Archive for FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT BREAK THE CHAINS OF IGNORANCE AND FEAR
 

The free forums are now under new ownership, a full announcement will be made shortly

       FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT Forum Index -> Islam
David

Muhammad and the Angel Gabriel

When and where and in what words did the Angel Gabriel identify himself as the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad before the Quran was written?
Baal

The first time Muhammad saw him, he was in the middle of the street. Muhammad cowered in fear and ran home and Khadija covered him in a towel.

Later the verse that came in the koran was about Gibreel addressing the one covered in a towel. It is a stupid mistake since Muhammad was NOT in the towel when Gibreel appeared to him.
David

Baal wrote:
The first time Muhammad saw him, he was in the middle of the street. Muhammad cowered in fear and ran home and Khadija covered him in a towel.

Later the verse that came in the koran was about Gibreel addressing the one covered in a towel. It is a stupid mistake since Muhammad was NOT in the towel when Gibreel appeared to him.


Can you back up your comments with Hadeeth sayings?

This is the first encounter Muhammad had as far as I can determine:

Sahih Bukhari 1.3)

Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers)

The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family.

He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely.

Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen.

Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

I don't see where the Angel Gabriel identified himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel.
Baal

That is the hadith in question. Verse 96.1 is not the only verse that resulted from this incident:, there is another verse but i can not locate it without my mailbox in FFI. Looking it up.
Baal

Here, I looked on google and found this on prophetofdoom.

Quote:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Prop..._07_With_Whom_Am_I_Speaking.Islam

Muslim:C74B1N304/Bukhari:V4B54N461 "While talking about the period of pause in revelation, the Prophet said, 'While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice. I looked and saw the angel who had visited me at the cave sitting on a chair in the sky. I got scared of him and ran back home and said, "Wrap me in blankets, Khadija. And then Allah revealed the Verses of the Qur'an to me. 'O Muhammad, the shrouded one, wrapped up in garments, arise and warn the people against the Lord's Punishment, and abandon the idols.' [This candidate for revelation number two is a divergent recital of Qur'an 74:1.] After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently, and regularly."


We have Muhammad running away from an Angel.
THEN Muhammad is wrapped in a blanket by Khadija.

So, we have Muhammad encountering the Angel THEN later is Wrapped in Cloth.

THEN Muhammad recounts what happened to him earlier.
Muhammad claims Gabriel was talking to him while he was wrapped.

If you can not detect the problem with this, plz let me know.
Baal

The whole Surat is called the Cloaked One.

074.001
YUSUFALI: O thou wrapped up (in the mantle)!
PICKTHAL: O thou enveloped in thy cloak,
SHAKIR: O you who are clothed!

074.002
YUSUFALI: Arise and deliver thy warning!
PICKTHAL: Arise and warn!
SHAKIR: Arise and warn,

074.003
YUSUFALI: And thy Lord do thou magnify!
PICKTHAL: Thy Lord magnify,
SHAKIR: And your Lord do magnify,

074.004
YUSUFALI: And thy garments keep free from stain!
PICKTHAL: Thy raiment purify,
SHAKIR: And your garments do purify,
David

Baal wrote:
The whole Surat is called the Cloaked One.

074.001
YUSUFALI: O thou wrapped up (in the mantle)!
PICKTHAL: O thou enveloped in thy cloak,
SHAKIR: O you who are clothed!

074.002
YUSUFALI: Arise and deliver thy warning!
PICKTHAL: Arise and warn!
SHAKIR: Arise and warn,

074.003
YUSUFALI: And thy Lord do thou magnify!
PICKTHAL: Thy Lord magnify,
SHAKIR: And your Lord do magnify,

074.004
YUSUFALI: And thy garments keep free from stain!
PICKTHAL: Thy raiment purify,
SHAKIR: And your garments do purify,


The first visit is the one I cited, ending with "But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while."


The second visit is:

"Jabir sid, speaking of the temporary break in the revelation (see blue text above). (The Holy Prophet) said in his narrative: "Whilst I was walking along, I heard a voice from heaven and I raised up my eyes, and lo! the Angel that had appeared to me in Hira was sitting on a throne between heaven and earth and I was struck with awe on account of him and returned (home) and said, "Wrap me up, wrap me up. The Allah revealed: "O thou who are clothed! Arise and warn. And they Lord do magnify, And they garments do purify. And uncleaniness do shun."

Muhammad asked to be "wrapped up" after each visit.

You said:
Quote:

We have Muhammad running away from an Angel.
THEN Muhammad is wrapped in a blanket by Khadija.

So, we have Muhammad encountering the Angel THEN later is Wrapped in Cloth.

THEN Muhammad recounts what happened to him earlier.
Muhammad claims Gabriel was talking to him while he was wrapped.

If you can not detect the problem with this, plz let me know.


I don't see the problem considering he was wrapped after the first visit, so I guess you are going to have to spell it out for me more clearly.  Thanks.
Baal

He was wrapped after the first visit, then for a while there was not visit.
He was no longer wrapped.
Then he was visited again and was told something, let us call it X.
So he ran home and got wrapped again.

Then he is telling us that the revelation X is to someone who is wrapped.

The Koran states that the verse is to someone who is wrapped.
Yet Muhammad when he met the angel, he was in the middle of the road, He was NOT wrapped.

Men do not walk wrapped in the middle of the road.
David

Baal wrote:
He was wrapped after the first visit, then for a while there was not visit.
He was no longer wrapped.
Then he was visited again and was told something, let us call it X.
So he ran home and got wrapped again.

Then he is telling us that the revelation X is to someone who is wrapped.

The Koran states that the verse is to someone who is wrapped.
Yet Muhammad when he met the angel, he was in the middle of the road, He was NOT wrapped.

Men do not walk wrapped in the middle of the road.


Fascinating observation.

I'm a Christian and go over Bible verses and pick them apart and I do it constantly.  I can understand why the ignorant Muslims would not pick up what you did, but what about the more educated?

Which leads me to ask why a Muslim has not responded to my thread.
Baal

David wrote:
Baal wrote:
He was wrapped after the first visit, then for a while there was not visit.
He was no longer wrapped.
Then he was visited again and was told something, let us call it X.
So he ran home and got wrapped again.

Then he is telling us that the revelation X is to someone who is wrapped.

The Koran states that the verse is to someone who is wrapped.
Yet Muhammad when he met the angel, he was in the middle of the road, He was NOT wrapped.

Men do not walk wrapped in the middle of the road.


Fascinating observation.

I'm a Christian and go over Bible verses and pick them apart and I do it constantly.  I can understand why the ignorant Muslims would not pick up what you did, but what about the more educated?

Which leads me to ask why a Muslim has not responded to my thread.

Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.
David

Baal wrote:


Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.


I have a lot of "why's."

Why didn't this being identify himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel right from the start?

Why didn't "Gabriel" tell Muhammad not to be afraid or say "fear not" as he does when he encounters other humans?

Why did it take Waraqa to first suggest to Muhammad that it was Gabriel?

Why after believing that it was Gabriel was he so afraid after the second visit?

Why did this being ask Muhammad to read when he would have known that Muhammad could not read?

Why did "Gabriel" press Muhammad down 3 times until he could barely breathe in order to get him to read?  This is too aggressive under the circumstance.
Baal

David wrote:
Baal wrote:


Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.


I have a lot of "why's."

Why didn't this being identify himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel right from the start?

Why didn't "Gabriel" tell Muhammad not to be afraid or say "fear not" as he does when he encounters other humans?

Why did it take Waraqa to first suggest to Muhammad that it was Gabriel?

Why after believing that it was Gabriel was he so afraid after the second visit?

Unanswerable.

Quote:

Why did this being ask Muhammad to read when he would have known that Muhammad could not read?

Why did "Gabriel" press Muhammad down 3 times until he could barely breathe in order to get him to read?  This is too aggressive under the circumstance.

This is how the miracle works. You do not have to like it. Muhammad does not have to like it. But this is how it works.

Of course, this behavior never happened with any other previous messenger or prophet. That spirit that appeared to Muhammad is acting more like the spirit of a human goon. then of an angel or an enlightened being.

Either the spirit is a dead human goon, which is possible if you believe in an afterlife, or this spirit & the miracle are the invention of a human goon. Specially when that human fails to place the events in the proper context. It is like a criminal getting caught in the cross-examining.
David

Baal wrote:
David wrote:
Baal wrote:


Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.


I have a lot of "why's."

Why didn't this being identify himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel right from the start?

Why didn't "Gabriel" tell Muhammad not to be afraid or say "fear not" as he does when he encounters other humans?

Why did it take Waraqa to first suggest to Muhammad that it was Gabriel?

Why after believing that it was Gabriel was he so afraid after the second visit?

Unanswerable.

Quote:

Why did this being ask Muhammad to read when he would have known that Muhammad could not read?

Why did "Gabriel" press Muhammad down 3 times until he could barely breathe in order to get him to read?  This is too aggressive under the circumstance.

This is how the miracle works. You do not have to like it. Muhammad does not have to like it. But this is how it works.

Of course, this behavior never happened with any other previous messenger or prophet. That spirit that appeared to Muhammad is acting more like the spirit of a human goon. then of an angel or an enlightened being.

Either the spirit is a dead human goon, which is possible if you believe in an afterlife, or this spirit & the miracle are the invention of a human goon. Specially when that human fails to place the events in the proper context. It is like a criminal getting caught in the cross-examining.


Have you ever heard that Waraqa did not support Muhammad contrary to what a Muslim will tell you?  I have a report to that effect if you want to read it.

Have you ever heard that Muhammad suffered from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?  People who have this disorder see people who are not there and carry on conversations with people who are not there.

I think there is cause to believe that Muhammad had Temporal Lobe Epilepsy.
MrInquisitive



Humm...

This is very reminiscent of the "man born from a "divinely" impregnated "virgin".

I never could buy into that idea, you know?

I mean, for a woman to become impregnated, sperm must penetrate the egg inside her F tubes that extend from inside to the outside of her uterus. No other way to go with that!!! Either by petri dish fertilization followed by implantation, penile ejaculation or turkey baster delivery...

Of course, "faith" can turn nightmares into realities. Once you get there, you have "facts". Those "facts" become truth...

Right?...Rrriiigghhttt!!!

Aesopus' was a far better and based on reality concept...animals analogous to humans...Brilliant!!!
Baal

David wrote:
Baal wrote:
David wrote:
Baal wrote:


Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.


I have a lot of "why's."

Why didn't this being identify himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel right from the start?

Why didn't "Gabriel" tell Muhammad not to be afraid or say "fear not" as he does when he encounters other humans?

Why did it take Waraqa to first suggest to Muhammad that it was Gabriel?

Why after believing that it was Gabriel was he so afraid after the second visit?

Unanswerable.

Quote:

Why did this being ask Muhammad to read when he would have known that Muhammad could not read?

Why did "Gabriel" press Muhammad down 3 times until he could barely breathe in order to get him to read?  This is too aggressive under the circumstance.

This is how the miracle works. You do not have to like it. Muhammad does not have to like it. But this is how it works.

Of course, this behavior never happened with any other previous messenger or prophet. That spirit that appeared to Muhammad is acting more like the spirit of a human goon. then of an angel or an enlightened being.

Either the spirit is a dead human goon, which is possible if you believe in an afterlife, or this spirit & the miracle are the invention of a human goon. Specially when that human fails to place the events in the proper context. It is like a criminal getting caught in the cross-examining.


Have you ever heard that Waraqa did not support Muhammad contrary to what a Muslim will tell you?  I have a report to that effect if you want to read it.

Have you ever heard that Muhammad suffered from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?  People who have this disorder see people who are not there and carry on conversations with people who are not there.

I think there is cause to believe that Muhammad had Temporal Lobe Epilepsy.

I know that Waraqa died very soon after Khadija declared her husband a prophet. It is a simple matter to claim a dead person said things he did not.

I would be interested in reading material about the priest Waraqa bin Nawfal if you can provide the material.

I read Ali Sina's book and some dutch editorial that both support this theory. It is very possible if not probable. Muhammad had few seizure visions and then built his glory upon them.
Baal

MrInquisitive wrote:


Humm...

This is very reminiscent of the "man born from a "divinely" impregnated "virgin".

I never could buy into that idea, you know?

I mean, for a woman to become impregnated, sperm must penetrate the egg inside her F tubes that extend from inside to the outside of her uterus. No other way to go with that!!! Either by petri dish fertilization followed by implantation, penile ejaculation or turkey baster delivery...

Of course, "faith" can turn nightmares into realities. Once you get there, you have "facts". Those "facts" become truth...

Right?...Rrriiigghhttt!!!

Aesopus' was a far better and based on reality concept...animals analogous to humans...Brilliant!!!

What difference does it make if someone is born from a virgin or someone turned water to wine. Nothing. The only thing that matters is the message.

Hello MrInquisitive. The lack of self-criticism is generally endemic to religions which are based on some fundamental beliefs.


A Christian has to fundamentally believe that god exists with no proof. Which is a big deal.
That Christ is his son with no proof. Which is not a big deal.
That Christ did some miracles. Which is not a big deal.

Ultimately, they have to believe in his message and apply it. Which is the biggest deal.

Now I do not care if god exists or not. I do not care if they believe Jesus was his son or he was the Lord of the Rings.

I do not care if people believe in miracles. One miracle or Ten, all the same.

The only thing that concerns me is the message. And when you study the message of jesus, you can start applying criticism, you can start weighting it and ultimately, if you do not like something, you can always claim human interference. Believing the message does not have to be as fundamental as say, believing god exists and is raising people from the dead.


In Islam, the message is protected by the miracle. Worse, The message is protected by the message itself. This is the preserved word of Allah and You will be killed if you apostate or criticize.

What concerns me is the absolute and utter lack of self-criticism in ALL aspects of present days islam. Worst of all, it concerns me that they are affraid of criticizing the message.
David

MrInquisitive wrote:


Humm...

This is very reminiscent of the "man born from a "divinely" impregnated "virgin".

I never could buy into that idea, you know?

I mean, for a woman to become impregnated, sperm must penetrate the egg inside her F tubes that extend from inside to the outside of her uterus. No other way to go with that!!! Either by petri dish fertilization followed by implantation, penile ejaculation or turkey baster delivery...

Of course, "faith" can turn nightmares into realities. Once you get there, you have "facts". Those "facts" become truth...

Right?...Rrriiigghhttt!!!

Aesopus' was a far better and based on reality concept...animals analogous to humans...Brilliant!!!


It's just incredible that God would find a way for a conception to happen without the need of a man, isn't it?  I mean, who does God think he is to leave man out of what is man's "work."  It kind of puts man in his place.
David

Baal wrote:


I would be interested in reading material about the priest Waraqa bin Nawfal if you can provide the material.

I read Ali Sina's book and some dutch editorial that both support this theory. It is very possible if not probable. Muhammad had few seizure visions and then built his glory upon them.


I don't have a direct link.  I found it on Answering-islam.

Start with their index to the Quran:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/index.html

Click on the "W" at the top of the screen.

Click on WARAQA B. NAUFAL to the left of the screen.

Scroll down to:

"Waraqa ibn Nawfal Was No Supporter of Muhammad's Prophethood"

Click on it and up will come the report.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Interesting link there. It contains this about him:

“Ibn Ishaq relates (as it appears in ibn Hisham's recension):

Waraqa attached himself to Christianity and studied its scriptures until he had thoroughly mastered them."
(Ibn Ishaq, Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, 1967, p. 99)”

Why would someone thoroughly versed in Christianity (which posits that the son of god came as a saviour to all mankind, thereby negating forever the need for any further revelations) believe that god had sent a new prophet?
Baal

I read the explanations why he thinks Waraqa was opposed to muhammad. Reading it in Arabic makes more sense if we were to consider that Waraqa was opposed to Muhammad not with him.

Islamically this is big. Waraqa's brothers were muhammad's uncles.

One was Abu Lahab. One of only Two names mentioned in the koran. He was thrown in hell and he was drinking bitter 'zakkum' and his wife was carrying palm leaves to burn him with.

Another Two were the heads of the Ammawid dynasty which started 50yrs after Muhammad died, and the head of the Abbasid.

And now Waraqa, the First male witness to Muhammad. The one who confirmed the 'sign of prophethood'.
Baal

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Interesting link there. It contains this about him:

“Ibn Ishaq relates (as it appears in ibn Hisham's recension):

Waraqa attached himself to Christianity and studied its scriptures until he had thoroughly mastered them."
(Ibn Ishaq, Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, 1967, p. 99)”

Why would someone thoroughly versed in Christianity (which posits that the son of god came as a saviour to all mankind, thereby negating forever the need for any further revelations) believe that god had sent a new prophet?

At the time, the Arabs needed their own religion. The jews had theirs and seemed prospering from it. In the East Kusrau had his, in the West Ceasar had his, even the yemenite seemed stronger and united to the South under Maslamah the Hanafi prophet. They all seemed united and educated and the Arabs seemed divided each following his own deity.

Many Arab intellectuals saw a need to a common deity. It is possible, in my mind at least that Waraqa was either a renegade Christian priest or an Arab nationalist, who was supporting the idea for an Arab religion.

I realized now after reading what was written about him, that he wanted nothing to do with islam.
MrInquisitive

"miracles and the message"

My point, Dear Baal,

when comparing that: ..."The only thing that concerns me is the message. And when you study the message of jesus, you can start applying criticism, you can start weighting it and ultimately, if you do not like something, you can always claim human interference. Believing the message does not have to be as fundamental as say, believing god exists and is raising people from the dead."...

Is that the message has no "leg to stand on" in the first place by the very fact that the entire "message" is based on an already ilogical and impossible set of circumstances...
Baal

Re: "miracles and the message"

MrInquisitive wrote:
My point, Dear Baal,

when comparing that: ..."The only thing that concerns me is the message. And when you study the message of jesus, you can start applying criticism, you can start weighting it and ultimately, if you do not like something, you can always claim human interference. Believing the message does not have to be as fundamental as say, believing god exists and is raising people from the dead."...

Is that the message has no "leg to stand on" in the first place by the very fact that the entire "message" is based on an already ilogical and impossible set of circumstances...

If the message is to teach the golden rule. Then I can objectively measure that message.

If the message is to give the other cheek then I can measure that.

The stories and fables, I can measure them. I can critique them.

I do not care that Jesus cured a blind man as a proof that not throwing the first stone at the adulteress is good.

There was a message that we are not to consider ourselves better then others. I can measure and critique that.

The fact of the matter is, once I remove the hocus pocus from Christianity, which is what you just did in One Swooping argument, I am faced with a message that, once put under a critiquing light, the message can stand on its own.

I can live with people following that message. I can hire them. I can marry into them. Some might not even think I will be saved. Who cares.

With islam, First, I am not even allowed to critique the message. A muslim can not critique the message and does not have the option to pick and choose from the message. It is ALL the unchanged word of Allah. Every last letter.

Second, what message? The whole book is about Kuffars and Unification and the rights of men over women and the rights of muslims over non-muslims.

Third, once islam is implemented, my rights and sensibilities will be trampled and ignored. Because the message of islam, unification, is just about that, submission. The Submission of the believers and then the Submission of the non-believers.

So we can sit and argue about hocus pocus all we want. Ultimately it is the message and the actions of the believers that I care about. And believe me I will go just as nuts on Christians if they dare to, for example, re-implement the OT covenant. Or claim creationism like some sects are trying.

But I am not interested in hocus pocus Mr.I.

       FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT Forum Index -> Islam
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum
Home|Home|Home|Home|HomeHome|Home|Home|Home|Home