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ibnishaq

WHAT THE F***K?

i always knew that islam was a bit strict on some issues. but i NEVER knew that virtually everything is islam is haram.

my god:

music, opposite gender interaction, tv watching, homosexuality, dogs, going to the fucking mall where there are women, etc!

i mean my gosh, what the hell? i go to a hanafi, anti wahhabi website. so you would think they would b a bit more modern and not so damn strict as the flucking hanabis. but i go here and what do i see!

i see articles like "tv take away time from god so it is haram" "music affects your emotion and so all but nasheeds are haram" "pictures of your friends are haram scratch them out" "get rid of your dog unless you are hunting because it is haram" "quit your job if you work with women" "do not go to unviersity with other women" "do not go out to eat in a public mixed atmospheres" "cafes allow card playing so it is haram" "e-mail your female friends and tell them you must cease talking with them because it is haram" "do not reply to a woman telling you hi" "do not even look at a woman under any circumstances" "do not go to a resturant where they sell wine, it is haram" "only by a cell phone with 911 access because you will over exceed talking, which is haram" "do not watch documentaries with animals in it, it is haram" and the fucking list goes ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON.

i thought islam was supposed to be simple. so what the hell is all this shit? i go to a HANAFI website aka the most liberal ones. i go to sunnipath etc, and this is the shit i get!

here is my question to yall: what CAN a muslim do? read the quran all day and go to sleep and wake up and repeat it?

my god it make me furious that you can not do ANYTHING in this fucking religion.
BMZ

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.

The problem is that you are trying to learn from the internet sites and forums. Stop visiting them and instead read Qur'aan with full concentration and try to understand the message.

Once you have done that, you would not need to visit those sites. Islam is not about putting on a skull cap or trousers which should be above the ankle, in length, or growing up beards and shaving off moustasche or entering the toilet by putting your left foot forward.

Try to read and understand. Once you have done that, you will not have the urge to go and visit the sites, which bother you most.

Salaams & Good Night
BMZ
HomoErectus

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

BMZ wrote:
[i]ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.

The problem is that you are trying to learn from the internet sites and forums. Stop visiting them and instead read Qur'aan with full concentration and try to understand the message.



RIGHT !!!!!
Go and read the quran and ahadith with an open mind, think and comment on it... within yourself !
Question if THESE words from the "quran" could possibly be the words of some "god" !

Its self-revealing !

Excuse me, I don't mean to be rude to you personally, but then its you personally, who is writing here !


Quote:

Once you have done that, you would not need to visit those sites. Islam is not about putting on a skull cap or trousers which should be above the ankle, in length, or growing up beards and shaving off moustasche or entering the toilet by putting your left foot forward.



Its way more absurd !
It claims some "god" who demands all kinds of absurdities from you, telling you there is a jinn in the toilet, and the devil sleeps in your nostrils !


Quote:

Try to read and understand. Once you have done that, you will not have the urge to go and visit the sites, which bother you most.



Thats exactly what is asked from the reader - to comprehend what he is reading, to understand the whole circle of the hoax !

.
ibnishaq

BMZ yes you make sense but i can not just throw out thousands of years f islamic scholarly!

when the coptic priest asked me if i wanted to become christian i said no and he asked me to give him 10 reasons that put me off of christianity and one reason was because catholics claim to have infallibility, and they make up 50% of christians. how can christians be so divided on their own history and how can we trust it??? i mean god would NOT make a religion be corrupted for all this time and then have some man down the road fix it.. aka protestant reformation. basically they are saying for 1500 years the christians were all wrong. and ti was not until luther that it was TRULY brought.

i can not trust a religion that is that much differently.

with sunni shia yeah, you have infallability too. but you also know exactly WHEN they split, and WHY, and so we can differentiate between right and wrong.

therefore if i do decide to stay muslim, i will try and follow the traditional way, or at least BELIEVE it even if i do not follow 100%.

while albania is hanafi my family were shaffi and so the main book we rely on is the reliance of traveller for information. and this book is clear.. women and men should never interact unless necessary. music is absolutely wrong no matter what. do not even touch a dog because it is impure. etc etc, and most shaffi scholars and hanafi say that the fucking TELEVISION is haram and it is just sad!!!!
All_Brains

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

BMZ wrote:
ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.



I have to disagree with you here BMZ, we are far from confused. As a manner of fact, I have never been so certain and happy with my life!
Baal

Ibnishaq, the answer to this dilemma is the following:

"Stop thinking in term of halal and haram. Think in term of Right and Wrong."

Halal & Haram means you, and all of yours, have delegated your mental faculty to someone else. Someone else determine what is wrong and what is right for you and labelled it as Halal & Haram.

It is Haram to steal from a muslim. It is Haram to eat pork. It is haram to bang a prostitute, unless you marry her first. But it is Halal to divorce her right after. Thinking in term of Halal & Haram implies "Not Thinking.

This "Not Thinking" is a byproduct of "Submission". You can either Think or you can Submit. You can not have both. Even the best Simulation games out there list those Two as opposite factions. When you submit, you submit your mind to someone else. It does not matter if that someone else lived and died 1400yrs ago.

I will quote a line from the movie "Running Man" when the boss was putting his henchman in his place: "Think? I am not paying you to think". Everytime you think to yourself, this is what Muhammad and his reincarnation of the day, whether Bahgat or BMZ are telling you.

So what I am telling you, as a person who prefers to think, is always evaluate everything in term of "Right & Wrong". Leave the "Halal & Haram" to the lizard eating tarsis who did not bring or add anything new to this world beside murder and hate and ransom.
They call me Tater Salad

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

ibnishaq wrote:


here is my question to yall: what CAN a muslim do? read the quran all day and go to sleep and wake up and repeat it?


That's about what I've been able to get from it.

ibnishaq wrote:

my god it make me furious that you can not do ANYTHING in this fucking religion.


God doesn't want religious automotons.  He wants people to use the brains and free will He gave us.  So there you go.
kafir forever

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

ibnishaq wrote:
my god it make me furious that you can not do ANYTHING in this fucking religion.


Yeah, you cannot even get out of it without the threat of death.  Twisted Evil
BMZ

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.



I have to disagree with you here BMZ, we are far from confused. As a manner of fact, I have never been so certain and happy with my life!


When I referred to the "other confused minds", I meant people at other Islamic sites or those Muslims with whom ibniishaq talks to or discusses with, not you or anyone here, A_B.  

Hope this clarifies.

BMZ
BMZ

Baal wrote:
Ibnishaq, the answer to this dilemma is the following:

"Stop thinking in term of halal and haram. Think in term of Right and Wrong."

Halal & Haram means you, and all of yours, have delegated your mental faculty to someone else. Someone else determine what is wrong and what is right for you and labelled it as Halal & Haram.

It is Haram to steal from a muslim. It is Haram to eat pork. It is haram to bang a prostitute, unless you marry her first. But it is Halal to divorce her right after. Thinking in term of Halal & Haram implies "Not Thinking.

This "Not Thinking" is a byproduct of "Submission". You can either Think or you can Submit. You can not have both. Even the best Simulation games out there list those Two as opposite factions. When you submit, you submit your mind to someone else. It does not matter if that someone else lived and died 1400yrs ago.

I will quote a line from the movie "Running Man" when the boss was putting his henchman in his place: "Think? I am not paying you to think". Everytime you think to yourself, this is what Muhammad and his reincarnation of the day, whether Bahgat or BMZ are telling you.

So what I am telling you, as a person who prefers to think, is always evaluate everything in term of "Right & Wrong". Leave the "Halal & Haram" to the lizard eating tarsis who did not bring or add anything new to this world beside murder and hate and ransom.


Baal,

One request. When you wish to make a personal attack or talk about me, address direct to me in a post.

But do not mention my name in any post which you address to others. You have to come out of this mentality and leave it behind.

I am enjoying the civil exchanges here, so get out of FFI dirty mode.

You can show your allergies of dislike and hate to me direct. Is that clear? I hope so.

BMZ
BMZ

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

HomoErectus wrote:
RIGHT !!!!!
Go and read the quran and ahadith with an open mind, think and comment on it... within yourself !
Question if THESE words from the "quran" could possibly be the words of some "god" !

Its self-revealing !

Excuse me, I don't mean to be rude to you personally, but then its you personally, who is writing here !

Its way more absurd !
It claims some "god" who demands all kinds of absurdities from you, telling you there is a jinn in the toilet, and the devil sleeps in your nostrils !

Thats exactly what is asked from the reader - to comprehend what he is reading, to understand the whole circle of the hoax !


You need to learn to be able to differentiate between Qur'aan and Hadith. Qur'aan stands Supreme, while Hadith does not. Is that clear?

Hadith is not the Word of God. It is a collection of stories and narrations by other men and you can treat it like the New Testament, full of stories and misinformation, which may contain some truth but is mostly hoax.
All_Brains

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.



I have to disagree with you here BMZ, we are far from confused. As a manner of fact, I have never been so certain and happy with my life!


When I referred to the "other confused minds", I meant people at other Islamic sites or those Muslims with whom ibniishaq talks to or discusses with, not you or anyone here, A_B.  

Hope this clarifies.

BMZ


Cool my man! Nothing more I like an individual than being direct and courageous! You have already earned the respect of many here, despite difference of opinion.

I think may be that what can everyone at the end of the day settle for. If a certain doctrine does not pose a direct and clear threat to people, then we should be all free to believe of disbelieve it!
BMZ

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.



I have to disagree with you here BMZ, we are far from confused. As a manner of fact, I have never been so certain and happy with my life!


When I referred to the "other confused minds", I meant people at other Islamic sites or those Muslims with whom ibniishaq talks to or discusses with, not you or anyone here, A_B.  

Hope this clarifies.

BMZ


Cool my man! Nothing more I like an individual than being direct and courageous! You have already earned the respect of many here, despite difference of opinion.

I think may be that what can everyone at the end of the day settle for. If a certain doctrine does not pose a direct and clear threat to people, then we should be all free to believe of disbelieve it!


Thanks, A_B. I am sure no religion or doctrine, excluding the now-dead Nazism and Communism, poses a direct and clear threat to people and humanity.

I will quote you a verse of Qur'aan, where the Lord Almighty God teaches something very important to Muhammad telling him that people will not be forced to believe against their will:


Quote:
Afa anta tukray-han-naasa, hatta yakyuno momineen?


BMZ
Baal

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.



I have to disagree with you here BMZ, we are far from confused. As a manner of fact, I have never been so certain and happy with my life!


When I referred to the "other confused minds", I meant people at other Islamic sites or those Muslims with whom ibniishaq talks to or discusses with, not you or anyone here, A_B.  

Hope this clarifies.

BMZ


Cool my man! Nothing more I like an individual than being direct and courageous! You have already earned the respect of many here, despite difference of opinion.

I think may be that what can everyone at the end of the day settle for. If a certain doctrine does not pose a direct and clear threat to people, then we should be all free to believe of disbelieve it!


Thanks, A_B. I am sure no religion or doctrine, excluding the now-dead Nazism and Communism, poses a direct and clear threat to people and humanity.

I will quote you a verse of Qur'aan, where the Lord Almighty God teaches something very important to Muhammad telling him that people will not be forced to believe against their will:


Quote:
Afa anta tukray-han-naasa, hatta yakyuno momineen?


BMZ

The question is: Do you hate people until they become believers?

The answer to that question, according to koran and Muhammad sayings, the sayings that do not contradict the koran anyways, is Yes.

You might have a different answer BMZ but it is insignificant if it contradicts uswa hasana.
BMZ

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.



I have to disagree with you here BMZ, we are far from confused. As a manner of fact, I have never been so certain and happy with my life!


When I referred to the "other confused minds", I meant people at other Islamic sites or those Muslims with whom ibniishaq talks to or discusses with, not you or anyone here, A_B.  

Hope this clarifies.

BMZ


Cool my man! Nothing more I like an individual than being direct and courageous! You have already earned the respect of many here, despite difference of opinion.

I think may be that what can everyone at the end of the day settle for. If a certain doctrine does not pose a direct and clear threat to people, then we should be all free to believe of disbelieve it!


Thanks, A_B. I am sure no religion or doctrine, excluding the now-dead Nazism and Communism, poses a direct and clear threat to people and humanity.

I will quote you a verse of Qur'aan, where the Lord Almighty God teaches something very important to Muhammad telling him that people will not be forced to believe against their will:


Quote:
Afa anta tukray-han-naasa, hatta yakuno momineen?


BMZ


Edited to correct the spelling for 'yakuno'.
BMZ
BMZ

I like this style of questioning, Baal. Thanks

Quote:
Afa anta tukray-han-naasa, hatta yakuno momineen?


Baal wrote:
The question is: Do you hate people until they become believers?

The answer to that question, according to koran and Muhammad sayings, the sayings that do not contradict the koran anyways, is Yes.

You might have a different answer BMZ but it is insignificant if it contradicts uswa hasana.


That is a very good question, Baal and i will explain.

"Afa anta tukray-han-naasa", does not mean "Will you then hate people", Baal. It simply means,"So will you compel people" OR "Will you force people".

The verse was giving this message to Muhammad: "So, will you compel or force people till they believe?" Thus you will realise that it is in perfect tune with "Laa ikraaha fid-deen", which means "There will be no compulsion or force in religion."

"Laa ikraaha fid-deen" does not mean "There will be no hate in religion." So, hate is not the word, Baal.

Hope you will agree with me on this. I am not an Arab. I learnt the hard way.

BMZ
Baal

Hey BMZ, What is the verse, I need to read the word with the vowels on top of it. That will determine the meaning of the sentence. the word tukray-han does not exit, so I need to see the original.

It should be Takrahan or Tukarrihan or maybe something else, I need to read it. And why are you hanging so hard to the "La Ikrahaa fil deen", we know what happened to the people that muhammad said that to.
BMZ

Baal wrote:
Hey BMZ, What is the verse, I need to read the word with the vowels on top of it. That will determine the meaning of the sentence. the word tukray-han does not exit, so I need to see the original.

It should be Takrahan or Tukarrihan or maybe something else, I need to read it. And why are you hanging so hard to the "La Ikrahaa fil deen", we know what happened to the people that muhammad said that to.


Hi Baal,

I quoted that verse off my memory and tried a transliteration my style, which may not have gone down well. It is definitely not Takrahan and also definitely not Tukarrihan. You are right on one point,
'tukray-han' which I should have written as 'tukray-hun'. That is my mistake in the transliteration.

Will quote the reference from Qur'aan when I go back home, so that you can read the Arabic. Why do you need vowels to understand, Baal. I, a non-Arab, can read Qur'aan's Arabic without the 'vowels' and strokes.

As an Arab, you should be able to do better than I. Right?

BMZ
BMZ

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
Hey BMZ, What is the verse, I need to read the word with the vowels on top of it. That will determine the meaning of the sentence. the word tukray-han does not exit, so I need to see the original.

It should be Takrahan or Tukarrihan or maybe something else, I need to read it. And why are you hanging so hard to the "La Ikrahaa fil deen", we know what happened to the people that muhammad said that to.


Hi Baal,

I quoted that verse off my memory and tried a transliteration my style, which may not have gone down well. It is definitely not Takrahan and also definitely not Tukarrihan. You are right on one point,
'tukray-han' which I should have written as 'tukray-hun'. That is my mistake in the transliteration.

Will quote the reference from Qur'aan when I go back home, so that you can read the Arabic. Why do you need vowels to understand, Baal. I, a non-Arab, can read Qur'aan's Arabic without the 'vowels' and strokes.

As an Arab, you should be able to do better than I. Right?

BMZ


Edited to quote the verse.

Baal, read Surah 10 Yunus, part of verse 99.

BMZ
All_Brains

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
Hey BMZ, What is the verse, I need to read the word with the vowels on top of it. That will determine the meaning of the sentence. the word tukray-han does not exit, so I need to see the original.

It should be Takrahan or Tukarrihan or maybe something else, I need to read it. And why are you hanging so hard to the "La Ikrahaa fil deen", we know what happened to the people that muhammad said that to.


Hi Baal,

I quoted that verse off my memory and tried a transliteration my style, which may not have gone down well. It is definitely not Takrahan and also definitely not Tukarrihan. You are right on one point,
'tukray-han' which I should have written as 'tukray-hun'. That is my mistake in the transliteration.

Will quote the reference from Qur'aan when I go back home, so that you can read the Arabic. Why do you need vowels to understand, Baal. I, a non-Arab, can read Qur'aan's Arabic without the 'vowels' and strokes.

As an Arab, you should be able to do better than I. Right?

BMZ


Vowels and pronunciation can change the meaning of the words. Two words can be written exactly the same, but they way they're pronounced can vary the meaning:

For example:

1. Akal(a) : means ate
2. Akl(un) : means food

The Arabic word on both instances is: أكل

Only through "tashkeel" and obviously position and use in sentence can we know the meaning of the word.
Baal

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
BMZ wrote:
ibnishaq,

It is not good and healthy for a confused mind to go and talk to other confused minds. That will keep you perplexed and agitated.



I have to disagree with you here BMZ, we are far from confused. As a manner of fact, I have never been so certain and happy with my life!


When I referred to the "other confused minds", I meant people at other Islamic sites or those Muslims with whom ibniishaq talks to or discusses with, not you or anyone here, A_B.  

Hope this clarifies.

BMZ


Cool my man! Nothing more I like an individual than being direct and courageous! You have already earned the respect of many here, despite difference of opinion.

I think may be that what can everyone at the end of the day settle for. If a certain doctrine does not pose a direct and clear threat to people, then we should be all free to believe of disbelieve it!


Thanks, A_B. I am sure no religion or doctrine, excluding the now-dead Nazism and Communism, poses a direct and clear threat to people and humanity.

I will quote you a verse of Qur'aan, where the Lord Almighty God teaches something very important to Muhammad telling him that people will not be forced to believe against their will:


Quote:
Afa anta tukray-han-naasa, hatta yakyuno momineen?


BMZ

The doctrine of free-market for corporations only poses a threat to humanity.
MrInquisitive

What its worth...

Well, My take on it is: Why even think about it, to begin with?

One of the ideas that I created for myself (you can call it "My religion") is that I should live my life stress free. Regardless of how difficult things in my life get!

You will ask, how can I do that?

I willed it for myself! I live my life stress free. I am in full control of that aspect of ME. Whether others like it or not. That is my choice!

Religion is designed to keep good humans stressed. Worse, one has no control over it!

If I can't control my own life, then, what in the world am I living for?

As if stress is really something good to be had! You decide the rest from here, bro!



Ta ta!
Raza

lol, I like your little rant.
Shaq, did you leave Islam yet?
AhmedBahgat

what Ibnishaq is talking about is a man made religion that Allah never sent

he is as dumb as those who are fooled by Satan to make them think that Allah sanctioned all the above lies as being part of His religion

well done Ibnishaq, you have been done by satan
All_Brains

AhmedBahgat wrote:
what Ibnishaq is talking about is a man made religion that Allah never sent

he is as dumb as those who are fooled by Satan to make them think that Allah sanctioned all the above lies as being part of His religion

well done Ibnishaq, you have been done by satan


Welcome back ahmed and mabrook el kaas! Very Happy
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
what Ibnishaq is talking about is a man made religion that Allah never sent

he is as dumb as those who are fooled by Satan to make them think that Allah sanctioned all the above lies as being part of His religion

well done Ibnishaq, you have been done by satan

Mabrook for the Kaas Ahmed. Ibnishaq, Ahmed is academically correct. Most of the things you mention as banned by islam are not banned in islamic scripture. Specially things like Radio and TV and music as we know it which were not present at the time.

However, in reality, a doctrine that strives to impose inequality and class separation between infidels and believers, men and women and arabs and ajams, a doctrine that strives to control every aspect of your waking and sleeping life, to the point where you start questioning entering the washroom with your left foot, why would such a doctrine stop at music?

We human often fall for the fallacy that when there is pain there Must be gain. That if I work hard in something, I Must get a recognition. If I invest my time or money in something, I Must get a reward. That is of course, Bull. Else no one would have ever lost money on bad investments. All of us would have constantly gained money and gained recognition for every little stupid nice thing we did.

Which is not the case.

So when someone get you to invest so much of your life to pray 5 time to fast 30 days, to wear uncomfortable clothing, to control who you love. The more you obsess, the more you invest, the more control they get over you. And never forget, whoever controls your dick and time, controls your vote and your voice and your wallet.

Ahmed invested all those years learning the koran. He is actually a pretty damn good interpreter of the koran. One of the best I ever met. However because of his investment, it would be next to impossible for him to drop that book in favor of reclaiming his humanity. So he goes around swearing at all other muslims, calling them mushriks, calling them ignorants, trying to get the mountain to come to him.
AhmedBahgat

All_Brains wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
what Ibnishaq is talking about is a man made religion that Allah never sent

he is as dumb as those who are fooled by Satan to make them think that Allah sanctioned all the above lies as being part of His religion

well done Ibnishaq, you have been done by satan


Welcome back ahmed and mabrook el kaas! Very Happy


Thanks mate

however I really don't care about soccor, while I felt joy hen they won it, I still believe that the whole country is brainwashed into soccor so they ignore their religious and polictical problems
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
what Ibnishaq is talking about is a man made religion that Allah never sent

he is as dumb as those who are fooled by Satan to make them think that Allah sanctioned all the above lies as being part of His religion

well done Ibnishaq, you have been done by satan

Mabrook for the Kaas Ahmed. Ibnishaq, Ahmed is academically correct. Most of the things you mention as banned by islam are not banned in islamic scripture. Specially things like Radio and TV and music as we know it which were not present at the time.

However, in reality, a doctrine that strives to impose inequality and class separation between infidels and believers, men and women and arabs and ajams, a doctrine that strives to control every aspect of your waking and sleeping life, to the point where you start questioning entering the washroom with your left foot, why would such a doctrine stop at music?

We human often fall for the fallacy that when there is pain there Must be gain. That if I work hard in something, I Must get a recognition. If I invest my time or money in something, I Must get a reward. That is of course, Bull. Else no one would have ever lost money on bad investments. All of us would have constantly gained money and gained recognition for every little stupid nice thing we did.

Which is not the case.

So when someone get you to invest so much of your life to pray 5 time to fast 30 days, to wear uncomfortable clothing, to control who you love. The more you obsess, the more you invest, the more control they get over you. And never forget, whoever controls your dick and time, controls your vote and your voice and your wallet.

Ahmed invested all those years learning the koran. He is actually a pretty damn good interpreter of the koran. One of the best I ever met. However because of his investment, it would be next to impossible for him to drop that book in favor of reclaiming his humanity. So he goes around swearing at all other muslims, calling them mushriks, calling them ignorants, trying to get the mountain to come to him.


Salam baal

my reply to you and them is only one verse:

Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment.

[The Quran ; 42:21]

أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةُ الْفَصْلِ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (21)

-> See, ” أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ”, i.e. ” Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction?”, please tell me, how many Sheikhs, Mullahs, Imams and Muftis prescribed to us many things in the religion that Allah never sanctioned in His Quran?, can’t get clearer than this,
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
what Ibnishaq is talking about is a man made religion that Allah never sent

he is as dumb as those who are fooled by Satan to make them think that Allah sanctioned all the above lies as being part of His religion

well done Ibnishaq, you have been done by satan

Mabrook for the Kaas Ahmed. Ibnishaq, Ahmed is academically correct. Most of the things you mention as banned by islam are not banned in islamic scripture. Specially things like Radio and TV and music as we know it which were not present at the time.

However, in reality, a doctrine that strives to impose inequality and class separation between infidels and believers, men and women and arabs and ajams, a doctrine that strives to control every aspect of your waking and sleeping life, to the point where you start questioning entering the washroom with your left foot, why would such a doctrine stop at music?

We human often fall for the fallacy that when there is pain there Must be gain. That if I work hard in something, I Must get a recognition. If I invest my time or money in something, I Must get a reward. That is of course, Bull. Else no one would have ever lost money on bad investments. All of us would have constantly gained money and gained recognition for every little stupid nice thing we did.

Which is not the case.

So when someone get you to invest so much of your life to pray 5 time to fast 30 days, to wear uncomfortable clothing, to control who you love. The more you obsess, the more you invest, the more control they get over you. And never forget, whoever controls your dick and time, controls your vote and your voice and your wallet.

Ahmed invested all those years learning the koran. He is actually a pretty damn good interpreter of the koran. One of the best I ever met. However because of his investment, it would be next to impossible for him to drop that book in favor of reclaiming his humanity. So he goes around swearing at all other muslims, calling them mushriks, calling them ignorants, trying to get the mountain to come to him.


Salam baal

my reply to you and them is only one verse:

Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment.

[The Quran ; 42:21]

أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةُ الْفَصْلِ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (21)

-> See, ” أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ”, i.e. ” Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction?”, please tell me, how many Sheikhs, Mullahs, Imams and Muftis prescribed to us many things in the religion that Allah never sanctioned in His Quran?, can’t get clearer than this,

According to you. All of them. All the Sheikhs and Mullahs and Imams.

According to them. You. For trying to tell people not to follow and obey muhammad.

Somehow you think this one apology of a verse will excuse koran for telling us so many times that we should obey muhammad. How can they obey muhammad? When they do not even think it was muhammad who wrote the koran so what else is there to obey from him?

Answer: HIS SUNNA.

According to me. I have a problem with them. You, are not my problem. Quite the opposite, you are a murtad. In fact I worry more about you then from you. I can easily see myself one day bribing a filthy "wakeel niaba" to get your ass out of their "Takhshiba". I do not worry about you putting them in your "Takhshiba". So it is their belief that matters.

But yes, if you think you can paint all or most or even half the sheikhs and imams with this verse then why stop there? What credibility the koran has left?
AhmedBahgat

Stop acting desperate like those hadith worshippers mister baal

they are the ones who didn't obey Mohammed by wrtings other books next to the Quran

I;m the one who is fully obeying Mohammed and everything he said as stated in the Quran
Fathom

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

BMZ wrote:

The problem is that you are trying to learn from the internet sites and forums. Stop visiting them and instead read Qur'aan with full concentration and try to understand the message.


Excuse me? But could you explain something here? Like ...

WHAT THE HELL IS THE MESSAGE OF THE QUR'AN, ANYWAYS?

Every time I talk to one of you holier-than-thou Muslims each of you makes some totally screwed up explanation of whatever the hell it is you think the Qur'an actually says, and every time it's a bloody different explanation.

I have studied Islam for years, even as an x- Muslim, and I have yet to meet any Muslim, scholar or otherwise, who can actually agree with anyone else as to what the hell the Qur'an is talking about.

The reason is obvious; the damn book is a mumbo-jumbo pile of garbage that keeps weak-minded people such as yourself enslaved in ignorance. The Quran is totally useless in the modern world as far as promoting world peace, human rights, and proper education. It actually deprives potentially brilliant people from realizing their own potential, and constantly detriments the harmony of the rest of the world.

All we ever see in the news is how Islamic extremists killed another bunch of innocent people, and you sit there and try to tell someone to go figure out the Quran?

Listen man, why don't you call an interior decorator to come into your life and change the color of the sky in your screwed up world? Look; don't be trying to condemn someone to eternal ignorance by telling them to go figure out the message of the Quran when you yourself don't have a god damn clue what that crazy book is trying to say.

Ok?

Get a grip. It's the 21st century and Muslims are looking like idiotic throw-backs to the 6th century. Stop embarrassing humanity with your pathetically outdated belief system that's not worth the gun powder it would take to blow it to hell.

Get real.
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Stop acting desperate like those hadith worshippers mister baal

they are the ones who didn't obey Mohammed by wrtings other books next to the Quran

I;m the one who is fully obeying Mohammed and everything he said as stated in the Quran

So the book tells you to obey muhammad.
And what muhamad said is the book.
That is a nice point Ahmed but it some points do not gain more credibility beyond being a "nice point". We have to drop the "Nice points" when they do not match with reality.


33:21 - "uswa hasana" - a model to follow an excellent model of conduct (33:21).

4:80 - “he who obeys the Messenger [Muhammad], obeys Allah”

How are we supposed to follow the model of muhammad from the koran alone? Are we supposed to follow his model in talking to gibreel by any chance?

And other things missing from the koran, like how to pray, how to do the Haj, How to fast Ramadan, some Hudud was specified in koran but it does not cover most situations, how are we to cover them without koran?

On the pragmatic side, The koran is not enough to build a society or even a moral system. The koran is not even enough to be understood on its own.

94% of the reasons to enter Juhanam is for disbelieving in allah or disobeying Muhammad. 6% of the reasons are for moral failings, like theft or greed or murder.

Most of the message of the koran is just telling you to obey muhammad and believe in Allah, or else. That is the core message of the koran. Now you are asking muslims to play Catch-22 with you.

You want a book whose message is to obey muhamad.
And a Muhammad whose message is to obey the book.
Sorry Ahmed, that is not enough. Not enough to build a religion anyways.
AhmedBahgat

[quote="Baal"]
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Stop acting desperate like those hadith worshippers mister baal

they are the ones who didn't obey Mohammed by wrtings other books next to the Quran

I;m the one who is fully obeying Mohammed and everything he said as stated in the Quran



Baal wrote:
So the book tells you to obey muhammad.


Ecaxtly, The Quran orders me to obey him and I obey every word he was ordered to say according to the Quran

Baal wrote:
And what muhamad said is the book.



Mohammed said nothing, it was Allah talking all along and He told us many times that He ordered Mohammed to say, say, say ,say,

Baal wrote:
That is a nice point Ahmed but it some points do not gain more credibility beyond being a "nice point". We have to drop the "Nice points" when they do not match with reality.


sounds like you are going to slam dunk yourself, look pal, there is nothing nice about my point, my point is a fact as stated in the Quran, it’s you along with your pals the idol worshippers who need to live reality, let me see how you are using their non sense:

Baal wrote:
33:21 - "uswa hasana" - a model to follow an excellent model of conduct (33:21).


hahahaha, read this:

What you are saying using 33:21 is nothing but the same crap by  the idol worshippers say. The Quran never said exclusively  to take Mohammed alone as an example, this is the lame argument the idol worshippers use, they say the following verse clearly suggest to take Mohammed through the man made hadith as an example:

Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent example, for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

[The Quran ; 33:21]

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا (21)

-> See what 33:21 says: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent example, and this is for anyone who: for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day

But they totally missed the following verses that tell us to take far more than the prophet alone as excellent examples:

4: There is for you an excellent example  in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship other than Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone: But not when Abraham said to his father: I will pray for forgiveness for thee, though I have no power (to get) aught on thy behalf from Allah. (They prayed): Our Lord! in Thee do we trust, and to Thee do we turn in repentance: to Thee is (our) Final Goal.

6: Certainly there is for you in them a good example, for him who fears Allah and the last day; and whoever turns back, then surely Allah is the Self-sufficient, the Praised.

[The Quran ; 60:4&6]

قَدْ كَانَتْ لَكُمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ فِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ إِذْ قَالُوا لِقَوْمِهِمْ إِنَّا بُرَءَاؤاْ مِنكُمْ وَمِمَّا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ كَفَرْنَا بِكُمْ وَبَدَا بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ الْعَدَاوَةُ وَالْبَغْضَاء أَبَدًا حَتَّى تُؤْمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَحْدَهُ إِلَّا قَوْلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ لِأَبِيهِ لَأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ وَمَا أَمْلِكُ لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن شَيْءٍ رَّبَّنَا عَلَيْكَ تَوَكَّلْنَا وَإِلَيْكَ أَنَبْنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ (4)
لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِيهِمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْغَنِيُّ الْحَمِيدُ (6)

-> See who else is an excellent example to us: قَدْ كَانَتْ لَكُمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ فِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ There is for you an excellent example  in Abraham and those with him,, Ibrahim and those who are with him, not just Ibrahim but those with him, this is because they refused to be Mushrikoon and worshipping others other than Allah, they thought by worshipping stones, it will get them closer to Allah, for me this is the exact same with those who idol worship Mohammed by even pissing like him, ironically my rejection to those fellow Muslims actions is the exact same rejection of Ibrahim and those with him who refused to worship anyone else but Allah : "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship other than Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone", AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I TELL MY FELLOW Muslims, i.e. I’m taking Ibrahim and those with him as an excellent example according to hat we were told that he said in the Qiran, see how taking them as an example was stressed again in 60:6 Certainly there is for you in them a good example, for him who fears Allah and the last day; and whoever turns back, then surely Allah is the Self-sufficient, the Praised. SAME WORD SAID ABOUT MOHAMMED IN 33:21, i.e. we should take Mohammed and Ibrahim and those with Ibrahim as Iswah hasnah through what we were told about them in the Quran.

For me I take all those prophets and many believers as excellent examples, but only on the things that are qualified and confirmed by the Quran, like Salat for example, however in the way I think, it is going to be myself alone to be taken as an example by myself, I don’t need others to think for me and work out things in my religion.

Baal wrote:
4:80 - “he who obeys the Messenger [Muhammad], obeys Allah”


I’m the one who is obeying Mohammed word for word as stated in the Quran, they are the ones who don’t obey Allah word for word as stated in the Quran nor they obey Mohammed sayings as stated in their hadith

Baal wrote:
How are we supposed to follow the model of muhammad from the koran alone?


through Qul, Qul, Qul, Qul, Qul, Qul,

exactly as we should take Ibrahim and those with him as great examples  of those who stood against the shirk as stated in 60:4&6

Baal wrote:
Are we supposed to follow his model in talking to gibreel by any chance?


this question is for the idol worshippers not me

Dismissed

Baal wrote:
And other things missing from the koran, like how to pray, how to do the Haj, How to fast Ramadan, some Hudud was specified in koran but it does not cover most situations, how are we to cover them without koran?


holy carp, I just replied to a goon on ffi regarding the same crap, hold on let me copy it in here:


Searcher wrote:
Like how can you know how to pray without the Hadith?


Idiot, you know nothing about this webn site, it seems you only read the first line of their crap regarding their weapons against the Quran only Muslims, the tom and jerry argument, how I pray?

hahahahahahah

look kid, I pary like the prophet prayed, this is because the way he prayed was transmitted via the word of mouth, in fact there is no hadith that teaches us how to pray in full, i learnt how to pray using the word of mouth from my parents and my teachers, never read it in a book, what they have in their hadith books however is confuising bits and pieces of hearsay,and even if I invistigate such hearsay regarding the prayer, I'm happy to accept most of it because most of it do not contradict the Quran, as well the prayer is mentioned hundreds of times in the Quran, i.e. those hadith about salat (prayer) can be confirmed using the Quran, remember what I told ya that i believe in:

I believe in anything that is qualified by the Quran and because the prayer is qualified by the Quran then if the hadith that is talking about it pass the common sense , I will be happy to accept its teaching

now, that does not mean that I accept every hadith about the salat, again if it does not pass the Quran and the common sense then the hadith has no place but the rubbish bin, let me give a confused idiot like ya an example:

the hadith about the Salat being negotiated from 50 salat per day to 5 per day, such hadith is nothing but lies, and it must be dismissed, see how I dismissed it despite it talks about the Salat (prayer), this is because the Quran told us tens of times that Allah does not change His words, as well it told us that Allah does not put a burden on any soul but what it can bear  it, therefore such hadith about the prayer failed in two aspects:

1) It shows that Allah put a burden on the believers while they can't take it, in clear violation to the Quran

2) It shows that Allah changed His words at least 5 times, and again in clear violation to the Quran

therefore such hadith about the prayer has to be dismissed in the rubbish bin

what else from such web site you want me to slam dunk mister confused?

Baal wrote:
On the pragmatic side, The koran is not enough to build a society or even a moral system. The koran is not even enough to be understood on its own.


Of course for a kafir or an idol worshipper, the above is what they have to say, for me I have to dismiss it though

Baal wrote:
94% of the reasons to enter Juhanam is for disbelieving in allah or disobeying Muhammad. 6% of the reasons are for moral failings, like theft or greed or murder.


stop talking crap, your statistics are dismissed

Baal wrote:
Most of the message of the koran is just telling you to obey muhammad and believe in Allah, or else. That is the core message of the koran. Now you are asking muslims to play Catch-22 with you.

yeh let’s play catch 22:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا (64)
And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they dealt unjustly with themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah, and the messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Relenting, Merciful.
[Al Quran ; 4:64]
-> See: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّه , And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission , i.e. all messengers should be obeyed regarding the message they brough in from Allah, not regarding what the people say about them. and in such case we will be obeying the people who spewed lies about them not really obeying the messengers as the Quran told us

Baal wrote:
You want a book whose message is to obey muhamad.
And a Muhammad whose message is to obey the book.
Sorry Ahmed, that is not enough. Not enough to build a religion anyways.


It seems you don’t even understand how obeying another person should work, to be honest no time to waste with your silly rants
HomoErectus

AhmedBahgat wrote:


"We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship other than Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone", AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I TELL MY FELLOW Muslims




Of course, you realize that this is just another command for muslims to " HATE forever" - everybody who is not a muslim, submitting to your "god" !

"ENMITY forever" and "rejection" - for all who do not follow the commands of this desert god !

And its exactly THIS what you are telling your brothers in faith [assumptions] !

Applause !

I'm still suprised by the impertinence of muslims to stand up and claim "ours is the god, we have the truth" - all bow down to "our" god !

Boy, am I glad to be a non-believer !


Quote:

It seems you don’t even understand how obeying another person should work,



Why "obey" another person ?

This world is not a military camp !

A person can maybe try to CONVINCE me, to go along...

Commands are counterproductive !

.
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:

I believe in anything that is qualified by the Quran and because the prayer is qualified by the Quran then if the hadith that is talking about it pass the common sense , I will be happy to accept its teaching

now, that does not mean that I accept every hadith about the salat, again if it does not pass the Quran and the common sense then the hadith has no place but the rubbish bin, let me give a confused idiot like ya an example:

the hadith about the Salat being negotiated from 50 salat per day to 5 per day, such hadith is nothing but lies, and it must be dismissed, see how I dismissed it despite it talks about the Salat (prayer), this is because the Quran told us tens of times that Allah does not change His words, as well it told us that Allah does not put a burden on any soul but what it can bear  it, therefore such hadith about the prayer failed in two aspects:

All you are doing is applying the "Science of the Hadith". You are disseminating which hadith is true according to some rules. You use the example of the prayer but you also know there is Hundreds of issues other then prayer, that still have to be resolved with your "Science of Hadith". What new do you bring to the table? You want a Nobel Price for being a stellar Scientist?

AhmedBahgat wrote:

what else from such web site you want me to slam dunk mister confused?

Show me that web site, it will probably make my job even easier.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
On the pragmatic side, The koran is not enough to build a society or even a moral system. The koran is not even enough to be understood on its own.


Of course for a kafir or an idol worshipper, the above is what they have to say, for me I have to dismiss it though

You just applied the Science of the Hadith last paragraph just to find out how you pray.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
94% of the reasons to enter Juhanam is for disbelieving in allah or disobeying Muhammad. 6% of the reasons are for moral failings, like theft or greed or murder.


stop talking crap, your statistics are dismissed

My Statistic? Why is it my statistic, it is the statistic of the koran.

Possibly you never sat down and counted, but surely it comes at no surprise to you that almost every time the koran talks about entering hell, it is talking about disbelieving and disobeying. Maybe you thought it was 70% or 80%. Maybe 94% seems too high to you, but surely it is not a surprise to you.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
Most of the message of the koran is just telling you to obey muhammad and believe in Allah, or else. That is the core message of the koran. Now you are asking muslims to play Catch-22 with you.

yeh let’s play catch 22:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا (64)
And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they dealt unjustly with themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah, and the messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Relenting, Merciful.
[Al Quran ; 4:64]
-> See: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّه , And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission , i.e. all messengers should be obeyed regarding the message they brough in from Allah, not regarding what the people say about them. and in such case we will be obeying the people who spewed lies about them not really obeying the messengers as the Quran told us

Sorry, I have to dismiss it. This is still Muhammad or koran telling us that we have to obey muhammad because he is telling us about a book which is telling us to obey muhammad.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
You want a book whose message is to obey muhamad.
And a Muhammad whose message is to obey the book.
Sorry Ahmed, that is not enough. Not enough to build a religion anyways.


It seems you don’t even understand how obeying another person should work, to be honest no time to waste with your silly rants

As I said, nice point, claiming that obeying muhammad only applies to obeying the book (or sayings) put forward by muhammad. But the exclusion you make has no basis. It has no basis in the religion and it has a lot less basis in real life.

You still can not pray or do haj or punish most (almost all) crimes or do a lot of other things without consulting the hadith.
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:

I believe in anything that is qualified by the Quran and because the prayer is qualified by the Quran then if the hadith that is talking about it pass the common sense , I will be happy to accept its teaching

now, that does not mean that I accept every hadith about the salat, again if it does not pass the Quran and the common sense then the hadith has no place but the rubbish bin, let me give a confused idiot like ya an example:

the hadith about the Salat being negotiated from 50 salat per day to 5 per day, such hadith is nothing but lies, and it must be dismissed, see how I dismissed it despite it talks about the Salat (prayer), this is because the Quran told us tens of times that Allah does not change His words, as well it told us that Allah does not put a burden on any soul but what it can bear  it, therefore such hadith about the prayer failed in two aspects:

All you are doing is applying the "Science of the Hadith". You are disseminating which hadith is true according to some rules. You use the example of the prayer but you also know there is Hundreds of issues other then prayer, that still have to be resolved with your "Science of Hadith". What new do you bring to the table? You want a Nobel Price for being a stellar Scientist?

AhmedBahgat wrote:

what else from such web site you want me to slam dunk mister confused?

Show me that web site, it will probably make my job even easier.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
On the pragmatic side, The koran is not enough to build a society or even a moral system. The koran is not even enough to be understood on its own.


Of course for a kafir or an idol worshipper, the above is what they have to say, for me I have to dismiss it though

You just applied the Science of the Hadith last paragraph just to find out how you pray.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
94% of the reasons to enter Juhanam is for disbelieving in allah or disobeying Muhammad. 6% of the reasons are for moral failings, like theft or greed or murder.


stop talking crap, your statistics are dismissed

My Statistic? Why is it my statistic, it is the statistic of the koran.

Possibly you never sat down and counted, but surely it comes at no surprise to you that almost every time the koran talks about entering hell, it is talking about disbelieving and disobeying. Maybe you thought it was 70% or 80%. Maybe 94% seems too high to you, but surely it is not a surprise to you.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
Most of the message of the koran is just telling you to obey muhammad and believe in Allah, or else. That is the core message of the koran. Now you are asking muslims to play Catch-22 with you.

yeh let’s play catch 22:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا (64)
And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they dealt unjustly with themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah, and the messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Relenting, Merciful.
[Al Quran ; 4:64]
-> See: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّه , And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission , i.e. all messengers should be obeyed regarding the message they brough in from Allah, not regarding what the people say about them. and in such case we will be obeying the people who spewed lies about them not really obeying the messengers as the Quran told us

Sorry, I have to dismiss it. This is still Muhammad or koran telling us that we have to obey muhammad because he is telling us about a book which is telling us to obey muhammad.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
You want a book whose message is to obey muhamad.
And a Muhammad whose message is to obey the book.
Sorry Ahmed, that is not enough. Not enough to build a religion anyways.


It seems you don’t even understand how obeying another person should work, to be honest no time to waste with your silly rants

As I said, nice point, claiming that obeying muhammad only applies to obeying the book (or sayings) put forward by muhammad. But the exclusion you make has no basis. It has no basis in the religion and it has a lot less basis in real life.

You still can not pray or do haj or punish most (almost all) crimes or do a lot of other things without consulting the hadith.


Ignorant baal

there is no such thing called the science of hadith, this is just a plain BS, I don't even care who are the narrators are

what I'm doing is qualifying everything in the religion using the Quran

the rest of your crap of shirk has to be dismissed
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:

I believe in anything that is qualified by the Quran and because the prayer is qualified by the Quran then if the hadith that is talking about it pass the common sense , I will be happy to accept its teaching

now, that does not mean that I accept every hadith about the salat, again if it does not pass the Quran and the common sense then the hadith has no place but the rubbish bin, let me give a confused idiot like ya an example:

the hadith about the Salat being negotiated from 50 salat per day to 5 per day, such hadith is nothing but lies, and it must be dismissed, see how I dismissed it despite it talks about the Salat (prayer), this is because the Quran told us tens of times that Allah does not change His words, as well it told us that Allah does not put a burden on any soul but what it can bear  it, therefore such hadith about the prayer failed in two aspects:

All you are doing is applying the "Science of the Hadith". You are disseminating which hadith is true according to some rules. You use the example of the prayer but you also know there is Hundreds of issues other then prayer, that still have to be resolved with your "Science of Hadith". What new do you bring to the table? You want a Nobel Price for being a stellar Scientist?

AhmedBahgat wrote:

what else from such web site you want me to slam dunk mister confused?

Show me that web site, it will probably make my job even easier.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
On the pragmatic side, The koran is not enough to build a society or even a moral system. The koran is not even enough to be understood on its own.


Of course for a kafir or an idol worshipper, the above is what they have to say, for me I have to dismiss it though

You just applied the Science of the Hadith last paragraph just to find out how you pray.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
94% of the reasons to enter Juhanam is for disbelieving in allah or disobeying Muhammad. 6% of the reasons are for moral failings, like theft or greed or murder.


stop talking crap, your statistics are dismissed

My Statistic? Why is it my statistic, it is the statistic of the koran.

Possibly you never sat down and counted, but surely it comes at no surprise to you that almost every time the koran talks about entering hell, it is talking about disbelieving and disobeying. Maybe you thought it was 70% or 80%. Maybe 94% seems too high to you, but surely it is not a surprise to you.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
Most of the message of the koran is just telling you to obey muhammad and believe in Allah, or else. That is the core message of the koran. Now you are asking muslims to play Catch-22 with you.

yeh let’s play catch 22:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا (64)
And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they dealt unjustly with themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah, and the messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Relenting, Merciful.
[Al Quran ; 4:64]
-> See: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّه , And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission , i.e. all messengers should be obeyed regarding the message they brough in from Allah, not regarding what the people say about them. and in such case we will be obeying the people who spewed lies about them not really obeying the messengers as the Quran told us

Sorry, I have to dismiss it. This is still Muhammad or koran telling us that we have to obey muhammad because he is telling us about a book which is telling us to obey muhammad.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
You want a book whose message is to obey muhamad.
And a Muhammad whose message is to obey the book.
Sorry Ahmed, that is not enough. Not enough to build a religion anyways.


It seems you don’t even understand how obeying another person should work, to be honest no time to waste with your silly rants

As I said, nice point, claiming that obeying muhammad only applies to obeying the book (or sayings) put forward by muhammad. But the exclusion you make has no basis. It has no basis in the religion and it has a lot less basis in real life.

You still can not pray or do haj or punish most (almost all) crimes or do a lot of other things without consulting the hadith.


Ignorant baal

there is no such thing called the science of hadith, this is just a plain BS, I don't even care who are the narrators are

what I'm doing is qualifying everything in the religion using the Quran

the rest of your crap of shirk has to be dismissed

I was not asking for your opinion about the 'science of hadith'. I was informing you that YOU did perform the "science of hadith" when you explained to me how you learned about how to pray.

Maybe you give it a different name to avoid going against your personal philosophy. But to me and to 1 billion muslims, you were performing an admirable job applying rules, to determine which hadith to believe and which hadith not to believe.

So Thank you Ahmed for that wonderful tutorial about the 'science of hadith'. I really appreciated it.

Now if you can explain to me, how did you learn about how to fast Ramadan? "Teach me" how you were able to disseminate how to fast from the hadith. I am all ears.
AhmedBahgat

Baal wrote:
I was not asking for your opinion about the 'science of hadith'.



LOL, well, if you mention the scinece of hadith then you must be a fool who got fooled so easily, again this is not an opinion about the science of hadith, THIS IS A FUKIN FACT THAT THE SCIENCE OF HADITH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SCIENCE

Baal wrote:
I was informing you that YOU did perform the "science of hadith" when you explained to me how you learned about how to pray.


BS, I never used such non sense, it seems you misunderstood hat I said about the salat, here it is again, the salat is learnt via the word of mouth, there was never a need for a book to leran it, it is inherited from the prophet days, as well the Quran talked about salat hundreds of times

Baal wrote:
Maybe you give it a different name to avoid going against your personal philosophy.


well, you are nothing but a sihful thinking as most kafors bound to hell

Baal wrote:
But to me and to 1 billion muslims, you were performing an admirable job applying rules, to determine which hadith to believe and which hadith not to believe.


well, what I did, is easy for a child to understand and do, simply, if te hadith contradict the Quran or does not teach us anything regarding the religion then it has to be dismissed in the rubbish bin

Baal wrote:
So Thank you Ahmed for that wonderful tutorial about the 'science of hadith'. I really appreciated it.



please stop acting funny, here is the deal, why don't you explain to me what is the science of hadith?

Baal wrote:
Now if you can explain to me, how did you learn about how to fast Ramadan? "Teach me" how you were able to disseminate how to fast from the hadith. I am all ears.


hmmm, same as salat, it is via the word of mouth the transferred between our parents over the years, there is no need for any books to learn how to pray, fast ot perform hajj, i.e. I never learnt salat, fast of hajj from the current hadith books, how about you show me some hadith that teach us in full the following:

1) how to pray
2) how to fast
3) how to do hajj
BMZ

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

Fathom wrote:
Excuse me? But could you explain something here? Like ...

WHAT THE HELL IS THE MESSAGE OF THE QUR'AN, ANYWAYS?


Once I had accidently run into a Thai student at Chulalongkorn University, Bangkok and I said,"Excuse me." And he replied, :"No." lol.

I see an extremely perturbed and frustrated person in you.

The message of Qur'aan is: There is only One God, the LORD Almighty and the name in Arabic is Allah. Besides Allah, there is no other God or god or any deity. Qur'aan declares Jesus to be a slave of God like other men and decalres him to be an ordinary human like others. It tells people to be the most obedient slaves of God like he prophets. Allah, the God Almighty chose men to be prophets. Having said that, Qur'aan wants people to be righteous and good.

The essence of the message is, "Love and worship only your Lord God Almighty with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." Also, there will be life after death and there will be a Judgement Day and only Allah will judge. In short, Imaan in Allah, the Unseen is the most important point.


Fathom wrote:
Every time I talk to one of you holier-than-thou Muslims each of you makes some totally screwed up explanation of whatever the hell it is you think the Qur'an actually says, and every time it's a bloody different explanation.


I have never claimed to be a very holy Muslim. But it is no shame either, if I am. Pray tell me what the "totally screwed up" explanations were?  Laughing

I just had an exchange on Luke's most famous verse, where Jesus told his followers to buy swords, with some hardcore Christians and they put their spin on it but you can catch Jesus for demanding that swords be bought. The point is that one can explain to make one understand. You will never find Qur'aan telling people to buy swords.


Fathom wrote:
I have studied Islam for years, even as an x- Muslim, and I have yet to meet any Muslim, scholar or otherwise, who can actually agree with anyone else as to what the hell the Qur'an is talking about.


That is why you are an ex-Muslim because neither you fully understood Qur'aan nor did you get it's message. If you had, you would have remained in. In your own words, you have confirmed it yourself. lol! So, when you read something from those who know, you will naturally have negative thoughts, which is quite normal for a person who never could understand the Scripture.

Fathom wrote:
The reason is obvious; the damn book is a mumbo-jumbo pile of garbage that keeps weak-minded people such as yourself enslaved in ignorance. The Quran is totally useless in the modern world as far as promoting world peace, human rights, and proper education. It actually deprives potentially brilliant people from realizing their own potential, and constantly detriments the harmony of the rest of the world.

All we ever see in the news is how Islamic extremists killed another bunch of innocent people, and you sit there and try to tell someone to go figure out the Quran?


This is where, I would have to consider you among the ranks of ignorants or a persons practising  double standards. You believe in mixing Islam and Qur'aan with politics. I do not buy that.

Fathom wrote:
Listen man, why don't you call an interior decorator to come into your life and change the color of the sky in your screwed up world? Look; don't be trying to condemn someone to eternal ignorance by telling them to go figure out the message of the Quran when you yourself don't have a god damn clue what that crazy book is trying to say.

Ok?

Get a grip. It's the 21st century and Muslims are looking like idiotic throw-backs to the 6th century. Stop embarrassing humanity with your pathetically outdated belief system that's not worth the gun powder it would take to blow it to hell.

Get real.


You appear to be a very tired and frustrated person. I pity you. Go, get some rest.

BMZ
Baal

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
I was not asking for your opinion about the 'science of hadith'.



LOL, well, if you mention the scinece of hadith then you must be a fool who got fooled so easily, again this is not an opinion about the science of hadith, THIS IS A FUKIN FACT THAT THE SCIENCE OF HADITH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SCIENCE

Welcome to the club Ahmed. Somehow the total lack of inventions, of innovation, of interesting literally work, or art in the muslim world for the last 14 centuries should have clued me in that islam has nothing to do with Science.

I only call it "Science of Hadith" as a satire. It is the description muslims use to describe the "process" that muslims use, to assuage their cognitive dissonance about the origins of islam.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
I was informing you that YOU did perform the "science of hadith" when you explained to me how you learned about how to pray.


BS, I never used such non sense, it seems you misunderstood hat I said about the salat, here it is again, the salat is learnt via the word of mouth, there was never a need for a book to leran it, it is inherited from the prophet days, as well the Quran talked about salat hundreds of times

That is hadith Ahmed. Just because "you" do not want to commit it to paper, it does not make it any less valid.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
Maybe you give it a different name to avoid going against your personal philosophy.


well, you are nothing but a sihful thinking as most kafors bound to hell

Threatening with hell does not work with this one.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
But to me and to 1 billion muslims, you were performing an admirable job applying rules, to determine which hadith to believe and which hadith not to believe.


well, what I did, is easy for a child to understand and do, simply, if te hadith contradict the Quran or does not teach us anything regarding the religion then it has to be dismissed in the rubbish bin

Masha'allah. That *is* the first rule of the "Science of Hadith". I will be happy to inform you that almost ALL Sahih Hadith and Strong Hadith does *FOLLOW* the rule you just wrote.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
So Thank you Ahmed for that wonderful tutorial about the 'science of hadith'. I really appreciated it.


please stop acting funny, here is the deal, why don't you explain to me what is the science of hadith?

You just stated the first (and most important) rule of the Science of Hadith. I did not need to teach it to you.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Baal wrote:
Now if you can explain to me, how did you learn about how to fast Ramadan? "Teach me" how you were able to disseminate how to fast from the hadith. I am all ears.


hmmm, same as salat, it is via the word of mouth the transferred between our parents over the years, there is no need for any books to learn how to pray, fast ot perform hajj, i.e. I never learnt salat, fast of hajj from the current hadith books, how about you show me some hadith that teach us in full the following:

1) how to pray
2) how to fast
3) how to do hajj

If it is written down after being passed from father to son, then it is a hadith. There is plenty of hadith about how to perform those earthly rituals, specially the last one that will guarantee the Arab opulence at the expense of the umma.
Fathom

Re: WHAT THE F***K?

BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Excuse me? But could you explain something here? Like ...

WHAT THE HELL IS THE MESSAGE OF THE QUR'AN, ANYWAYS?


Once I had accidently run into a Thai student at Chulalongkorn University, Bangkok and I said,"Excuse me." And he replied, :"No." lol.

I see an extremely perturbed and frustrated person in you.

The message of Qur'aan is: There is only One God, the LORD Almighty and the name in Arabic is Allah. Besides Allah, there is no other God or god or any deity. Qur'aan declares Jesus to be a slave of God like other men and decalres him to be an ordinary human like others. It tells people to be the most obedient slaves of God like he prophets. Allah, the God Almighty chose men to be prophets. Having said that, Qur'aan wants people to be righteous and good.

The essence of the message is, "Love and worship only your Lord God Almighty with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." Also, there will be life after death and there will be a Judgement Day and only Allah will judge. In short, Imaan in Allah, the Unseen is the most important point.


So ... if that's the message of the Quran, then what good is the rest of it? What good is, "Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them?" What good is Muhammad's faulty math in regards to the splitting up of the inheritances? What's the use of "beat your wives?"

If your understanding of the message is just what you wrote here, then why bother adhering to the rest of the Quran? Why not just rip out the rest of the pages and burn them? What good are they if they don't have the message of the Quran?


BMZ wrote:

Fathom wrote:
Every time I talk to one of you holier-than-thou Muslims each of you makes some totally screwed up explanation of whatever the hell it is you think the Qur'an actually says, and every time it's a bloody different explanation.


I have never claimed to be a very holy Muslim. But it is no shame either, if I am. Pray tell me what the "totally screwed up" explanations were?  Laughing


How about beginning with the one you gave me, and answering all of my questions? It did not go unnoticed that your explanation regarding Jesus is extremely important to Muslims. But tell me, why is the Quran's verses regarding Jesus so important?

How about if I tell you why? How about I tell you that the Quran and Muslims attempt to reduce the importance of the Christian Jesus only to smite the Christian faith? Have you ever looked at the Islamic Creed closely? In chapter 112 of the Quran, God orders Muhammad through revelation to say this Chapter as an answer when a few Christian priests came to visit him and inquire about what he was preaching:

In the Name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful

1. Say: "He is Allah, the only One,
2. "Allah, the Everlasting.
3. "He did not beget and is not begotten,
4:"And none is His equal."

Line # 1 is a strike against the Christian Trinity.
Line # 3 is a strike against the Christian belief in Jesus being the son of God and being God.
Line # 4 is a strike against the Christian belief in the Trinity.

Just like the rest of the Quran, it spews hatred against the faith of other religions, and teaches Muslims to HATE. After all, why else do you think the Quran teaches you to slay the disbelievers wherever you find them? The message of the Quran is simple:

HAVE 0% RESPECT AND TOLERANCE FOR ANYONE ELSE'S RELIGION.

The Quran is actually an extremely anti-Christ book. It attacks every last one of the following 5 Christian tenants:

1. Jesus is the Son of God.
2. Jesus is God.
3. The Holy Trinity.
4. Jesus was begotten by God.
5. Jesus was crucified and died on the cross for your sins.

The Quran denies all of the above, and all of the above are the 5 cornerstones of the Christian religion. They are the only cornerstones of the Christian religion, and the Quran teaches Muslims that all the cornerstones of the Christian faith are lies.

If that isn't anti-Christ, would you like to explain to me what is? If that doesn't demonstrate the epitome of hatred that Islam has for Christianity, then what does? You see, the message of the Quran doesn't teach Muslims anything good, it only teaches Muslims to berate other faiths, Christianity specifically. I can pick several chapters at random and find some verses which strike out against the 5 tenants of Christianity.

Also, do you want to know why so many Muslims have a different understanding of the message of the Quran? Because every last one of them is taught to believe that the Torah and Gospel should not be read, and it is for a 100% fact that if you have not read the Torah and Gospel then you have absolutely NO hope whatsoever of ever understanding the Quran. The Quran stole so much information from the Torah and Gospel, but it did not put in the whole story. Therefore, Muslims will read verses concerning some Torah or Gospel characters and completely misunderstand those verse all because they never read the whole story in the Torah or Gospel. I have seen this so many times it's laughable.

So why do you need an agnostic like me to have to tell you what is so blatantly obvious that only a fool would deny it? What are you going to do now? Are you going to deny that the Quran borrowed from other religions when it's been proven conclusively that it did?

Will you be that fool whom I described? What kind of religion teaches you to deny the truth? When you are forced into such a state of fear whereas you have no choice but to deny the truth, then what the hell does that tell you about your religion, genius?


WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN BEATEN DOWN AND WHIPPED BY A MERE BOOK TO SUCH A POINT THAT YOU MUST COWER AWAY FROM THE OBVIOUS TRUTH, THEN DON'T YOU THINK YOU JUST MIGHT LOOK LIKE HALF A MAN TO THE REST OF THE WORLD?

You Muslims are totally enslaved by fear. You do not worship this Allah because you love him, but because you're terrified of him. You are terrified by a few words in an ancient book which does nothing but berate other religions and spew hatred upon anyone who does not believe what you believe.

Muslims are the most cowardly people I have ever met. Being completely controlled by fear because of a few words in a book is the most cowardly thing I have ever witnessed. When a few words in an old book instill in you intolerance and hatred, otherwise you'll go to hell, then tell me Einstein, what's wrong with this picture?

Any god which teaches you intolerance and hatred is no god whatsoever. That kind of god is satanic.

Get a grip and get out while you're still half a man. Join the human race and find out what it's like to live in peace with all of mankind. Stop insulting yourself by believing in old books which have been proven false so many times it's beyond question.

Stop shaming the human race with your Islam. Don't you have any dignity?


BMZ wrote:
 I just had an exchange on Luke's most famous verse, where Jesus told his followers to buy swords, with some hardcore Christians and they put their spin on it but you can catch Jesus for demanding that swords be bought. The point is that one can explain to make one understand. You will never find Qur'aan telling people to buy swords.


Do you see now what the Quran teaches you? Look at your frame of mind; what do you see? Do you see what I see? Do you see how Islam teaches you to berate other faiths and their books? I mean, all you're saying to me so far is all anti-Christ stuff.

Do you get it yet?


BMZ wrote:

Fathom wrote:
I have studied Islam for years, even as an x- Muslim, and I have yet to meet any Muslim, scholar or otherwise, who can actually agree with anyone else as to what the hell the Qur'an is talking about.


That is why you are an ex-Muslim because neither you fully understood Qur'aan nor did you get it's message. If you had, you would have remained in. In your own words, you have confirmed it yourself. lol! So, when you read something from those who know, you will naturally have negative thoughts, which is quite normal for a person who never could understand the Scripture.


I understood the Quran enough to know it's a crock of bullsh!t. You keep telling me that I will have negative doubts if I read something from someone who knows. Well dude, I read plenty from plenty who claim to know, and all of them disagreed with each other so maybe you can explain to me which one "knows?"

And then you try to tell me my confusion is quite normal for someone who could never understand scripture? How does me learning that the scholars all disagree with each other constitute me as being the one who is confused? When the best Muslim scholars in the world disagree with each other, then who the hell is confused?

It certainly isn't me who is confused; not when I can find dozens of scholars adamantly disagreeing with each other as to the meaning of the Quran, and of hundreds of verses. It isn't me who is confused when I see Islamics cutting off the heads of innocent people while screaming Allah Akbar. It isn't me who is confused when Muslims tie bombs around the bodies of their sons and daughters and tell them to go blow themselves up, while standing right behind them some crazed Islamic scholar attempts to convince me that Islam is peace.

How sure are you that I am confused? Is Islam peace, or is it about blowing people up? Should I hand a peace offering over to someone, or hand their severed heads over to their relatives? Should I love my wife, or should I beat the hell out of her? Should I lovingly raise children to be fine upstanding adults, or should I have sex with a child like Muhammad did?

No. No, I am not confused, and do you want to know why?

Because I'm not a Muslim.


BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
The reason is obvious; the damn book is a mumbo-jumbo pile of garbage that keeps weak-minded people such as yourself enslaved in ignorance. The Quran is totally useless in the modern world as far as promoting world peace, human rights, and proper education. It actually deprives potentially brilliant people from realizing their own potential, and constantly detriments the harmony of the rest of the world.

All we ever see in the news is how Islamic extremists killed another bunch of innocent people, and you sit there and try to tell someone to go figure out the Quran?


This is where, I would have to consider you among the ranks of ignorants or a persons practising  double standards. You believe in mixing Islam and Qur'aan with politics. I do not buy that.


Are you out of your mind? You think I want Islam mixed up with Politics? I don't want Islam at ALL, let alone have it mixed up with politics. If you don't want Islam mixed up with politics, then denounce Sharia Law right here and right now.

Can you do that? I bet you can't. And the reason is because you are a Muslim coward. You cower in the corner like a beaten dog all because of a few words in an old book.

Dude ... get serious. Stop embarrassing yourself.


BMZ wrote:

Fathom wrote:
Listen man, why don't you call an interior decorator to come into your life and change the color of the sky in your screwed up world? Look; don't be trying to condemn someone to eternal ignorance by telling them to go figure out the message of the Quran when you yourself don't have a god damn clue what that crazy book is trying to say.

Ok?

Get a grip. It's the 21st century and Muslims are looking like idiotic throw-backs to the 6th century. Stop embarrassing humanity with your pathetically outdated belief system that's not worth the gun powder it would take to blow it to hell.

Get real.


You appear to be a very tired and frustrated person. I pity you. Go, get some rest.

BMZ


I'll never tire of the mission to rid the world of the hatred and intolerance which Islam teaches. There is no frustration with me whatsoever, because I understand your Islamic frame of mind completely. I understand how controlled you actually are; how you are in such a constant state of fear you no longer even realize it.

Your mind has been completely whipped into total submission through fear and intimidation from a few words in an old book.

And you pity me?

Au contraire!
BMZ

Hello, Fathom

Where all all these pent-up emotions coming from my friend? I assumed this was a place for genial conversation. Would you like to talk about your feelings? I could help, you know.

Please post your questions in order so that I can address one by one. You sound as if you just returned from a mass, which has consumed you.

You have been an ex-Muslim and before that an ex-Christian, so you should show no sympathy for Christianity and should not feel bad, when Christainity is criticised.

However, I will try to respond to a few points.

BMZ
AhmedBahgat

Re: Hello, Fathom

BMZ wrote:
Where all all these pent-up emotions coming from my friend? I assumed this was a place for genial conversation. Would you like to talk about your feelings? I could help, you know.

Please post your questions in order so that I can address one by one. You sound as if you just returned from a mass, which has consumed you.

You have been an ex-Muslim and before that an ex-Christian, so you should show no sympathy for Christianity and should not feel bad, when Christainity is criticised.

However, I will try to respond to a few points.

BMZ



I guess he want to be an ex-all

cheers
HomoErectus

Well, at least he does not follow any HOAX anymore - a "win-win" situation ! Very Happy

While you are enjoying to sit chained in a dark dungeon... Crying or Very sad
.
Fathom

Re: Hello, Fathom

BMZ wrote:
Where all all these pent-up emotions coming from my friend? I assumed this was a place for genial conversation. Would you like to talk about your feelings? I could help, you know.

Please post your questions in order so that I can address one by one. You sound as if you just returned from a mass, which has consumed you.

You have been an ex-Muslim and before that an ex-Christian, so you should show no sympathy for Christianity and should not feel bad, when Christainity is criticised.

However, I will try to respond to a few points.

BMZ


Who says my emotions are "pent up?" What you are seeing from me is the plain truth; a truth which is completely ignored by every Muslim I have ever spoken to, including yourself.

Who says I feel bad when Christianity is criticized? Are you attempting to avoid the real issue and the point of my last post in which my point was clearly how the Quran teaches Muslims to deny all 5 of the most critical Christian tenants? Did you miss the boat when the gist of my statement was how the Quran teaches Muslims intolerance and hatred of other religions? Or is this just another laughable Muslim trademark whereas you will completely avoid every last one of my valid points?

Tell me genius, which one is it? Does that damaged Islamic mind of yours prevent you from understanding my points? Are you incapable of going over my last post and organizing the questions in order all by yourself, or do we need a team of your Islamic scholars to do what one little agnostic can do in 5 minutes?

Come one, let's see how well that damaged Islamic mind of yours actually works. Do you have the intellectual fortitude to actually respond to my points in my previous post, or should we just forget the whole thing and allow you to hang yourself out to dry like a typical "Muslim?"

Let's see it.
BMZ

Re: Hello, Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Where all all these pent-up emotions coming from my friend? I assumed this was a place for genial conversation. Would you like to talk about your feelings? I could help, you know.

Please post your questions in order so that I can address one by one. You sound as if you just returned from a mass, which has consumed you.

You have been an ex-Muslim and before that an ex-Christian, so you should show no sympathy for Christianity and should not feel bad, when Christainity is criticised.

However, I will try to respond to a few points.

BMZ


I guess he want to be an ex-all

cheers


I just wrote a very long reply to Fathom but lost it after I made a wrong click.  Sad

The key points, in my reply were:

I do not consider Christianity a religion at all. It is a runaway cult, which was made pleasant and palatable to get the Gentiles. No quality but just quantity. All it's basic tenets are fallacies and the five corners of the Pentagon are totally wrong. The structure cannot stand for ever and is already crumbling in Europe.

We do not find Jesus declaring himself any of the five tenets in his own words from the Day one of his mission.

Qur'aan is accused of stealing from the New T and the Old T. What is there to take from the New T? There is no Paul, no Matthew, no Mark, no Luke and no John in Qur'aan. Christians plagiarised the Jewish Holy Scriptures wholesale and wrote their Old T and forged it. If Qur'aan had 'stolen' most from the New T, then it would have 'stolen' the NewT God.  Not a single hocus pocus was taken from the mishmash of the gospels and the NewT. Laughing

Muslims are not forbidden to read the two Bibles. In fact Muslims read the Bibles more than the Christians. I have Jewish Holy Scriptures and quite a few Christain Bibles sitting on my shelf next to my computer.  Laughing

If an ex-Muslim like Fathom can hate Islam, Qur'aan and Muslims so much, why should he as an ex-Christian, after becoming an ex-Muslim, hate Islam, Qur'aan and the Muslims so much and feel bad when Christianity is criticised? Mind-boggling, isn't it? lol!

Salaams, Mate
BMZ  
Fathom

Re: Hello, Fathom

AhmedBahgat wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Where all all these pent-up emotions coming from my friend? I assumed this was a place for genial conversation. Would you like to talk about your feelings? I could help, you know.

Please post your questions in order so that I can address one by one. You sound as if you just returned from a mass, which has consumed you.

You have been an ex-Muslim and before that an ex-Christian, so you should show no sympathy for Christianity and should not feel bad, when Christainity is criticised.

However, I will try to respond to a few points.

BMZ



I guess he want to be an ex-all

cheers


Being an x-all is a hell of a lot better than being a prisoner to a few words in an old book written centuries ago in a time when men created gods out of thin air just because the population was uneducated enough to not know any better.

But you have no excuse today in the modern world. Education is available everywhere and the archaic belief in a god is ridiculed without measure. You're like a little kid who doesn't want the light shut off at night because he's afraid of the dark. That's exactly the way you, and all Muslims, are. You haven't got the guts to accept the fact that when you die you just simply cease to exist. No, but you are so scared of death that you must believe that one life isn't enough, so you need another one in heaven.

Get real. When not one single person on earth has EVER proven the existence of heaven, God, angels, etc, how the hell do you even justify your religion? With faith? Faith in what? Since nothing has ever been proven, then what kind of faith are you talking about? Are you trying to tell me I should have faith in something I cannot see, hear, touch, taste, smell, or detect in any way, or where no one has ever once proven it to exist?

What kind of faith is that when you have nothing proven to believe in?

Bloody stupid is what it is. Be a man for once in your life and stop screaming in the dark like that kid who's afraid when the lights go out.

Grow up. Get out of religion before it damages you more than it already has.
Fathom

Re: Hello, Fathom

BMZ wrote:

I do not consider Christianity a religion at all. It is a runaway cult, which was made pleasant and palatable to get the Gentiles. No quality but just quantity. All it's basic tenets are fallacies and the five corners of the Pentagon are totally wrong. The structure cannot stand for ever and is already crumbling in Europe.


And once again you have completely validated my point which stated how the Quran shows a complete and total lack of tolerance for other religions, and teaches this to Muslims such as yourself.

Nice going Muslim. Keep going, you're doing damn good!


BMZ wrote:
We do not find Jesus declaring himself any of the five tenets in his own words from the Day one of his mission.


Really? Well here's one just right off the top of my head, right from the mouth of Jesus himself:  

Joh 10:35-36:  "If He called those as 'gods' with whom the Word of God was, and that Scripture cannot be broken,  why do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I say that I am the Son of God?"

Do you see the underlined part at the end of the verse above? Can you say it out loud "Mr Islamic Scholar?" Would you like to bring that quote above to your Islamic scholars and tell them Fathom sent you? Give them my regards and tell those losers to kiss my ass while you're at it.

Do you consider yourself educated yet, genius? How much do you really think you know? Or are you now going to say something to the effect such as, "Oh, most of the gospel is corrupt, so what Jesus said there is not actually something he wrote. Somebody interpolated that verse later on."

You Muslims are a joke. A complete embarrassment to the human race, intellectually. You berate other religions without actually knowing a damn thing about them.


BMZ wrote:

Qur'aan is accused of stealing from the New T and the Old T. What is there to take from the New T? There is no Paul, no Matthew, no Mark, no Luke and no John in Qur'aan. Christians plagiarised the Jewish Holy Scriptures wholesale and wrote their Old T and forged it. If Qur'aan had 'stolen' most from the New T, then it would have 'stolen' the NewT God.  Not a single hocus pocus was taken from the mishmash of the gospels and the NewT. Laughing


Ummm ... how about the Quran stole Jesus from the NT? I mean, he's the BIG guy, isn't he? How about the Quran stealing Mary as well? John the Baptist? Where you try to talk about all the minor players that Quran didn't steal from the gospel, I remind you and everyone else that ALL the major players have indeed been stolen by the Quran from the Gospel. Islam hijacked Judaism and Christianity, and that fact is completely irrefutable.

BMZ wrote:

Muslims are not forbidden to read the two Bibles. In fact Muslims read the Bibles more than the Christians. I have Jewish Holy Scriptures and quite a few Christain Bibles sitting on my shelf next to my computer.  Laughing


Is that a fact?  Are you totally unaware that the bible is banned in Saudi Arabia, the heartland of Islam?

Who the hell are you trying to kid here, Einstein?


BMZ wrote:

If an ex-Muslim like Fathom can hate Islam, Qur'aan and Muslims so much, why should he as an ex-Christian, after becoming an ex-Muslim, hate Islam, Qur'aan and the Muslims so much and feel bad when Christianity is criticised? Mind-boggling, isn't it? lol!

Salaams, Mate
BMZ   [/i]


I hate your Islam with a burning passion and will work feverishly to release those who are enslaved to its evil ideology. I do not hate the people, but I certainly detest the cult of Islam which teaches you to beat your wives, rape the women of conquered lands, behead the innocent, suicide bombings, and train little children to kill.

Christianity, with all its faults, is a harmless religion in the modern world, unlike Islam. You don't see Christian suicide bombers every other day in the news, nor do you see them beheading innocent people in the name of God. Christians are not taught to beat their wives, rape other women, or have sex with little children.

I don't feel bad at all when Christianity is criticized because not one single point of your criticism can even compare to the atrocities of Islam in a modern world. You can't compare any other religion to Islam; it is the ONLY one who teaches all those evil things I have mentioned.

So go ahead; criticize Christianity until the cows come home, but at the end of the day the behavior of Christians in a modern world completely out-classes the behavior of Muslims.  Christianity makes Islam look like a cult of barbarians in comparison.
BMZ

Re: Hello, Fathom

Fathom wrote:
Being an x-all is a hell of a lot better than being a prisoner to a few words in an old book written centuries ago in a time when men created gods out of thin air just because the population was uneducated enough to not know any better.

But you have no excuse today in the modern world. Education is available everywhere and the archaic belief in a god is ridiculed without measure. You're like a little kid who doesn't want the light shut off at night because he's afraid of the dark. That's exactly the way you, and all Muslims, are. You haven't got the guts to accept the fact that when you die you just simply cease to exist. No, but you are so scared of death that you must believe that one life isn't enough, so you need another one in heaven.

Get real. When not one single person on earth has EVER proven the existence of heaven, God, angels, etc, how the hell do you even justify your religion? With faith? Faith in what? Since nothing has ever been proven, then what kind of faith are you talking about? Are you trying to tell me I should have faith in something I cannot see, hear, touch, taste, smell, or detect in any way, or where no one has ever once proven it to exist?

What kind of faith is that when you have nothing proven to believe in?

Bloody stupid is what it is. Be a man for once in your life and stop screaming in the dark like that kid who's afraid when the lights go out.

Grow up. Get out of religion before it damages you more than it already has.


Now this is another topic. Please stick to your defence of Christianity. We haven't done it yet. Look at Jesus in the light and shade of what you wrote. You just proved that the man was no God at all. Heck, he wasn't even a god of a kind. You have just reduced Jesus to zero.

The most beautiful part of the faith is believing in the Unseen God Almighty. There were other ridiculous books written 7-10 centuries before the arrival of Islam. Now if you compare the 1st Century and the 15 centuries before that, 7th Century was far more modern and civilised than those.

Yes, it is common knowledge that when one dies, one ceases to exist. This also applied to Jesus, when he finally died and was buried somewhere. However, the hope of being resurrected again by God on the JD, is far better than believing in getting turned into dust forever.

By the way, most of the laws came from religions. This is a fact which no one can deny and that includes you too.

What's up, Doc? Don't take it personal but all of a sudden you have begun to sound like Martin Luther.

BMZ
BMZ

Re: Hello, Fathom

Fathom wrote:
 Really? Well here's one just right off the top of my head, right from the mouth of Jesus himself:  

Joh 10:35-36:  "If He called those as 'gods' with whom the Word of God was, and that Scripture cannot be broken,  why do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I say that I am the Son of God?"

Do you see the underlined part at the end of the verse above? Can you say it out loud "Mr Islamic Scholar?" Would you like to bring that quote above to your Islamic scholars and tell them Fathom sent you? Give them my regards and tell those losers to kiss my ass while you're at it.


No need, Fathom. All the four gospels are incoherent. The entire NT is incoherent. You see Fathom, there are four gospels. Each contradicts the other, instead of complimenting. What you have quoted is based on the man in the cave John, who wrote it in his own words.

The other three are mostly unaware of John's work and must have died without even reading his gospel. The Jews had never expected any son of God to come. That was one of the the reason that he was rejected. John's gospel is his own gospel. It is not an authority on what Jesus really said. Did Jesus say the opening line for John's gospel? Were those words from Jesus? Writing son as Son does not make one the Son of God. His Father sanctified and glorified many others before him. Elijah was one of the greatest prophets of the Jews. In Jesus' own words, John the Baptist was greater than he.


Fathom wrote:
Do you consider yourself educated yet, genius? How much do you really think you know? Or are you now going to say something to the effect such as, "Oh, most of the gospel is corrupt, so what Jesus said there is not actually something he wrote. Somebody interpolated that verse later on."


I already did that in my response above. I would not say corrupt. They are the originals.  Laughing I would say the gospels are preposterous and the absurdity continues to amaze all.

Fathom wrote:
You Muslims are a joke. A complete embarrassment to the human race, intellectually. You berate other religions without actually knowing a damn thing about them.


Why don't you start discussing the Christian Scripture with me?

Fathom wrote:
Ummm ... how about the Quran stole Jesus from the NT? I mean, he's the BIG guy, isn't he? How about the Quran stealing Mary as well? John the Baptist? Where you try to talk about all the minor players that Quran didn't steal from the gospel, I remind you and everyone else that ALL the major players have indeed been stolen by the Quran from the Gospel. Islam hijacked Judaism and Christianity, and that fact is completely irrefutable.


And where did you steal Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Isaiah, et al from?  Laughing Without Isaiah, Christianity has no leg to stand upon. Isaiah spoke about a dry twig and you called that Jesus. Isaiah talked about someone getting buried with the wicked and you called him Jesus, when he was not buried with the wicked. He was not even buried with the good, he was simply laid in a rich man's tomb to recuperate. He had to be counted with, so you put two thieves on his either side, whereas the Jews never hung up thieves on cross and neither did the Romans.

BMZ wrote:

Muslims are not forbidden to read the two Bibles. In fact Muslims read the Bibles more than the Christians. I have Jewish Holy Scriptures and quite a few Christain Bibles sitting on my shelf next to my computer.  Laughing


Fathom wrote:
Is that a fact?  Are you totally unaware that the bible is banned in Saudi Arabia, the heartland of Islam?

Who the hell are you trying to kid here, Einstein?


Call the Saudi Consulate in your country and check. Every Christian is allowed to bring in one Bible into Saudi Arabia but is not allowed to bring in cartons of the Bible. I know the Law and I have been there and I do have Christian friends who are working there, so please do not bullshit. I don't know why do the Christians lie.

Fathom wrote:
[b]I hate your Islam with a burning passion and will work feverishly to release those who are enslaved to its evil ideology. I do not hate the people, but I certainly detest the cult of Islam which teaches you to beat your wives, rape the women of conquered lands, behead the innocent, suicide bombings, and train little children to kill.


Looks like you have forgotten what happened at Abu Ghuraib and how many women and girls were raped and tortured by Christian soldiers of the American Military. Looks like you have forgotten what the Christian Serbs did just recently to the Bosnian Muslims.

Fathom wrote:
Christianity, with all its faults, is a harmless religion in the modern world, unlike Islam. You don't see Christian suicide bombers every other day in the news, nor do you see them beheading innocent people in the name of God. Christians are not taught to beat their wives, rape other women, or have sex with little children.


I see all the evils in the Christian and the Western world and there is no lack of it. I see Police Videos, Animal Videos, etc., on television. I see gunning down of students in Universities. Brutal rapes, killings, prostitution including child prostitution and all evils. Have you seen those kind of television series from the Muslim world? Is it all due to Christianity or the lack of it or the lack of values in upbringing? I rest my case.

BMZ
HomoErectus

Re: Hello, Fathom

BMZ wrote:

[
I see all the evils in the Christian and the Western world and there is no lack of it. I see Police Videos, Animal Videos, etc., on television. I see gunning down of students in Universities. Brutal rapes, killings, prostitution including child prostitution and all evils. Have you seen those kind of television series from the Muslim world? Is it all due to Christianity or the lack of it or the lack of values in upbringing? I rest my case.

BMZ



You talk about movies, videos, teevee here...

Yet all these atrocities, crimes, inhumanities become reality when we look towards islamic countries !

Can YOU see the difference ?

Besides, you realize that playing your favourite game - bashing of x-tians -  won't help you at all, in getting your "islam" out of the deep doodoo it is stuck in !

.
BMZ

Re: Hello, Fathom

HomoErectus wrote:
BMZ wrote:

[
I see all the evils in the Christian and the Western world and there is no lack of it. I see Police Videos, Animal Videos, etc., on television. I see gunning down of students in Universities. Brutal rapes, killings, prostitution including child prostitution and all evils. Have you seen those kind of television series from the Muslim world? Is it all due to Christianity or the lack of it or the lack of values in upbringing? I rest my case.

BMZ



You talk about movies, videos, teevee here...

Yet all these atrocities, crimes, inhumanities become reality when we look towards islamic countries !

Can YOU see the difference ?

Besides, you realize that playing your favourite game - bashing of x-tians -  won't help you at all, in getting your "islam" out of the deep doodoo it is stuck in !

.


Islam is the religion and as a religion it is fine.

Muslim world is in a turmoil. That is a different problem and it can be discussed separately.

Christianity does not fit into Judaism and Islam.  It is not even a sect of Judaism. Although, the idea was borrowed from Hinduism and Mithraism, etc., Christianity even does not fit within these either.

BMZ
Baal

Re: Hello, Fathom

BMZ wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
BMZ wrote:

[
I see all the evils in the Christian and the Western world and there is no lack of it. I see Police Videos, Animal Videos, etc., on television. I see gunning down of students in Universities. Brutal rapes, killings, prostitution including child prostitution and all evils. Have you seen those kind of television series from the Muslim world? Is it all due to Christianity or the lack of it or the lack of values in upbringing? I rest my case.

BMZ



You talk about movies, videos, teevee here...

Yet all these atrocities, crimes, inhumanities become reality when we look towards islamic countries !

Can YOU see the difference ?

Besides, you realize that playing your favourite game - bashing of x-tians -  won't help you at all, in getting your "islam" out of the deep doodoo it is stuck in !

.


Islam is the religion and as a religion it is fine.

Muslim world is in a turmoil. That is a different problem and it can be discussed separately.

Christianity does not fit into Judaism and Islam.  It is not even a sect of Judaism. Although, the idea was borrowed from Hinduism and Mithraism, etc., Christianity even does not fit within these either.

BMZ

Leave the muslims to their own problems. Only the BBC and CNN comment and study muslims, this muslim is good or this muslim is bad. On forums we only study islam. we study the sources of islam. We study muhammad and the people he directly affected.
BMZ

Re: Hello, Fathom

Baal wrote:
BMZ wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
BMZ wrote:

[
I see all the evils in the Christian and the Western world and there is no lack of it. I see Police Videos, Animal Videos, etc., on television. I see gunning down of students in Universities. Brutal rapes, killings, prostitution including child prostitution and all evils. Have you seen those kind of television series from the Muslim world? Is it all due to Christianity or the lack of it or the lack of values in upbringing? I rest my case.

BMZ



You talk about movies, videos, teevee here...

Yet all these atrocities, crimes, inhumanities become reality when we look towards islamic countries !

Can YOU see the difference ?

Besides, you realize that playing your favourite game - bashing of x-tians -  won't help you at all, in getting your "islam" out of the deep doodoo it is stuck in !

.


Islam is the religion and as a religion it is fine.

Muslim world is in a turmoil. That is a different problem and it can be discussed separately.

Christianity does not fit into Judaism and Islam.  It is not even a sect of Judaism. Although, the idea was borrowed from Hinduism and Mithraism, etc., Christianity even does not fit within these either.

BMZ

Leave the muslims to their own problems. Only the BBC and CNN comment and study muslims, this muslim is good or this muslim is bad. On forums we only study islam. we study the sources of islam. We study muhammad and the people he directly affected.


So, what is the main source of Islam, in your view and what do you study then? Have you thoroughly studied Qur'aan?
HomoErectus

Re: Hello, Fathom

BMZ wrote:


Islam is the religion and as a religion it is fine.



Excuse me, when I completely reject your interpretation of your religion !

This is YOUR impression, of course, since you are completely indoctrinated, brainwashed, from day one on this planet - you never had the chance to think outside of these imaginary borderlines of islam... your agrumentation is bouncing against the walls of the dungeon you are trapped in !

I really do not blame you for that, you just can't help it !

And no provocation intended, from my side, here...

For an outsider, who is completely unimpressed by islam, neither by the "message" of the scriptures, nor the "spiritual" content, it is very different, can you understand this part ?

What could possibly make me "believe" ?

All religions CLAIM to be in posession of the truth, and god, etc...

WHAT makes your religion more credible ?

ALL of them have "holy scriptures"... WHY "islam" ?

Again, please don't take this as a provocation, its not meant that way !

How could you persuade me ?


Quote:

Muslim world is in a turmoil. That is a different problem and it can be discussed separately.



The muslim world always has been in turmoil, since day one...
And I'm no stranger to "islamic" lands, I've travelled some of them extensively !

Streams of blood have been flowing down the ages, in which islam took over what is now "islamic lands", from persia to indonesia, from north-africa to the gates of vienna...

"Islam" BY FAR  beats any other ideology in the numbers of people it has killed... marginalizing other major killers, like nazis, stalin, pol pot, ghengis khan, timur lengh, etc...

As an outsider, and atheist/agnostic [I like A_B's definition] I really do not understand WHAT could "attract" me towards islam, what could possibly seduce me, make me a "believer" ?

Out of my position, I can only despise it...


Quote:

Christianity does not fit into Judaism and Islam.  It is not even a sect of Judaism. Although, the idea was borrowed from Hinduism and Mithraism, etc., Christianity even does not fit within these either.

BMZ



Arent we talking about "islam" in this thread ?

No need for this old "tu quoque" - again beating on x-tians here...

I do beat on x-tians myself too, when its needed, like in the case of this unspeakable arse-bishop of canterbuy...

But it does not help your case here at all - discussing with me !

.
Fathom

Re: Hello, Fathom

BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
 Really? Well here's one just right off the top of my head, right from the mouth of Jesus himself:  

Joh 10:35-36:  "If He called those as 'gods' with whom the Word of God was, and that Scripture cannot be broken,  why do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I say that I am the Son of God?"

Do you see the underlined part at the end of the verse above? Can you say it out loud "Mr Islamic Scholar?" Would you like to bring that quote above to your Islamic scholars and tell them Fathom sent you? Give them my regards and tell those losers to kiss my ass while you're at it.


No need, Fathom. All the four gospels are incoherent. The entire NT is incoherent. You see Fathom, there are four gospels. Each contradicts the other, instead of complimenting. What you have quoted is based on the man in the cave John, who wrote it in his own words.

The other three are mostly unaware of John's work and must have died without even reading his gospel. The Jews had never expected any son of God to come. That was one of the the reason that he was rejected. John's gospel is his own gospel. It is not an authority on what Jesus really said. Did Jesus say the opening line for John's gospel? Were those words from Jesus? Writing son as Son does not make one the Son of God. His Father sanctified and glorified many others before him. Elijah was one of the greatest prophets of the Jews. In Jesus' own words, John the Baptist was greater than he.


But who cares if the gospels contradict one another? That's got nothing to do with the statement that "nowhere in the gospels does Jesus claim to be the son of God." The fact of the matter is I could care less if the gospels contradict each other; my point was to clearly illustrate to you that one of the gospels does indeed clearly show Jesus uttering a proclamation with the exact words of "I am the Son of God."

And now you are doing precisely what I expected you to do; you are avoiding the point I have illustrated by attempting to throw red herrings into the mix as if they will somehow negate the fact that you and any Islamic scholar who claims that the gospels do not show Jesus uttering the words of "I am the Son of God" are 100% dead WRONG!

Therefore, I am correct, you are wrong, end of story, you lose.

Period.


BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Do you consider yourself educated yet, genius? How much do you really think you know? Or are you now going to say something to the effect such as, "Oh, most of the gospel is corrupt, so what Jesus said there is not actually something he wrote. Somebody interpolated that verse later on."


I already did that in my response above. I would not say corrupt. They are the originals.  Laughing I would say the gospels are preposterous and the absurdity continues to amaze all.


But who cares if the gospels are "preposterous and absurd?" Does the gospels being preposterous and absurd somehow make the Qur'an any more valid? They are BOTH preposterous and absurd so how the hell does the gospels being preposterous and absurd somehow make the Quran valid?

How do you correlate that, genius?


BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
You Muslims are a joke. A complete embarrassment to the human race, intellectually. You berate other religions without actually knowing a damn thing about them.[/b]


Why don't you start discussing the Christian Scripture with me?


For what purpose? So I can laugh at the absurdity of the Christian religion as much as I laugh at the absurdity of the Islamic religion? My point is not, and never has been, that Christianity has any more truth to it then Islam. Both are ridiculous belief systems, but if I had to choose which one is more compatible and harmless in the modern world today, then it certainly would NOT be Islam.

Christianity completely outclasses Islam in regards to a peaceful co-existence with other faiths and cultures. End of story.

BMZ wrote:

Fathom wrote:
[b]Ummm ... how about the Quran stole Jesus from the NT? I mean, he's the BIG guy, isn't he? How about the Quran stealing Mary as well? John the Baptist? Where you try to talk about all the minor players that Quran didn't steal from the gospel, I remind you and everyone else that ALL the major players have indeed been stolen by the Quran from the Gospel. Islam hijacked Judaism and Christianity, and that fact is completely irrefutable.


And where did you steal Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Isaiah, et al from?  Laughing Without Isaiah, Christianity has no leg to stand upon. Isaiah spoke about a dry twig and you called that Jesus. Isaiah talked about someone getting buried with the wicked and you called him Jesus, when he was not buried with the wicked. He was not even buried with the good, he was simply laid in a rich man's tomb to recuperate. He had to be counted with, so you put two thieves on his either side, whereas the Jews never hung up thieves on cross and neither did the Romans.


Where did I steal Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Isaiah, et al from? I didn't steal them from any where. I could care less from where the Christians get their scripture so what's your point? Who gives a damn who was buried with who? What's that got to do with the fact that Islam has hijacked both Christianity and Judaism? I don't give a damn whether or not Christianity hi-jacked Judaism because that's not my point or concern.

My point is clearly that the Quran hijacked BOTH religions. End of story.


BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
BMZ wrote:

Muslims are not forbidden to read the two Bibles. In fact Muslims read the Bibles more than the Christians. I have Jewish Holy Scriptures and quite a few Christain Bibles sitting on my shelf next to my computer.  Laughing


Is that a fact?  Are you totally unaware that the bible is banned in Saudi Arabia, the heartland of Islam?

Who the hell are you trying to kid here, Einstein?


Call the Saudi Consulate in your country and check. Every Christian is allowed to bring in one Bible into Saudi Arabia but is not allowed to bring in cartons of the Bible. I know the Law and I have been there and I do have Christian friends who are working there, so please do not bullshit. I don't know why do the Christians lie.


Really?

Quote:
"Last week a Christian pastor who worked in Saudi Arabia during the 1990s told the Cybercast News Service it was widely known among underground Christians there that Bibles were confiscated -- and sometimes shredded -- by Saudi customs officials at ports of entry.

Human rights campaigners name Saudi Arabia as one of the world’s most egregious violators of religious freedom.

Saudi Arabia bans the importation or the display of crosses, Stars of David or any other religious symbols not approved by the Wahhabi establishment,” he continued. “TV programs that show Christian clergymen, crosses or Stars of David are censored.”


http://www.hvk.org/articles/0505/73.html

How sure are you of that?

Try THIS LINK for a report from the US Government in regards to the Saudi Arabian policies in regards to "religious freedom.

So who the hell do you think you're trying to fool here, Muslim? It certainly isn't me, nor anyone else who knows obviously FAR more than your Islamic poisoned mind could ever hope to comprehend.

BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
I hate your Islam with a burning passion and will work feverishly to release those who are enslaved to its evil ideology. I do not hate the people, but I certainly detest the cult of Islam which teaches you to beat your wives, rape the women of conquered lands, behead the innocent, suicide bombings, and train little children to kill.


Looks like you have forgotten what happened at Abu Ghuraib and how many women and girls were raped and tortured by Christian soldiers of the American Military. Looks like you have forgotten what the Christian Serbs did just recently to the Bosnian Muslims.


And did those soldiers rape those women while yelling "In the name of JESUS!?"  And what "recent" atrocity did the Christian Serbs do to the Bosnian Muslims? Are you speaking of something that occurred in a war-torn country some 15 years ago?  And was this killing from the Serbs upon the Bosnian Muslims done in the name of Jesus?

Or was it done as a retaliation against the Muslims for their decades of suppression and murder upon the Serbs? If you had read your history correctly, you would have known that it had nothing to do with Christians killing anyone in the name of Jesus or the Holy Bible, but instead it was an act of retaliation against the Muslims for the horrendous atrocities they inflicted upon the Serbs in general, which included much more than just Christians, and the fact that the Muslims committed those crimes IN THE NAME OF ALLAH!

Just because Christians go to war does not mean they go to war in the name of Jesus or Christianity, unlike Muslims who go to war in the name of Allah and Islam.


BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
Christianity, with all its faults, is a harmless religion in the modern world, unlike Islam. You don't see Christian suicide bombers every other day in the news, nor do you see them beheading innocent people in the name of God. Christians are not taught to beat their wives, rape other women, or have sex with little children.


I see all the evils in the Christian and the Western world and there is no lack of it. I see Police Videos, Animal Videos, etc., on television. I see gunning down of students in Universities. Brutal rapes, killings, prostitution including child prostitution and all evils. Have you seen those kind of television series from the Muslim world? Is it all due to Christianity or the lack of it or the lack of values in upbringing? I rest my case. BMZ


And does Christianity have anything to do with any of that? Are all those crimes you listed above done in the name of Jesus and Christianity? Did they do the hateful crimes Muslims are known to do?

Do you want to know what hate is? let me show you what hate is, ok?


Do you really believe Islam needs Christians or other religions hatred to be demonized? Was it by the Christians or other religions that The Riaz Family were burned alive as an honor killing by the husband/father?

Did Christians or other religions extend a helping hand to the Taliban when they publicly executed Zarmeena in a stadium in Afghanistan?

Did any of the Christians or other religions act as the judge and pound the gavel that sentenced 29 year old Amina to death by stoning?

Do you think Christians or other religions were among the Islamic rebels who viciously decapitated Shameema Akhter in Kashmir and left her head hanging in a tree?

You can rest your case all you want, but at the end of the day the verdict on Islam has been returned with a resounding GUILTY, and if you wish to continuing believing in a religion that does horrible things to people such as I have listed above, then I have every right and expectation to view YOU in precisely the same light as I viewed those Muslims who committed all those crimes I listed above.

You're just as damn guilty as they are because you support the very same religion of which they murdered people for!
Baal

Re: Hello, Fathom

BMZ wrote:
Baal wrote:
BMZ wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
BMZ wrote:

[
I see all the evils in the Christian and the Western world and there is no lack of it. I see Police Videos, Animal Videos, etc., on television. I see gunning down of students in Universities. Brutal rapes, killings, prostitution including child prostitution and all evils. Have you seen those kind of television series from the Muslim world? Is it all due to Christianity or the lack of it or the lack of values in upbringing? I rest my case.

BMZ



You talk about movies, videos, teevee here...

Yet all these atrocities, crimes, inhumanities become reality when we look towards islamic countries !

Can YOU see the difference ?

Besides, you realize that playing your favourite game - bashing of x-tians -  won't help you at all, in getting your "islam" out of the deep doodoo it is stuck in !

.


Islam is the religion and as a religion it is fine.

Muslim world is in a turmoil. That is a different problem and it can be discussed separately.

Christianity does not fit into Judaism and Islam.  It is not even a sect of Judaism. Although, the idea was borrowed from Hinduism and Mithraism, etc., Christianity even does not fit within these either.

BMZ

Leave the muslims to their own problems. Only the BBC and CNN comment and study muslims, this muslim is good or this muslim is bad. On forums we only study islam. we study the sources of islam. We study muhammad and the people he directly affected.


So, what is the main source of Islam, in your view and what do you study then? Have you thoroughly studied Qur'aan?

What kind of dumb question is that. No I studied islam by reading the hindus vedat or however the fvck it is spelt. I studied islam by opening 6000 chinese cookie and reading the fortune written by honorable bhuddist monk. I studied islam by watching CNN?!??! and the DBC. Maybe if i heard more speeches by Condi I would have learned something new.

I will tell you what I did NOT learn islam from. I did not learn islam from you Bmz. I do not recall ever reading something new about islam. I do not recall ever going, wow, this is something new i haven't thought of or seen before. I am not saying this to discourage you. It just that whatever knowledge trip you are on, don't stop, you still have some more to go.

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