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Ameen

Some comments from your blog

Dear All_Brains.,

Hi,

Quick comment please, forgive the formatting. I saw your blog, I thought it was pretentious to be honest with you, you ask many valid questions, but many false ones, tainted with a sarcasm that Im not sure is healthy.

Furthermore, I have been happy to see this style forum, blog as this can easily be answerable by layman Muslims, unlike orientalists, who do pose a threat ( though refutable) to Islaam.

I think these forums really make Islaam stronger. FFI did an excellent job on that.

Some comments if you don’t mind from your blog. Please forgive me if I don’t correspond on a regular basis.

I often find such things a bit tiresome, bearing in mind the quality of the opponents, the sheer lack of research in their points, and the constant name calling and immaturity. As I came across on one forum, which quite frankly, was a joke. Though I felt sorry for some of them, I still couldn’t see how their problems were related to Islaam, seems every wrong doing that happened to them, they couldn’t find reasoble explanations, and hence Islaam was the blame factor.

Anwyays, to your post.


Quote:
‘A lonely God roaming the universe with extreme powers and abilities and no one around to appreciate the might of this lonely force! This must have been tough!’


I think you misunderstand the Islamic belief. For the Muslims always said that God was creating from eternity, as you know, the Muslims, the head pioneer of them being the hanabilah, that before he created the universe he was creating other things to.

So Allah didn’t obtain the title creator only when he created, but rather, he has always been the creator. Who knows what he has created in the past. Maybe other life forms, but to say that he was ‘lonely’ is as much as a human conception as reproduction and just as irrelevant to God or his existence.

Quote:
'This notion creates a predicament that God is just as needy as us, therefore his divinity is nothing but a fairy tale. He is just one of us!’


No, that is a Mistake. Not every action that emanates from this being can be reasoned or fathomed, after all, look at the realm of quantum physics, who can fathom that?!

Creating is not a sign of ‘neediness’ anymore then a king having a slave is a sign of an inability on his behalf.

Quote:
‘God creates us out of nothingness to experience life and be put to the test. The vast majority according to the Abrahamic faiths will end up in a eternal torture of hellfire!!’


These questions amongst others don’t put a spanner in the works for those who believe in a God. Because unlike you, emotion is not a condition for his acceptance to be existed, they deem a God because of the Design Inference that can be made.

Also, we have to understand wht you mean by nothingness. Because I’m not sure you understand what this term means, maybe you are thinking in terms of what some say ‘something from nothing’ as some say with regards to how this universe came into being. We are rather talking about God who can create without the need of ‘anything’. There is a subtle difference here that I think you should focus upon .

Furthermore, lets say that God is evil, for the sake of argument. ( even though he isn’t). What will you do against him? What would you be able to do to fight or resist him?………..let me categorically say: NOTHING ( no Alll_Brains, not even a blog!)

The question is, if we accept the existence of a God, can he communicate? Bearing in mind he created the universe from the 1st place. I think that’s the question.


Quote:
‘The miracle of Quran has dissolved’


Hmmm…….but this is something that was a pre condition for you to accept something to be divine to be miarclous to begin with, when Abu Bakr RA, came to Islaam, one may question what miracle he needed??

Miracles, are not a pre requisite of accepting Islam, sometimes-just logic alone is enough. I.e. the fact that an infinite solution is required to explain the universe, this infinite solution is a simple explanation, ( as concurred by occams razor) , and this infinite explanation is characterised with consciousness/life and intelligence( and here we differ with atheists as to what this infinite ‘thing’ is), then the infinite designer/consciousness should communicate with the creation, lay down rules, if he wants he can punish, if he wants he can reward. But that message must agree with what humans beings by nature regard to be God. So this infinite entity can have defects, etc and this is why we reject the Godhood of Jesus AS or idols.

Can I take this opportunity to ask you please,

Do you believe in God? I wasn’t too sure from reading your blog. Remember, to answer my points please. The crux of your discussion, I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that a God cannot communicate or produce a heaven and a hell.
All_Brains

Re: Some comments from your blog

Ameen wrote:
Dear All_Brains.,

Hi,


Hi Ameen and welcome to the forum.

Quote:

Quick comment please, forgive the formatting. I saw your blog, I thought it was pretentious to be honest with you, you ask many valid questions, but many false ones, tainted with a sarcasm that Im not sure is healthy.


You accused the blog of being pretentious and some of the questions being false without giving examples! This is a logical fallacy.

Quote:
Furthermore, I have been happy to see this style forum, blog as this can easily be answerable by layman Muslims, unlike orientalists, who do pose a threat ( though refutable) to Islaam.


I am glad you're happy, although such forums are giving Islam real hard time and not easily refutable.

Quote:

I think these forums really make Islaam stronger. FFI did an excellent job on that.


I disagree. I alone have helped 23 people in the past 3 years to step out of the dark.
Quote:

Some comments if you don’t mind from your blog. Please forgive me if I don’t correspond on a regular basis.


You're forgiven.

Quote:
I often find such things a bit tiresome, bearing in mind the quality of the opponents, the sheer lack of research in their points, and the constant name calling and immaturity. As I came across on one forum, which quite frankly, was a joke. Though I felt sorry for some of them, I still couldn’t see how their problems were related to Islaam, seems every wrong doing that happened to them, they couldn’t find reasoble explanations, and hence Islaam was the blame factor.


I know for a fact that my blog and forum don't subscribe to such notion.

Quote:
Quote:
‘A lonely God roaming the universe with extreme powers and abilities and no one around to appreciate the might of this lonely force! This must have been tough!’


I think you misunderstand the Islamic belief. For the Muslims always said that God was creating from eternity, as you know, the Muslims, the head pioneer of them being the hanabilah, that before he created the universe he was creating other things to.


Now, if you're going to go into a debate with me, then you better research and come up with references.

Can you please provide the Quranic verses or hadiths that show that God was creating from eternity?

Quote:
So Allah didn’t obtain the title creator only when he created, but rather, he has always been the creator. Who knows what he has created in the past. Maybe other life forms, but to say that he was ‘lonely’ is as much as a human conception as reproduction and just as irrelevant to God or his existence.


Muslim's best mate "Allah knows best" will not be accepted in a debate with me, please refrain from committing logical fallacies when conversing with me.

And even if Allah has had many creations before man, according to his messages and books, human were the only ones to have the freedom of choice. Therefore creating a being that had no choice but to worship does not count and will still not satisfy the desire of being acknowledged.
Quote:

Quote:
'This notion creates a predicament that God is just as needy as us, therefore his divinity is nothing but a fairy tale. He is just one of us!’


No, that is a Mistake. Not every action that emanates from this being can be reasoned or fathomed, after all, look at the realm of quantum physics, who can fathom that?!


Who are we to understand God? A nice way to get out of messy situations!

Realm of quantum physics! It's only a matter of time.

Quote:
Creating is not a sign of ‘neediness’ anymore then a king having a slave is a sign of an inability on his behalf.


The difference is a King can be removed from authority when needed, but your "invisible self-appointed king" punished those who oppose him by using fellow man as executioners.

Quote:
Quote:
‘God creates us out of nothingness to experience life and be put to the test. The vast majority according to the Abrahamic faiths will end up in a eternal torture of hellfire!!’


These questions amongst others don’t put a spanner in the works for those who believe in a God. Because unlike you, emotion is not a condition for his acceptance to be existed, they deem a God because of the Design Inference that can be made.


Are you suggesting that I used emotion to deduce there's no God! Now, That's a funny one!
I like the way you avoided the hellfire topic though, pretty sticky hey!

Quote:
Also, we have to understand wht you mean by nothingness. Because I’m not sure you understand what this term means, maybe you are thinking in terms of what some say ‘something from nothing’ as some say with regards to how this universe came into being. We are rather talking about God who can create without the need of ‘anything’. There is a subtle difference here that I think you should focus upon .


Thank you, I know what nothingness means in both scientific and theological terms. You have quoted my reference of nothingness in my blog out of context! This was not related to creation, it was related to punishment. I suggested why would a merciful God use eternal hellfire as a punishment for those who rejected him, instead of changing them to the state they're originated from "nothingness". Does Allah need revenge?

Quote:
Furthermore, lets say that God is evil, for the sake of argument. ( even though he isn’t). What will you do against him? What would you be able to do to fight or resist him?………..let me categorically say: NOTHING ( no Alll_Brains, not even a blog!)


Is this the best you could do. You and your bully God are telling me, it's what it's and you can't do a damn thing about it?

This is where you're wrong, I can do something about it. I am rejecting your Allah, educating the world about him and showing everyone the number of logical fallacies you have committed! Nothing beats that last comment of your though, what are you going to do about it? A typical bully attitude, what a shitty doctrine!

Quote:
Can I take this opportunity to ask you please,

Do you believe in God? I wasn’t too sure from reading your blog. Remember, to answer my points please. The crux of your discussion, I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that a God cannot communicate or produce a heaven and a hell.


I am atheist to the current belief and interpretation of God by all known religions.
I am agnostic to what I don't know "yet".

Good talking to you and hope you chat with all of us when you have the time.

All_Brains
Ameen

Quote:
You accused the blog of being pretentious and some of the questions being false without giving examples! This is a logical fallacy.


no it won't qualify as being a logical fallacy bearing in mind if you scrolled down and read what i wrote, you wouldn't say it. So i gave you the examples of hell, existence of evil, not being precursors of atheism, because they do not explain away a design inference.

Quote:

I am glad you're happy, although such forums are giving Islam real hard time and not easily refutable.


I haven't come across this. if FFI is giving Islaam a real hard time, then, theres problems! ( for your camp anyway)

Quote:
I disagree. I alone have helped 23 people in the past 3 years to step out of the dark.


Sure you did Smile


Quote:
Now, if you're going to go into a debate with me, then you better research and come up with references.

Can you please provide the Quranic verses or hadiths that show that God was creating from eternity?


Sure, please read the sharh of aqeedah atahawiyyah by imam izz al hanafi. under the point where tahawi says that Allah 'was the creator before he created anything' its one of his 100 or so points, i will find you it if you can't find it.

pls also read this link : http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=416 i'm not sure you may understand it though.

you can also see on this link too http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=31&sub_cat_id=810



Quote:
And even if Allah has had many creations before man, according to his messages and books, human were the only ones to have the freedom of choice.


Wrong, we are talking about creations before the appearance of the universe. think of the multiverse to get a clearer picture. And who told you humans were the only one to have freedom of choice?

Quote:
Therefore creating a being that had no choice but to worship does not count and will still not satisfy the desire of being acknowledged.



I'm sorry, please explain. Creating something to be acknowldged doesn't show the lack of existence of a creator, or the lack of possibility that other beings exist, for we know that Angels were praising Allah.
Again, all these questions, do not show whether a creator exists or not, but are merely theortical discussions on his motives.


Quote:
Who are we to understand God? A nice way to get out of messy situations!

Realm of quantum physics! It's only a matter of time


no you misunderstand, how can we fathom the 'howness' of God or his nature, but his attributes and names can be comprehended.
Imagine an ant on a football. to the ant, he won;t realise he is on a 3 dimesnional object, because he will always see a in a 2 dimensional realm


As for Quantum physics, then youmay misunderstanmd, sure it may only be a matter of time, but quantum physics, is also said to be indetermistic, there will always be a possibility we will never understand it.

Quote:
The difference is a King can be removed from authority when needed, but your "invisible self-appointed king" punished those who oppose him by using fellow man as executioners.


this is an emotional point that doesn't serve any prupose or answer anything I said. if the King of the universe does this, what will you do about it?

Quote:
Are you suggesting that I used emotion to deduce there's no God! Now, That's a funny one!
I like the way you avoided the hellfire topic though, pretty sticky hey!


I answered the point here, and elsewhere on your forum. such notions of hell do not disapporove the existence of God, if so how?
the point is not a difficult one at all.

Quote:
Thank you, I know what nothingness means in both scientific and theological terms. You have quoted my reference of nothingness in my blog out of context! This was not related to creation, it was related to punishment. I suggested why would a merciful God use eternal hellfire as a punishment for those who rejected him, instead of changing them to the state they're originated from "nothingness". Does Allah need revenge?


i'm not sure you do, but lets proceed. Again, you are asking question which have nothing to do with whether a God exists or not, and oif God wants to punish though who don't accept him, how do you avoid his punishment then? of course, just acknowldge him then....its not brain science!

And if you don't like it....well, tough! Its his domain, its his creation, what are young to do about it?


Quote:
This is where you're wrong, I can do something about it. I am rejecting your Allah, educating the world about him and showing everyone the number of logical fallacies you have committed!


lol, your saying it as if Allah NEEDS YOU?! You think the Muslim ummah know about this insignificant community of apostates? it was sheer luck i came to the forum before this one, I never even knew murtaads existed,!

i think your tricking yourself, your plots and plans, will fail, fact, don't believe me? Watch this space. Somehow, I don't see the murtaad line growing strong.

Quote:
Good talking to you and hope you chat with all of us when you have the time.

All_Brains


thanks.
cosmicdancer

Re: Some comments from your blog

Hi Ameen,

You seem to frequent a great many ex-Muslim sites and forums.

Whats the deal with you?

Smile
Ameen

Re: Some comments from your blog

cosmicdancer wrote:
Hi Ameen,

You seem to frequent a great many ex-Muslim sites and forums.

Whats the deal with you?

Smile


Hi Abu Ali

go read about hujjah Wink i. e establishing proof
also, you speak in theplural, what sites have yous een me at, i have been only to one where the intellectual discussions were null and void, and where one guy, is trying his hardest to get an internet girlfriend....no which one I mean abu ali?
All_Brains

Hello Ameen

I am Psychologist and my blog is designed to analyse the "howness and whyness" of God through his own stories, uttering, messengers and books.

Analysing all of the above proved to that the author of the Quran and all other religions is nothing but human.

Allah is not 100% mystery, for he justified his conduct in his books, so we should be able to analyse this, through his conduct!

I have analysed this Allah and found him a phony!

Now, let's leave all the generalisation as it will not lead to much.

Would you like to enter into a one in one debate with me? We will be discussing Allah, Quran, Hadith and the message of Islam.

Let me know if you're ok with this offer and I will open a thread in the appropriate section of the forum.

Regards
All_Brains
Ameen

All_Brains wrote:
Hello Ameen

I am Psychologist and my blog is designed to analyse the "howness and whyness" of God through his own stories, uttering, messengers and books.

Analysing all of the above proved to that the author of the Quran and all other religions is nothing but human.

Allah is not 100% mystery, for he justified his conduct in his books, so we should be able to analyse this, through his conduct!

I have analysed this Allah and found him a phony!

Now, let's leave all the generalisation as it will not lead to much.

Would you like to enter into a one in one debate with me? We will be discussing Allah, Quran, Hadith and the message of Islam.

Let me know if you're ok with this offer and I will open a thread in the appropriate section of the forum.

Regards
All_Brains


All_Brains,

You are now a psychologist? I thought you was a linguist? or I thought you studied what every scientist said and every social scientist said on a particular issue?

So which of these are you? Maybe all of the above! Gosh you must be so clever, I'm not sure i would be able to compete with such intelligence Smile

As I said above, I might not have time to stay because of my busy schedule and bearing in mind that many points i have said so far haven;t been answered, I'm not sure your understanding the crux of the issue, like one forum I was on before, they were baffled, they resorted to copying and pasting on FFI! ( as if this was research!)

maybe we can answer the above points i.e how does a the attribution of evil = non existence? whatis the logical explanantion of the appearance of design we have in the universe?

thanks.
All_Brains

Ameen wrote:
All_Brains,

You are now a psychologist? I thought you was a linguist? or I thought you studied what every scientist said and every social scientist said on a particular issue?


I have several educational degrees and indeed I teach Psychology in a reputable university in the west. I am also linguist due to my very first BA.
Quote:

So which of these are you? Maybe all of the above! Gosh you must be so clever, I'm not sure i would be able to compete with such intelligence Smile


I am indeed all of the above and will not tolerate personal attacks. Please focus on the matter, I don't know you and I have no intention of mocking your person. Let's stick to our views.

Quote:
As I said above, I might not have time to stay because of my busy schedule and bearing in mind that many points i have said so far haven;t been answered, I'm not sure your understanding the crux of the issue, like one forum I was on before, they were baffled, they resorted to copying and pasting on FFI! ( as if this was research!)


Trust me I understand the "crux" of the issue and please stop claiming victory before we even start debating. It's up to you, I am challenging you to prove that Islam and Allah are false and fail your duty as a Muslim to defend your religion.

Quote:
maybe we can answer the above points i.e how does a the attribution of evil = non existence? whatis the logical explanantion of the appearance of design we have in the universe?


I actually answered this several times, but here its goes again.

Evil = non-existence of this particular God aka (Allah) and not the possibility of a God at all.

They're too separate issues. That's why in my article, I ended it with the phrase "I know (this one) is a phone!"
Ameen

Quote:
I have several educational degrees and indeed I teach Psychology in a reputable university in the west. I am also linguist due to my very first BA.


Smile sure.

Quote:
Trust me I understand the "crux" of the issue and please stop claiming victory before we even start debating. It's up to you, I am challenging you to prove that Islam and Allah are false and fail your duty as a Muslim to defend your religion.


you are challenging me to prove that Allah and Islaam is false? Who ever said i said it was false?
also, its not the duty for every Muslim to defend every attack upon the religion.

Quote:
I actually answered this several times, but here its goes again.

Evil = non-existence of this particular God aka (Allah) and not the possibility of a God at all.



'and not the possibility of a God at all' sorry explain this part.

I think I'm making it hard upon you, so let me make it very easy, maybe you can just give a yes or a no to make it easy upon you.

1. Does evil demolish the concept of there being a God? Yes or No.

2. Can God be evil? Yes or No?

3. If God exists, can he communicate with the creation? Yes or No

4. If he communicates with the creation, can he do thing you don't like, or want?
All_Brains

Ameen wrote:
Quote:
I have several educational degrees and indeed I teach Psychology in a reputable university in the west. I am also linguist due to my very first BA.


Smile sure.

Quote:
Trust me I understand the "crux" of the issue and please stop claiming victory before we even start debating. It's up to you, I am challenging you to prove that Islam and Allah are false and fail your duty as a Muslim to defend your religion.


you are challenging me to prove that Allah and Islaam is false? Who ever said i said it was false?
also, its not the duty for every Muslim to defend every attack upon the religion.

Quote:
I actually answered this several times, but here its goes again.

Evil = non-existence of this particular God aka (Allah) and not the possibility of a God at all.



'and not the possibility of a God at all' sorry explain this part.

I think I'm making it hard upon you, so let me make it very easy, maybe you can just give a yes or a no to make it easy upon you.

1. Does evil demolish the concept of there being a God? Yes or No.

2. Can God be evil? Yes or No?

3. If God exists, can he communicate with the creation? Yes or No

4. If he communicates with the creation, can he do thing you don't like, or want?


Mate! I am not that naive to go into a "leading" line of questions!

In a one on one debate I am going to prove to you that Allah is not a God, Muhammad wasn't sent by God and Islam is a man-made religion. Third and last time, are you interested and do you have the ability to prove me wrong???
HomoErectus

Lets take a quick look at the entity of this alleged "God"....

I was always asking myself, why religions, [Islam is just one of those] insist on ONE god?
Who says so ?
A "prophet"...
or maybe many prophets.....
thousands of prophets have been roaming the earth!
Who knows whatever they said....

And thats all for a reasoning?

How did they know?

Oh, yeah, god told them!
As they are "prophets"!!!!
Its their Job to have talks with this singular "God" !
They get payed for that!

Couldn't it also be that there is a whole football-team, including trainers, docs, managers, and a group of cheer-leaders - all of 'em "gods" ?

And WHY not ?
By WHAT binding REASON ?

and as for - "always was and will always be" - the same question: says WHO ?

again - the "prophets"... the ones who's job it is and who are getting payed for predictions of all kinds, end-time scenarios, heavenly remedies [camel urine!], etc...

Maaaan... those "prophets" must have been a nuisance !!!!
On every streetcorner, not only one, nooo, they stood and proclaimed in bunches, heaps, bundles !!!!

Maybe this "God", and all the other "gods", were "NOT always there and will always be there" !!
Maybe its the other way around, they die on a daily basis, and re-create themselves every other day, or next week... or never?

Its a whole lotta questions, when you question everything !

And WHY not questioning everything ?

Ahhhh... because this specific singular entity has SAID so.... don't question, don't ask... just "believe" !!!

OR ELSE......... Hellfire !

Maybe "Hell" is a hell of an interesting place to be......
Meet Mohammad, et al...


back to the control-switch, keeping all the flock in the herd !


Personally, I think that this entity "god" is a highly unfair thing !
Very undemocratic and egoistic, egocentric and maybe also a bit of an egomaniac !
Its always about HIM !!!!
And nobody else is ever able to climb onto his throne and take over!!!!

THIS is DICTATORSHIP !!!
In MY eyes !!

Viva la Revolucion !!
Ameen

I think I'm making it hard upon you, so let me make it very easy, maybe you can just give a yes or a no to make it easy upon you.

1. Does evil demolish the concept of there being a God? Yes or No.

2. Can God be evil? Yes or No? On what basis do you justify your answer?

3. If God exists, can he communicate with the creation? Yes or No

4. If he communicates with the creation, can he do things or want things you don't like, or want?
Ameen

Sorry and a further add on.

You say ''Allah is not a God''

I don't mean to be rude, but I feel that many people from egypt, pride themslves on this and that qualification, in fact, you get soem Muslims who are qualified in certain arena's such as say, engineering, and then they believe they become an expert in every field. Its not your faultm its your culture......sometiems even their qualifications become questionable when they speak...

I think my simple line of questions is taking its toll on you, for you are unable to answer basic questions, so what about in a debate, maybe we can answer each other in this format and see where things lead to.

your above quote 'Allah is not God' is a silly one. For despite being an 'arab' you claim to make out their is a difference! So for teh record, Allah is God, its just an arabic expression. i think 34 years as an arab, and 17 years as a 'muslim' and you still don't know this?! i wonder how coptics say the name God..............I'm sure the next accusation is that the Muslims beleive in a moon god!!
lol.

All_brains.....i think you mean:
that you beleive in a cosmic Designer, and you do not believe in a 'God' as detailed by abarahmic faiths, or for that matter any religion. THIS is what you mean but you cannot figure out the terms being used here!

But since you are saying God cannot be this or that i.e he cannot beccalled Allah ( loool) then tell me, how did you come to the knowledge of Allah's attributes.
HomoErectus

Dear Ameen

Although you adress brainsout, I feel like intruding again.

Look

The point is - there is no proof for a "god", just like there is no proof there is no "god".

All the rest is speculations over speculations and interpretations of speculations, assumptions and belief, and re-interpretation of all the already chewed-on human inventions.

You CLAIM... but no more!

Others, try to disprove your claims, on various levels.

Not because you arent allowed to believe in whatever you want...

You might as well believe in the famous Teapot flying around Mars.
Who cares?

The point is that you are adhering to the most violent and murderous ideology available on this planet!

It KILLS !
And not only that, but commits any crime possible!

AS for your questions:

1) "good and evil" are moral standards, and get defined by the society.
No need to invoke a "god" here!

Questions 2/3/4 are kinda obsolete, when you go from the point that there is no such "god" available for you to interpret your human concepts onto.
Ameen

Dear homoerectus,


I was leading to the points you mention, and i have dealt with some of hwat you have said, though not much in detail.

We must talk of good/best explanantions, the term proof is a term that has many meanings and connotations.

there is not a proof of many things but we are certain, the sun will rise 2mrw, prove it? you exist, prove it?

But does believeing in this make some one irrational because there is no empirical proof?

What we are saying here is that a esign inference requires a designer, if it doesn't, then how does the apperance of design arise?

furthermore, you are talking of a teapot behind mars.......you are totally misunderstanding the point. i think you got this off dawkins right? thisis not an xplanantion of design inference or why we beleive in a God in the 1st place!?

As for murderous ideology.......you sit behind a computer screen, and say these things, dont you read the news, dot you read the papers?

Who is invading thecountries today? Who is supporting dictatorships, Who is arming other countries with weapons? who is threatening to invade Iran? I think the threat is coming form other then Islaam and the Muslims. maybe we should see the facts rather then make up things as we go along.



hope that helps.
Guest

Ameen wrote:
Dear homoerectus,


I was leading to the points you mention, and i have dealt with some of hwat you have said, though not much in detail



Dear Ameen

So, what came out, after you "dealt" with some of what I said.... ?
Smile


Quote:

We must talk of good/best explanantions, the term proof is a term that has many meanings and connotations.



Could you please list these "many meanings" ?
I'm really curious to see the different meanings!
Smile


Quote:

there is not a proof of many things but we are certain, the sun will rise 2mrw, prove it? you exist, prove it?



Our world's circular motion around the sun is scientifically proven!
And the sun will "not rise", the quran is simply WRONG in this, its the world who moves, not the sun, and we turn into the position to see the sun everydy, due to our own ROTATION.


Quote:

But does believeing in this make some one irrational because there is no empirical proof?



Its true, not everything - so far - can be scientifically proven, by the standards of today!
Which implies that possibly tomorrow, we will know more!
Whats still in the dark today, may be throughly analyzed and proven.... next year!
It has always been like that, and probably will be like that in the future!
Its a process!

BELIEFs are merely assumptions, hypothesis, acting "AS IF..." - no more!

Psychologically its well known WHY people adopt some "belief"!


Quote:

What we are saying here is that a esign inference requires a designer, if it doesn't, then how does the apperance of design arise?



Have you ever been in a car-accident?
Hopefully not, but I'm sure you have seen the scattered parts on TV.

An accident was not planned, but still it took place!
When certain factors get together, you are likely to sooner or later to get into a car-accident!
Its not even so many factors.....
1st-you need to sit in a car, 2nd-you drive on a highway, 3rd-you are speeding, 4th-you drink a bottle of Whisky while you drive.


Quote:

furthermore, you are talking of a teapot behind mars.......you are totally misunderstanding the point. i think you got this off dawkins right? thisis not an xplanantion of design inference or why we beleive in a God in the 1st place!?



The "flying teapot" comes from Bertrand Russel [google him up], and Dawkins just picked up on it, since its such a nice alternative!

So, WHY do you believe "in a God in the 1st place" ?


Quote:

As for murderous ideology.......you sit behind a computer screen, and say these things, dont you read the news, dot you read the papers?



Compared to what muslims do, Americans are "harmless as children"!
Like you said - just read the news !
Muslims killing muslims as well as non-muslims on a DAILY BASIS, and in numbers!
And it was like that since Islam came up!
Mohammad was the number 1 criminal of his times!
His wealth was accumulated by robbing, stealing, ambushing, terrorizing only!
He became the wealthiest man of Arabia, while before his jihad he had NOTHING, but crept under the protecting wings of a woman who ran her own business, who even helped him becoming a "profit"!
This "role model" was of a rather poor appearance, before he became "the profit"!

Islam kills - face the facts!


Quote:

Who is invading thecountries today? Who is supporting dictatorships, Who is arming other countries with weapons? who is threatening to invade Iran? I think the threat is coming form other then Islaam and the Muslims. maybe we should see the facts rather then make up things as we go along.



Didn't Iran try to cut off parts of Iraq, when the war between Iran and Iraq took place?
Wasn't Saddam invading Kuweit, when it all started off, for Iraq ?

But I wont argue with you at that point, I'm not gonna defend the invasion of Iraq.
It was/is a tragic event, for the civillian populations, and most of all, for the iraqi women, who now have to put up with radical Islamists, changing their status back to the 7th century!

I have been to Baghdad, it was a fairly liberal society, back then.


Quote:

hope that helps.



Well, I do hope you learn to ask questions... inside!
HomoErectus

Sorry, I didn't log in, so my last comment comes under the name of "guest" !
All_Brains

HomoErectus wrote:
Sorry, I didn't log in, so my last comment comes under the name of "guest" !


Macht nichts!
Baal

Is this a one one one debate?
Mutley

It blogged me down. Self glorification. Hey world, listen to me!!! What about me? I'm important !!! The world couldn't survive without my opinions.
All_Brains

Baal wrote:
Is this a one one one debate?


well, I invited this gentleman several times, but he just disappeared!!!

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