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Intellectual_fighter
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Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 51

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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:07 am Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Dear I_F

I have left your above post regarding apostasy as a final post from you in that matter.

Any further posts regarding this matter may be subject to Moderation, as I think you have been deliberately avoiding the
"beating of wives" verses.

Please submit your answer and refutation with regards to the beating of the wife.

Thanks
All-Brains

Hellow A_B,

For the Islamic courtesy, I will not post on the topic of apostasy more. But still, it is worth mentioning that We havent gone through the the simple line of explanation to reach the ultimate result that what is the punishment of apostasy in Islam..

Anywayz..I will now focus on your second topic of beating wife..Do tuned on!

Kindest regards

Thanks I_F, you're quite a gentleman!

I will await your feedback an views on the "beating the wives" verse!

الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا (4:34)

Meaning of the Words
For the three words fa'izu, wahjaru, and wadribu in the original, translated here ‘speak to them in a persuasive manner’, ‘leave them alone (in bed - fi'l-madage'),’ and ‘have intercourse’, respectively, see Raghib Lisan al-'Arab and Zamakhsari. Raghib in his Al-Mufridat fi Gharib al-Qur'an gives the meanings of these words with special reference to this verse. Fa-'izu, he says, means to 'to talk to them so persuasively as to melt their hearts.'
(See also v.63 of this Surah where it has been used in a similar sense.)

Hajara - Wahjaru (do not touch or moleste them)
Hajara, he says, means to separate body from body, and points out that the expression wahjaru hunna metaphorically means to refrain from touching or molesting them. Zamakhshari is more explicit in his Kshshaf when he says, 'do not get inside their blankets.'

Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding women guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

English language is not powerful enough when it comes to translating the meanings of the Arabic of the Quran. Nor for that matter, is any other language on earth. So, all we have is translations of meanings according to the best understanding of the translators.

The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning. Let us examine them.

Here is what we find from the scholars of the Arabic language:

Daraba (to have intercourse, not to beat)
Raghib points out that daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quotes the expression darab al-fahl an-naqah, 'the stud camel covered the she-camel,' which is also quoted by Lisan al-'Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean 'to strike them (women).' This view is strengthened by the Prophet's authentic hadith found in a number of authorities, including Bukhari and Muslim: "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" There are other traditions in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad bin Hanbal and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying: "Never beat God's handmaidens."

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

Daraba (to set forth, to make a clear statement or proclamation)

One of the key rules of understanding words of the Quran is to go to other places in the Quran to investigate the usage in other places. This word is used by Allah in other places in the Quran to mean "set forth" or "sets up for you" or "makes known to you" - as is demonstrated in the following verses:

Surah Ar-Ra'd (13:17) yadribu Allahu al-amthala

“Thus Allah sets forth a parable”
[here the word "yadirbu" is from the exact same root da-ra-ba]

Surah Ibrahim (14:24): Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan .. “Don’t you see how Allah sets forth a parable?..”

And again in the next verse: Surah Ibrahim (14:25) wa yadribu Allahu al-amthala li-naasi
“..and Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
[again the word yadirbu is from da-ra-ba]

Surah An-Nur (24:35) wa yadribu Allahu al0amthala lin-naasi
“And Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”

Surah Ar-Rum (30:2

Daraba lakum mathalan min anfusikum
“He sets forth for you a parable from yourselves..”

Surah At-Tahreem (66:10) Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo..
“Allah sets forth an example for those disbelievers..”

In fact, the word daraba has not been translated to mean (beat) or (hit) or (strike) in any other verse of the Quran except this one.

The words for (beat) as in [to hit] found in Surah Baqarah 2:275 ... kama yaqoomu allathee yatakhabbatuhu ash-shaytanu mina almassi..
"..like the standing of someone beaten by the devil (Satan) leading him to insanity."

And in Surah Ta Ha 20:18 Allah Says, “Qala hiya Aasaya atawakkao Aalayha waahushshu biha Aala ghanamee waliya feeha maaribu okhra.”
"This is my stick, whereon I lean, and wherewith I beat down branches for my sheep and wherein I find other uses."
As you can see, these are not even related to the word (daraba).

Verses 34 and 35 in Surah An-Nisaa' need to be read together to understand this is the proper relationship between men and women in general and husband and wife specifically.

Islam seeks to hold the family together and to make peace and reconciliation between spouses. The next verse makes it clear what to do in the case where it seems that divorce may be the result of the uncorrected bad behavior. It stresses appointing arbitrators from both sides and seeks reconciliation.

The first part of 34 deals with all men taking care of all women. Then goes on to explain the wife's proper obedience to Allah because He is the One Who has ordained this relationship of provision and protection for her and to be appreciative and respectful of her husband, guarding herself and his property in his absence. The man is told the proper way to behave when he finds his wife not complying with decency and proper behavior of a Muslim wife. He has a direct order to begin with admonishing her and then if there is compliance to leave her be and don't give her a hard time about it. However, if this continues, he should not have sex with her and this makes it clear to her that he is most serious and this not a joke. Again, if she comes around then he is to let it go and not bother her about it. Finally, if she still insists on such lewdness and bad conduct, he is to make it clear to her in no uncertain terms that they are going to be heading for separation or even divorce unless she comes back to proper behavior. Again, if she complies, then he should not bring it up and return to the bed with her.

And of course, this is all in an effort to translate one short but powerful phrase from Arabic to English. The sources are quoted herein and there may be other interpretations but the only acceptable ones are those based on the teachings of the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him.

And as always, Allahu 'Alim (Allah is the Knower)

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

In the past, some translators of this verse have mistakeningly used the word "beat" or "hit" or even "scourge" (as in the case of an old translation) to represent the word "daraba" in Arabic. This is not the opinion of all scholars especially Raghib and Zamakhshari as mentioned above and those who are well grounded in both Islam understanding and the English language.

the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

Therefore, in the end we can say that there nothing that can be called wife beating in Islam.

Islam is the religion of truth. None can deny it by being logical..

May Allah bless all.

Kindest regards.

Intellectual_fighter
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Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 51

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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:22 am Post subject:

Mutley wrote:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

Islam is the religion of truth. None can deny it by being logical..

peek a boo......

Hellow dear Mutley,

As far as my thinking allows me to have an insight on one on one debate that everyone knows that there two person interact with eachother without being interrupted by anyother person.

But, its really surprising to find out that a senior member like you have breached the code..

By the way, the Logic is Islam and it is truth..

Cheers

All_Brains
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject:

Dear I_F I am afraid your interpretation of the verb "daraba" is nothing but a very poor attempt at trying to get out of this somewhat embarrassing dilemma!! I am also disappointed at your copy and past job. I would have expected a personal response from you based on your thinking. You have disagreed with the position and translation understood and taken by 99.9% of the Muslims of the translation of this word. Let me show you an example even using the English language. Hit this man - Idrab haza al-rajul I have hit this woman - Lakkad darabt hazeh al-mar'ah You've hit the jackpot Hit single The shit hit the fan I have hit rock bottom I was hit by the latest interest increase The above bolded examples of the word hit obviosuly don't mean to strike, but used the word hit in association with other words to give new meaning. Yadrebu Methalan - to give example is expectable with the right sequence of words. I am afraid that word "wa edrabahun" was not attached to any word association that may give the word "hit" a new meaning deviating from its main and primary meaning, "to strike". Also, does not follow the logic of issuing a series of escalated punishment to achieve the desired results: Why would 1. preach, admonish, advise 2. dersert in bed 3. then give an example!!!????? No 3 it's too similar 1 and 2 would be the harshest??? Your argument is linguisically as well as logically fallible and this is evident by the overwhelming opposition your argument faces from your fellow Muslims themselves. _________________ A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness. www.all-brains.blogspot.com

Intellectual_fighter
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject:

All_Brains wrote:

Dear I_F

I am afraid your interpretation of the verb "daraba" is nothing but a very poor attempt at trying to get out of this somewhat embarrassing dilemma!!

Dear A_B, Greetings, as in my previous , you have seen that the process of interpretation..

You know this"--
The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning.

Therefore, I dont think there reamins any more argument on that..

Thank you.

All_Brains
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:18 am Post subject:

Intellectual_fighter wrote:

All_Brains wrote:

Dear I_F

I am afraid your interpretation of the verb "daraba" is nothing but a very poor attempt at trying to get out of this somewhat embarrassing dilemma!!

It seems that you have scratched your head long at this one!

Yes, there is!!!!

Can you then explain why all Tafsir specialists, all translations and 99.9% of Muslims believe that the word "daraba" means to (hit/beat/strike/scourge)????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I will not accept your own personal endeavor, as it is not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Muslims and the entire scholars population.

Your effort is simply regarded as a poor attempt at apology.
_________________
A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.
www.all-brains.blogspot.com

All_Brains
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:20 am Post subject:

Since there is no sign of our Muslim friend I_F and no refute received, I think it's pretty clear to all the readers that Islam has no answer to these logical question and therefore I will be locking this thread. _________________ A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realized God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness. www.all-brains.blogspot.com

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