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Mutley
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:07 am Post subject:

Fine. I clarified. _________________ If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello

Tvebak
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:08 am Post subject:

Mutley wrote:

Fine. I clarified.

ok but I still see it as problem in your argumentation.

Your argument as I understand it was about "the future" being "a creation of our mind" and therefore there's nothing to "predict". right?

you said wrote:

Yes it does. It attempts to answer the contradiction between omniscience and our ability to change our fate through free will. If we regulate the future do be no more tan a creation of our mind (an expectation), then God would not be required to know it. God could be said to predict it better than we can, but we would still be able to alter it.

But anyways "an omniscient god" should still know every dimensions and therefore also know the outcome of "free will".

Cheers
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Yes, we have a "soul"; but it's made of lots of tiny robots. - Daniel Dennet

It's mine "." ...

brainout
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:54 am Post subject:

Tvebak: imagine you are standing in front of a canvas. Before your eyes, dots form. You know in advance what those dots will be, but instead of causing them, you AUTHORIZE them to be freely whatever they are. So they play, like fractals. You GAVE them the 'life' to do that. You know what the picture will become (kinda like that Jesus Painting video you can see on Youtube). You don't stop it. Over time, the dots grow and grow and propagate on their own. Dots of time. STILL on the same canvas, like a Georges Seurat painting. And no matter how many dots there are, they are all still on the same canvas, and you like what you see, even all the horror. Because, what you ordained, was TRUTH BE FREE. No matter how long time lasts -- forever -- the dots will just keep on being on the canvas, the picture being completed more and more, never-ending. Welcome to Omniscience. No forcing of free will. Instead, love of Freedom, and Truth. _________________ God needs no defending, and always begs the premise. For belief of any kind, always needs self-auditing.

Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:35 am Post subject:

But those dots won’t form without your specific authorisation, will they!? _________________

brainout
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:24 am Post subject:

No, Pazuzu, they won't. And if I LOVE, I will ALWAYS provide that authorization, Hebrews 1:2-3, Isaiah 52:13-14, 54:1. _________________ God needs no defending, and always begs the premise. For belief of any kind, always needs self-auditing.

Tvebak
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:10 am Post subject:

brainout wrote:

Tvebak: imagine you are standing in front of a canvas. Before your eyes, dots form. You know in advance what those dots will be, but instead of causing them, you AUTHORIZE them to be freely whatever they are. So they play, like fractals. You GAVE them the 'life' to do that. You know what the picture will become (kinda like that Jesus Painting video you can see on Youtube). You don't stop it.

Over time, the dots grow and grow and propagate on their own. Dots of time. STILL on the same canvas, like a Georges Seurat painting. And no matter how many dots there are, they are all still on the same canvas, and you like what you see, even all the horror. Because, what you ordained, was TRUTH BE FREE.

No matter how long time lasts -- forever -- the dots will just keep on being on the canvas, the picture being completed more and more, never-ending.

Welcome to Omniscience. No forcing of free will. Instead, love of Freedom, and Truth.

Sorry it might be late at night. And I have a lot of other things on my mind, but what on earth are you talking about?

Cheers
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Yes, we have a "soul"; but it's made of lots of tiny robots. - Daniel Dennet

It's mine "." ...

brainout
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject:

I'm trying to describe how Time looks to Omniscience. It's ok, if you don't get the analogy just ignore it. I thought you'd enjoy it. I meant it to please you. _________________ God needs no defending, and always begs the premise. For belief of any kind, always needs self-auditing.

Tvebak
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject:

brainout wrote:

I'm trying to describe how Time looks to Omniscience. It's ok, if you don't get the analogy just ignore it. I thought you'd enjoy it. I meant it to please you.

Alright, well a painting has limits. There goes the omniscience.

I think brainout that you and I think very different. My guess is that we have a completely different set of ways to expres ourselves and have a different view on how logic works. We definitly make our thoughts about the world in a completely different matter, so we might "shoot" past eachother quite a few times.

Cheers
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Yes, we have a "soul"; but it's made of lots of tiny robots. - Daniel Dennet

It's mine "." ...

brainout
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:49 am Post subject:

Tvebak, yeah, we might keep shooting over each other, but we'll enjoy it, just the same. This thread on Time begs the question of what constitutes Infinity. I'm trying to answer it by a metaphor of a huge canvas which gradually piles up with dots that make a beautiful picture, analogous to how Georges Seurat painted. Dots adding atop each other, each one slightly different, deepens the image or fills it out, but still all the dots are on the same canvas. That's how time (each dot being a bloc of time) can keep on going, yet stay the same. Infinity is a stasis, One Big Now. It's a CHARACTER, so neither mass nor energy. We misname as "infinity" the constant progression or regression (development and downfall), whether of numbers, or of a lifetime. And it keeps on going. But look: that's merely a FUNCTION of FINITY, and itself is a continual cycle of beginnings and endings. In the larger structure, taking into account the everlasting soul (which I know you don't believe in, humor me here), the soul keeps on being alive in time, so there always are more dots it lives in, as it were. So the dots gradually fill out the canvas. But the canvas remains the same. The One LOOKING at the canvas, is Omniscient. Knows how the picture will turn out in advance, insures its freedom to fractalically (sp) make itself. That's why free will and Divine Sovereignty co-exist. All this presumes God, of course, but if God then God loves FREEDOM AND TRUTH the most. Else, no god exists at all. The hard thing to accept is that if God Who Loves Freedom and Truth, then that HAS to mean bad is free to exist, too. No shaving of any truth, whether good truth, bad truth, any truth, BECAUSE truth. Now an Omnipotent God can 'decide' what will be truth. But look: if He decides that Truth be anything but Free, then it's no longer really truth. I'll stop here. Either the concept begins to make sense by now or does not. If not, forget it, np. _________________ God needs no defending, and always begs the premise. For belief of any kind, always needs self-auditing.

Mutley
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:57 am Post subject:

Tvebak wrote:

Mutley wrote:

Fine. I clarified.

ok but I still see it as problem in your argumentation.

Your argument as I understand it was about "the future" being "a creation of our mind" and therefore there's nothing to "predict". right?

No, the key distinction here is that I said that the concept of the future is not necessarily inaccurate at all, it just isn't real. It's always a mental construct, an prediction or an expectation. Remember, when the future comes to fruition, it is the present moment. so in that respect, the future can never exist except as a mental expectation, regardless of how accurate the expectation is or not.

Tvebak wrote:

you said wrote:

But anyways "an omniscient god" should still know every dimensions and therefore also know the outcome of "free will".

Cheers

Every actual existing dimension, but the future doesn't exist. It's a mental construct. So we can say that God would be an unbelievably good predictor, but that doesn't mean that free will can't alter that prediction.

_________________
If it is peace you want, seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth. --Anthony DeMello

FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT