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humandecency

The Lord's Prayer confirms the Cran.

"And lead us not to temptation but deliver us from evil" smacks of the islamic "Allah is the greatest deceiver".

I guess this part has not been corrupted in the estimation of muslims.

The prayer suggests that God is doing the work normally associated with the devil.
Raza

Do you have the verse number?
humandecency

Raza wrote:
Do you have the verse number?


Why? You don't believe me?

Do you not know about it? You are the Muslim, not me. So you should know and give me the verse number, and then refute it. Razz Very Happy Razz
Raza

humandecency wrote:
Raza wrote:
Do you have the verse number?


Why? You don't believe me?

Do you not know about it? You are the Muslim, not me. So you should know and give me the verse number, and then refute it. Razz Very Happy Razz

Do you have the verse number or not?
Sanitarium

Matthew 6 - KJV wrote:


1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
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14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Source



Luke 11:1-4 - KVJ wrote:

1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Source




Quran 3 wrote:


Yusuf Ali: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Pickthal: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

Shakir: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.


Also read This
Always_Faithful

Oh God, please don't tell me we're going to get into that makr debate again!
Sanitarium

Always_Faithful wrote:
Oh God, please don't tell me we're going to get into that makr debate again!


AF! AF!! Heya! Yes I think its heading that way! Quick go bookmark your FFI posts Very Happy

-Sani
brainout

"Lead" and the subjunctive aorist

Greek verb eispherw, used there in Luke 11:4, etc., is in the subjunctive aorist. The subjunctive is a purpose clause, so it is avowing that God will not lead them into temptation, not a plea (with the implication that God tempts). See James 1:13 (in context from 1:1).  

The reason one prays that (in one's own words, it's just a guideline), is to affirm that any temptation is NOT coming from God, but that instead God will deliver one out of temptation (hence the tie in Matt6:13, which has the full phrase).  Prayer is a Priesthood privilege and so it has legal connotations, i.e., you admit when you've sinned, you acknowledge God, you certify your requests via praying them in Christ's name (that's your juridical standing, why you are a priest under the High Priest).  Pre-Cross, the rules were slightly different (post-Cross we are Royal Priests), but the essential mechanic was the same.  If you went before the King, you'd have certain protocol, because it's an official visit.  That kind of idea.  Every prayer is before the Throne room of God (versus the normal 'prayer' of conversation with God, like David did).

The so-called Lord's prayer isn't even a prayer, but a set of guidelines for the apostles, as you'll see in the  Matthew 6 context, which is right after Matt5, when He leaves the crowds to teach the disciples separately in the mountains (hill country).  

Why Christians mouth it mindlessly, I'll never know.  It's an outline.  The words are your own, and the outline helps you think out what you want to say.  See, the Pharisees, like the Muslims, were constantly chanting prayers they'd memorized.  So you have the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, with the latter being praised, but the former not (Luke 18 ).

Hope this clears up things for Muslims who don't know much about Bible. Smile  It's hard for Christians to learn Koran, hard for Muslims to learn Bible.
HomoErectus

Re: The Lord's Prayer confirms the Cran.

humandecency wrote:
"Allah is the greatest deceiver".

I guess this part has not been corrupted in the estimation of muslims.

The prayer suggests that God is doing the work normally associated with the devil.


Exactly so !

I always wondered about this verse....


And what can you make of a "god", telling you he is the "best deceiver" !
I would instantly get doubts about just every word this "God" is telling me, as he might be DECEIVING me !!!

And How could I [his creation] know his mind ?

How would I ever know if he is true or not ?

Maybe he'd qualify as a JESTER, a clown, but no more !

"HI... This is your "God" speaking..., you better follow my command, or else...
but watch out, because I am the best of deceivers !"





Quote:

Etymology of the Word Makara

Sura 3:54 says that Allah makara. The Arabic word makara means to deceive, scheme, or plan. The Arabic Bible in Genesis 3:1 uses the same word for Satan. However, the Vand Dyck and Jerusalem Bibles use the root word hayala.


This word "schemer" (maakir) is a very strong word which Wehr and Abdel-Nour define as "sly, cunning, wily". The Arabic-Arabic unjid defines it with khuda`a which means exactly the same thing (by Bill Campbell in his book The Qur'an and the Bible in the Light of History and Science p.217-218).


http://www.muslimhope.com/DeceptionInIslam.htm#_Toc170282495
Sanitarium

Re: The Lord's Prayer confirms the Cran.

HomoErectus wrote:


And what can you make of a "god", telling you he is the "best deceiver" !
I would instantly get doubts about just every word this "God" is telling me, as he might be DECEIVING me !!!

Ah! Glad I'm not the only one who saw it like this. As soon as I read that (and the non 'polite' "plotter" translation) its case closed on Islam.

An admitted liar cannot be trusted.
katlike

I always took the "led us not into temptation" as asking God to help keep you away from temptations.  It is acknowledging that your simply a mere human prone to mistakes and frailites and you need help staying away from whatever your temptations may be.

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