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ibnishaq

noah enter ark twice or what?

genesis 7 go there

then go to verse 7 that says that noah and his sons, his wives and his sons wives entered the ark.
then in verse 11 the flood happened "all the fountains of the great abyss burst forth and the floodgates of the sky were opened."

however then go to verse 13 and it says that noah and his sons, his wife, and his sons wives enetered the ark! then it says that the flood happened in verse 17.

so why repeat itself right after? why do verse 7 say he goes into ark and verse 11 say flood happened, but then verse 13 they go into the ark and 17 flood happens?

docuemntary hypothesis P and J were involved.

how you can trust such a book?
brainout

Re: noah enter ark twice or what?

ibnishaq wrote:
genesis 7 go there

then go to verse 7 that says that noah and his sons, his wives and his sons wives entered the ark.
then in verse 11 the flood happened "all the fountains of the great abyss burst forth and the floodgates of the sky were opened."

however then go to verse 13 and it says that noah and his sons, his wife, and his sons wives enetered the ark! then it says that the flood happened in verse 17.

so why repeat itself right after? why do verse 7 say he goes into ark and verse 11 say flood happened, but then verse 13 they go into the ark and 17 flood happens?

docuemntary hypothesis P and J were involved.

how you can trust such a book?


No, they don't know how to read Hebrew prose. Style of Hebrew prose in Bible is always 1) summary first, 2) followed by detail. So it forms a circle, ending where it began. So Genesis 7:7 summarizes the theme, acts as a title, Entrance into the Ark. (Same style as in Genesis 1:1).

Then from Gen7:8ff, you get the details of how that happened. That's why it ends with their entrance into the Ark. 7:7 told you what story was coming, and verse 17 finished that part of the story. Makes reading Bible a lot easier, as you can skim it faster. Remember, in the old days people had to memorize the Bible, so it helped them to have all these bookmarks (7:7 acts like a bookmark, too). Or, like bookends, 7:7 being one 'end', and 7:17 being the other 'end'. That mattered a bunch when passing on the story, so you could audit your memory (or the writing) to see if you missed something. People were real careful to properly remember and record the Word of God.

Therefore, you'll see that style a lot in Bible narratives, especially Kings and Chronicles (which put everyone to sleep), and often even in Isaiah. You have to see the Hebrew to know if it's a summary or a separate event.

For example, in Genesis 1:1 you have a function of both a Title and a separate event from Genesis 1:2, because the tense in Genesis 1:2 changes, and you have an adversative waw. In the Greek LXX this is stressed by the transitional particle de and the imperfect of eimi. Oh, I'm getting too technical, so I'll stop here. Point is, it's not a contradiction, but a style of writing often used throughout the Bible to make it easier to read and remember. So if you know the style, you'll find it easy. If you are ignorant of the style, you'll think it's a contradiction. Ok: but you're not ignorant, anymore!
ibnishaq

so why have i never even once heard a rabbi mention this? they know a lot more about hebrew then you xians!

question
how much knowledge on biblical hebrew and greek do you have?
brainout

ibnishaq wrote:
so why have i never even once heard a rabbi mention this? they know a lot more about hebrew then you xians!

question
how much knowledge on biblical hebrew and greek do you have?


The people you've heard don't teach the Bible in the original languages. I've been under a pastor who only teaches the Bible in the original languages for over 34 years. Daily. There are over 15,000 hours of exegesis on everything from Genesis to Revelation. So that's how one person can know something which many others don't know.

Ibnishaq, you're just playing games, pretending to be interested. What you want to do instead, is insinuate accusations, but you better improve your skills and knowledge, before you try this approach with anyone who's actually been schooled in thinking. You want to praise the Koran and debunk Bible which the Koran calls valid in over 20 ayahs? Fine. But do it better than you have, thus far. We're not children, here.
ibnishaq

i know 2 ex christians who both knew hebrew and greek i can give you e-mails to both.

one was from egypt. he had the entire bible memorized in hebrew and greek. he converted to islam. another is from florida. he did not have the bible memorized but he knows where everything is. he converted to islam in 96. he too knows hebrew and greek.

now i am not playing games here no no i am just telling you that from my conversations with these ex christian hebrew speakers, they never mention anything that you mention.
brainout

ibnishaq wrote:
i know 2 ex christians who both knew hebrew and greek i can give you e-mails to both.

one was from egypt. he had the entire bible memorized in hebrew and greek. he converted to islam. another is from florida. he did not have the bible memorized but he knows where everything is. he converted to islam in 96. he too knows hebrew and greek.

now i am not playing games here no no i am just telling you that from my conversations with these ex christian hebrew speakers, they never mention anything that you mention.
Fine, you know two ex-christians. You yourself cannot read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. I can. Linguistics and literary style in a language is a structured thing, and one should professionally learn it before ASSuming an error which doesn't exist. In order to read Bible, therefore, men go to seminary and college, during which they are trained in "textual criticism", "hermeneutics", and the linguistics of the languages in Bible. I've had the benefit of learning those things. Perhaps your two friends, have not.

More importantly, you yourself by hearsay from them think you can just accuse, and instead all you do is expose your ignorance of basic linguistic technique -- and, the fact that you are playing games. It's very obvious, and the dishonesty is not appreciated.

Criticize the Bible all you like. Praise the Koran all you like. But do it HONESTLY and SMARTLY. Or you will end up making the Koran look bad and the Bible look good, as indeed you have done thus far. Ahmed Bahgat in FFI is honest. You, my friend, are not.

Worse, you show disrespect to your own Koran, as well as to the Bible. You pretend interest in the Bible, and you hallow the Koran based on how many times a word shows up in it. That mocks God. Be interested in either Koran or Bible because of its CONTENT. Debunk Bible due to CONTENT you UNDERSTAND, not based on hearsay. Be honest, in other words. Dishonest faith is no faith at all.

Are you angry yet? Fine! I hope so! Then invite your two friends to come to this forum, let the debate begin! I'm sure All-Brains would appreciate their input. Memorizing a book does not mean you understand what it says. Knowing where things are in a book doesn't mean you understand what those things mean. So of course if they in fact do understand something, wouldn't their input here be appreciated?
ibnishaq

hey dude i love the bible! i read it every day with great joy and i cry when i read the gospels because they are beautiful.

but i do not think it is from god and so i just treat is as a book.

now please tell me all your credentials in the bible? i am just wondering because you seem like you have a lot of knowledge!
brainout

Please read my last post. Your flattery now seems insincere when you ask again a question you asked before and I answered you before. Your claim to love the Bible's words also seems insincere when you're so quick to accuse it absent knowledge. You don't just ask questions, you accuse. That's fine, accuse: but don't pretend. Dishonesty will not get a good response from me.
ibnishaq

you said you know greek and hebrew but that is all. you never said how long you studied it and all.

we can not discuss things unless we first know one's credentials. by credentials i do not mean the name of the seminary and all that. just how long and such.
brainout

This is the post I was talking about. I have now bolded the text in blue, which previously answered your question about my knowledge of Bible.

Again, feel free to argue whatever you like, but please do not be dishonest. I stop replying to people who play games. I hope you understand that you appear to be playing games. When a person answers you (whether All Brains or myself) you don't seem to hear the answer, and keep 'asking' the same 'questions'. That behavior is not appreciated. If you keep it up, do not expect me to reply. Sorry.

brainout wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
so why have i never even once heard a rabbi mention this? they know a lot more about hebrew then you xians!

question
how much knowledge on biblical hebrew and greek do you have?


The people you've heard don't teach the Bible in the original languages. I've been under a pastor who only teaches the Bible in the original languages for over 34 years. Daily. There are over 15,000 hours of exegesis on everything from Genesis to Revelation. So that's how one person can know something which many others don't know.

Ibnishaq, you're just playing games, pretending to be interested. What you want to do instead, is insinuate accusations, but you better improve your skills and knowledge, before you try this approach with anyone who's actually been schooled in thinking. You want to praise the Koran and debunk Bible which the Koran calls valid in over 20 ayahs? Fine. But do it better than you have, thus far. We're not children, here.
All_Brains

Hello Shaq

Brainout has a point. I know deep in your heart you would like to prove Islam to be the right religion and God's true words, brainout feels the same way about Christianity and I am probably sympathetic toward Atheism and Agnosticism.

I know, as once upon a time I wanted to prove Islam right until I realised that I was lying to myself....I wanted to believe....I hated that fact that I could be wrong! I know better now.

I am free and way better person than I used to be.....

As I said before, take all the time in the world, but try to be as honest and as open-minded as you can.

I am sure you're honest with us...I want you though to be honest with yourself.
ibnishaq

ok brainout i am not sure how i was being dishonest. i said that i never heard of a hebrew scholar who has told me that it was common to repeat things. and i have not.

and i was not lying about my 2 ex really devout christian friends either. i have e-mails to both of them if you wish to speak with them and will be more then happy to get you in contact with them.

so where am i being dishonest?

perhaps i am repeating things over and over and i am sorry for that. i guess i just want more responses.

i really DO want to leave islam no lie at all. my brother is an ex muslim and i just could never see him in eternal hell it would hurt for me to see such.

it is like when someone looses their family many times they lose faith in god. i know a ex christian who lost her son when he was 16 and shortly after her husband. she lost her faith in god because she asked "why did this happen to me."

well, my question is "why would god send my brother to eternal hell. what did he do to hurt anyone?" and it makes me want to leave islam so bad because i dont want my brother going to hell for just leaving islam!

but there are things that keep me in islam and are as follows

1 many people converting to islam - dont know why but this makes me stay. i know 2 ex devout christians who are now muslim and i have heard of many people who take islamic studies or arabic at university and become muslim. it makes me wonder why.

2 numerical - the fact that days is repeated 30 times and month 12 just astonishes me. i have gotten some GOOD responses but when it comes down to it days is still repeated 30 times and month 12. yes yes it does sound silly and it probably is but i just find it amazing. i mean i just do not see how one could have inveneted such. it makes no sense how one could.

3 pharoahs body - when quran says that we will find pharoahs body as a reminder and we did find his body

4romans beat persians - just amazing how they really did


i guess that is really all i mean it IS really bad that islam denies evolution i for one am a strong evolution believer but then again creationism in quran could be metephorical as quran says that some things are allegrical.

so i just do not kno!
brainout

Ok, let's try again. I'll leave the question of your brother and hell to the end, because the first four are easy to handle.

1. Many people converting to islam -- so what? Most people follow the devil, too. Does God mean so little to you, that what people do carries more weight? Seriously, you base your faith on how popular it is? What does the Koran warn you about that? Aren't you guilty as it says in the Cow Sura, of being among those who profess belief but have some other agenda? Be honest with yourself, as All Brains counseled. At the end of this reply, you'll see you have no reason to fear.

2. Again, you base your faith on a trinket, rather than on wanting to know God. If you looked at that worksheet link I gave you, you'll see how God orchestrates TIME ITSELF around the Jews. And if you go to any of the Bible Codes' websites, you'll see many more times the number of number miracles than the paltry repetition of month and days. Not amazing, what you call miracle, and certainly nothing compared to the miracle of constructing time so that every 490 years God does something for the Jews, JUST AS PROMISED in the Bible. Which is the bigger miracle, to make the same 490 years do what was promised, or to manipulate text so it shows month and day a certain number of times. I could do that easily. It's called "creative writing", and every poet can do it. Psalm 119 is an acrostic of every letter in the Hebrew alphabet, constructed that way on purpose.

3. Of course Pharaoh's body drowned in the Reed (later Red) Sea. Bible said that in Exodus when it happened.

4. Romans beat the persians, yeah. That's not Islam. That's Julian versus Chosroes (if memory serves, I'd have to look it up), 614-630 AD. Everyone and his brother knew Rome would win. But look at the TIMING: 490 years after the PIG TEMPLE atop the place where JEWISH 2nd Temple was, which pig temple was put 70 years after the 2nd temple was destroyed, which was 586 years after it was built, which 1st temple was destroyed in 586BC. Notice that? All that's keyed to the JEWS of the Bible, not to the Koran.

You want numbers miracle with REAL HISTORICAL TIME? 630-490=140AD, the year the pig temple was completed. 140-70=70AD, the year the 2nd Temple was destroyed (on 9th Ab, SAME DAY as the 1st Temple was destroyed 586 years prior).

Now, 70AD-586=516BC, when the 2nd Temple was completed, which was 70 years after having been destroyed in 586BC. Notice that recurrence of the same numbers? FAR BETTER than merely listing month 12 times in a book, wouldn't you say? You can check these dates in history. All of them, predicted by Bible or recorded in it.

Satan plays Temple games using the 490's also, and he uses Islam -- it's all in that spreadsheet link previously posted. Of course, the Hegira is 490 years after the Bar Kochba revolution began, how clever of Satan to time it that way. Not to mention, the Dome of the Rock commences its building in 685 AD, which is the REVERSE of 586BC -- or, 99+586, using the 99 as the age of Abraham when he was circumcised -- for ISAAC, not Ishmael. Done to MOCK Muslims, as are all Satan's uses of the 490s. God doesn't mock. Satan mocks.

These are rather more impressive, real historical events repeating based on 490 years as the Bible explains, than mere month occurring 12 times, eh what? Mind you, even this impressive proof SINCE ADAM of the God of the Bible orchestrating time, shouldn't be the reason why you believe in Him. Believe in Him because you want to know Him, live with Him. Not, because He knows how to add and subtract.

For look: when Rome finally beat Persia and lay exhausted, well now what can Satan do? He needs to make a Muhammed so he can keep attention on that Temple every 490 years. Because if he can't foment war between Jews and Arabs, then he can't kill all the sons of Abraham. Bringing us Christians in to kill also, as in the Crusades (which are also timed based on the 490s). Even Glubb Pasha, in his "Short History of the Arab Peoples" (a classic they give you to read if you're studying Arab/Islam history) noticed the odd timing of the rise of Muhammed, not knowing about the 490 because he didn't read Bible.

Are you impressed yet? A DEMON could easily time this by giving 'revelation' to Muhammed, and in fact at first Muhammed thought it was a demon. Yeah, it was. Demons know what's going on in Jerusalem, in fact they are in a hurry to get someone to take over, timing it to the 490, but it didn't work between Rome and Persia, both sides killed each other, basically. They ran out of the will to fight.

As for your brother: Allah does not get paid for sin in the Koran. That's unfair to Allah. The ONLY reason I don't believe in the Koran is that it treats God like a piece of dirt. Doesn't matter that God doesn't NEED to be paid, it's justice that HE be paid for sin. Doesn't matter if we get punished or rewarded, we are puny humans. But God gets left UNPAID for all his trouble? And He's alone, the only Infinite One? How fair is that? It's not a need question: it's a LOVE and JUSTICE Question.

Only Bible shows how God gets paid for sin. So God is not cheated. So hell is avoidable. And this God of the Bible is the same God who orchestrates time in 490 year increments, and Satan uses Islam against God trying to mimic the 490 years, so which God do you think is the real one?

You wanted a numbers miracle, now you have it. Read and proof the spreadsheet in my prior post to see all the timeline from Adam forward, how the 490 years started then and kept on playing. Then ask yourself if your brother wasn't the lucky one, to leave Islam. Ask yourself real carefully if "allah" isn't Satan, and in fact you and your brother and everyone you know, should believe once in Christ and thereby forever AVOID hell, John 3:16. For the One who spoke that verse is the same one who is the King of the Jews, and history itself shows you Time Itself is orchestrated in 490 year increments BASED ON the Jews. Not, on Islam (well, Satan tags time to Islam).

Enjoy mulling all that over! Proof the math and the Bible verses. http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/Mirroring.htm is an overview of the entire accounting of how God orchestrates time. You don't have to know Hebrew or Greek to proof it. The worksheet plots all the numbers for you. Have fun!
ibnishaq

hey i tried to look at the 490 numerical thing and it says broken link. i would really like to see it though!
brainout

This is what Islam does to people: http://www.peacefaq.com/apostacy.html
Does that sound like "God" to you?

Try again: http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/Mirroring.htm for the explanation. It will have links to the worksheet and the Word doc and the Default calendar God set up at Adam's fall in the first (white) section. I just now noticed that I typed it wrong in the last post. My bad, I apologize profusely! (I hate broken links, lol.)

Shaq, I've been very aggressive with you. That's not my style. So I can't go on being aggressive. Believe or don't, but I don't like talking as if I were trying to convert you. I'm more angry at how Islam dupes people than I am interested in making you convert. I don't want you to go to hell, but I'm afraid my 'commercial message' ends now. A salesman, I'm not. Enjoy!
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
ok brainout i am not sure how i was being dishonest. i said that i never heard of a hebrew scholar who has told me that it was common to repeat things. and i have not.

and i was not lying about my 2 ex really devout christian friends either. i have e-mails to both of them if you wish to speak with them and will be more then happy to get you in contact with them.

so where am i being dishonest?

perhaps i am repeating things over and over and i am sorry for that. i guess i just want more responses.

i really DO want to leave islam no lie at all. my brother is an ex muslim and i just could never see him in eternal hell it would hurt for me to see such.

it is like when someone looses their family many times they lose faith in god. i know a ex christian who lost her son when he was 16 and shortly after her husband. she lost her faith in god because she asked "why did this happen to me."

well, my question is "why would god send my brother to eternal hell. what did he do to hurt anyone?" and it makes me want to leave islam so bad because i dont want my brother going to hell for just leaving islam!

but there are things that keep me in islam and are as follows

1 many people converting to islam - dont know why but this makes me stay. i know 2 ex devout christians who are now muslim and i have heard of many people who take islamic studies or arabic at university and become muslim. it makes me wonder why.

2 numerical - the fact that days is repeated 30 times and month 12 just astonishes me. i have gotten some GOOD responses but when it comes down to it days is still repeated 30 times and month 12. yes yes it does sound silly and it probably is but i just find it amazing. i mean i just do not see how one could have inveneted such. it makes no sense how one could.

3 pharoahs body - when quran says that we will find pharoahs body as a reminder and we did find his body

4romans beat persians - just amazing how they really did


i guess that is really all i mean it IS really bad that islam denies evolution i for one am a strong evolution believer but then again creationism in quran could be metephorical as quran says that some things are allegrical.

so i just do not kno!


Hello Shaq

I am actually very confident that your very honest with us!

Your story made me think. I have a lecture in 30 minutes and will be back to chat to you later about you and your brother.

Take care!
brainout

I hope All Brains is right. I love being wrong, here. Restores my faith in people Smile
Been burned by Muslims pretending interest only to argue, too many years, sorry.
ibnishaq

lol

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