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HomoErectus

Whats outside ?

We all have accepted [more or less] the "big-bang-theory", of an expanding universe, sort of like a balloon being inflated, then sucking it all back in, or as in the case of the balloon, exhausting all the air inside, the shrinking process.

Following this logic, another good question would be - WHAT is outside of our "universe", and... are there maybe more "universes" around ?

Who could possibly say "we're the only universe" ?
We can't even say we're the "only ones" [life] in our "endless" universe.

What is the "material", the space outside our space is consisting of ?

"Nothingness" would be one label, but WHAT [on earth] is that ?

One day, I would like to sit in a space-ship, and head on down the wormhole-road, to the limits of this universe, poke a hole through the outer skin, and have a look at it all...
Mutley

Has to be metaphysical of some sorts and simply beyond the conceptualizing mind, because we cannot conceive of it because we have never experienced it and it is not part of our real world, nor even conceivable world. Remember, even if we imagine or postulate or theorize or conceive, we are still merely taking things we already know as part of our past experience or knowledge, and then reshuffling or rearranging it. But there truly is no such thing as a completely unique thought. It is always coming from the context of our existing knowledge and environment, rather than outside of it. We are simply rearranging it in unique ways that sometimes can cause seemingly new ideas, that are, in actuality, simply a unique arrangement of old things. As is said in the creative art world. No new creative idea is ever completely new and will always invariably owe it's idea to something that has already been experienced, and merely reshuffled in a creative way. So it's actually impossible for us to step out of our context. Well, maybe not entirely impossible as mystics would have suggestions about this, but I'm not going there. Too long.
kafir forever

Re: Whats outside ?

HomoErectus wrote:
We all have accepted [more or less] the "big-bang-theory", of an expanding universe, sort of like a balloon being inflated, then sucking it all back in, or as in the case of the balloon, exhausting all the air inside, the shrinking process.

Following this logic, another good question would be - WHAT is outside of our "universe", and... are there maybe more "universes" around ?

Who could possibly say "we're the only universe" ?
We can't even say we're the "only ones" [life] in our "endless" universe.

What is the "material", the space outside our space is consisting of ?

"Nothingness" would be one label, but WHAT [on earth] is that ?

One day, I would like to sit in a space-ship, and head on down the wormhole-road, to the limits of this universe, poke a hole through the outer skin, and have a look at it all...


Here is a mind game for you HE.  What would be the impact on your belief system if you discovered that the universe is, always was, and always will be an infinite reservoir of energy constantly transforming itself from one form into another in such a way that the universe will always exist, to infinity, and was never created, and will never be destroyed?  It just exists in a constant state of transformation from one form into another.?  Isn't that what the Law of Conservation of Energy is all about?

Just asking.
HomoErectus

Mutley wrote:

Has to be metaphysical of some sorts and simply beyond the conceptualizing mind,



Yes, its beyond the reach even of our imagination....

It could be anything, from plasma, to some other fluid, making our universe appear like a bubble under water...

It could be the real "nothing" [whatever that may be], making the universe appear like a space-ship, expanding into nowhere and nothing, no "location", no direction, in no time, and no measurements we have adopted, made up, according to our - so far - knowlegde.

And sure, we always come back to the point, where we have to say - like you also rightfully point out - its all about our empirically achieved standards, our measurements, which may be completely out of any relevance when thinking about this "outer" part of our "world", our mental "world", that is, which sets the standards for our "understanding"  as well as our "not-understanding".

We are limited !

One step further down this line, we come to the point where we may find out that our limited understanding is "not enough" to grasp all the points reaching beyond these limits, like the well known inconceivable terms "infinity" or "endless" and maybe also... "God" !

One question, another one to not get answered - IF there is some "force" out there - is this "god" [or gods] an "inner god" - meaning, does he "live" inside our universe, or does he look at the whole from outside ?

If so, "he" could have not only one "universum", but maybe universae in  row, like pebbles on a beach, or raindrops in the air....

Anything is possible, even things we can not even imagine.

What we do perceive is, we do not "understand" much of whats going on "up there".
And the more we know, the less we know, because we find out that its all so complex and "unbelievable", incomprehensible, like a chain, interwoven with an endless row of other chains, of which we only see a couple of links, the rest is hopelessly buried in the dark, where we have no torch ready to lighten up this indefinite darkness.

We give up, at a certain point, like you have pointed out, when it is beyond our conceptionalizing mind to get a grip on the matter of the question.

And rightfully so, like a cangaroo can only JUMP, but it can't fly [yet].
We - cangaroos too - have to grow wings in order to do that !

Maybe there is a "God" - maybe there isn't.
We will maybe never know.
Maybe we're not supposed to know.....

How can we possibly apply human logic, and human measures, on to the "place", the "space" outside of our universe ?

How could we possibly apply this very same limited logic onto a "God" [or more gods].

Doesn't an alleged "god" HAVE to be beyond our mental reach ?

The same applies to the "no god" theory, or maybe even worse than that, since it takes away just about any glimpse of hope I could ever "understand" all this, locked into the cellblock of my limited brain, eternally, running in circles.


Quote:

because we cannot conceive of it because we have never experienced it and it is not part of our real world, nor even conceivable world. Remember, even if we imagine or postulate or theorize or conceive, we are still merely taking things we already know as part of our past experience or knowledge, and then reshuffling or rearranging it. But there truly is no such thing as a completely unique thought. It is always coming from the context of our existing knowledge and environment, rather than outside of it. We are simply rearranging it in unique ways that sometimes can cause seemingly new ideas, that are, in actuality, simply a unique arrangement of old things. As is said in the creative art world. No new creative idea is ever completely new and will always invariably owe it's idea to something that has already been experienced, and merely reshuffled in a creative way. So it's actually impossible for us to step out of our context. Well, maybe not entirely impossible as mystics would have suggestions about this, but I'm not going there. Too long.



Yes, agreed upon.
And yes, better not go to the mystics, they may have "suggestions" about it - been there, done that - at which point we will re-enter "religion" and speculation, according to our limits.

The donkey and the carrot - running in circles - to grind the corn, making it flour, so we can bake our little breads to feed upon.

Errrr...  
What was it I was trying to ask ?
HomoErectus

Re: Whats outside ?

kafir forever wrote:

Here is a mind game for you HE.  What would be the impact on your belief system



Dear KF
I don't have such a "belief sytem" anymore, if you are talking in terms of "religion".
It has gone over-board long time ago.
Too many "what if" questions, and no answer from "above".

Like I said in my reply to Mutley, I have given up at a certain point, realizing that I will not be able to solve these mysteries, it makes no sense to run around with an ever-burning question in my mind, knowing I will probably never get it answered...

And furthermore, if I had the answer, what would I then do with my knowlegde, could I "act" upon it - confined to be the observer only, with no way to interfere, to change things - wouldn't I rather not know it all, stay ignorant, and thus still keep the chance to live a happy life under the circumstances we are dominated by - ant, live your ant life, life a happy ant-life, if you can !

Lets get into the next gear....

We all - more or less - have accepted the "big-bang-theory" !
According to which the universe expands, and at some point gets into reverse-mode, back to the beginning again, everything will get sucked in towards the center [?] of the universe, melting all material down into some stage of concentrated pure [?] energy [maybe "god"]

It makes no fuggin sense to look for any other planet, if we make it to screw up this planet - or by its own nature, it will one day heat up, and inflate like a ballon, and finally just - another "bang" - blow up into pieces and smoke...

This "bang" will also have an impact on our solar-system, on all neighbouring planets, maybe even the sun, who knows....

So, if we [human beings] wanted to survive a "little longer" in this universe, we'd better find our ways to some farther out system, with a more protected "environment" [I want at least three suns and maybe five moons, and sundown forever!], for some period.....

In the end, it all just doesn't matter !
The "big bang" will have "banged out" into a maybe "slurping sound", sucking it all in like the shredder in your kitchen sink !

It just doesn't matter. Period !

Okayyyyy... errrr, where do I go from here now...  hmmmm.....

Nowhere !
I'm maybe supposed to go nowhere, but according to what logic ?

The more you dig, the more you become obsessed with it, the more you like the diggin' - the more you dig a hole into another hole who is the hole, etc....

At which point I personally return to "humanology", no other choice available, to the philosophers who tell you to ENJOY your life as long as you can !

Live like an ANT, don't think why, just live your ants life, and do as good as you can, to also enjoy it!
 

Quote:

if you discovered that the universe is, always was, and always will be an infinite reservoir of energy constantly transforming itself from one form into another in such a way that the universe will always exist, to infinity, and was never created, and will never be destroyed?  It just exists in a constant state of transformation from one form into another.?  Isn't that what the Law of Conservation of Energy is all about?

Just asking.



As you can see above, I can relate to your picture.
If....
And yet....
But still....

P.S.:
I have no answer as to why we have emotions at all ?
How do they fit in our "plan" ?

WHY have "love", when it actually complicates matters for us ?

Where does it come from ?
Mutley

HomoErectus wrote:
Mutley wrote:

Has to be metaphysical of some sorts and simply beyond the conceptualizing mind,



Yes, its beyond the reach even of our imagination....

It could be anything, from plasma, to some other fluid, making our universe appear like a bubble under water...


That would be in the reach of our imagination
HomoErectus

Mutley wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
Mutley wrote:

Has to be metaphysical of some sorts and simply beyond the conceptualizing mind,



Yes, its beyond the reach even of our imagination....

It could be anything, from plasma, to some other fluid, making our universe appear like a bubble under water...


That would be in the reach of our imagination



I know, and you are absolutely right - I am so... human ! Smile
No matter how hard I try, I can't leave that level.

Can you think of "nothing" - what is "nothing" - if we take it from the point of "outside" of this universe...

And "nothing" again is a human concept, a word which describes "emptiness", but empty only of our limited measurements and comprehension.

Shortly ago, I have seen a documentary, IMAX-size too, of the pictures that the Hubble-Telescope is sending back to earth.

Anyone should see this, and now I also have it on DVD, its INCREDIBLE !
And truely frightening, I confess !
It leaves you speechless...

All of this is so BIG and full of fire and violence and and and... there is no words to describe what you see.

How DARE we put human logic onto all this ?
Mutley

HomoErectus wrote:
Mutley wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
Mutley wrote:

Has to be metaphysical of some sorts and simply beyond the conceptualizing mind,



Yes, its beyond the reach even of our imagination....

It could be anything, from plasma, to some other fluid, making our universe appear like a bubble under water...


That would be in the reach of our imagination



I know, and you are absolutely right - I am so... human ! Smile
No matter how hard I try, I can't leave that level.

Can you think of "nothing" - what is "nothing" - if we take it from the point of "outside" of this universe...

And "nothing" again is a human concept, a word which describes "emptiness", but empty only of our limited measurements and comprehension.

Shortly ago, I have seen a documentary, IMAX-size too, of the pictures that the Hubble-Telescope is sending back to earth.

Anyone should see this, and now I also have it on DVD, its INCREDIBLE !
And truely frightening, I confess !
It leaves you speechless...

All of this is so BIG and full of fire and violence and and and... there is no words to describe what you see.

How DARE we put human logic onto all this ?


Just because it's beyond the conceptualizing mind, doesn't mean it's nothing. The Japanese say, do not seek the truth, just drop your opinions. Every concept or opinion or idea will inevitably end up distorting reality by either adding something to it or subtracting something from it. If one stopped being opiniinated, they would experience the truth of everything that is around them. Obviously, easier said then done as we can't help but look at everything through the lens of our opinions.

Quote:

Everyone asks me about what will happen when they finally arrive. Is this just curiosity? We're always asking how would this fit into that system, or whether this would make sense in that context, or what it will feel like when we get there. Get started and you will know; it cannot be described. It is said widely in the East, "Those who know, do not say; those who say, do not know." It cannot be said; only the opposite can be said. The guru cannot give you the truth. Truth cannot be put into words, into a formula. That isn't the truth. That isn't reality. Reality cannot be put into a formula. The guru can only point out your errors. When you drop your errors, you will know the truth. And even then you cannot say


What's outside? Well, if you ask yourself why you ask, you will know all you care to know.
HomoErectus

Mutley wrote:

What's outside? Well, if you ask yourself why you ask, you will know all you care to know.



Oh, I think even curiosity is enough of a reason!

"Curiosity killed the cat" - not because it was looking for something "divine" !

Sure, there is no answer to this question [whats outside], but the mere question will open up a whole new dimension and another row of follow-up questions, aiming at nullifying the well known concepts of our religions.

I know the theory - doing something by doing nothing !
Do not ask and you will be answered !

Quazillions of people have died on this planet, waiting for an answer by "doing nothing", which is just another philosophical way of keeping you "going", and accepting the ignorance we are being held prisoners in.

What I am doing is, playing around with questions, I do not have answers, I do not even pretend to.
I'm just a curious ANT in this! Confused
Mutley

HomoErectus wrote:
Mutley wrote:

What's outside? Well, if you ask yourself why you ask, you will know all you care to know.



Oh, I think even curiosity is enough of a reason!

"Curiosity killed the cat" - not because it was looking for something "divine" !

Sure, there is no answer to this question [whats outside], but the mere question will open up a whole new dimension and another row of follow-up questions, aiming at nullifying the well known concepts of our religions.

I know the theory - doing something by doing nothing !
Do not ask and you will be answered !

Quazillions of people have died on this planet, waiting for an answer by "doing nothing", which is just another philosophical way of keeping you "going", and accepting the ignorance we are being held prisoners in.

What I am doing is, playing around with questions, I do not have answers, I do not even pretend to.
I'm just a curious ANT in this! Confused


Curiosity is really a small misnomer. People want to know because they seek to understand their world. Why do they seek to understand their world? So that they can control it. It's extremely rare that someone wants to know merely for the sake of knowing. That's a little illusion that we lie to ourselves with.
HomoErectus

Mutley wrote:


Curiosity is really a small misnomer. People want to know because they seek to understand their world. Why do they seek to understand their world? So that they can control it. It's extremely rare that someone wants to know merely for the sake of knowing. That's a little illusion that we lie to ourselves with.



Yes, if "control" is applied in a larger sense, also eliminating risks or securing hunting-grounds, like in the case of a cat [and not cats only], vital interests.

Looking and entering some dark place, just to find out "aaah, there's no  danger for me" - or - "aaah, there's food running around, for me".

Yes, maybe this "control" is the reason for curiosity!

But then...
I know Afghanistan quite well, in 2002 I went there again, ALONE, just me and my cameras - plenty of dangers lurking, but no "food running around" - wouldn't that qualify as "curiosity only" ?

Just an example....
Mutley

HomoErectus wrote:
Mutley wrote:


Curiosity is really a small misnomer. People want to know because they seek to understand their world. Why do they seek to understand their world? So that they can control it. It's extremely rare that someone wants to know merely for the sake of knowing. That's a little illusion that we lie to ourselves with.



Yes, if "control" is applied in a larger sense, also eliminating risks or securing hunting-grounds, like in the case of a cat [and not cats only], vital interests.

Looking and entering some dark place, just to find out "aaah, there's no  danger for me" - or - "aaah, there's food running around, for me".

Yes, maybe this "control" is the reason for curiosity!

But then...
I know Afghanistan quite well, in 2002 I went there again, ALONE, just me and my cameras - plenty of dangers lurking, but no "food running around" - wouldn't that qualify as "curiosity only" ?

Just an example....


Your cameras? Why did you bring cameras?
HomoErectus

Hehehe.....
Guess you caught me on that one !
brainout

Re: Whats outside ?

HomoErectus wrote:
We all have accepted [more or less] the "big-bang-theory", of an expanding universe, sort of like a balloon being inflated, then sucking it all back in, or as in the case of the balloon, exhausting all the air inside, the shrinking process.

Following this logic, another good question would be - WHAT is outside of our "universe", and... are there maybe more "universes" around ?

Who could possibly say "we're the only universe" ?
We can't even say we're the "only ones" [life] in our "endless" universe.

What is the "material", the space outside our space is consisting of ?

"Nothingness" would be one label, but WHAT [on earth] is that ?

One day, I would like to sit in a space-ship, and head on down the wormhole-road, to the limits of this universe, poke a hole through the outer skin, and have a look at it all...


I've been thinking about that topic all my life.  Seems to me math tells you the answer to it.  M-version of string theory posits 11 dimensions, but I submit there are only five.  Put in laymen's terms, it might go like this:

1.  The universe you see is the real and only one, nothing really outside it.  However,
2.  There is a POTENTIALITY dimension which is an indissoluble part of this universe, wherein a given action UNTIL taken, has many outcomes which would ripple into this universe, if that action occurs, and depending on how and when it occurs.  So
3.  The other four dimensions which we all know, are in a constant dynamic flux.  What passes for expansion, contraction, even the big-bang itself (if that's how it started), would always be affected by the fifth 'potentiality' dimension.

The name of this potentiality dimension, is truth itself, which is a set of math-like formulas.  Truth is really a set of relationships between variables, if a then b, depending on c..x, or whatever the data set of variables are.  The variables themselves are of course affected by other variables outside the formula in question.  But taken as a whole, the entire SET of formulas would themselves be a structure of truth, and all existence 'cycles' through them.

These would be the 'strings', the formulas themselves.  They are open, pending enaction by variables in the real universe. Think of it as accessing data on a hard drive, which until the accession occurs, there is no 'formula' processing.  Once the accession occurs, the string closes, as it's now an ACTING formula, no longer merely a potential one.  Then other formulas are accessed, as they too are impacted now by the one acting.  And so it ripples out, and more open strings close.

All this is immaterial, of course, as formulas themselves have neither mass nor energy, but are rather laws, principles.

From there, you decipher whether these laws or principles actually have a Mind behind them.  I of course submit they do, as we ourselves are persons, for animacy cannot come from inanimacy, but animacy can create inanimacy.  But now I go outside the thread.

So either call the potential, fifth dimension "God" or a set of impersonal laws (good luck, if you do the latter).  But there would not need to be 11 dimensions.  Five would be enough.

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