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cosmicdancer

The Speech of God?

Another video:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oKoEu8xS7nk

I made it late last night after putting the kids to sleep and didn't really plan it properly - and so I'm sorry I should have added subtitles.

Translation:

Peace be upon you and the mercy of god and his blessing, today I will present a video in arabic and I want to speak a little bit about the Qur'an and I shall begin with some verses from it. (First few verses from sura yasin - my first son's name - Smile )

Is this the speech of god or the speech of men? I used o believe that this is the speech of God but now I believe it is the speech of Muhammad and that god - if there is a god - does not send down books or send prophets, but all of this is from the imagination of man, even though they are sincere in their belief.

I was born Muslim and for 48 years I was a devout Muslim, but i the last few years doubts beset me. Doubts in the Qur'an, doubts in islam, doubts in everything, doubts in all that I used to believe in. I tried to push away these doubts, I , tried in every way, but they did not increase except in fury and extremity, and left nothing but questions.

How could the Merciful, the forgiving, say that he will torture those who don't believe in him, a torture that is permanent, everlasting, horrible, and frightening beyond all extreme. How can the gentle and the loving that it is allowed for a husband to hit his wife, how can the Peaceful, the Compassionate, 'kill the polythiests wherever one finds them!'

All these questions went around my conscience, and I couldn't find an answer that assured my heart or quietened my soul. Until I found no option but the conclusion that this is not the speech of God, but the speech of man, man from the 7th century, man who posses the mentality of his time andvthe thinking of his age.

So my associates friends said that the Qur'an is a miracle in it's language and it's style, and no one can challenge or bring the same as it. But this is a subjective opinion and not an objective one and depends on the view of the individual reading the qu'ran and depends upon his faith - or lack of faith.

Now, when I read the quran I see no reason to suppose this is the speech of god but I see many reasons to supose this is the speech of man.

Until we met again - peace be upon you.
Baal

I must admit i never cared much about Yasin. Only went over it couple times for the couple times i read the koran. Never realized its value to koran readers until I saw this video and read people's comments on the forums.
AhmedBahgat

Typical used by date kafir rants

cheers
BMZ

Baal wrote:
I must admit i never cared much about Yasin. Only went over it couple times for the couple times i read the koran. Never realized its value to koran readers until I saw this video and read people's comments on the forums.


Why worry? Nobody cares if you cared not. You never understood Arabic, anyway. Laughing
BMZ

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Typical used by date kafir rants

cheers


Very Happy

Ahmed, I am always amazed by the repeat and stale rants by people who never understood Qur'aan in the first place.

BMZ
Fathom

BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Typical used by date kafir rants

cheers


Very Happy

Ahmed, I am always amazed by the repeat and stale rants by people who never understood Qur'aan in the first place.

BMZ


You keep saying that those who reject the Quran do so because they don't understand it.

Have you considered that those who reject the Quran do so because they do understand it?
BMZ

Fathom wrote:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Typical used by date kafir rants

cheers


Very Happy

Ahmed, I am always amazed by the repeat and stale rants by people who never understood Qur'aan in the first place.

BMZ


You keep saying that those who reject the Quran do so because they don't understand it.

Have you considered that those who reject the Quran do so because they do understand it?


Good question.

Rejecting Qur'aan is a different matter. Those who do not understand it, do reject it and some who pretend to understand it, while understanding nothing, also reject it.

But in the majority of cases, I find that those who reject it, really understood nothing.

Let me give you an example, assuming you have fully understood it. Please allow me to refer to the  so-called "Killer Verses".

Do you believe that Qur'aan really instructs Muslims to kill all infidels and other people who are not Muslims?

If you say, "Yes", then I would say that you never fully understood it. Fair? Yes or no?
BMZ

Re: The Speech of God?

Hello, CD

Some comments for your reading pleasure.

cosmicdancer wrote:
Is this the speech of god or the speech of men? I used to believe that this is the speech of God but now I believe it is the speech of Muhammad and that god - if there is a god - does not send down books or send prophets, but all of this is from the imagination of man, even though they are sincere in their belief.


Of course God did not send the Scripture in the form of a book from the heavens. Had God directly sent down a printed book and if people had touched the pages to feel, they would still have rejected and would have called it a trick or an illusion. No Scripture came down in the form of a paperback or a hard copy. If the Scriptures were only imaginations from men, then those imaginations would have run wild.

cosmicdancer wrote:
I was born Muslim and for 48 years I was a devout Muslim, but i the last few years doubts beset me. Doubts in the Qur'an, doubts in islam, doubts in everything, doubts in all that I used to believe in. I tried to push away these doubts, I , tried in every way, but they did not increase except in fury and extremity, and left nothing but questions.


Why don't you discuss those doubts one by one here? It would make a very interesting topic.

cosmicdancer wrote:
How could the Merciful, the forgiving, say that he will torture those who don't believe in him, a torture that is permanent, everlasting, horrible, and frightening beyond all extreme. How can the gentle and the loving that it is allowed for a husband to hit his wife, how can the Peaceful, the Compassionate, 'kill the polythiests wherever one finds them!'


The problem is that people think of God in terms of a man, as a very old man, full of vengeance, sitting there with long hair and a very long beard, who created man in his own image. People think of God from the angle of a man. Man is the only specie, which commits all sorts of crimes and sins and is never merciful himself to fellow man and is ready to exact revenge with vengeance. Is ready to punish and attack others brutally and yet expects God to let him go scot-free.

How can we expect God to be merciful to the killers, murderers, rapists, robbers who loot and kill?
There has to be a difference between good and evil. If the doers of evil are treated the same way like the doers of good, what need is there to be do-gooders? When a murderer kills a person, how many generations of people he has destroyed along with the deceased and prevented their entry into this world? Why should God be merciful to such a person?


cosmicdancer wrote:
All these questions went around my conscience, and I couldn't find an answer that assured my heart or quietened my soul. Until I found no option but the conclusion that this is not the speech of God, but the speech of man, man from the 7th century, man who posses the mentality of his time and the thinking of his age.


Which Scripture in the world is a direct speech or address from God? Have you explored the men and their mentality of the backward centuries 1 AD and 15 centuries before the 1st century?
Let me ask you about this verse. "Wa ma nata-naz-zalo illa bay-amray-rab-bay-ka". Who is talking here? God or Muhammad? Please excuse my style of transliteration. I do that to enable readers to get close to Arabic pronunciation.

Salaams
BMZ
Tvebak

Re: The Speech of God?

BMZ wrote:

The problem is that people think of God in terms of a man, as a very old man, full of vengeance, sitting there with long hair and a very long beard, who created man in his own image. People think of God from the angle of a man. Man is the only specie, which commits all sorts of crimes and sins and is never merciful himself to fellow man and is ready to exact revenge with vengeance. Is ready to punish and attack others brutally and yet expects God to let him go scot-free.

How can we expect God to be merciful to the killers, murderers, rapists, robbers who loot and kill?
There has to be a difference between good and evil. If the doers of evil are treated the same way like the doers of good, what need is there to be do-gooders? When a murderer kills a person, how many generations of people he has destroyed along with the deceased and prevented their entry into this world? Why should God be merciful to such a person?



Hello BMZ

Sorry to but in Smile But why should "god" create the 'many generations' at first? Theoretically he knew that he would throw, probably, most of is creations in hell for eternity. Why? Because "god" created them. They are being punished in eternity by "god" because they where created by "god". According to our delightful "gods" of the judeo-christian-islamic tradition "god" knows what will happen at all time. Therefore before creating anything at all "god" knows that "god" will torture most of his creations in eternity. And I'm not thinking about a "god" with beard and long hair like a wizard. I'm just thinking about a "god" which is described in the different "holy" scriptures we know today. "God" ceased being merciful at all time, cause at all time "god" knew that he would create minions; minions destined to hell and eternal punishment.

Quote:
When a murderer kills a person, how many generations of people he has destroyed along with the deceased and prevented their entry into this world? Why should God be merciful to such a person?


apparently your "god" will accept the killing if a person of the killers group is killed or if the person pays an agreed amount of money. So much for the many generation who would have come Wink They are only worth an equal amount of generations or some petty money.

Peace
Baal

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
I must admit i never cared much about Yasin. Only went over it couple times for the couple times i read the koran. Never realized its value to koran readers until I saw this video and read people's comments on the forums.


Why worry? Nobody cares if you cared not. You never understood Arabic, anyway. Laughing

Nice smiley face. The trademark of a busy muslim mind.
cosmicdancer

Re: The Speech of God?

Hi BMZ - long time no see - thanks for your comments.

BMZ wrote:
Of course God did not send the Scripture in the form of a book...


If that's really what you thought I meant then you disappoint me.

BMZ wrote:
The problem is that people think of God in terms of a man, as a very old man, full of vengeance, sitting there with long hair and a very long beard, who created man in his own image...


I have never, ever thought such a thing, BMZ.

BMZ wrote:
If the doers of evil are treated the same way like the doers of good...


Not believing in Islam or God is not a evil nor a crime.

BMZ wrote:
Let me ask you about this verse. "Wa ma nata-naz-zalo illa bay-amray-rab-bay-ka". Who is talking here? God or Muhammad?


This is the only interesting question you have posed, BMZ. Of course it cannot have escaped your notice that I believe it is all a creation of Muhammad's mind.

But from a believers point of view this is still the word of God even though it is the quoted speech of the angel Gabriel to Muhammad.

I'm intrigued to know what point you are making here?
arildno

Do remember BMZ, that the Quran repeatedly denounces unbelievers for being WORSE than murderers, rapists etc.

This is generally known as demonization techniques.
BMZ

Hi CD,

My point was in response to this part of your question:


Quote:
How could the Merciful, the forgiving, say that he will torture those who don't believe in him, a torture that is permanent, everlasting, horrible, and frightening beyond all extreme.


Cheers
BMZ
BMZ

arildno wrote:
Do remember BMZ, that the Quran repeatedly denounces unbelievers for being WORSE than murderers, rapists etc.

This is generally known as demonization techniques.


arildno,

Please quote the verses from a particular section, where a topic is being mentioned. Don't just quote the translation of a verse. And specifically the verse that considers the unbelievers "murderers, rapists, etc."

BMZ
cosmicdancer

BMZ wrote:
Hi CD,

My point was in response to this part of your question:


Quote:
How could the Merciful, the forgiving, say that he will torture those who don't believe in him, a torture that is permanent, everlasting, horrible, and frightening beyond all extreme.


Cheers
BMZ


You've lost me BMZ - sorry.

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