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Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

And how did the Quranic verse you've provided contradicts with the Hadiths....

The Quran says pray and the hadith says five times....

The Quran says apostates are lured and misguided by Satan and the hadith said and therefore they should be killed...

Contradiction would have been if Quran says that apostates should be left to be judged by Allah and hadith says kill them!!!

Can you follow the above logic!

First of all, Let me assure you that Islam is the only religion that avocates logic and reason. therefore as a Muslim , I love to be logical..

As I told you the Ahadiths elaborate the Quranic teaching complying the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran...

When the Glorous Quran says pray, then comes how to pray.. and when to pray. The Ahadits gives you that answer..

When The GLorious Quran speaks about Apostate, it says...

What the Glorious Quran says about apostate:----Noble Verse 47.25

ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم

Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age)....

what question comes to your mind !

Hopefully no!...

quesions like who are actually apostate!?..Is there any catagory of that or not? could come in your mind..

But no question of punishment...read the verse once again...

You use Al-Hilali translation which is a joke for a native Arabic linguist like myself.

Please have a look at all translations"

Quote:

25 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْهُدَى الشَّيْطَانُ سَوَّلَ لَهُمْ وَأَمْلَى لَهُم
ْ
Shakir 47:25 Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.

yusufali 47:25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.

Pickthal 47:25 Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein.

Al-Hilali 47:25 Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitân (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allâh) prolonged their term (age).

There is absolutely no reference to prolonging age here and the verb of "Umley Lahum" is still referring to Satan not Allah!!!

First of all, the fact is that you have problem with translation not the intention thats a pretty good sign for this debate .

plzz..Dont enunciate the word NATIVE SPEAKERS as that will make you more biased because if your language base is in colloquial form then your understanding could be worse then any non Native speakers of Arabic.

If ou choose any of the established translations then also in your mind th equestion of punishment will not come to play with...

Do you find any indication of punishing apostates?!!
Somewhere in the Glorious Quran?...

May Allah bless all

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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

quesions like who are actually apostate!?..Is there any catagory of that or not? could come in your mind..

But no question of punishment...read the verse once again...

You use Al-Hilali translation which is a joke for a native Arabic linguist like myself.

Please have a look at all translations"

Quote:

There is absolutely no reference to prolonging age here and the verb of "Umley Lahum" is still referring to Satan not Allah!!!

What sort of an answer is this????

Cut to the chase and show the Arabic words referring to prolong life and using Allah as a subjective and not Satan.

Please don't try to fog off the point I made. Stick to the topic and show me the Arabic words in the verse that proves your claim. Simple!
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All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject:

You obviosuly believe that the hadith of killing apostates is "Israeliat"! and the Sirah of the prophet and Sahabah are made up in parts....So how about we stick to the Quran....Shall we???? _________________ A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness. www.all-brains.blogspot.com

Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

quesions like who are actually apostate!?..Is there any catagory of that or not? could come in your mind..

But no question of punishment...read the verse once again...

You use Al-Hilali translation which is a joke for a native Arabic linguist like myself.

Please have a look at all translations"

Quote:

There is absolutely no reference to prolonging age here and the verb of "Umley Lahum" is still referring to Satan not Allah!!!

Dear,

The topic is .... PUNISHMENT OF APOSTATES IN ISLAM

And I am forever in the TOPIC.

Hope the same from you..

All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject:

QURAN ONLY QUESTION:

Quote:

34
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ
وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيّاً كَبِيراً

Shakir 4:34 Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

yusufali 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Pickthal 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Al-Hilali 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.

How do you justify Allah's behavior against women in this verse? And what do you think of the beating punishment?
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All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

Dear,

The topic is .... PUNISHMENT OF APOSTATES IN ISLAM

And I am forever in the TOPIC.

Hope the same from you..

You're playing dodge ball here and it's quite clear! I will save you your face and move to a Quran only topic as above.

You believe that apostates should be left for God to judge and that's ok with me.
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Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject:

Wait We havent yet finished our discussion on APOSTATES in the light of GLorious Qruan then the Ahadiths... Here I will go for all the English translation of that verse... 47:25 ان الذين ارتدوا على ادبارهم من بعد ماتبين لهم الهدى الشيطان سول لهم واملى لهم Yusuf Ali: [047:025] Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes. Sher Ali: [047:025] Surely, those who turn their backs after guidance has become manifest to them, Satan has seduced them and holds out false hopes to them. Shakir: [047:025] Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. Pickthall: [047:025] Lo! those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein. Sale: [047:025] Verily they who turn their backs, after the true direction is made manifest unto them; Satan shall prepare their wickedness for them, and God shall bear with them for a time. Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan: [047:025] Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age). Palmer: [047:025] Verily, those who turn their backs after the guidance that has been manifested to them - Satan induces them, but (God) lets them go on for a time! Arberry: [047:025] Those who have turned back in their traces after the guidance has become clear to them, Satan it was that tempted them, and God respited them. Dr. Munir Munshey : [047:025] They turned away, even though the guidance itself had convinced them of its truth. Therefore, Shaitan deceived them and gave them false hope! Rodwell: [047:025] But as to those who return to their errors after "the guidance" hath been made plain to them, Satan shall beguile them, and fill them with his suggestions. There you see that no less than four translators have used God... Anywayz,, as this is not the topic I wont go further on that.. So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject:

Then comes who are apostates? and is there any classification of them?.. What do you know.

All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.
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All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

Then comes who are apostates? and is there any classification of them?..

What do you know.

Apostate point is over. It seems that you don't want to touch the beating wife issue with a 10 foot pole!

It's quite tricky I know, but hey....it's your Quran!

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