naturally

All_Brains wrote:
BUT, what if Allah's will is for someone to die at the age of 18???


and 1, and 2 and 3

it is all part of the test pal, let me show you this verse:

And We shall try you with some of the fear and the hunger, as well loss in the money and in the lives and in the plants produce; and give glad tiding to those who are patient

[Al Quran ; 2:155]
وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الْخَوفْ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِّنَ الأَمَوَالِ وَالأنفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ (155)
-> See: And We shall try you with some of the fear and the hunger, as well loss in the money and in the lives and in the plants produce;, i.e. Someone maybe tried by a child of his or her dying at the age of 1,2,3 etc, those who died very young but naturally are considered to complete their appointed term

Let's now look at the following verse explaining the appointed term:

O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is caused to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the aging part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; and you see the earth sterile land, but when We send down on it the water, it stirs and swells and brings forth of every kind a beautiful herbage.

[Al Quran ; 22:5]
 يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّنَ الْبَعْثِ فَإِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ مِن مُّضْغَةٍ مُّخَلَّقَةٍ وَغَيْرِ مُخَلَّقَةٍ لِّنُبَيِّنَ لَكُمْ وَنُقِرُّ فِي الْأَرْحَامِ مَا نَشَاء إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ثُمَّ نُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْلَا يَعْلَمَ مِن بَعْدِ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا وَتَرَى الْأَرْضَ هَامِدَةً فَإِذَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْهَا الْمَاء اهْتَزَّتْ وَرَبَتْ وَأَنبَتَتْ مِن كُلِّ زَوْجٍ بَهِيجٍ (5)

-> See how the appointed term is explained: وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْلَا يَعْلَمَ مِن بَعْدِ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا, i.e. and of you is he who is caused to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the aging part of life, i.e. of us are those who are caused to die before they reach the aging years of their life. whatever that maybe, 1 year old, or even 1 month old


All_Brains wrote:
To the family of the kid, he was too young to die, but to God this person's term was set at 18 years before he grand parents were even born.


That is 100% right, it is nothing but a test to the family. that is based on the following two possibilities:

1) their child died naturally at the age of 18, i.e. the appointed term for the chold was 18 years old

2) their child died bu either killed in by someone or killed in accident and Allah allowed it to happen, however in this case we can not say that the child completed the appointed term nor we can even know how long the appointed term for such person is, but yet again if allowed then it is nothing but a test to the family (and the murderer if it was a killing)

Salam
Tvebak

Salam all, hope you are well.

Just to contribute to the confusions of "death" I have a small input, wether you like it or not.

The confusion is what "Wafaa" exactly means, right? - wether it's a specific way of dying or wether it's just refering to death in every aspect. And the debate has included some occurences of the similar word "Mout", which could be said to have the same confusion regarding it.

Well Ahmed showed that in some verses there was some distinction between "mout" as death and "Kutela" to killed (his examples was 3:144, 3:156-158, 22:58 and 33:16). There is though several verses in the qur'an which shows that "mout" is used to refer to all kind of death, wether 'natural', accidents or killings, but the most compelling is 3:185:

Quote:
Every soul shall taste of death, and you shall only be paid fully your reward on the resurrection day; then whoever is removed far away from the fire and is made to enter the garden he indeed has attained the object; and the life of this world is nothing but a provision of vanities.

Kullu nafsin tha-iqatu almawti wa-innama tuwaffawna ojoorakum yawma alqiyamati faman zuhziha AAani alnnari waodkhila aljannata faqad faza wama alhayatu alddunya illa mataAAu alghuroori


Here it's says that every "soul" shall taste "death". This obviously refers to every kind of dying.

But what about "wafaa". It seems to refer to that the "souls" is being taken, ie. the person is dead. Not speculating how the death occured, just saying that the "soul" is taken.

But we have fx 2.240:

Quote:
And those of you who die and leave wives behind, (make) a bequest in favor of their wives of maintenance for a year without turning (them) out, then if they themselves go away, there is no blame on you for what they do of lawful deeds by themselves, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Waallatheena yutawaffawna minkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatan li-azwajihim mataAAan ila alhawli ghayra ikhrajin fa-in kharajna fala junaha AAalaykum fee ma faAAalna fee anfusihinna min maAAroofin waAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun


If we are to argue that "wafaa" only refers to those who dies 'naturally', does 2.240 ,and also 2.234, not deal with people where the husband has been killed or died by accident?

But we also have 16.70:

Quote:
And Allah has created you, then He causes you to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful.

WaAllahu khalaqakum thumma yatawaffakum waminkum man yuraddu ila arthali alAAumuri likay la yaAAlama baAAda AAilmin shay-an inna Allaha AAaleemun qadeerun


It says very clearly that we are both created and caused to die (or our souls is taken)  by"god". One should think that this include all people who have died in different ways, ie. both those who dies 'naturally', those who gets killed etc.

And that's how I read it; "wafaa" is not, necessarily, refering to any specific way of dying, in the way it's used in the qur'an, just that people have died.

Cheers
Fathom

Tvebak wrote:
Salam all, hope you are well.

Just to contribute to the confusions of "death" I have a small input, wether you like it or not.

The confusion is what "Wafaa" exactly means, right? - wether it's a specific way of dying or wether it's just refering to death in every aspect. And the debate has included some occurences of the similar word "Mout", which could be said to have the same confusion regarding it.

Well Ahmed showed that in some verses there was some distinction between "mout" as death and "Kutela" to killed (his examples was 3:144, 3:156-158, 22:58 and 33:16). There is though several verses in the qur'an which shows that "mout" is used to refer to all kind of death, wether 'natural', accidents or killings, but the most compelling is 3:185:

Quote:
Every soul shall taste of death, and you shall only be paid fully your reward on the resurrection day; then whoever is removed far away from the fire and is made to enter the garden he indeed has attained the object; and the life of this world is nothing but a provision of vanities.

Kullu nafsin tha-iqatu almawti wa-innama tuwaffawna ojoorakum yawma alqiyamati faman zuhziha AAani alnnari waodkhila aljannata faqad faza wama alhayatu alddunya illa mataAAu alghuroori


Here it's says that every "soul" shall taste "death". This obviously refers to every kind of dying.

But what about "wafaa". It seems to refer to that the "souls" is being taken, ie. the person is dead. Not speculating how the death occured, just saying that the "soul" is taken.

But we have fx 2.240:

Quote:
And those of you who die and leave wives behind, (make) a bequest in favor of their wives of maintenance for a year without turning (them) out, then if they themselves go away, there is no blame on you for what they do of lawful deeds by themselves, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Waallatheena yutawaffawna minkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatan li-azwajihim mataAAan ila alhawli ghayra ikhrajin fa-in kharajna fala junaha AAalaykum fee ma faAAalna fee anfusihinna min maAAroofin waAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun


If we are to argue that "wafaa" only refers to those who dies 'naturally', does 2.240 ,and also 2.234, not deal with people where the husband has been killed or died by accident?

But we also have 16.70:

Quote:
And Allah has created you, then He causes you to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful.

WaAllahu khalaqakum thumma yatawaffakum waminkum man yuraddu ila arthali alAAumuri likay la yaAAlama baAAda AAilmin shay-an inna Allaha AAaleemun qadeerun


It says very clearly that we are both created and caused to die (or our souls is taken)  by"god". One should think that this include all people who have died in different ways, ie. both those who dies 'naturally', those who gets killed etc.

And that's how I read it; "wafaa" is not, necessarily, refering to any specific way of dying, in the way it's used in the qur'an, just that people have died.

Cheers


My sentiments exactly.
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Fair enough, but the verse that says the Jews didn't kill or crucify him doesn't say someone else didn't do it either. It's like this:

1. John did not kill James.
2. Okay, well then who did?



That is if he is killed from the first place, kid

what is your proofs that someone else other than the jews killed him, kid?


Historical Roman records:

Cornelius Tacitus - AD 60 - AD 113

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."


LOL

your evidences above does not say that Pontius Pilate killed jesus. Are you a clear cut jerk?

what you brought above only says that Jesus SUFFERED the extreme penalty under Pontius Pilate


Please piss off


For your uneducated benefit, the words "extreme penalty" means death in ancient Roman traditions, and refers specifically to crucifixions. The Roman statesman Cicero called it "the most cruel and disgusting penalty" (Verrem 2:5.165) and "the most extreme penalty."  It can mean nothing else.

You're grasping at straws, Muslim.
AhmedBahgat

Hello all

Here is TV spewing his normal ignorance cocerning the Arabic Quran, See how he never answered the question of the thread, does the Quran deny that jesus was killed by whoever?

Now, let me see what he has to say:

Tvebak wrote:
Just to contribute to the confusions of "death" I have a small input, wether you like it or not.


You can’t contribute to a confusion  pal, however you are welcome to clear any confusion if you can

Tvebak wrote:
The confusion is what "Wafaa" exactly means, right? - wether it's a specific way of dying or wether it's just refering to death in every aspect. And the debate has included some occurences of the similar word "Mout", which could be said to have the same confusion regarding it.


No confusion for the word Wafaa or Mout for the knowledgeable

The word Wafa means that the appointed term is completed and the soul must return to Allah

Now if someone is killed, how do you know that the soul returned to Allah on the spot?

We can’t know that it happned on the spot, possibly the killed person soul stayed there until the appointed term ended then  the angels come and took his soul, everything is possible with Allah

Tvebak wrote:
Well Ahmed showed that in some verses there was some distinction between "mout" as death and "Kutela" to killed (his examples was 3:144, 3:156-158, 22:58 and 33:16). There is though several verses in the qur'an which shows that "mout" is used to refer to all kind of death, wether 'natural', accidents or killings, but the most compelling is 3:185:


Quote:
Every soul shall taste of death, and you shall only be paid fully your reward on the resurrection day; then whoever is removed far away from the fire and is made to enter the garden he indeed has attained the object; and the life of this world is nothing but a provision of vanities.


Tvebak wrote:

Kullu nafsin tha-iqatu almawti wa-innama tuwaffawna ojoorakum yawma alqiyamati faman zuhziha AAani alnnari waodkhila aljannata faqad faza wama alhayatu alddunya illa mataAAu alghuroori


the above verse is not talking about the KILLING, it is only talking about Mout or Wafaa when the appointed term is finished, and the angels of death come to take the soul, i.e. your argument holds no water, because we dont know if someone that is  killed by another, the angel of death come on the spot to take the soul of the killed person or wait till the appointed term is finished,  i.e. the soul may stay there until the appointed term is finished, it can be like a coma and surely a person in a coma feels no time

Tvebak wrote:

Here it's says that every "soul" shall taste "death". This obviously refers to every kind of dying.


Wrong, it only refers to the natural DEATH when the appointed term is completed, and only then the soul will taste the death, it may not taste it on the spot if been killed by another, and on such case the soul will stay in the dead body or somewhere else until the appointed term is completed, of course what I’m claiming is conjecture but that is how the Arabic words are treated accurately not wishfully thinking

Tvebak wrote:
But what about "wafaa".


Wafaa is Mout (metaphorically)

Tvebak wrote:
It seems to refer to that the "souls" is being taken, ie. the person is dead. Not speculating how the death occured, just saying that the "soul" is taken.


Exactly, i.e. when the soul exit the body after the appointed term is finished the person has Tuwaffa

Tvebak wrote:

But we have fx 2.240:


Quote:
And those of you who die and leave wives behind, (make) a bequest in favor of their wives of maintenance for a year without turning (them) out, then if they themselves go away, there is no blame on you for what they do of lawful deeds by themselves, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Waallatheena yutawaffawna minkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatan li-azwajihim mataAAan ila alhawli ghayra ikhrajin fa-in kharajna fala junaha AAalaykum fee ma faAAalna fee anfusihinna min maAAroofin waAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun


Again the above verse is talking about Wafaa, i.e. the appointed term, however we know that a person who is killed won’t come back to life and his/her appointed term will eventually be reached, therefore the above verse regarding the widows also apply to those who are killed (logically speaking)

Tvebak wrote:
If we are to argue that "wafaa" only refers to those who dies 'naturally', does 2.240 ,and also 2.234, not deal with people where the husband has been killed or died by accident?


Yes because when they are killed they will never come back ,and based on that, their appointed time (Wafaa) must be reached sooner or later

Tvebak wrote:
But we also have 16.70:


Quote:
And Allah has created you, then He causes you to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful.

Quote:

WaAllahu khalaqakum thumma yatawaffakum waminkum man yuraddu ila arthali alAAumuri likay la yaAAlama baAAda AAilmin shay-an inna Allaha AAaleemun qadeerun


I posted this verse already, again, it is talking about the Wafaa when the appointed term is finished

Tvebak wrote:
It says very clearly that we are both created and caused to die (or our souls is taken)


the verse does not have the word BOTH, who is BOTH?

Tvebak wrote:

 by"god". One should think that this include all people who have died in different ways, ie. both those who dies 'naturally', those who gets killed etc.


Only when their appointed term is reached, and surely it will be reached sooner or later after they have been killed, and when it is reached the angels of death must come to take the soul back and initiate the promised bashing party for the kafirs

Tvebak wrote:

And that's how I read it; "wafaa" is not, necessarily, refering to any specific way of dying, in the way it's used in the qur'an, just that people have died.

Cheers


Haha, funny indeed that you hear such from someone who lack Arabic and does not believe in the Quran

cheers
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Fair enough, but the verse that says the Jews didn't kill or crucify him doesn't say someone else didn't do it either. It's like this:

1. John did not kill James.
2. Okay, well then who did?



That is if he is killed from the first place, kid

what is your proofs that someone else other than the jews killed him, kid?


Historical Roman records:

Cornelius Tacitus - AD 60 - AD 113

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."


LOL

your evidences above does not say that Pontius Pilate killed jesus. Are you a clear cut jerk?

what you brought above only says that Jesus SUFFERED the extreme penalty under Pontius Pilate


Please piss off


For your uneducated benefit, the words "extreme penalty" means death in ancient Roman traditions, and refers specifically to crucifixions. The Roman statesman Cicero called it "the most cruel and disgusting penalty" (Verrem 2:5.165) and "the most extreme penalty."  It can mean nothing else.

You're grasping at straws, Muslim.


Look you wishful thinking kid, extreme penalty does not mean put to death

you are dismissed
Tvebak

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello all

Here is TV spewing his normal ignorance cocerning the Arabic Quran, See ho he never answered the question of the thread, does the Quarn deny that jesus was killed by whoever?


Erhhm there was a lot of people who was discussing the word "wafaa" in the qur'an and that was what I commented on. Your started early on arguing that "wafaa" means 'natural' death. And my argument was that "wafaa" does not specificly relate to 'natural' death.  

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Tvebak wrote:
The confusion is what "Wafaa" exactly means, right? - wether it's a specific way of dying or wether it's just refering to death in every aspect. And the debate has included some occurences of the similar word "Mout", which could be said to have the same confusion regarding it.


No confusion for the word Wafaa or Mout for the knowledgeable

The word Wafa means that the appointed term is completed and the soul must return to Allah

Now if someone is killed, how do you klnow that the sould returned to Allah?

We can’t know that it happned on the spot, possibly the killed person soul stayed there until the appointed term ends then  the angels come and take his soul, everything is possible on Allah


Possible, but that does not change anything. It's irrelevant to the discussion wether the qur'an says that Jesus was killed or not.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Tvebak wrote:
Well Ahmed showed that in some verses there was some distinction between "mout" as death and "Kutela" to killed (his examples was 3:144, 3:156-158, 22:58 and 33:16). There is though several verses in the qur'an which shows that "mout" is used to refer to all kind of death, wether 'natural', accidents or killings, but the most compelling is 3:185:


Quote:
Every soul shall taste of death, and you shall only be paid fully your reward on the resurrection day; then whoever is removed far away from the fire and is made to enter the garden he indeed has attained the object; and the life of this world is nothing but a provision of vanities.


Tvebak wrote:

Kullu nafsin tha-iqatu almawti wa-innama tuwaffawna ojoorakum yawma alqiyamati faman zuhziha AAani alnnari waodkhila aljannata faqad faza wama alhayatu alddunya illa mataAAu alghuroori


the above verse is not talking about the KILLING it is only talking about Mout or Wafa when the appointed term, is finished and the angels of death come to take the sould, i.e. your argument holds no water, because we d onlt kno if someone is kills another, the angel of death come on the spot to take ths ould of the killed person, again, the soul may stay there until the appointed term is finished, it can be like a coma and surely a person in a coma feels no time


Sure if that fits your desire, but again it does not change anything regarding the subject.

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Tvebak wrote:

Here it's says that every "soul" shall taste "death". This obviously refers to every kind of dying.


Wrong, it only refers to the natural DEATH when the appointed term is completed, and only then the soul will taste the death, it may not taste if been killed by another, and on such case the soul will stay in the dead body until the appointed term is complete, of course what I’m claiming ic conjecture but that is how the Arabic words are treated accurately not wishfully thinking


Look mate you keep spewing this silly crap out. A person who is killed is dead!
But following your logic, your are actually not arguing that it's a 'natural' death. Your are arguing that "the appointed term" is completed, regardless wether it's a 'natural' death or not.

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
It seems to refer to that the "souls" is being taken, ie. the person is dead. Not speculating how the death occured, just saying that the "soul" is taken.


Exactly, i.e. when the soul exit the body after the appointed term is finished the person has Tuwaffa


Yes that's how I understand it. Now I also consider that being killed is the end of "the appointed term" according to the qur'an, but again it's irrelevant.

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Tvebak wrote:

But we have fx 2.240:

Quote:
And those of you who die and leave wives behind, (make) a bequest in favor of their wives of maintenance for a year without turning (them) out, then if they themselves go away, there is no blame on you for what they do of lawful deeds by themselves, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Waallatheena yutawaffawna minkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatan li-azwajihim mataAAan ila alhawli ghayra ikhrajin fa-in kharajna fala junaha AAalaykum fee ma faAAalna fee anfusihinna min maAAroofin waAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun


Again the above verse is talking about Wafaa, i.e. the appointed term, however we know that a person who is killed won’t come back to life and his/her appointed term will eventually be reached, therefore the above verse regarding the widows also apply to those who are killed (logically speaking)


You keed arguing, but again irrelevant.

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
If we are to argue that "wafaa" only refers to those who dies 'naturally', does 2.240 ,and also 2.234, not deal with people where the husband has been killed or died by accident?


Yes because when they are killed they will never come back and based on that their appointed time (Wafaa) must be reached sooner or later


Sure you obviously want it that way, but again irrelevant.

[quote="AhmedBahgat"]
Tvebak wrote:
But we also have 16.70:

Quote:
And Allah has created you, then He causes you to die, and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful.

Quote:

WaAllahu khalaqakum thumma yatawaffakum waminkum man yuraddu ila arthali alAAumuri likay la yaAAlama baAAda AAilmin shay-an inna Allaha AAaleemun qadeerun


I posted this verse already, again, it is talking about the Wafaa when the appointed term is finished


Sure.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Tvebak wrote:
It says very clearly that we are both created and caused to die (or our souls is taken)


verse does not have the word BOTH, who is BOTH?


It does not. And what does this has to do anything, besides your desire to be a polemic?

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Tvebak wrote:

 by"god". One should think that this include all people who have died in different ways, ie. both those who dies 'naturally', those who gets killed etc.


Only when their appointed term is reached, and surely it will be reached sooner or later after they have been killed, and when it is reached the angels of death must come to take the soul back and initiate the promised bashing party for the kafirs


ahh you had to show your books love for kafirs, you gotta love that, it's cute Smile . But to the other part, sure.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Tvebak wrote:

And that's how I read it; "wafaa" is not, necessarily, refering to any specific way of dying, in the way it's used in the qur'an, just that people have died.

Cheers


Haha funny indeed that you hear such from someone who lack Arabic and does not believe in the Quran

cheers


The funny part is that you agreed with me; You know, you agreed with me who lack Arabic and does not believe in the Qur'an. You agreed with me that the "wafaa" refered to "our souls is taken", and that, mate, is not saying anything, at all, about how the specific person died. Just that the person has past away.

Peace
AhmedBahgat

Hello All

I will ignore TV typical rants, this is because he is a clear cut kafir who only talk kufr to suit his low desires,

Let me now add something very important

A_B stated that Allah can not be a killer, I say indeed Allah is a killer, for example if I'm fighting a kafir and killed him with a bullet, it was not me who shot really, it was Allah because He allowed me to do it, let's have a look at the following verse:

So you did not kill them, but it was Allah Who killed them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

[The Quran ; 8:17]

فَلَمْ تَقْتُلُوهُمْ وَلَكِنَّ اللّهَ قَتَلَهُمْ وَمَا رَمَيْتَ إِذْ رَمَيْتَ وَلَكِنَّ اللّهَ رَمَى وَلِيُبْلِيَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْهُ بَلاء حَسَناً إِنَّ اللّهَ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ (17)

-> See how clear it is: فَلَمْ تَقْتُلُوهُمْ وَلَكِنَّ اللّهَ قَتَلَهُمْ, Fa Lam Taqtiluhum Wa Lakin Allah Qatalahum, i.e. So you did not kill them, but it was Allah Who killed them, this is because: and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote

Therefore if Jesus was killed then he should have never said to Allah "Fa Lamma Tawafaitani, rather: Fa Lamma Qataltani

LOL, what a slam dunk that is boys and girls
All_Brains

Thanks Tvebak for the excellent Quranic references that prove that wafaa and mout cover all types of death.

Ahmed

I can believe that the only way you can get out of this is by referring that soul of the killed my hang around for a while!

Are you joking? Your statement of pure speculation would be viewed in the Muslim world as sorcery or preparing spirits.

Can you back up that view with a Quranic verse that shows some souls may not return to the creator immediately after death??

I am actually with you that the Quran may be suggesting that JC was not killed by Jews and may have been killed by someone else later on, or died of natural causes.

It's very simple, Islam denies Jesus to be God or his son and therefore he needs to be shown as a man who can only be rescued through God.

Christian on the other hand believe that Jesus is God, the son of God or the reincarnation of God, so ought to have extreme powers to reflect his God status.
Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look you wishful thinking kid, extreme penalty does not mean put to death

you are dismissed


Which part of "extreme penalty means death by crucifixion" did you not understand? Not only did I give you the evidence of Jesus being executed by Pontius Pilate from the works of one Roman historian "Tacitus," but I also gave you the definition of "extreme penalty" according to another ancient Roman historian who also lived at that time.

I have provided you with two ancient Roman sources completely un-related to Christianity.

And you have no argument whatsoever.
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:

Ahmed

I can believe that the only way you can get out of this is by referring that soul of the killed my hang around for a while!


Excuse me sir, the Quran clearly told us that sould hung some where and a brazakh is in between


All_Brains wrote:
Are you joking?


for a kfir who believe in no powerful God, i have to be of course (from the kafir perspective), from my perspective of course I'm not joking

All_Brains wrote:

Your statement of pure speculation would be viewed in the Muslim world as sorcery or preparing spirits.


well, I donlt care what the Muslim world claim, there is no such thing called Musim woorld anyay, you just invented sych crap

my analsis is based on the facts extracted from the Quran alone

All_Brains wrote:
Can you back up that view with a Quranic verse that shows some souls may not return to the creator immediately after death??


Why donlt you show me a verse that the soul returnn imediately to Allah after a person is killed or even die naturally?

All_Brains wrote:

I am actually with you that the Quran may be suggesting that JC was not killed by Jews and may have been killed by someone else later on, or died of natural causes.


no you are not, read some comments you said for fathom, you are slightly twisting it

can't you just be straightforward and tell fathon that you are 100% sure that the Quran denies that Jesus is killed by any other human?

All_Brains wrote:
It's very simple, Islam denies Jesus to be God or his son and therefore he needs to be shown as a man who can only be rescued through God.


simple to me, or to you or to those freaks who look into the Quran for any proofs of their delusional barbie world

All_Brains wrote:
Christian on the other hand believe that Jesus is God, the son of God or the reincarnation of God, so ought to have extreme powers to reflect his God status.


that is fine with me and if they even believe that a cow is their god, but to use the Quran to prove such non sense is where I will cross with such freaks

Salam
AhmedBahgat

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look you wishful thinking kid, extreme penalty does not mean put to death

you are dismissed


Which part of "extreme penalty means death by crucifixion" did you not understand? Not only did I give you the evidence of Jesus being executed by Pontius Pilate from the works of one Roman historian "Tacitus," but I also gave you the definition of "extreme penalty" according to another ancient Roman historian who also lived at that time.

I have provided you with two ancient Roman sources completely un-related to Christianity.

And you have no argument whatsoever.


you can shove the tom and jerry crap you brough in up your bumI only look at religious scriptures as you bloody doing by using the Quran to prove your crap and delusional non sense that it does not deny that jesus is killed by another human
AhmedBahgat

Hey A_B

do you have anything to refute my claim that Allah admitted that He is a killer?

or do you think what I claimed will cause sorcery in the so called Muslim world?

cheers

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