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brainout

The Silence of God

There's a Jewish perspective on the "Silence of God" you can research on the internet.  There should be many other versions of it, as well.  That should tie into the grand topic.  Of course, other holy books have their own answers.  I only understand the Biblical ones.

Basically, the Biblical "Silence of God" is two-fold:  a) God will not coerce you to love Him, so stands off, having made the universe to reflect His Nature so you can of your own free will come to ask, "Does God Exist", and then "Which God are you?"  Many people have gone through those steps, often at an early age.  I remember thinking both questions, when I was 13 years old, staring up at the ceiling from my bed.  Everyone can tell you his own story.

But b), God will not speak to those who do not want Him, except in terms of judgement.  Idea is that the negativity is so great, judgement is the only 'reply' that will get through.  Hence you have sweeping policy chapters on this like Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28, and of course the famous book of Revelation, Chapters 6-19.

There's also c), as you'll see All-Brains remind me below, that "God is Silent" because He doesn't exist!

Again, I don't know what non-Bible books say on this topic.  But hey:  debate the stuff above, or whatever else comes to mind!  Bring in non-Bible ideas of the "Silence of God", too!  Let the debate, begin!
All_Brains

Re: The Silence of God

brainout wrote:
There's a Jewish perspective on the "Silence of God" you can research on the internet. There should be many other versions of it, as well. That should tie into the grand topic. Of course, other holy books have their own answers. I only understand the Biblical ones.

Basically, the Biblical "Silence of God" is two-fold: a) God will not coerce you to love Him, so stands off, having made the universe to reflect His Nature so you can of your own free will come to ask, "Does God Exist", and then "Which God are you?" Many people have gone through those steps, often at an early age. I remember thinking both questions, when I was 13 years old, staring up at the ceiling from my bed. Everyone can tell you his own story.

But b), God will not speak to those who do not want Him, except in terms of judgement. Idea is that the negativity is so great, judgement is the only 'reply' that will get through. Hence you have sweeping policy chapters on this like Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28, and of course the famous book of Revelation, Chapters 6-19.

Again, I don't know what non-Bible books say on this topic. But hey: debate the stuff above, or whatever else comes to mind! Bring in non-Bible ideas of the "Silence of God", too! Let the debate, begin!


Or a simple c) God is silent, because he does not exist!
brainout

LOL yes, All-Brains, I forgot that! I'll amend it in the topic, prontito!

Dicho y hecho! Finis! I added a poll, too. Hope you like it.
katlike

There is also a fourth option, God does exsist, but just not in the ways that have always been described. Some profound entity who sits on a throne with a set of laws and rituals he likes watching us live by.
What if god is more of an energy, more like a thought, a way of feeling that connects humans to each other and to this earth? Would that make god inexistant if the religious texts are wrong?
I have an easier time believing the Bibles are the "inspired" words of God, than I do that the koran is the actual words of god. It's easier to comprehend that god inspires humans, than to actually dictate.
I hope all that made sense, it's early here on a holiday morning and I am barely into my first cup of coffee. Laughing

katlike
brainout

Hi, katlike, welcome to the forum!

Hmmm. God as energy or thought binding us together would be animistic, not God as a person..? If not a person, would "God" be the right descriptive term?

Yeah, inspired is better than dictated. "Inspired" means you had the free will to reprocess the information but it still came out as "God" (however defined) intended it. "Dictated" means you're a pet doing pet tricks.

Happy Thanksgiving morning to you!
katlike

Quote:
If not a person, would "God" be the right descriptive term?


That is a question that is open for discussion, I am wondering why the religions get the go ahead to describe and define God for you and me.
Thanks for the warm welcome, I am looking forward to some interesting discussions.
brainout

Well, one needn't wait for the experts, lol. I don't know if I'll live that long Smile
All_Brains

katlike wrote:
There is also a fourth option, God does exsist, but just not in the ways that have always been described. Some profound entity who sits on a throne with a set of laws and rituals he likes watching us live by.
What if god is more of an energy, more like a thought, a way of feeling that connects humans to each other and to this earth? Would that make god inexistant if the religious texts are wrong?
I have an easier time believing the Bibles are the "inspired" words of God, than I do that the koran is the actual words of god. It's easier to comprehend that god inspires humans, than to actually dictate.
I hope all that made sense, it's early here on a holiday morning and I am barely into my first cup of coffee. Laughing

katlike


A definite possibility. May be we have been looking for God in the wrong places?
Ameen

Quote:
Or a simple c) God is silent, because he does not exist!


I disaagree and view this, a bit simplistic.

Silence is not a condition of non existence, and neither is evil.

I haven;t heard the guy who buily my computer speak, but he definitely does exist!

Stalin was evil, but he definitely did exist!

I hope you fathom the point.

Ameen:)
Tvebak

Ameen wrote:
Quote:
Or a simple c) God is silent, because he does not exist!


I disaagree and view this, a bit simplistic.

Silence is not a condition of non existence, and neither is evil.

I haven;t heard the guy who buily my computer speak, but he definitely does exist!

Stalin was evil, but he definitely did exist!

I hope you fathom the point.

Ameen:)


Hello Ameen

Well it's still a reasonable answer. Brainout put up a case and some answers to the case. All_Brain just added a very simple check-box to the chart.

Cheers and peace
All_Brains

Ameen wrote:
Quote:
Or a simple c) God is silent, because he does not exist!


I disaagree and view this, a bit simplistic.

Silence is not a condition of non existence, and neither is evil.

I haven;t heard the guy who buily my computer speak, but he definitely does exist!

Stalin was evil, but he definitely did exist!

I hope you fathom the point.

Ameen:)


Sure! I just added possibility no.4, which is the next logical assumption for a no-show being!
katlike

Quote:
All_Brains:
Quote:
Sure! I just added possibility no.4, which is the next logical assumption for a no-show being!


Actually it was me who added possibity no. 4, you stopped at 3, but whose keeping score right? Razz


Of course, the 4th option is yours for your credit.

I just happen to completely agree with it and passed it onto the thread initiator.
KrisP

Interesting thread but I would like to add another point-of-view. What if God is not silent and through evolution we have either lost the ability or have not yet gained the ability to hear him/her/it?
All_Brains

KrisP wrote:
Interesting thread but I would like to add another point-of-view. What if God is not silent and through evolution we have either lost the ability or have not yet gained the ability to hear him/her/it?


Hello KrisP

Congrats on your first post! You seem to be an observer, a sign for a great intellect!

Excellent point, reminds of the Celestine Prophecy where enlightenment can only be achieved through the evolution of the mind achieved by "the collective awareness".

The only dilemma with this theory that the very end pile will experience all the glory of uniting with the source, for they have achieved the required developed perception to sense his/her/its existence!

The primitive ones, although crucial to the development of the awareness will not end up having the same glory. It seems a little unfair to me!
HomoErectus

WE all know that famous sentence from Friedrich Nitzsche: "Gott ist tot!"
[God id dead, wheras god says: "Nietzsche is dead!"]

It might also be possible that "GOD" died... why not?

And in his death, all the energy became our universe... and why not?

PPooofff... here he went... and there the universe goes... expanding and expanding

Since my reply in this other thread fits into this thread so well, I will just copy and paste this into here:



Lets take a quick look at the entity of this alleged "God"....

I was always asking myself, why religions, [Islam is just one of those] insist on ONE god?
Who says so ?
A "prophet"...
or maybe many prophets.....
thousands of prophets have been roaming the earth!
Who knows whatever they said....

And thats all for a reasoning?

How did they know?

Oh, yeah, god told them!
As they are "prophets"!!!!
Its their Job to have talks with this singular "God" !
They get payed for that!

Couldn't it also be that there is a whole football-team, including trainers, docs, managers, and a group of cheer-leaders - all of 'em "gods" ?

And WHY not ?
By WHAT binding REASON ?

and as for - "always was and will always be" - the same question: says WHO ?

again - the "prophets"... the ones who's job it is and who are getting payed for predictions of all kinds, end-time scenarios, heavenly remedies [camel urine!], etc...

Maaaan... those "prophets" must have been a nuisance !!!!
On every streetcorner, not only one, nooo, they stood and proclaimed in bunches, heaps, bundles - each one trying to "sell" you his specif "messages" !!!!

Maybe this "God", and all the other "gods", were "NOT always there and will always be there" !!
Maybe its the other way around, they die on a daily basis, and re-create themselves every other day, or next week... or never?

Its a whole lotta questions, when you question everything !

And WHY not questioning everything ?

Ahhhh... because this specific singular entity has SAID so.... don't question, don't ask... just "believe" !!!

OR ELSE......... Hellfire !

Maybe "Hell" is a hell of an interesting place to be......
Meet Mohammad, et al...


back to the control-switch, keeping all the flock in the herd !


Personally, I think that this entity "god" is a highly unfair thing !
Very undemocratic and egoistic, egocentric and maybe also a bit of an egomaniac !
Its always about HIM !!!!
And nobody else is ever able to climb onto his throne and take over!!!!

THIS is DICTATORSHIP !!!
In MY eyes !!

Viva la Revolucion !!
Mutley

HomoErectus wrote:
WE all know that famous sentence from Friedrich Nitzsche: "Gott ist tot!"
[God id dead, wheras god says: "Nietzsche is dead!"]

It might also be possible that "GOD" died... why not?


Because that would mean that God had a beginning as well, if God could have an end. Therefore, that wouldn't be God because we would ask what God created God, and so on and so on and so on. Infinitite regression of cause. If there is a God, it is undeniable that God cannot be a created being and must be something outside of physicality itself. Metaphysical maybe? Call it whatever you want. Otherwise, if God is within physicality, then a cause or origin must be attributed to God, and therefore, the cause could be considered to be the real God. Nietzsche was a pompous moron sometimes.

HomoErectus wrote:

And in his death, all the energy became our universe... and why not?


Where did God get the energy from? Wouldn't that then be a cause of God and therefore God? If God exists, logic demands that God be uncaused. Strangely enough, the sack cloth ancients actually got that part right. They were even smarter than Nietzche, as obviously he couldn't see the flaw in his thinking.
Ariel

katlike wrote:
There is also a fourth option, God does exsist, but just not in the ways that have always been described. Some profound entity who sits on a throne with a set of laws and rituals he likes watching us live by.
What if god is more of an energy, more like a thought, a way of feeling that connects humans to each other and to this earth? Would that make god inexistant if the religious texts are wrong?
I have an easier time believing the Bibles are the "inspired" words of God, than I do that the koran is the actual words of god. It's easier to comprehend that god inspires humans, than to actually dictate.
I hope all that made sense, it's early here on a holiday morning and I am barely into my first cup of coffee. Laughing

katlike



Hello Katlike.
What you say make sense.
I also believe that God is an energy. An energy we are all part off.
As in everything, and everywhere. Good and bad. There is nothing that he/she is not.
This omni-present conscious power we call God.
The kingdom of God is a state of the mind, in which we experience happiness, love and freedom. Therefore, the kingdom of God is within us.
We only will experience this state of mind when we really know ourselves, our inner being, who we really are. We can only acquire this knowledge, by recognizing the evil inclinations within us, and subsequently fighting these evil powers.

These thoughts make me happy, but other times I doubt, and think there is no God..

Spilt personality All_Brains? Laughing Or am I just a doubter.
Mutley

katlike wrote:
Quote:
All_Brains:
Quote:
Sure! I just added possibility no.4, which is the next logical assumption for a no-show being!


Actually it was me who added possibity no. 4, you stopped at 3, but whose keeping score right? Razz


Of course, the 4th option is yours for your credit.

I just happen to completely agree with it and passed it onto the thread initiator.


Hey katlike, remember me??? We used to talk about "rare rare rare" subjects of de Mello and krishnamurti. Remember how "rare rare rare: that was?? You started your own alley way for that mizz kitty and I used to be a guest singer there, rare rare rare, scratch scratch. Maybe we were both high on catnip that night Laughing Lord knows the trashcans were full of it back then, weren't they?. Fist fist. Rare rare. Crackle crackle. Show it to me cat babe. You know you want this Mutley dog. (winkee winkee) Laughing .
HomoErectus

Mutley wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
WE all know that famous sentence from Friedrich Nitzsche: "Gott ist tot!"
[God id dead, wheras god says: "Nietzsche is dead!"]

It might also be possible that "GOD" died... why not?


Because that would mean that God had a beginning as well, if God could have an end. Therefore, that wouldn't be God because we would ask what God created God, and so on and so on and so on. Infinitite regression of cause. If there is a God, it is undeniable that God cannot be a created being and must be something outside of physicality itself. Metaphysical maybe? Call it whatever you want. Otherwise, if God is within physicality, then a cause or origin must be attributed to God, and therefore, the cause could be considered to be the real God. Nietzsche was a pompous moron sometimes.



Dear Mutley

You bring up exactly what I said at some other point, we tend to apply HUMAN logic onto "God[s]" !

All I'm trying to do is exactly to GET AWAY from this human logic, when thinking about the possibility of "God[s]".


HomoErectus wrote:

And in his death, all the energy became our universe... and why not?


Quote:

Where did God get the energy from? Wouldn't that then be a cause of God and therefore God? If God exists, logic demands that God be uncaused.



See what I mean, you [human being] think that it is all like in a chain reaction, one follows the other, and so on.....

"Logic demands", you say - WHAT logic might this be?

It is these questions which have made me become an AGNOSTIC - which, in the worldly sense, means that I do NOT know.

And I realize, that all theories are just speculations, assumptions... "belief" again !

When actually we KNOW literally nothing, we are not able to think in these [possible or not] categories.


Quote:

Strangely enough, the sack cloth ancients actually got that part right. They were even smarter than Nietzche, as obviously he couldn't see the flaw in his thinking.



Nietzsche was an "agent provocateur" sometimes.
And he was/is greatly misunderstood, as being the fascist philosopher.


As for the "sack cloth ancients"....
They were laying the foundations for all the miseries, death and destruction, all across the centuries, across all the regions or countries, continents, places - all of them religions doing the same, at some point of history.

I despise them all.

They are designed to bring some good for the people, help them in all their personal insecurities, and yet...
It all turns into blood, death and destruction!

And at the same time hypocritically invoking their "God[s]", acting "oh-so-holy" - Death in the name of their "GOD[s]" !!!

Isn't it despicable?
Mutley

HomoErectus wrote:
Mutley wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
WE all know that famous sentence from Friedrich Nitzsche: "Gott ist tot!"
[God id dead, wheras god says: "Nietzsche is dead!"]

It might also be possible that "GOD" died... why not?


Because that would mean that God had a beginning as well, if God could have an end. Therefore, that wouldn't be God because we would ask what God created God, and so on and so on and so on. Infinitite regression of cause. If there is a God, it is undeniable that God cannot be a created being and must be something outside of physicality itself. Metaphysical maybe? Call it whatever you want. Otherwise, if God is within physicality, then a cause or origin must be attributed to God, and therefore, the cause could be considered to be the real God. Nietzsche was a pompous moron sometimes.



Dear Mutley

You bring up exactly what I said at some other point, we tend to apply HUMAN logic onto "God[s]" !

All I'm trying to do is exactly to GET AWAY from this human logic, when thinking about the possibility of "God[s]".


Gods are logically impossible as well. If there are multiple Gods, then which God preceded which? Isn't the first one the origin and therefore the real God? It's one thing for one entity to poof into existence out of thin air without cause, but multiple ones doing it at the same time?


HomoErectus wrote:

And in his death, all the energy became our universe... and why not?


Quote:

Where did God get the energy from? Wouldn't that then be a cause of God and therefore God? If God exists, logic demands that God be uncaused.



See what I mean, you [human being] think that it is all like in a chain reaction, one follows the other, and so on.....[/quote]

Can you show me anything physical that is uncaused? No end is understasndable to the conceptualizing mind, but no beginning is beyond it. So if God could die, then God had a beginning, and if God had a beginning, what was responsible for that beginning? Can anything come from nothing?

HomoErectus wrote:

"Logic demands", you say - WHAT logic might this be?


Any logic. Let's simply call God "the ultimate source". If God were found to have a source, could that God still be called God, i.e. the ultimate source? No. There's no way around that.

HomoErectus wrote:

It is these questions which have made me become an AGNOSTIC - which, in the worldly sense, means that I do NOT know..

And I realize, that all theories are just speculations, assumptions... "belief" again !

When actually we KNOW literally nothing, we are not able to think in these [possible or not] categories.


That's fine. Maybe we cannot really say what God is because it would be beyond the conceptualizing mind. But we CAN say what God isn't.

HomoErectus wrote:

Quote:

Strangely enough, the sack cloth ancients actually got that part right. They were even smarter than Nietzche, as obviously he couldn't see the flaw in his thinking.



Nietzsche was an "agent provocateur" sometimes.
And he was/is greatly misunderstood, as being the fascist philosopher.


Regardless of other issues, he nade a mistake on this one.

HomoErectus wrote:

As for the "sack cloth ancients"....
They were laying the foundations for all the miseries, death and destruction, all across the centuries, across all the regions or countries, continents, places - all of them religions doing the same, at some point of history.

I despise them all.


Does the gun kill or the person?

HomoErectus wrote:

They are designed to bring some good for the people, help them in all their personal insecurities, and yet...
It all turns into blood, death and destruction!


I can't deny the outcomes.

HomoErectus wrote:

And at the same time hypocritically invoking their "God[s]", acting "oh-so-holy" - Death in the name of their "GOD[s]" !!!

Isn't it despicable?


Yes. It's ignorance at it's finest. When I run into people like that, I go through a few steps with them and end up proving that they do not love God, they love what God is supposed to do for them. There's a difference. When someone needs God, then real love of God is impossible because they will ultimately merely end up loving the fulfillment of their need, not God. Some people are like solid bricks and I explain it to them over and over and over again, but they just can't get it. Maybe it's because they don't want to get it. Probably, because the concept is a simple, self evident truth.
Mutley

The silence of God.

We all talk to ourselves constantly. It's called the internal dialogue. We all say words to ourself in our own voice and native language. It's almost unavoidable. So maybe God doesn't talk to us because he can't get a word in edgewise.
Just a thought.
humandecency

Is it possible that God used to exist, but not any more?

Or he could be having a long sleep?
Mutley

humandecency wrote:
Is it possible that God used to exist, but not any more?

Or he could be having a long sleep?


If God doesn't exist anymore, then the conclusion is that God was a created entity. So if that's the case, then who or what created God? And shouldn't THAT be considered God? The answer would be yes, if we hold to the idea that God created all things. So then what created THAT God, or God of God? Can you see how the backwards chain of cause would go on for infinity? That's called infinite regression. So we have a choice.

1) We could claim God as a metaphysical entity rather than physical, then we can circumvent the problem of God having no cause, because physical entities or energies or whatever, must have a cause. Otherwise, the magician really did make a rabbit appear out of thin air. Therefore, claiming God as metaphysical allows us to claim God as uncaused, which is a necessity. Otherwise, we are left with number 2

2) God is a highly superior physical entity and we have infinite regression which means that God cannot exist, or at least cannot exist as the creator of all things, because in infinite regression, all gods have a cause, and therefore you have an infinite chain of God of God of God.....none of which can actually be called God because none of them could be called the creator of all things.

So essentially, God cannot be a created entity AND also be the creator of all things, and there cannot be a God in the scenario of infinite regression. So we have a choice between two absurdities. A non created creator or infinite regression. Take your pick as they are both absurd. I think a non created, metaphysical creator is less absurd then an infinite chain of Gods where none of them can actually be God. But both of them are really beyond the conceptualizing mind, as is life itself.
IoshkaFutz

The silence of God makes three pages of noise here at FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT.

La donna mobile, e la vita rumorosa
Mutley

IoshkaFutz wrote:
The silence of God makes three pages of noise here at FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT.

La donna mobile, e la vita rumorosa


Yeah...great.
norwegian

Ameen wrote:
Quote:
Or a simple c) God is silent, because he does not exist!


I disaagree and view this, a bit simplistic.

Silence is not a condition of non existence, and neither is evil.

I haven;t heard the guy who buily my computer speak, but he definitely does exist!

Stalin was evil, but he definitely did exist!

I hope you fathom the point.

Ameen:)


How are these two comparable Ameen? The computer guy and Stalin never claimed to be onmiscient or a savior watching over your every move. For someone who claims to have created man in his image, god is quite unlike man. He doesn't show up to help when he's needed and he's proven to be capable of immense unprovoked cruelty, unlike any man I've ever read. He's more like the UFO story that refuses to go away and has a shyness factor that'll put little green men to shame.

God as an energy? Everything can be broken down into energy. We're all part of a vast energy ecosystem. We consume and produce it. Does it mean we are in part god?

On why god is silent, I think its because he has left the building, having lost interest in this little experiment.
Tvebak

norwegian wrote:
Ameen wrote:
Quote:
Or a simple c) God is silent, because he does not exist!


I disaagree and view this, a bit simplistic.

Silence is not a condition of non existence, and neither is evil.

I haven;t heard the guy who buily my computer speak, but he definitely does exist!

Stalin was evil, but he definitely did exist!

I hope you fathom the point.

Ameen:)


How are these two comparable Ameen? The computer guy and Stalin never claimed to be onmiscient or a savior watching over your every move. For someone who claims to have created man in his image, god is quite unlike man. He doesn't show up to help when he's needed and he's proven to be capable of immense unprovoked cruelty, unlike any man I've ever read. He's more like the UFO story that refuses to go away and has a shyness factor that'll put little green men to shame.

God as an energy? Everything can be broken down into energy. We're all part of a vast energy ecosystem. We consume and produce it. Does it mean we are in part god?

On why god is silent, I think its because he has left the building, having lost interest in this little experiment.


Hi Norwegian

Hmm you have a good argument there Very Happy

Personally I have a "theory" that 'god' is a brat that soon will climb to 4 degree 'godling'-level and he is about 12 of what we would call years. And the world we are living in is his school-project from the 2 degree 'godling'-level, which the pupils are to make alterations throughout the whole schooltime, but it's not a project they are to work at all the time. There's other homework, specialtime with familiy and such which is of importance. But every now and then they get an urge to fiddle with their personal 'world' or they get some a assignment in school regarding their 'world'. And we are therefore the mere project of a brat who gets teased by the elder 'godlings' because he's a litlle tubby or something. The imagination is without limit Smile

Cheers and peace
norwegian

Tvebak wrote:
Personally I have a "theory" that 'god' is a brat that soon will climb to 4 degree 'godling'-level and he is about 12 of what we would call years. And the world we are living in is his school-project from the 2 degree 'godling'-level, which the pupils are to make alterations throughout the whole schooltime, but it's not a project they are to work at all the time. There's other homework, specialtime with familiy and such which is of importance. But every now and then they get an urge to fiddle with their personal 'world' or they get some a assignment in school regarding their 'world'. And we are therefore the mere project of a brat who gets teased by the elder 'godlings' because he's a litlle tubby or something. The imagination is without limit Smile


Haha, yeah I guess show and tell is over now Smile. I think many of these complications would go away on a simple assertion: he does not exist.

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