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ibnishaq

The qu'ran and homosexuality

Hello,

I find qu'ran mentions homosexuality 5 times.

SURA IV: 19-21

19. But whoso rebels against God and His Apostle, and transgresses His bounds, He will make him enter into fire, and dwell therein for aye; and for him is shameful woe.

20. Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way.

21. And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.

SURA VII: 78-84 [On Lot at Sodom]

78. Then the earthquake took them, and in the morning they lay prone in their dwellings;

79. and he turned away from them and said, 'O my people! I did preach to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice; but ye love not sincere advisers.'

80. And Lot, when he said to his people, 'Do ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in?

81. verily, ye approach men with lust rather than women- nay, ye are a people who exceed.'

82.But his people's answer only was to say, 'Turn them out of your village, verily, they are a people who pretend to purity.'

83. But we saved him and his people, except his wife, who was of those who lingered;

84. and we rained down upon them a rain;- see then how was the end of the sinners!

SURA XI: 77-84 [On Lot at Sodom]

77. And when our messengers came to Lot, he was grieved for them; but his arm was straitened for them, and he said, 'This is a troublesome day!'

78. And his people came to him, rushing at him, for before that they used to work evil. He 'Said, 'O my people! here are my daughters, they are purer for you; then, fear God, and do not disgrace me through my guests;- is there not among you one right-thinking man?'

79. They said, 'Thou knowest that we have no claim on thy daughters; verily, thou knowest what we want!'

80. He said, 'Had I but power over you; or could I but resort to some strong column....!'

81. (The angels) said, 'O Lot! verily, we are the messengers of thy Lord, they shall certainly not reach thee; then travel with thy people in the darkness of the night, and let none of you look round except thy wife: verily, there shall befall her what befalls them. Verily, their appointment is for the morning! and is not the morning nigh?'

82. And when our bidding came, we made their high parts their low parts. And we rained down upon them stones and baked clay one after another,

83. marked, from thy Lord, and these are not so far from the unjust!

84. And unto Midian (we sent) their brother Sho'haib. He said, 'O my people! serve God; ye have no god but Him, and give not short measure and weight. Verily, 'I see you well off; but, verily, I fear for you the torments of an encompassing day.

SURA XXVI: 160-174 [On Lot and Sodom]


160. The people of Lot called the apostles liars;

161 when their brother Lot said to them, 'Do ye not fear?

162. verily, I am to you a faithful apostle;

163. then fear God and obey me.

164 I do not ask you for it any hire; my hire is only with the Lord of the worlds.

165 Do ye approach males of all the world

166 and leave what God your Lord has created for you of your wives? nay, but [b]ye are people who transgress!
'[/b]

167 They said, 'Surely, if thou dost not desist, O Lot! thou shalt be of those who are expelled!'

168 Said he, 'Verily, I am of those who hate your deed;

169 my Lord! save me and my people from what they do.'

170 And we saved him and his people all together,

171 except an old woman amongst those who lingered.

172 Then we destroyed the others;

173 and we rained down upon them a rain; and evil was the rain of those who were warned.

174 Verily, in that is a sign; but most of them will never be believers.


175 And, verily, thy Lord He is mighty, merciful, compassionate.

SURA XXIX: 28-35 [On Lot and Sodom]

28. And (remmber) Lot when he said to his people, 'Verily, ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in!

29. What! do ye approach men? (or Do you commit sexual acts with men?) and stop folks on the highway? And approach in your assembly sin?' but the answer of his people was only to say, 'Bring us God's torment, if thou art of those who speak the truth!'

30. Said he, 'My Lord! help me against a people who do evil!'

31. And when our messengers came to Abraham with the glad tidings, they said, 'We are about to destroy the people of this city. Verily, the people thereof are wrong-doers.'

32. Said he, 'Verily, in it is Lot; they said, 'We know best who is therein; we shall of a surety save him and his people, except his wife, who is of those who linger.'

33. And when our messengers came to Lot, he was vexed for them, and his arm was straitened for them; and they said, 'Fear not, neither grieve; we are about to save thee and thy people, except thy wife, who is of those who linger.

34. Verily, we are about to send down upon the people of this city a horror from heaven, for that they have sinned;

35. and we have left therefrom a manifest sign unto a people who have sense.'



Conclusion: the qu'ran is strongly against homosexuality, saying that one should be lashed for having gay sex, saying that gays are "people who exceed and transgress" saying that he "hates the deed" and killing the people of soddom with brimstone.


My question is WHY? I am bisexual and I have a boyfriend who I love deeply. I do not hurt anyone by having a boyfriend. I did not choose to be bi. I swear by my mother that I did not choose to be bi. I spent so much of my life trying NOT to be bi. But I can not choose. I like other guys. I have a boyfriend whom I love dearly. And yes, we do have sex. But we are hurting not a single soul. We are doing nothing to hurt anyone or to cause any harm.

I give a lot of my money to charity. I volunteer at a local soup kitchen. Every March I participate in the annual park clean up. Twice a year I participate at events to help needy children. I help the special olympics for those who are mentally challenged every year as well.

I am a GOOD person. I do not eat meat. I would NEVER hurt a soul even if I had to die. I try to be so nice to everyone as much as I can.

So why am I sinning simply because I love a guy? We are both adults, both consenting.

It tears me apart to feel like a sinner when I am so innocent. I hate feeling like I will be in eternal hell all because I like a guy!

So please, muslims, tell me what I am doing that is just such an abomination and so terrible? Tell me what I am doing that is so unnatural? Because I will tell you right now that most people agree that homosexuality is not a choice. Look at what American Psychological Association says.
Quote:
Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.


So please tell me what I am doing that is so wrong. I did NOT choose to be this way. And yes, I love a guy, and we do sexual things, but we do it out of LOVE not out of LUST. We do it to bring us closer to each other through a bond. We love each other and we are not doing anything to hurt others.
Tvebak

Hi Shaq

You are not doing anything wrong. Despite what most of the different religions preach (and sadly also monotheism 4.0 Bahai') there's is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's completely natural, many other animalgroups have homosexual relations aswell. There's different reasons to why people are homosexuals (or bi-) and some are "made" homosexuals from birth. Live it if you want to.

Cheers
ibnishaq

Tvebak wrote:
Hi Shaq

You are not doing anything wrong. Despite what most of the different religions preach (and sadly also monotheism 4.0 Bahai') there's is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's completely natural, many other animalgroups have homosexual relations aswell. There's different reasons to why people are homosexuals (or bi-) and some are "made" homosexuals from birth. Live it if you want to.

Cheers

thanks for the soothing response.

but for some reason i still believe in islam and i still feel soooo bad for just being me, you know?
Tvebak

ibnishaq wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi Shaq

You are not doing anything wrong. Despite what most of the different religions preach (and sadly also monotheism 4.0 Bahai') there's is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's completely natural, many other animalgroups have homosexual relations aswell. There's different reasons to why people are homosexuals (or bi-) and some are "made" homosexuals from birth. Live it if you want to.

Cheers

thanks for the soothing response.

but for some reason i still believe in islam and i still feel soooo bad for just being me, you know?


Your welcome

But sorry can't say that I understand you completely, as I have not been in a situation like that. But I can try... and believing that the "divine being" hates what "I" am, if I was a homosexual that must be quite disturbing. But that just absurd in my opinion. The "divine being" made "I" and know exactly how "I"'m gonna end up. That's cruel and sadistic and not very "divine".

Cheers
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

“A whole new kingdom of gaydom!”

From the various passages in the Qur’an you can in fact interpret ‘homosexuality’ as not that big of a sin. 4:21 shows that bumming another man does not merit death: if they repent after punishment you should allow them to go free.

Rereading the story of Lot leads me to this conclusion: that Lot himself condemns homosexuality, not Allah. Now you can, by extension, claim that Lot as a ‘prophet’ would only act in a manner sanctioned by God, but none of those passages about Lot show God as condemning homosexuality.

To summarise the story: Lot gets majorly pissed off at the residents of Sodom having sex with guys. He takes them to task for this. They tell him to shut up or they’ll beat him and his family and run them out of town. He then cries out to God to save him from an arse–whooping. God rains down fire & brimstone upon the whole town aside from some anonymous old woman.

Interesting that only the ahadith strongly cast fulminations upon homosexuals!
Tvebak

Re: “A whole new kingdom of gaydom!”

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
From the various passages in the Qur’an you can in fact interpret ‘homosexuality’ as not that big of a sin. 4:21 shows that bumming another man does not merit death: if they repent after punishment you should allow them to go free.

Rereading the story of Lot leads me to this conclusion: that Lot himself condemns homosexuality, not Allah. Now you can, by extension, claim that Lot as a ‘prophet’ would only act in a manner sanctioned by God, but none of those passages about Lot show God as condemning homosexuality.

To summarise the story: Lot gets majorly pissed off at the residents of Sodom having sex with guys. He takes them to task for this. They tell him to shut up or they’ll beat him and his family and run them out of town. He then cries out to God to save him from an arse–whooping. God rains down fire & brimstone upon the whole town aside from some anonymous old woman.

Interesting that only the ahadith strongly cast fulminations upon homosexuals!


The whole town gets punished for homosexuality. That's the morale of the story, as I've understood it. But I agree that the quran does not seem to have anything directly on "deathpenalty" for homosexuality.

Cheers
ibnishaq

I can agree that it says nothing about the death penalty which makes me question the hadiths because they contradict the qu'ran!
Tvebak

ibnishaq wrote:
I can agree that it says nothing about the death penalty which makes me question the hadiths because they contradict the qu'ran!


Hi shaq

Cause one book does not have anything on a subject and another has does not mean they contradict on the matter. They are just different. The quran does not say "don't punish the homosexuals".

Cheers
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

“I’m a massive gayer!”

Tvebak wrote:
The whole town gets punished for homosexuality. That's the morale of the story, as I've understood it.

So people tell us. And perhaps when Muhammad related this tale to his followers they would take it the same way, but the wording makes it seem more to me like God punished the whole town because Lot cried out for help. And Lot cried out for help because the town threatened to beat the crap out of him.

(Aside: I love your sig, and Daniel Dennett in particular )
Tvebak

Re: “I’m a massive gayer!”

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
The whole town gets punished for homosexuality. That's the morale of the story, as I've understood it.

So people tell us. And perhaps when Muhammad related this tale to his followers they would take it the same way, but the wording makes it seem more to me like God punished the whole town because Lot cried out for help. And Lot cried out for help because the town threatened to beat the crap out of him.

(Aside: I love your sig, and Daniel Dennett in particular )


Haha "daddy kill the evil ones they are teasing". No in my opinion it's perfectly clear that they are punished becaused they did "evil" trangressed the boundaries of ""gods" law" etc.

Fx.
29.31 "When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime.""

Yes Daniel Dennett is a good read. A philosopher to remember in the future.

Cheers
Baal

Re: “A whole new kingdom of gaydom!”

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
From the various passages in the Qur’an you can in fact interpret ‘homosexuality’ as not that big of a sin. 4:21 shows that bumming another man does not merit death: if they repent after punishment you should allow them to go free.

Rereading the story of Lot leads me to this conclusion: that Lot himself condemns homosexuality, not Allah. Now you can, by extension, claim that Lot as a ‘prophet’ would only act in a manner sanctioned by God, but none of those passages about Lot show God as condemning homosexuality.

To summarise the story: Lot gets majorly pissed off at the residents of Sodom having sex with guys. He takes them to task for this. They tell him to shut up or they’ll beat him and his family and run them out of town. He then cries out to God to save him from an arse–whooping. God rains down fire & brimstone upon the whole town aside from some anonymous old woman.

Interesting that only the ahadith strongly cast fulminations upon homosexuals!

What happens when they do not repent?
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

And here we see the incompleteness of the Qur’an: it does not state what to do if they do not repent! Hence why people feel so eager to turn to Ahadith: because it fills in the huge gaps left by the Qur’an.
AhmedBahgat

Tvebak wrote:
Hi Shaq

You are not doing anything wrong.


That is from your perspective as a flawed human, ibnishaq is asking why the God of the Quran hates the queers, your answer is plain crap and does not answer his question
AhmedBahgat

Re: “A whole new kingdom of gaydom!”

Baal wrote:
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
From the various passages in the Qur’an you can in fact interpret ‘homosexuality’ as not that big of a sin. 4:21 shows that bumming another man does not merit death: if they repent after punishment you should allow them to go free.

Rereading the story of Lot leads me to this conclusion: that Lot himself condemns homosexuality, not Allah. Now you can, by extension, claim that Lot as a ‘prophet’ would only act in a manner sanctioned by God, but none of those passages about Lot show God as condemning homosexuality.

To summarise the story: Lot gets majorly pissed off at the residents of Sodom having sex with guys. He takes them to task for this. They tell him to shut up or they’ll beat him and his family and run them out of town. He then cries out to God to save him from an arse–whooping. God rains down fire & brimstone upon the whole town aside from some anonymous old woman.

Interesting that only the ahadith strongly cast fulminations upon homosexuals!

What happens when they do not repent?


Pazuzu  does not know what he is talking about, , of course Allah condemned hosexuality big times in the Quran, he called such people, the ones who do the KHABA'ITH

Now to answer your question above, we should continue to harm them for as long as they insist on their crime against the laws of Allah

for example if the harm is like 3 months in jail, then if they do it again when they come out, then we jail them again and again
Baal

Ahmed that does not answer Pazuzu, the jail term is *not* 3 month according to the islamic story, people will turn to hadith to find out.


Also I have never seen a court in the world that does not increase the punishment as the offender continues with his crime.

So if they start with 3 month, the next time will be harsher. You are being very sneaky trying to convince us that it will ALWAYS be 3 month, no matter how many time they get caught.
Tvebak

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
Hi Shaq

You are not doing anything wrong.


That is from your perspective as a flawed human, ibnishaq is asking why the God of the Quran hates the queers, your answer is plain crap and does not answer his question


I read his last section of questions as some "open questions". And in that context he's is not in my humanistic opinion doing anything wrong. The religious doctrines are awful in this context. The Bahai the least, cause they seem only to consider that "homosexuality" is a disease that people have to be "cured" from.
Anyways it's absurd from a "god" to prohibit natural love between two consenting adults.

Cheers.
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

And please note, AhmedBahgat, I did not state the Qur’an does not condemn homosexuality! The fact that one passage states you punish gays caught committing a lewd act pretty much says it DOES condemn it. I simply said that nothing in the story about Lot as it appears in the Qur’an says that Allah directly condemns it. Simply my opinion…
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
Ahmed that does not answer Pazuzu, the jail term is *not* 3 month according to the islamic story, people will turn to hadith to find out.


Also I have never seen a court in the world that does not increase the punishment as the offender continues with his crime.

So if they start with 3 month, the next time will be harsher. You are being very sneaky trying to convince us that it will ALWAYS be 3 month, no matter how many time they get caught.



well I said 3 months because that is what Egypt apply on the convict queers, on the otherhand if it was in my hand I would make it a year min in jail, and that is what Iezohuma means
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

One year??? Allah himself didn’t see fit to state a specific punishment for little bummer boy antics, so from where do you derive your authority?
AhmedBahgat

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
One year??? Allah himself didn’t see fit to state a specific punishment for little bummer boy antics, so from where do you derive your authority?



Well, Allah didn't tell us to obey Him and the prophet only, He told us to obey the followings:

1) Him
2) the prophet
3) Ulu Al Amar Minkum, i.e. the ones in charge of orders from among us, i.e. the law makers
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Ok…

AhmedBahgat wrote:
3) Ulu Al Amar Minkum, i.e. the ones in charge of orders from among us, i.e. the law makers

2 points, and my apologies if it sounds like I’ve taken to nitpicking!

  1. Where does it state this, and if it states it in ahadith how can you reject them?
  2. Do these lawmakers recommend a one–year jail sentence? If not, then what do they recommend?

Cheers, mate!
AhmedBahgat

Re: Ok…

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
3) Ulu Al Amar Minkum, i.e. the ones in charge of orders from among us, i.e. the law makers

2 points, and my apologies if it sounds like I’ve taken to nitpicking!


I should know soon if you are a time bandit and/or an arrogant ignorant as many of the free-minders are, however I respected some of your views over there, it made complete sense, but you are still confused regarding the whole picture, see, what I have is a complete and flawless picture of the religion of Islam, and all according to the Quran and common sense.

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
  1. Where does it state this, and if it states it in ahadith how can you reject them?


O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

[The Quran ; 4:59]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً (59)

-> See how clear it is: أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ, i.e. obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you

Now the words those in authority from among you, mean all those in charge of making the laws and enforcing it, (lawmakers, police officers and judges)

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
[list=2][*]Do these lawmakers recommend a one–year jail sentence? If not, then what do they recommend?[/list]


Whatever the lawmakers agree on must be accepted and obeyed, this is based on the assumption that we elect or hire knowledgable, intelligent and pious lawmakers and enforcers

now what they recommend varies from a cooutry to another due to many factors, however if the issue under my control then I will look at it from the Quran perspective only as follow:

1) it is described as a crime and we have been given a clear example that we still witness its evidences till today

2) the punishment is Iizohuma, i.e apply harm to both of the,

3) Jail is considerd harm, therefore a jail term is most appropriate while at the same time forcing them into an education course to realize how they will be held acccountable by Allah for their perverse actions that is in clear violation to Allah laws as well in clear violation to the common sense and nature, see the anus is not made for objects to be inserted in it unless you are sick and need to be checked, the vaginas also should never be licked neither penises should be sucked, all these sexual actions are clear perversity and the doers of such actions are nothing but sexmongers and freaks.

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Cheers, mate!


Salam
Pazuzu bin Hanbi

Re: Ok…

AhmedBahgat wrote:
I should know soon if you are a time bandit and/or an arrogant ignorant as many of the free-minders are, however I respected some of your views over there, it made complete sense, but you are still confused regarding the whole picture


I’ve told you on a different thread I do NOT post there! You’ve mistaken me for someone else with the same username…

AhmedBahgat wrote:
neither penises should be sucked
You wouldn’t say that if you’d experienced a hot babe doing it to you! Laughing
AhmedBahgat

Hello Ibnishaq and all,

Let me now reply to main thread by Ibnishaq, well, I see his thread is nothing but yet again another lame attempt to gain sympathy from the confused public, to hear many telling him what you do is not wrong, he just wants to convince himself that what he does is not wrong, while deep inside (I mean inside his heart, hehe), he knows well that what he does is fukin wrong in the eyes of God, his lame excuse that he is a kind man and is not hurting anyone is nothing but crap that only comes from a polluted satanic mind, let me explain:

The same bloody laws apply to the heterosexuals, i.e. a single man can not freely have sex with a single woman, and that is the exact fukin same as two homos or two lesbs, all are not hurting anyone, yet  all must be doomed according to the Quran  

It is one or the other, to be a Muslim and submit to Allah laws, or be a homo and get fuked in the anus or fuk another in the anus under the satanic illusion of making love and not hurting anyone, THE TRUTH IS THIS: YOU ARE HURTING YOUR LOVER AND YOURSELF, this is because if you want to be a Muslim you have to FORBID yourself from following Al Shahawat, do you know what Shahawat means?, well it means MAINLY  loving all such sexual perverse actions, however it also means other things like loving something else dearly, money for example. But let me concentrate on its main meaning of loving perverse sex, EVEN BETWEEN A MAN AND HIS OWN WIFE, he can’t fuk her in the anus, nor she can suck his penis neither he should lick her pussy, if you do, then you are following your Shahawat, a general English word for this Arabic word may be Desires, however a desire may cover a good cause, but Shahawat mainly covers a perverse cause, let me show you these compelling verses:

59: But there came after them an evil generation, who neglected prayers and followed the sensual desires, so they win meet perdition,

60: Except that who repented and believed and did good, these shall enter the garden, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly in any way:

61: The gardens of perpetuity which the Beneficent Allah has promised to His servants while unseen; surely His promise shall come to pass.

62: They shall not hear therein any vain discourse, but only: Peace, and they shall have their sustenance therein morning and evening.

63: This is the garden which We cause those of Our servants to inherit who are pious.

[The Quran ; 19:59-63]

فَخَلَفَ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ خَلْفٌ أَضَاعُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَاتَّبَعُوا الشَّهَوَاتِ فَسَوْفَ يَلْقَوْنَ غَيًّا (59)
إِلَّا مَن تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا فَأُوْلَئِكَ يَدْخُلُونَ الْجَنَّةَ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ شَيْئًا (60)
جَنَّاتِ عَدْنٍ الَّتِي وَعَدَ الرَّحْمَنُ عِبَادَهُ بِالْغَيْبِ إِنَّهُ كَانَ وَعْدُهُ مَأْتِيًّا (61)
لَا يَسْمَعُونَ فِيهَا لَغْوًا إِلَّا سَلَامًا وَلَهُمْ رِزْقُهُمْ فِيهَا بُكْرَةً وَعَشِيًّا (62)
تِلْكَ الْجَنَّةُ الَّتِي نُورِثُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا مَن كَانَ تَقِيًّا (63)

-> See how Allah is describing those who follow their Shahawat: But there came after them an evil generation, who neglected prayers and followed the  sensual desires,

-> Yet Allah is offering them every chance to repent: Except that who  repented and believed and did good, these shall enter the garden, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly in any way:, see how doing the good deeds with associated with belief and repentance from such acts, i.e. doing good deeds as ibnishaq does while claiming to be a believer but not repenting at the same time means nothing to Allah, ibnishaq must: تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا , i.e. repented and believed and did good, and if that is the case then he must know that he: shall not be dealt with unjustly in any way: as well he: shall enter the garden which is: The gardens of perpetuity which the Beneficent Allah has promised to His servants while unseen; surely His promise shall come to pass. and in such garden, the repenting and believing as well the good deed doer ibnishaq shall: not hear therein any vain discourse, but only: Peace, and they shall have their sustenance therein morning and evening, this is because if Ibnishaq did what Allah told him to do, he must be a Taqqi, i.e. pious and the promise of Allah is: This is the garden which We cause those of Our servants to inherit who are pious.

What else I can tell Ibnishaq to convince him  to save his own arse from a possible doom?,  I really found those who indulge themselves in sexual perversity doing for almost nothing, a 5 to 30 minutes sexual fantasy, even if that sexual fantasy is with your own wife, like fuking her in the anus, is it worth it to take the chance while you still can legally satisfy your sexual desires  by fukin your wife in her vagina?, believe me pal, IT WILL NEVER BE WORTH IT, you have to learn how to control your Shahawat, THIS IS TOUGH FOR ALL BTW, this is because Allah inserted in us the love of all types of these Shahawat to serve the test, see how tough the test is, well, it is not for the dumb, this tough test is only passable with those who have brains and chose to believe then submit to Allah laws, part of submitting to His laws is to fight the Shahawat:, let me show you this verse:

And Allah desires that He should turn to you (mercifully), and those who follow (their) lusts desire that you should deviate (with) a great deviation.

[The Quran ; 4:27]

وَاللّهُ يُرِيدُ أَن يَتُوبَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَيُرِيدُ الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الشَّهَوَاتِ أَن تَمِيلُواْ مَيْلاً عَظِيمًا (27)

-> See how polite the advice from Allah is  put to the believers: And Allah desires that He should turn to you (mercifully), and those who follow (their) lusts desire that you should deviate (with) a great deviation., see how to deviate from following Al Shahawat is described as great deviation, i.e it is tough for everyone not to follow Al Shahawat, BUT IT IS A MUST DO IF YOU WANT TO BE A MUSLIM AND EARN THE PROMISE OF ALLAH in 19:63, This is the garden which We cause those of Our servants to inherit who are pious.

There will be no further comments from me regarding this subject with you forever, the message is conveyed in the most suitable  manner as far as I believe

Salam
BMZ

Re: The qu'ran and homosexuality

ibnishaq wrote:
Hello,

21. And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.


The term "Fa'aazoo huma" does not mean hurt them. It means "punish them".

Quote:
78. And his people came to him, rushing at him, for before that they used to work evil. He 'Said, 'O my people! here are my daughters, they are purer for you; then, fear God, and do not disgrace me through my guests;- is there not among you one right-thinking man?'


"Here are my daughters" refers to the girls of the town, not his two daughters. Lot was not offering his two daughters for a gang rape by the entire menfolk of the town. lol.

In order to understand this, you must first read this beautiful unholy passage from the holy Bible, Genesis 19:


Quote:
Genesis 19: Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
     "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry [a] his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"

18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, [b] please! 19 Your [c] servant has found favor in your [d] eyes, and you [e] have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."

21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. [f] )

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

Lot and His Daughters

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab [g] ; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi [h] ; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.


Lot did his best to stop the sick homos but in the end got screwed up by his two daughters. You will not find this kind of junk in the Holy Qur'aan.  Laughing

BMZ
Tvebak

Re: The qu'ran and homosexuality

BMZ wrote:

Quote:
78. And his people came to him, rushing at him, for before that they used to work evil. He 'Said, 'O my people! here are my daughters, they are purer for you; then, fear God, and do not disgrace me through my guests;- is there not among you one right-thinking man?'


[i]"Here are my daughters" refers to the girls of the town, not his two daughters. Lot was not offering his two daughters for a gang rape by the entire menfolk of the town. lol.


And how do you know this? I reckon it's an assumption Well it's not of importance.

The point of the verses is that "god" does not like people who are homosexuals and that the "god" of the quran think them as transgressors who will be punished. Ahmed illustrated this fine. "god" definitly has something against homosexuals.

Cheers
ibnishaq

bmz- so punishment for homosexuality is death?

ahmed- what does islam say on celibacy?
BMZ

ibnishaq wrote:
bmz- so punishment for homosexuality is death?


No.

There is only one clear-cut death punishment commanded in Qur'aan and that is for pre-meditated murder.

I think if the town had a few Homos and the rest were believers and non-Homos, God would not have destroyed it. You may like to read the details of Abraham pleading and bargaining with God, in the Bible.

Regarding Lot's story, which I quoted from the Bible, the point was to let readers know that the incident has originally been reported in juicy details by the Bible. Qur'aan just re-told the simple fact
in neat and clean language. The act was carried out by the God of Abraham.  Very Happy For Christians, who claim that Jesus is God, that act was carried out by Jesus or the three in tandem.  Laughing

BMZ
BMZ

Re: The qu'ran and homosexuality

Tvebak wrote:
BMZ wrote:

Quote:
78. And his people came to him, rushing at him, for before that they used to work evil. He 'Said, 'O my people! here are my daughters, they are purer for you; then, fear God, and do not disgrace me through my guests;- is there not among you one right-thinking man?'


"Here are my daughters" refers to the girls of the town, not his two daughters. Lot was not offering his two daughters for a gang rape by the entire menfolk of the town. lol.


And how do you know this? I reckon it's an assumption Well it's not of importance.

The point of the verses is that "god" does not like people who are homosexuals and that the "god" of the quran think them as transgressors who will be punished. Ahmed illustrated this fine. "god" definitly has something against homosexuals.

Cheers



[i]It is my view. All you have to do is to use some common sense.

If you think Lot offered his two daughters to the entire mob, it is fine with me. But it just makes Lot of the Bible look like an idiot.

Cheers
BMZ
AhmedBahgat

ibnishaq wrote:
ahmed- what does islam say on celibacy?


That they can't have sex untill Allah enables them to marry:

And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah gives them independence  out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[The Quran ; 24:33]
وَلْيَسْتَعْفِفِ الَّذِينَ لَا يَجِدُونَ نِكَاحًا حَتَّى يُغْنِيَهُمْ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَالَّذِينَ يَبْتَغُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِمَّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَكَاتِبُوهُمْ إِنْ عَلِمْتُمْ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا وَآتُوهُم مِّن مَّالِ اللَّهِ الَّذِي آتَاكُمْ وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاء إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَمَن يُكْرِههُّنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (33)
-> See: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah gives them independence  out of His grace.

Salam
ibnishaq

yes so ahmed can one stay celibate all their life or are they required to marry?

also what is the punishment for homosexuality in your view?
All_Brains

ibnishaq wrote:
yes so ahmed can one stay celibate all their life or are they required to marry?

also what is the punishment for homosexuality in your view?


I look forward to seeing Ahmed's response on Q2.
AhmedBahgat

ibnishaq wrote:
yes so ahmed can one stay celibate all their life or are they required to marry?


Well, if they can't afford marriage then they have to keep chaste for the for as long, now if they can afford marriage and they marruied whiule still sleeping with the same sex then they have to be classifed as peptrators, what they perpetrated is, Allah Laws

ibnishaq wrote:
also what is the punishment for homosexuality in your view?


Well, If I'm a law maker then I have to apply 4:11 & 4:12 over the gays the lesbians

for me, it can be considered Zina and I will look seriously in applying the punishment of Zina (100 lashes in public as well a group of belivers must witness their punishment)

now if for whatever reason they can't be lashed (medical reasons for example) then 1 year in solitary confinment will be a satisfactory punishment for their crime, the reason for solitary confinment is to prevent them from trying it with other inmates, the whole point is to make them repent so they will be saved if Allah exists

there should be no capital punsihment for the gays and lesbians as far as I see from the Quran.
ibnishaq

AhmedBahgat wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
yes so ahmed can one stay celibate all their life or are they required to marry?


Well, if they can't afford marriage then they have to keep chaste for the for as long, now if they can afford marriage and they marruied whiule still sleeping with the same sex then they have to be classifed as peptrators, what they perpetrated is, Allah Laws

ibnishaq wrote:
also what is the punishment for homosexuality in your view?


Well, If I'm a law maker then I have to apply 4:11 & 4:12 over the gays the lesbians

for me, it can be considered Zina and I will look seriously in applying the punishment of Zina (100 lashes in public as well a group of belivers must witness their punishment)

now if for whatever reason they can't be lashed (medical reasons for example) then 1 year in solitary confinment will be a satisfactory punishment for their crime, the reason for solitary confinment is to prevent them from trying it with other inmates, the whole point is to make them repent so they will be saved if Allah exists

there should be no capital punsihment for the gays and lesbians as far as I see from the Quran.

agreed i see it nowhere in qu'ran!!

so why do vast majority of scholars on figqh believe the death penalty should be imposed?

also what happens in hereafter if one in this life has gay sex knowing that it is a sin but still continues for the rest of his life and still dates his boyfriend? he be in hell eternally or temporarily or what?
HomoErectus

AhmedBahgat wrote:


...the whole point is to make them repent so they will be saved if Allah exists



Dear Mr.Ahmed

Since you want people to be polite to you, I'll say this very nicely, trying  to be polite, dunno if I succeed... Very Happy

This above sentence is the MOST significant sentence you wrote here !

It shows the WHOLE DILEMMA of your thinking !

You are ALSO just indoctrinated, and in the course of this "they" have implanted the seed of FEAR into your system !

You act upon islamic laws JUST IN CASE - like you said "IF Allah exists" - as a prevention of possible punishment by the god who is supposed to have "made" you...

This is truely the poorest reasoning ever, for "believing" in some religion !

Imagine you find out - later on, when you're dead - that there is no "allah", no god, not nothing, only you [your still functioning "mind") and the guilt you have accumulated towards YOURSELF, by following nonsensical rules !

So, my question here follows this logic...

What are you doing to prevent waking up, having followed a hoax ?

I said this in another thead on FFI, and you chose to rather not reply...

I think you are on the way to apostacize !
HomoErectus

Dear Ishaq

You see it all confirmed here in this thread !

As I told you in this other thread - despite that islamic societies are full of homosexuality, at least at some age - ideologically, there is no "life" for homosexuals in islam...
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


...the whole point is to make them repent so they will be saved if Allah exists



Dear Mr.Ahmed

Since you want people to be polite to you, I'll say this very nicely, trying  to be polite, dunno if I succeed... Very Happy

This above sentence is the MOST significant sentence you wrote here !

It shows the WHOLE DILEMMA of your thinking !

You are ALSO just indoctrinated, and in the course of this "they" have implanted the seed of FEAR into your system !

You act upon islamic laws JUST IN CASE - like you said "IF Allah exists" - as a prevention of possible punishment by the god who is supposed to have "made" you...

This is truely the poorest reasoning ever, for "believing" in some religion !

Imagine you find out - later on, when you're dead - that there is no "allah", no god, not nothing, only you [your still functioning "mind") and the guilt you have accumulated towards YOURSELF, by following nonsensical rules !

So, my question here follows this logic...

What are you doing to prevent waking up, having followed a hoax ?

I said this in another thead on FFI, and you chose to rather not reply...

I think you are on the way to apostacize !



Dear Sir

You are 100% confused because this is what I always say, JUST TO BE FAIR to those kafirs or doubters that I dialogue with

for me sir, Allah exists 100%

cheers
HomoErectus

I know, you are working hard, actually you are "laboring", to keep yourself convinced...

Let me enlarge that picture a bit.

Do you also believe in shariat ?
I mean, do you also propagate sharia for all the world ?

I mean, you should, after all, all the world must become/or is "dar-ul-islam", so accordingly, you MUST favor "gods law" too, for everybody... am I right ?

How about stonings in Australia ?

Are you considering civil laws as VOID ?

How about a sentence, under civil laws, against a muslim ?
unjust ?
AhmedBahgat

AhmedBahgat wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
yes so ahmed can one stay celibate all their life or are they required to marry?


Well, if they can't afford marriage then they have to keep chaste for the for as long, now if they can afford marriage and they marruied whiule still sleeping with the same sex then they have to be classifed as peptrators, what they perpetrated is, Allah Laws

ibnishaq wrote:
also what is the punishment for homosexuality in your view?


Well, If I'm a law maker then I have to apply 4:11 & 4:12 over the gays the lesbians

for me, it can be considered Zina and I will look seriously in applying the punishment of Zina (100 lashes in public as well a group of belivers must witness their punishment)

now if for whatever reason they can't be lashed (medical reasons for example) then 1 year in solitary confinment will be a satisfactory punishment for their crime, the reason for solitary confinment is to prevent them from trying it with other inmates, the whole point is to make them repent so they will be saved if Allah exists

there should be no capital punsihment for the gays and lesbians as far as I see from the Quran.


ibnishaq wrote:
agreed i see it nowhere in qu'ran!!

so why do vast majority of scholars on figqh believe the death penalty should be imposed?



I don't know, but I guess they are using other sources for such law, i.e. they are Mushrikoon

ibnishaq wrote:
also what happens in hereafter if one in this life has gay sex knowing that it is a sin but still continues for the rest of his life and still dates his boyfriend? he be in hell eternally or temporarily or what?


I don't know how long they will stay there, what I can say that it is condition in the Quran to not to do the sin again if you want Allah to forgive you, this is the only way you prove your repentence, i.e. you don't do it EVER again, and in such case I can assure you that accoridng to the Quran, you previous sins regarrding homsexuality may be all forgiven
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
I know, you are working hard, actually you are "laboring", to keep yourself convinced...


If anyone is deluded in here, it has to be you for sure

HomoErectus wrote:
Let me enlarge that picture a bit.


do you prefer things, large?


HomoErectus wrote:
Do you also believe in shariat ?
I mean, do you also propagate sharia for all the world ?


well, Sharia is what is in the Quran, this is because the Quran is the Sharia of Allah, i.e. I donlt need to propgate the Quran, it is already propagated, what I do is to fix a flaw in understanding the Quran by others every now and then

HomoErectus wrote:
I mean, you should, after all, all the world must become/or is "dar-ul-islam", so accordingly, you MUST favor "gods law" too, for everybody... am I right ?


No. You are 100% wrong, there is no such thing that is called Dar Al Islam, I only heard such crap on FFI

HomoErectus wrote:
How about stonings in Australia ?


again, where is that stonning in the Quran, sir?

HomoErectus wrote:
Are you considering civil laws as VOID ?


The Quran laws are far more civil than all current laws combined as well all laws in all other scriptures combined

HomoErectus wrote:

How about a sentence, under civil laws, against a muslim ?
unjust ?


of course, any law that descriminate against any faith, color, or race must be unjust

now Islam does not descriminate against the kafirs by forcing them to pay the Jeziah in Muslim lands, this because they are not required to pay the Zakat which is enforced over the Muslims, that is if you find any land that applies the Quran law alone, however there is none and I have never seen the laws of Jeziah and Zakat are enforced in any Muslim country
HomoErectus

AhmedBahgat wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
I know, you are working hard, actually you are "laboring", to keep yourself convinced...


If anyone is deluded in here, it has to be you for sure

HomoErectus wrote:
Let me enlarge that picture a bit.


do you prefer things, large?



See...
I try to be nice to you, and you... come back with your usual tactics, thus proving you don't deserve to be "respected", you break your own rules constantly and permanently...

Besides, you are definitely not making any "points" by that, do you realize ?

You may be looking for a cheap "haha" from your muslim brothers, you imagine them laughing, thats your thrill, and... step beyond the line you had drawn yourself - cheap shots !


HomoErectus wrote:
Do you also believe in shariat ?
I mean, do you also propagate sharia for all the world ?

Quote:

well, Sharia is what is in the Quran, this is because the Quran is the Sharia of Allah, i.e. I donlt need to propgate the Quran, it is already propagated, what I do is to fix a flaw in understanding the Quran by others every now and then



So, you are saying "naturally" sharia ought to get implemented...
Its the laws of the quran, and gods laws must be obeyed, whether one likes it or not, wherever they [people] are...


HomoErectus wrote:
I mean, you should, after all, all the world must become/or is "dar-ul-islam", so accordingly, you MUST favor "gods law" too, for everybody... am I right ?

Quote:

No. You are 100% wrong, there is no such thing that is called Dar Al Islam, I only heard such crap on FFI



If you say so, I can't dis-prove what you say...

Fact is, the phrase is getting used, by Islamists !


HomoErectus wrote:
How about stonings in Australia ?

Quote:

again, where is that stonning in the Quran, sir?



Aaaah, yeah...
Its "only" in ahadiths, and nobody cares about ahadiths !

So, I gather you oppose stonings ?

Would you publically oppose the stonings taking place in quite some islamic countries... in numbers... ?
And what would you tell them, they are committing... shirk, by following ahadith ?

What about other "islamic", or better "quranic laws" ?

Do you, SIR, have a daughter, if I may ask, without wishing to reveal private secrets... that is... [of course you can smell where I'm coming from here...]



HomoErectus wrote:
Are you considering civil laws as VOID ?

Quote:

The Quran laws are far more civil than all current laws combined as well all laws in all other scriptures combined



This is by far the biggest LIE on mother earth !

Quranic "laws", I refuse to call them laws, they are set-ups, for all kinds of crimes, are the absolutely worst laws ever to be followed on this planet at all times...

But, of course... this is just my humble and personal view !


HomoErectus wrote:

How about a sentence, under civil laws, against a muslim ?
unjust ?

Quote:

of course, any law that descriminate against any faith, color, or race must be unjust



I did not say a "discriminating sentence", just a sentence for a committed crime, but based on breaking a civil law, maybe breaking no law according to the quran...


Quote:

now Islam does not descriminate against the kafirs



WHATTTT ?
You definitely are a bit... off of reality !
You know very well that islam practically discriminates against ALL others, not christians only...

ever been to S.Arabia ?


Quote:

by forcing them to pay the Jeziah in Muslim lands, this because they are not required to pay the Zakat which is enforced over the Muslims, that is if you find any land that applies the Quran law alone, however there is none and I have never seen the laws of Jeziah and Zakat are enforced in any Muslim country



The "system" is completely flawed, at all odds and ends...
AhmedBahgat

why don't you show me where the Quran orders the believers to discriminate against the peaceful kafirs

also, you are not allowed to ask me any question regarding any family member of mine

cheers
HomoErectus

AhmedBahgat wrote:
why don't you show me where the Quran orders the believers to discriminate against the peaceful kafirs

also, you are not allowed to ask me any question regarding any family member of mine

cheers


Well, "kill them wherever you find them" is not a statement of loving care...

My question for you having a daughter, is a rhethorical question only, as I'm not interested to include family members into the discussion, or do them any harm, its for demonstration puposes only !

So, you can either answer honestly, or rhethorically only, it wont make a difference to my follow-up question...
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
why don't you show me where the Quran orders the believers to discriminate against the peaceful kafirs

also, you are not allowed to ask me any question regarding any family member of mine

cheers


Well, "kill them wherever you find them" is not a statement of loving care...

My question for you having a daughter, is a rhethorical question only, as I'm not interested to include family members into the discussion, or do them any harm, its for demonstration puposes only !

So, you can either answer honestly, or rhethorically only, it wont make a difference to my follow-up question...



that's right, we should not show love to the fukin enemy, unless a freak like ya loves Osama

your crap above was refuted by Muslim children years ago pal


now let's assume that I have a daughter, what is your next stupid question?
HomoErectus

AhmedBahgat wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
why don't you show me where the Quran orders the believers to discriminate against the peaceful kafirs

also, you are not allowed to ask me any question regarding any family member of mine

cheers


Well, "kill them wherever you find them" is not a statement of loving care...

My question for you having a daughter, is a rhethorical question only, as I'm not interested to include family members into the discussion, or do them any harm, its for demonstration puposes only !

So, you can either answer honestly, or rhethorically only, it wont make a difference to my follow-up question...



that's right, we should not show love to the fukin enemy, unless a freak like ya loves Osama

your crap above was refuted by Muslim children years ago pal


now let's assume that I have a daughter, what is your next stupid question?




no more question...
it makes no sense to talk to you.

you behave like a 5 year old brat, and I have no desire to get childish responses !

you have gotten me to TRY to talk to you NICELY, only to break your own rules, so accordingly I don't feel any obligation to it too !

[/nice mode]

I'll now get back to trashing you, like you deserve it, "mr. ben't over"...
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
why don't you show me where the Quran orders the believers to discriminate against the peaceful kafirs

also, you are not allowed to ask me any question regarding any family member of mine

cheers


Well, "kill them wherever you find them" is not a statement of loving care...

My question for you having a daughter, is a rhethorical question only, as I'm not interested to include family members into the discussion, or do them any harm, its for demonstration puposes only !

So, you can either answer honestly, or rhethorically only, it wont make a difference to my follow-up question...



that's right, we should not show love to the fukin enemy, unless a freak like ya loves Osama

your crap above was refuted by Muslim children years ago pal


now let's assume that I have a daughter, what is your next stupid question?




no more question...
it makes no sense to talk to you.

you behave like a 5 year old brat, and I have no desire to get childish responses !

you have gotten me to TRY to talk to you NICELY, only to break your own rules, so accordingly I don't feel any obligation to it too !

[/nice mode]

I'll now get back to trashing you, like you deserve it, "mr. ben't over"...



That is exqctly what I want, homo no erectus

see punk, I smell the freaks even if they try to be nice, the freakish nature is in their blood and I have to treat them the way they deserve

you have been dismissed in the rubbish bin

oh yeh, would you like me to add ya to the list of Shameless?
HomoErectus

AhmedBahgat wrote:


That is exqctly what I want, homo no erectus

see punk, I smell the freaks even if they try to be nice, the freakish nature is in their blood and I have to treat them the way they deserve

you have been dismissed in the rubbish bin

oh yeh, would you like me to add ya to the list of Shameless?



Oh, don't worry, you have been dismissed too, the rubbish-bin is the place you live anyway !

The freak is doubtlessly you, since its you believing in a hoax and defending it by all means... get a life, jerk !

I couldn't care less about your infantile and stupids lists, and walls, little movies you make, whatever... you only confirm what I said to you on FFI !

Now go and play.....
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:


That is exqctly what I want, homo no erectus

see punk, I smell the freaks even if they try to be nice, the freakish nature is in their blood and I have to treat them the way they deserve

you have been dismissed in the rubbish bin

oh yeh, would you like me to add ya to the list of Shameless?



Oh, don't worry, you have been dismissed too, the rubbish-bin is the place you live anyway !

The freak is doubtlessly you, since its you believing in a hoax and defending it by all means... get a life, jerk !

I couldn't care less about your infantile and stupids lists, and walls, little movies you make, whatever... you only confirm what I said to you on FFI !

Now go and play.....


hmmm, can you plug the itchometer and let me know how far your itch is going
HomoErectus

AhmedBahgat wrote:



hmmm, can you plug the itchometer and let me know how far your itch is going



Mmmmpfff...
couldn't you please at least TRY to come out of your mental pampers...

or maybe at least TRY to be funny ?
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:



hmmm, can you plug the itchometer and let me know how far your itch is going



Mmmmpfff...
couldn't you please at least TRY to come out of your mental pampers...

or maybe at least TRY to be funny ?


I was not trying to be funny, punk, I'm damn serious

insert the plug now in you arse and let me diagnose your itch
HomoErectus

And right now you have actually become too stupid to reply to...
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
And right now you have actually become too stupid to reply to...



if anyone is stupid, it has to be you prick, respect your role as a Mod and stop harassing other members

now piss off
HomoErectus

Aaah, all just a circus of vanity with you...

I don't write here as a "moderator" !

Even looking at you as a "moderator", I wouldn't "take action" against you at this point, you are an asset to this forum, you know...

You are better than any rant against islam !

Besides, one has to forgive you, you are just a brainwashed lil muslim !
Cursed by allah...

But, take this advice, don't always get so revved up, you might get yourself a heartattack...

Look what you said in this other thread...

Quote:

...at the end of the day i have to be myself and one of my aspects that i have to do that, to take the intense pressure on my emotions that i get smaked with evry fukin day in here


Stay healthy, don't always take yourself so seriously all the time, its not worth it !
HomoErectus

'scuse me, all ye others, I know its so useless and brainless to get into such a dialogue...
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
Aaah, all just a circus of vanity with you...

I don't write here as a "moderator" !

Even looking at you as a "moderator", I wouldn't "take action" against you at this point, you are an asset to this forum, you know...

You are better than any rant against islam !

Besides, one has to forgive you, you are just a brainwashed lil muslim !
Cursed by allah...

But, take this advice, don't always get so revved up, you might get yourself a heartattack...

Look what you said in this other thread...

Quote:

...at the end of the day i have to be myself and one of my aspects that i have to do that, to take the intense pressure on my emotions that i get smaked with evry fukin day in here


Stay healthy, don't always take yourself so seriously all the time, its not worth it !



I told ya to piss off you filthy punk
HomoErectus

AhmedBahgat wrote:


I told ya to piss off you filthy punk



Dear Ahmed

I hope that three days break in our lil "conversation" were enough for you recover from this "close to" heart attack...

and I hope you did not resort to beating up any womenfolk around you !

Since you are such a picky muslim, only picking up on texts as well as traditions that YOU have "authorized"...

I do have another question, but in this very moment I came to a more adequate question after what I said in my last sentence...

I mean, we all know that you reject hadith...

at least most hadiths, you are also picky in that, since accept some of the hadiths...

There is also nothing "islamic" in following the rituals that are being practiced, for instance when going on Hajj, like [if possible] kissing this black stone, or throwing stones at some pillar, as well as deliberatley slaying countless animals, for rather "nothing"... am I right ?  

you also said something like all other muslims, who believe in hadiths, are committing "shirk" !

In other words, since about 80% of all muslims do believe in hadiths, and traditions, you consider 80% of muslims to commit shirk, at the end of the day - not be "muslims" anymore, but pagans !

Let alone all the rest of the sects of islam, in distance to sunni and shia...

Guess what they would call you ?

Thats also why I repeatedly said - I think you are on the way to apostacy !

You are NOT a "regular muslim", thats for sure, your cherry-picking the right rules for your own personal needs is totally understandable for me - but what would your felllow mainstream muslims say to you... ?

and if you rightfully consider hadith as "hear-say" [I absolutely agree with you], why not consider the quran as hear-say too ?

you know that the lastest edition of the quran was compiled and finalized under uthman, but yet still other versions were being circulated, as these findings [syro-aramaeic reading of the quran - FFI thread] can confirm...

plus, all indicators of the quran being altered, edited and rewritten are plain visible !

And I guess, YOU have - meanwhile and by now - invented your own version of islam !
AhmedBahgat

AhmedBahgat wrote:


I told ya to piss off you filthy punk



HomoErectus wrote:
Dear Ahmed


Hello

HomoErectus wrote:
I hope that three days break in our lil "conversation" were enough for you recover from this "close to" heart attack...


Stop delusing yourself pal

HomoErectus wrote:
and I hope you did not resort to beating up any womenfolk around you !


your humour sucks

HomoErectus wrote:
Since you are such a picky muslim, only picking up on texts as well as traditions that YOU have "authorized"...


Back to deluding yourself, well I authorize nothing, I only let the Qran words authorze itself

HomoErectus wrote:
I do have another question, but in this very moment I came to a more adequate question after what I said in my last sentence...


Let's see


HomoErectus wrote:
I mean, we all know that you reject hadith...


That's not a question, nor true

HomoErectus wrote:
at least most hadiths,


That is true, no question yet

HomoErectus wrote:
you are also picky in that, since accept some of the hadiths...


Yawn

HomoErectus wrote:
There is also nothing "islamic" in following the rituals that are being practiced, for instance when going on Hajj, like [if possible] kissing this black stone, or throwing stones at some pillar,



The above is not part of the Hajj as stated in the Quran.

HomoErectus wrote:
as well as deliberatley slaying countless animals, for rather "nothing"... am I right ?  


That is part of the Hajj as stated in the Quran and it is not for nothing, but for the poor to eat from it

I guess you have finished you question

you also said something like all other muslims, who believe in hadiths, are committing "shirk" !

HomoErectus wrote:
In other words, since about 80% of all muslims do believe in hadiths, and traditions, you consider 80% of muslims to commit shirk,


It depends in how they believe in the hadith

if they consider them holy then they shirked

if they consider them as they truely are, the words of men and nothing but a history record that may be wrong, then they don't shirk

HomoErectus wrote:
at the end of the day - not be "muslims" anymore, but pagans !


again, if they believe in the word of man as being holy and divine then they shirked

HomoErectus wrote:
Let alone all the rest of the sects of islam, in distance to sunni and shia...


sunni and shia are not the standrd of the religion for the others to follow them, the sunni and shia cult are as confused as any other cult in Islam, the moment a muslim speicifies a cult in Islam that he/she follows, is the same moment that you should recoginse his/her confusion because there is no cults in islam and all those islamic cult followers are promised with doom

HomoErectus wrote:
Guess what they would call you ?


That is your second question, well they may call me kafir, but I don't give a rat ass really

HomoErectus wrote:
Thats also why I repeatedly said - I think you are on the way to apostacy !


Keep deluding yourself as they are deluding themselves

HomoErectus wrote:
You are NOT a "regular muslim",



Wrong, in fact I'm the regular Muslim according to the Quran, they are the forgein Muslims and again according to the Quran and their hadith

HomoErectus wrote:
thats for sure, your cherry-picking the right rules for your own personal needs is totally understandable for me -


Ovbiously you understand nothing, what I pick and choose is not accoridng to my own personal needs rather according to what the Quran says

HomoErectus wrote:
but what would your felllow mainstream muslims say to you... ?


Hmmm, didn't you ask the same question before?

well the question above is flawed, this is because they are not my fellow Muslims, I;m not confused as they are

let me now answer your question again, they may say to me that I'm kafir, and I will reply to them that I don't give a rat ass of what they think about me

HomoErectus wrote:
and if you rightfully consider hadith as "hear-say" [I absolutely agree with you], why not consider the quran as hear-say too ?


Who told ya that I don't comsider the Quran hearsay (logically speaking)?

look pal, I always said that the Quran is also hearsay (logically speaking)

However I chose to believe in the hearsay Quran as many others chose to believe in any other hearsay, at least I'm believeing in the hearsay that the Quran (which is delivered by a prophet) told me about not the hearsay the people told me about, this should be a huge difference on the JD if Allah exists.

HomoErectus wrote:
you know that the lastest edition of the quran was compiled and finalized under uthman,


Yes I know, however what a kafir will never underdstand that Allah was in charge of collecting it as He stated in the Quran, that does not mean that Allah will come down to earth and collect for us RATHER cause other people to do it, and Uthman was the one Allah caused him to do it.

HomoErectus wrote:
but yet still other versions were being circulated, as these findings [syro-aramaeic reading of the quran - FFI thread] can confirm...


syro-aramaeic crap has nothing to do with the Quran, this is because the Quran  is in Arabic not in syro-aramaeic, stop deluding yourself pal

HomoErectus wrote:
plus, all indicators of the quran being altered, edited and rewritten are plain visible !


that is if you bring the original by Uthman (full copy) and we compare it with the current one, however what you will try to get is some crappy cyber images showing some chicken shit of Arabic writings,  and that will never be admissible in my books, sorry

you need to bring the full version of the first Quran, that Uthman was caused to collect in a single book, when you bring it, we may compare it with what we have and see if you are right

can you do that pal?

HomoErectus wrote:
And I guess, YOU have - meanwhile and by now - invented your own version of islam !


you may delude yourself and allege so, however I didn't invent anything nor I'm modernizing Islam neither that I'm a reformist,

what I'm doing is restore Islam to its unchanged base (the Quran), i.e. you can call me an Originalist

Salam
HomoErectus

I'm sorry, I truely forgot the question I was actually going for in the beginning, when I wrote my above post... and other questions popped up in between...

I will return to your above reply, no doubt, since you offer quite some... inconsistencies, but lemme get back onto these later... I appreciate your honesty though... you don't shy away from offering your soft-white underbelly either, my respect for that !

so, not to forget again...

What do you think of certain imperative "fatwas"... given out by authoritative persons and from positions, like al-azhar university, kairo... ?

are they ALL relevant, these fatwas... ?

Of course you can expect me to get a bit more specific, after your next reply, I will ask about specific fatwas... maybe...

is - f.i. - any death-fatwa binding ?

or would you rather also pick the authority/person/position issuing such a fatwa as being "ritghtful" and rightfully airing such an edict !?
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
I'm sorry, I truely forgot the question I was actually going for in the beginning, when I wrote my above post... and other questions popped up in between...

I will return to your above reply, no doubt, since you offer quite some... inconsistencies, but lemme get back onto these later... I appreciate your honesty though... you don't shy away from offering your soft-white underbelly either, my respect for that !

so, not to forget again...

What do you think of certain imperative "fatwas"... given out by authoritative persons and from positions, like al-azhar university, kairo... ?

are they ALL relevant, these fatwas... ?

Of course you can expect me to get a bit more specific, after your next reply, I will ask about specific fatwas... maybe...

is - f.i. - any death-fatwa binding ?

or would you rather also pick the authority/person/position issuing such a fatwa as being "ritghtful" and rightfully airing such an edict !?


Hmmmm

I replied to this on FFI before, again, there is only one Mufti, who is Allah, let me prove it to you by copying my comment to this thread:

Hello All

On FFI web site there is an Arab pervert named ex-jinni, I normally don’t reply to threads by such  pervert, however I still skim through it though when I have a chance, now I could not pass on the following comment by a Muslim on one of that Arab pervert threads without replying, let’s have a look:

Firstly here is the comment by the Arab pervert ex-jinni:

ex-jinni wrote:
This is to lighten things up and for some other reasons .

The fatwa of Mufkhaza [rubbing the penis between the thighs] of children

Fatwa number [31409] dated 7/5/1421 Hijri

All praises be to Allah alone and prayers and peace be upon the one whom no prophet can come after him----

Moreover:

The Permanent Committee for Academic Research and Rendering Fatwas (religious edicts) has reviewed the religious opinion request sent to his beatitude, the General Mufti (Muslim scholar who interprets the shari’a), by the opinion seeker, Abu Abdullah Muhammad Al-Shammeri. This was referred to the committee by the general trusteeship of the committee of senior clerics as number 1809 and dated 3/5/1421 Hijri. The text of the religious opinion seeker’s question:

“The practice of performing Mufkhaza on small boys has recently become widespread, and especially during wedding celebrations. What is the [religious] validity of that knowing that the messenger of Allah, may Allah salute and pray on him, had preformed Mufkhaza on our lady Ayesha, may she find favor with Allah.”

After study by the committee for rendering fataws, it answered with the following:

Resorting to these illegitimate practices, which came to our lands through pornographic films sent by the infidels and the enemies of Islam, is not consistent with centuries-long Islamic guidance. However, concerning the messenger of Allah, may Allah salute and pray on him, having had preformed Mufkhaza on his fiancée Ayesha: she was six-years-old and he could not have intercourse with her due to her young age therefore, he, may Allah salute and pray on him, would place his penis between her thighs and rub it gently. Also, the messenger of Allah possessed a penis unlike that of the believers.

Based on that, it is not permissible to carry on Mufkhaza during weddings, in homes, and in schools due to its excessive danger… May Allah curse the infidels who brought these practices to our lands.

The Permanent Committee for Academic Research and Rendering Fatwas,

Member: Bakr bin Abdu Allah Abu Zayed
Member: Salih bin Fawzan Al-Fawzan
Chairman: Abdul Aziz bin Abdu Allah bin Muhammad Al Al-Sheikh

looooooooooooooooool. so funny huh ?


Now, 7 pages later I read this comment by a Muslim named XXX:

Quote:
If it is a Fatwa giving a legal ruling, or making claims the Prophet PBUH, did something, then it MUST be supported by the Qu'ran or Hadith.


Well, the above statement is a self conviction of their SHIRK, see what it was said above: then it MUST be supported by the Qu'ran or Hadith

You will never find something in the Quran that supports the above obvious SHIRK, in fact the Quran clearly says that ANY FATWA MUST COME FROM ALLAH, i.e. any human IGTIHAD (Trying to find answers to religious questions) MUST BE SUPPORTED ONLY BY THE QURAN

THEIR MAN MADE HADITH HAS ABOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH A NY FATWA

Let me prove it to you:

In the following verse, the people during Mohammed time wanted some religious decisions from the prophet regarding some matters:

And they ask you for a decision about women. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.

[The Quran ; 4:127]

وَيَسْتَفْتُونَكَ فِي النِّسَاء قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِيهِنَّ وَمَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الْكِتَابِ فِي يَتَامَى النِّسَاء الَّلاتِي لاَ تُؤْتُونَهُنَّ مَا كُتِبَ لَهُنَّ وَتَرْغَبُونَ أَن تَنكِحُوهُنَّ وَالْمُسْتَضْعَفِينَ مِنَ الْوِلْدَانِ وَأَن تَقُومُواْ لِلْيَتَامَى بِالْقِسْطِ وَمَا تَفْعَلُواْ مِنْ خَيْرٍ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِهِ عَلِيمًا (127)

-> SEE HOW CLEAR IT IS: وَيَسْتَفْتُونَكَ فِي النِّسَاء , Wa Yastaftunaka Fi Al Nisaa, i.e. And they ASK YOU FOR A DECISION about women, now here comes the answer from the ONLY MUFTI who is Allah, see what Allah says: قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِيهِنَّ , Qul Allah YUFTIKUM Fihunna, i.e. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning them , i.e. Allah is the ONLY Mufti according to His Quran not to the man made hearsay hadith as many Mushrikoon believe or I should say (MADE TO BELIEVE SO OVER THE YEARS), Allah never told Mohammed to make up a Fatwa for them, and even if it happened, Mohammed must have based it ONLY on what Allah told him many times  in the Quran (Qul….., Qul….., Qul….., Qul….., Qul….., Qul….., Qul….. hundreds of times), can you see how clear in here that the word Qul was also used before the Fatwa, I.e. the prophet was ordered to SAY the Fatwa, however in here an important piece of information was provided before the Fatwa itself and that piece of information was only an order to say it too along with the Fatwa, which is again:   قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِيهِنَّ , Qul Allah YUFTIKUM Fihunna, i.e. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning them , then comes the direct Fatwa from Allah : and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity

An identical example is the last verse in the same sura:

They ask you for a decision . Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring; if a man dies (and) he has no son and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no son; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brethren, men and women, then the male shall have the like of the portion of two females; Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things.

[The Quran ; 4:176]

يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (176)

-> SEE HOW CLEAR IT IS AGAIN: يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ , Yastaftunaka, i.e. they ASK YOU FOR A DECISION , now here comes the answer from the ONLY MUFTI who is Allah, see what Allah says: قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ , Qul Allah YUFTIKUM Fi Al Kalalah, i.e. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the kalalah , i.e. Allah is the ONLY Mufti according to His Quran not to the man made hearsay hadith as many Mushrikoon believe and again I have to keep repeating it : (MADE TO BELIEVE SO OVER THE YEARS)
----------------------------------


Now, I really don't believe that a human Mufti should exist, however a knowledgable man to elaborate on what Allah said is what I always consider to be the case

humans just can't make religious laws on the behalf of Allah, it makes no sense

let me also clear one issue, knowing how to pray is not a religious law, the law is TO PRAY, knowing how to do it is nothing but teachings that I can take from other humans who elaborated on what Allah ordered (TO PRAY)

see
BMZ

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Now, I really don't believe that a human Mufti should exist, however a knowledgable man to elaborate on what Allah said is what I always consider to be the case

humans just can't make religious laws on the behalf of Allah, it makes no sense

let me also clear one issue, knowing how to pray is not a religious law, the law is TO PRAY, knowing how to do it is nothing but teachings that I can take from other humans who elaborated on what Allah ordered (TO PRAY)

see


Very good point, bro. Don't care about FFI goons.

Salaams
BMZ
HomoErectus

Dear Ahmed

So, how would you then get "classified" within "Islam" ?

I gather that you consider most of the muslims as actually being pagans, following a completely falsified version of this belief.

Now, again, I can understand your logic - and I've read it myself - that mohammad ordered his folks to follow the quran only... and the "sunna"...

But then isn't it all about hadiths, when you follow "sunna" ?

Where do you get the details of how to live "islamic", if not from the narratives, the tales and fables ?

You deliberately pick a few hadiths, declare them "valid", and dump all the rest... rightfully so, how can you believe stories that have been written/invented [like muhadiths do !] hundreds of years later, after muhammads death...

and of course this collection of TALES makes islam very vulnerable, any person with sane mind will come to shake his head in disbelief of what he's just reading in some of these "hadiths"...

Okay, so you are "Quran-Only-Muslim", and I know that this "class" of muslims exists...

How many are you ?
Maybe 2 or 3 percent of all muslims ?

Sunnites, Shiites, Alevis, Ahmadiya, Sufi, etc. - all are committing "shirk"
all of them actually apostates, and sort of pagans - meaning you think that 97 % of muslims are actually no more muslims !

Okay, "Quran Only" - don't we also find stuff that can only be classified as being "absurd" in the quran too, not in hadith only... ?

Without getting into the well-known details...

Don't you think - considering that you also accept that the Quran is "hear-say" - that after looking at it in such a way, it would be time to maybe question the whole thing - "Islam" - scrutinize it bit by bit, word by word, meaning by understanding and relation to the realities around you, the scientific developments and knowledge of today ?

In short - how can you still be a muslim ?
AhmedBahgat

HomoErectus wrote:
Dear Ahmed


Hello


HomoErectus wrote:
So, how would you then get "classified" within "Islam" ?


I really careless to be classfied by the people regarding Islam, what I care about is to be classified by Allah regarding His religion, now I can't know what exactly He is classifying me under, I only hope to be classified as a true Muslim to Him

HomoErectus wrote:
I gather that you consider most of the muslims as actually being pagans, following a completely falsified version of this belief.


The Quran confirms the above statemenet

HomoErectus wrote:
Now, again, I can understand your logic - and I've read it myself - that mohammad ordered his folks to follow the quran only... and the "sunna"...


Where exactly the prophet said so?

if you will bring a hadith that he said so, then I will bring another version of the same hadith from the same hadith books that the prophet said that he leaves with us the Quran ONLY.

now which version is right, you reckon?

I tell ya, we will never know

HomoErectus wrote:
But then isn't it all about hadiths, when you follow "sunna" ?


The practical sunnah which is only inherited as a word of mouth, I have never seen a hadith that states the salat in details.

HomoErectus wrote:
Where do you get the details of how to live "islamic", if not from the narratives, the tales and fables ?


From the Quran only

HomoErectus wrote:
You deliberately pick a few hadiths, declare them "valid",


I have never ever declared a hadith to be valid, simply I can't

HomoErectus wrote:
and dump all the rest... rightfully so, how can you believe stories that have been written/invented [like muhadiths do !] hundreds of years later, after muhammads death...


I donlt believe any hearsay but the Quram, however I'm happy to accept that a hearsay may be true  if it is confirmed by the Quran

HomoErectus wrote:
and of course this collection of TALES makes islam very vulnerable, any person with sane mind will come to shake his head in disbelief of what he's just reading in some of these "hadiths"...


Not all of it

HomoErectus wrote:
Okay, so you are "Quran-Only-Muslim",


Under my understanding of Quran only Muslim, yes I'm

HomoErectus wrote:
and I know that this "class" of muslims exists...


Actually, I donlt beling to such people whom you know, again, I;m only a Quran only Muslim under my definition of a Quran only, not under the definition that you know from such sect followers, in fact I'm totally against the sect called Quran only Muslims. those are the ones who also reject the practical sunnah, i.e. the sunnah that we inherited through the word of mouth, like how to pray for example

HomoErectus wrote:
How many are you ?
Maybe 2 or 3 percent of all muslims ?


Don't know, but we are very little and that ios also confirmed by the Quran

HomoErectus wrote:
Sunnites, Shiites, Alevis, Ahmadiya, Sufi, etc. - all are committing "shirk"


Of course anysect follower is a Mushrik because they listend to satan

HomoErectus wrote:
all of them actually apostates,


They can't be apostates, logically speaking

HomoErectus wrote:
and sort of pagans - meaning you think that 97 % of muslims are actually no more muslims !


again, I never put a figure to it, but I agree that most so called Muslims are confused and following a manipulated religion

HomoErectus wrote:
Okay, "Quran Only" - don't we also find stuff that can only be classified as being "absurd" in the quran too, not in hadith only... ?


Never found any

HomoErectus wrote:
Without getting into the well-known details...

Don't you think - considering that you also accept that the Quran is "hear-say" - that after looking at it in such a way, it would be time to maybe question the whole thing - "Islam" - scrutinize it bit by bit, word by word, meaning by understanding and relation to the realities around you, the scientific developments and knowledge of today ?


For me the Quran is eternal since itsday of revelation and suit any age

HomoErectus wrote:
In short - how can you still be a muslim ?


I will always be unless Allah wants otherwise
infidel

Quote:
The practical sunnah which is only inherited as a word of mouth, I have never seen a hadith that states the salat in details.


That was classic, Ahmed.  Surprised

You don't believe in HEARSAY which is in written form (hadiths) for atleast 1200 years but you believe in hearsay (word of mouth) which is not even in written form till date (1400 years).  Laughing

I can understand your problem that you can't defend hadiths but you have to belive in rituals (though inheruted through word of mouth only) in order to keep yourself praying. I wonder, if you reject till-date hearsay, how will you do salat etc?  Wink
AhmedBahgat

infidel wrote:
Quote:
The practical sunnah which is only inherited as a word of mouth, I have never seen a hadith that states the salat in details.


That was classic, Ahmed.  Surprised

You don't believe in HEARSAY which is in written form (hadiths) for atleast 1200 years but you believe in hearsay (word of mouth) which is not even in written form till date (1400 years).  Laughing

I can understand your problem that you can't defend hadiths but you have to belive in rituals (though inheruted through word of mouth only) in order to keep yourself praying. I wonder, if you reject till-date hearsay, how will you do salat etc?  Wink



why don't you go and piss on yourself you filthy troll?

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