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Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.

Dear A_B,

I really dislike to be misinterpreted . I told you that what would be the line of explanation, didnt I?..

Atfirst the Glorious Quran on a certain topic..Then on that same topic the Ahadiths...

How many times I will have to clarify this my dear brother.

After getting a result from the Glorious Quran, we will get the result from Ahadiths and after that we would be able to find the original picture.

Let us be patience on this topic of Apostates.

I aint rejecting Ahadiths. Talk about The Glorious Quran then comes ahadiths..You will see that how the Ahadiths comply with the teaching of the Glorious QUran..

All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.

Sure...and I agree with you...Quran did no prescribe the death penalty for apostates and hadith did.

You believe that the Quran is superior to hadith and whenever there is a contradiction between the two, the Quran rule should be applied!

I have shown you a logical equation of contradiction, which you did not accept!

We now move on, leave this to the audience to make up their mind on and we focus on other topics...

I see you still avoiding the wife beating verse!
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A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.
www.all-brains.blogspot.com

Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.

Sure...and I agree with you...Quran did no subscribe the death penalty for apostates and hadith did.

You believe that the Quran is superior to hadith and whenever there is a contradiction between the two, the Quran rule should be applied!

I have shown you a logical equation of contradiction, which you did not accept!

We now move on, leave this to the audience to make up their mind on and we focus on other topics...

I see you still avoiding the wife beating verse!

First of all, a Sahih Hadith never contradicts with the fundamental teaching of the Glorious Quran..A sahih hadith elaborates the fundamental QURANIC TEACNING..DDOESNT CONTRADICT..

CONTRADICT MEANS GOING AGIANST , AND ELABORATE MEANS GIVING PROPER EXPLANATION.

When you tried to prove contradiction , you were refuted

...

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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.

...

Excuse me sir!

So when Allah say no death to apostates in the Quran and the Sahih of the hadiths says death to them, what do you call that?

p.s: This will be the last post in response of apostasy before we move to the "wife beating" verse!
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Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.

...

So, you have found that in the Glorious Quran there is no talking of punishment for apostates.
Right.

Now, lets go for hadiths..

Plz do quote those Ahdiths,,
And let us find what they contain..

All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.

...

So, you have found that in the Glorious Quran there is no talking of punishment for apostates.
Right.

Now, lets go for hadiths..

Plz do quote those Ahdiths,,
And let us find what they contain..

I hope your command of the English language is better than your Arabic!

The apostate point is over!!!

We have now moved the to a "Quran only" inquiry.

Please go to the wife beating post and answer the questions directed at you.

Please comply with the etiquettes of one on one debate.

Thank you
All_Brains
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A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.
www.all-brains.blogspot.com

Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

So, whats the final result about apostate we get from the Glorious Quran?..then We will talk about Ahadiths on this issue.

Cool! I was only sussing you out! Eventually all Muslims reject many hadiths after debating for a while.

From this point on I am only talking Quran with you.

...

So, you have found that in the Glorious Quran there is no talking of punishment for apostates.
Right.

Now, lets go for hadiths..

Plz do quote those Ahdiths,,
And let us find what they contain..

Dear you are most welcome,

Its really an astounding fact that you are forgetting what I told you the simple line of explanation.

1. The Glorious Quran
2. Noble Ahadiths
3. Combined explanation .
4. Ultimate result.....

Apostates

Scholars of the four schools (madhahib) classified apostasy into three (3) categories: beliefs in the heart, actions committed by certain parts of the body, and sayings with the tongue. Ar-Ramliyy, from the school of Imam ash-Shafi^iyy, classified apostasy into these three categories and gave examples of each in his book, Explanation of Minhaj, as did Imam an-Nawawiyy in his book, Rawdat at-Talibin. Qadi ^Iyad and Imam Muhammad ^Ulaysh from the Malikiyy school gave examples of these three (3) types of apostasy. Likewise did Imam Ibnu ^Abidin and Badr arRashid from the Hanifyyy school and Imam alBuhutiyy from the Hanbaliyy school. Ibn asSubkiyy said in his book At-Tabaqat : " Imam Al-Ash^ariyy , his students and all Muslims do not disagree upon that he who says a blasphemous word or he who does a blasphemous doing is a blasphemer ( kafir). He is not a believer in Allah, and he shall remain in Hellfire forever, even if he knew the truth in his heart. This is a case of scholarly consensus; not even two Muslims would disagree on that matter.

The Muhadith, Hafidh, Faqih and Linguist Murtada Az-Zabidiyy said: " the scholars from the four schools (madhhab) authored in exposing the types of apostasy."

The scholar's classification of apostasy into these three categories facilitates one's learning and understanding of the subject--thereby making it easier to avoid falling into it. Classification as such can be easily understood from different ayat in the Qur'an. In Surat al-Hujurat, Ayah 15, Allah said:

which means: [The believers are those who believe in Allah and His Messenger, and they do not doubt in that belief.] This ayah reflects that category of apostasy pertaining to beliefs in the heart. In Surat Fussilat, Ayah 37, Allah said:

which means: do not prostrate for the sun or the moon, rather prostrate for Allah Who created the sun and the moon.] This ayah reflects that category of apostasy pertaining to actions committed by different parts of the body. In Surat at-Tawbah,

Ayah 74, Allah said:

which means: [They swear by Allah that they did not utter, and they have said the word of blasphemy and blasphemed after having been Muslims.] This ayah reflects that category of apostasy pertaining to sayings.

Each one of these three categories of apostasy is divided into many subdivisions, and the scholars gave many examples of each.

An example of the first category of apostasy--beliefs in the heart--is for one to have doubt in the existence of Allah or doubt in the message of Prophet Muhammad. Also blasphemous is to doubt in the message of any of the messengers or prophets of Allah known to be a messenger or a prophet by the layman and the scholar alike, such as Adam, Ibrahim, ^Isa, or Musa. Doubting in the revelation of the Qur'an to Sayyidina Muhammad is blasphemy, as is doubting about matters such as the Day of Judgment, the existence of Paradise and Hell, or other such matters upon which there has been scholarly consensus, such as Reward and Punishment. Doubting in matters which are not commonly known among the Muslims--layman and scholar alike--like the existence of the Basin (Hawd) that the believers will drink from prior to entering Paradise, is not blasphemy except if one was stubborn about it in that he knew this matter is part of the Religion and still denies it.

Included in the category of apostasy pertaining to beliefs in the heart is to believe anything other than Allah exists without a beginning. This was the belief of the Greek philosophers, and following in their footsteps, Ibn Taymiyyah, who said the kind of the world exists without a beginning. Only Allah exists without a beginning and His attributes are eternal and everlasting and do not change. Everything else is a creation of Allah and has a beginning to its existence. Qadi ^Iyad, alMutawaliyy, and Ibn Hajar al^Asqalaniyy, and others established the scholarly consensus (ijma^) on the blasphemy of he who believes the world exists without a beginning.

Renouncing any of the attributes of Allah, known by ijma^ He is attributed with--such as knowing about everything is blasphemy. Also blasphemous is he who renounces that Allah is attributed with Power, Will, Knowledge, Hearing, Sight, or Speech (Kalam). Renouncing any of these attributes of Allah is blasphemous because the mind alone is sufficient in knowing that Allah must be attributed with these attributes, i.e., these attributes are a condition for the status of Godhood and as such, one is not excused by ignorance. Ibn alJawziyy said: "There is consensus on the blasphemy of he who negates Allah has power over everything."

He who believes that Allah resembles any of his creations in His Self, Attributes, or Doings has blasphemed. The one who believes Allah is a body or an illumination, or believes Allah exists 'above' in the heavens, or that He sits on the throne is a blasphemer. All these are attributes of the creation and are non-befitting to attribute to the Creator. If Allah was attributed with such attributes, He would have similars from among His creations, and Allah said in the Qur'an:

which means: [Nothing is like him.] If Allah was a body, He would be susceptible to the things all bodies are susceptible to like change, divisibility, and annihilation--all indications of shortage or weakness and nonbefitting to attribute to Allah.

Also is blasphemous he who renders lawful what is commonly known among the Muslims to be unlawful (such as adultery, fornication, stealing, or drinking alcohol,) or renders unlawful, matters commonly known among the Muslims to be lawful, (such as selling and marriage)--conditional in all this is the person is aware of the judgments of these matters in the Religion. Belying the Prophet, blemishing his attributes, or believing in the possibility of prophethood of someone after our Prophet Muhammad ( as the Qadiyany's claim ) is blasphemy.

The second category of apostasy, i.e., actions committed by different parts of the body, includes prostrating to an idol, or prostrating to the sun or the moon, or prostrating to any other creation with the purpose of worshipping it. Another example of apostasy of actions is knowingly throwing the Book of the Qur'an in the garbage, and likewise any papers containing Islamic information, as said by Ruyyaniyy and others, because this action displays mockery for the Religion. It is blasphemy to throw a paper on which is written a name of Allah, provided the thrower knows it is a name of Allah and is conscious of the fact when he threw the paper.

The third category of apostasy is that of sayings and the scholars said this category contains the most numerous cases. The Prophet said: <> Among these are great sins (kaba'ir) and blasphemy. In this age it has become common that people are so negligent and careless with their words to an extent some would utter words which turn them out of Islam, yet they do not deem such words sinful despite them being blasphemous. This complies with the saying of the Prophet, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam, related by at-Tirmidhiyy: <> The depth of 70 years falling is the bottom of Hellfire, and it is a place that only the blasphemers will reach. This hadith is explicit in showing uttering a word of blasphemy renders a person a non-Muslim--even if he does not deem that word harmful or a sin as such.

This hadith also shows that it is not a condition for committing blasphemy that the blasphemous saying be combined with either the belief in that saying or an action. The Prophet did not say: 'A person might utter a word and believe in it...' Nor did he say: 'A person might utter a word and act in blasphemy...' Nor did he say: 'A person might utter a word in seriousness...' Rather, he said: 'A person might utter a word he thinks harmless...' A similar hadith related by al-Bukhariyy and Muslim is proof that it is not even conditional that one must know the judgment of the uttered blasphemous word for him to have committed blasphemy.

Uttering blasphemous words out of anger does not excuse a person from committing blasphemy. Imam anNawawiyy said: "If a man was angry with his child or slave and hit him severely, then another person asked him, 'How can you do this? Aren't you a Muslim?' and to that his deliberate answer--though angry--was, 'No,' he blasphemed." This was said by Hanafiyy scholars as well as others.

In his hadith, the Prophet warned us against anger. His reply to a man who came to him asking for advice was, <> The Prophet warned us against anger because anger is not an excuse. Not controlling it can lead a person to various sins, including blasphemy.

The scholars mentioned that the third category of apostasy, apostasy of sayings, is like the sea that has no shoreline--meaning the examples could go on and on, and they cited many examples in their books--again, a warning to people not to speak words similar to them. For example, to curse Allah is blasphemy. He who curses Allah is not a Muslim. It is blasphemy to curse one of the Prophets or one of the Angels, as stated by Qadi ^Iyad To declare a Muslim a kafir without a valid reason causes the person to become a non-Muslim, as was mentioned by Mutawalli and al-Ghazaliyy. At-Tahawiyy said that to attribute to Allah any attribute of the creation--like age or time, body or place, organs or instruments, colors or shapes; or to say Allah has a partner or a child--all are blasphemous sayings. Also, intending to blaspheme in the future contingent upon the happening of a certain incident makes the person a blasphemer immediately.

Let the person take heed of the advice and warnings of the Prophet. Let him be extremely cautious not to let his tongue drive him to a destructive situation. As mentioned by Imam alGhazaliyy, the tongue has such a small size but the crime (sin) it could commit could be so great. Other scholars said the tongue is like a fierce beast which will attack you if you do not tie it up. Brother Muslim, learn well this subject of apostasy in an effort to avoid committing any of it. It is an obligation on every Muslim to protect his faith against whatever invalidates, interrupts and terminates it.

Then, if apostasy occurred from one, it is an obligation on him to immediately return to Islam by leaving out what caused him to apostate and uttering with the Testification of Faith (two shahadas) with the intention of clearing himself of apostasy. Left on him is the obligation to regret having committed apostasy and to intend not to go back to something similar in the future.

All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject:

Dear I_F I have left your above post regarding apostasy as a final post from you in that matter. Any further posts regarding this matter may be subject to Moderation, as I think you have been deliberately avoiding the "beating of wives" verses. Please submit your answer and refutation with regards to the beating of the wife. Thanks All-Brains _________________ A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness. www.all-brains.blogspot.com

Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Dear I_F

I have left your above post regarding apostasy as a final post from you in that matter.

Any further posts regarding this matter may be subject to Moderation, as I think you have been deliberately avoiding the
"beating of wives" verses.

Please submit your answer and refutation with regards to the beating of the wife.

Thanks
All-Brains

Hellow A_B,

For the Islamic courtesy, I will not post on the topic of apostasy more. But still, it is worth mentioning that We havent gone through the the simple line of explanation to reach the ultimate result that what is the punishment of apostasy in Islam..

Anywayz..I will now focus on your second topic of beating wife..Do tuned on!

Kindest regards

All_Brains
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Kindest regards

Thanks I_F, you're quite a gentleman!

I will await your feedback an views on the "beating the wives" verse!

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A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.
www.all-brains.blogspot.com

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