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Islam and democracy
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Islam and democracy
islam is directly against democracy
72%
 72%  [ 8 ]
islam is indifferent towards democracy
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
islam is for democracy
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 11

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:59 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.

egypt lebanon


Why not lets talk about the FUNDAMENTALIST Saudi and Iran or the GENOCIDAL Sudan, or the perpetual WARRING Somalia, or the CORRUPT Indonesia and Nigeria or the TERRORIST HOSTING Pakistan or the PERPETUAL BEGGARS in Palestine or the Church and Temple destroying, dhimmi making Terrorist hosting and supporting Malaysia, or the ungovernable Yemen or the DICTATORSHIP of Syria and Jordan.

There is not ONE Mohammedan country that is not rife with misogyny , Violence, corruption, and oppression against other religions. As A_B already said democracy in Egypt is a JOKE and in Lebanon the MOHAMMEDANS are doing everything they can to DESTROY democracy.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:
The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.


Hi Kafir

Well because democracy lacks in the countries which we think of as islamic it does not necissarelly mean that democracy and islam is to opposing entities. I'm not here to defend (at first) any views of the matter. What I would like is to people to give their views on the matter and argue them with some fx textual or historical sources (does the quran prohibit elections for instans)

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
a democracy is where people elect officials to go and make laws and such. but the laws can change. for example majority of america dont like war so democrats take over congress.

islam law is based off of qu'ran. so in that sense it is dictatorship since one can not just say "oh, let us change this qu'ranic law."

however islam is democratic in the sense that elections are permissable to elect those to ENFORCE islamic law.

it is indifferent towards it. not exclusive but not inclusive.


Please show me the Muslim countries that have a democratic political process.

egypt lebanon


Ibnishaq

You forgot I am from Egypt. There is no democracy their mate! It's fake.

Mr. Mubarak has been there since 1981!!! almost 27 years with one president.

And guess who's the likely heir??? His son.


Ahh... some disagrement. Wonderful.

Well first of all it's a hard task to explain what exaclty "a democracy" is (many have tried to argue for a definition in heavy, thick and difficult books. Some of this I will return to later), but lets include one thing that is certain to be included in the matter of democracy; - making laws.

Now as I see it A_B is arguing that islam is against democracy, because the quran is "the divine law" and nobody is "allowed" to change the words of the quran therefore one cannot "improve" or "alter" these laws.

Shaq is arguing that democracy is indifferent because that one can elect others to interpretet "the divine law" of the quran. This pose a problem in my opinion; how does the quran position itself on the matter of trafic of cars?
I have to disagree with your argument, shaq. "Allowing" election of people to "interpret the divine law" does not make "democracy". Maybe we could call it "theodemocracy"!

Cheers

PS. I would like to have the second voter for "indifferen" to give some thoughts. My guess would be BMZ or Ahmed?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.


Hi Kafir

Well because democracy lacks in the countries which we think of as islamic it does not necissarelly mean that democracy and islam is to opposing entities.


I did not say that the lack of democray in Islamic countries means that Islam and decomocracy are incompatible, or that democracy is desirable.

Quote:
I'm not here to defend (at first) any views of the matter. What I would like is to people to give their views on the matter and argue them with some fx textual or historical sources (does the quran prohibit elections for instans)

Cheers


Democracy does not mean elections, either.  Democracy means rule by the majority.  I will give you two very explicit examples of democracy --  three wolves and two sheep voting on whether or not to have mutton for dinner.  Another example is three rapists and two women voting on whether or not to rape the women.

Now, I will be the first to agree that democracy is a flawed concept of government given the examples I have just given, but where does Islam incorporate this concept?

Even if you go beyond the strict definition of democracy to the concept of self rule, there is nothing in Islam that promotes self rule.  The only law is the law of Allah, and that is tyrannical by its very nature.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.


Hi Kafir

Well because democracy lacks in the countries which we think of as islamic it does not necissarelly mean that democracy and islam is to opposing entities.


I did not say that the lack of democray in Islamic countries means that Islam and decomocracy are incompatible, or that democracy is desirable.


No, that was just an assumption on my side  Very Happy you comment was right in the tail on some comments on the matter.

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
I'm not here to defend (at first) any views of the matter. What I would like is to people to give their views on the matter and argue them with some fx textual or historical sources (does the quran prohibit elections for instans)

Cheers


Democracy does not mean elections, either.  Democracy means rule by the majority.  I will give you two very explicit examples of democracy --  three wolves and two sheep voting on whether or not to have mutton for dinner.  Another example is three rapists and two women voting on whether or not to rape the women.

Now, I will be the first to agree that democracy is a flawed concept of government given the examples I have just given, but where does Islam incorporate this concept?

Even if you go beyond the strict definition of democracy to the concept of self rule, there is nothing in Islam that promotes self rule.  The only law is the law of Allah, and that is tyrannical by its very nature.


So your opinion regarding islam and democracy is that because one cannot alter "gods" laws then the foundation of democracy is shaken to the core, ie. I would like to change the inheritance law, or prohibit totally to hit women, I would be altering "gods" law and therefore islam and democracy is not congruent, since democracy would leave the possibllity to alter laws open.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
kafir forever wrote:
The bottom line is that within Islam, the concept of democracy does not exist.


Hi Kafir

Well because democracy lacks in the countries which we think of as islamic it does not necissarelly mean that democracy and islam is to opposing entities.


I did not say that the lack of democray in Islamic countries means that Islam and decomocracy are incompatible, or that democracy is desirable.


No, that was just an assumption on my side  Very Happy you comment was right in the tail on some comments on the matter.

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
I'm not here to defend (at first) any views of the matter. What I would like is to people to give their views on the matter and argue them with some fx textual or historical sources (does the quran prohibit elections for instans)

Cheers


Democracy does not mean elections, either.  Democracy means rule by the majority.  I will give you two very explicit examples of democracy --  three wolves and two sheep voting on whether or not to have mutton for dinner.  Another example is three rapists and two women voting on whether or not to rape the women.

Now, I will be the first to agree that democracy is a flawed concept of government given the examples I have just given, but where does Islam incorporate this concept?

Even if you go beyond the strict definition of democracy to the concept of self rule, there is nothing in Islam that promotes self rule.  The only law is the law of Allah, and that is tyrannical by its very nature.


So your opinion regarding islam and democracy is that because one cannot alter "gods" laws then the foundation of democracy is shaken to the core, ie. I would like to change the inheritance law, or prohibit totally to hit women, I would be altering "gods" law and therefore islam and democracy is not congruent, since democracy would leave the possibllity to alter laws open.

Cheers


Of course, the concept of democracy introduces the possibility to alter God's law, assuming that God's law can be objectively determined, which it cannot

My opinion regarding Islam and Democracy is that the concepts are totally incompatible.  Islam is the tyrannical imposition of Mohammed's inventions of Allah, and Democracy is the tyrannical imposition of the majority at the expense of the minority.  To me, they are both reprehensible and mutally exclusive because the source of tyranny is different.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:

Of course, the concept of democracy introduces the possibility to alter God's law, assuming that God's law can be objectively determined, which it cannot

My opinion regarding Islam and Democracy is that the concepts are totally incompatible.  Islam is the tyrannical imposition of Mohammed's inventions of Allah, and Democracy is the tyrannical imposition of the majority at the expense of the minority.  To me, they are both reprehensible and mutally exclusive because the source of tyranny is different.


Hi Kafir

I'm not gonna start to go into a debate about "democracy" and "how it should be" right now, but I appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers

PS. I would still like to hear from anyone who disagrees with what has been said so far.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ahmed or BMZ

If you read this I would appreciate your input on the matter. I remember reading somewhere that Ahmed was an active democrat on the last election in Australia.

So how do you consider the relationship bewteen islam and democracy?

Cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
Hi Ahmed or BMZ

If you read this I would appreciate your input on the matter. I remember reading somewhere that Ahmed was an active democrat on the last election in Australia.

So how do you consider the relationship bewteen islam and democracy?

Cheers



Hello

I have taken note of it and will reply to it inshaalllah after I fisnish transferring my web site from the USA to Australia which I'm currntly doing for the last 48 hours and have about a week to go

Thanks


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