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What Is God?
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All_Brains
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
brainout wrote:
Yeah, All-Brains and Mutley, Zero means that there is something BEYOND what you can see and measure, that's why.  Wow, you both really walked into THAT one!  LOL!

Thanks, Fathom!  You're fast!


How is the zero beyond what we can see??? We invented it!!!


Did we?

If nothing existed in a specific place at a specific point in time before the existence of mankind, was zero then not represented?

Or, does zero only exist because we acknowledge it?

Which is true?


Yes, we did.

And it was not from the moment we invented the zero, but from the moment that we perceived the existence of nothingness.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
brainout wrote:
Yeah, All-Brains and Mutley, Zero means that there is something BEYOND what you can see and measure, that's why.  Wow, you both really walked into THAT one!  LOL!

Thanks, Fathom!  You're fast!


How is the zero beyond what we can see??? We invented it!!!


Did we?

If nothing existed in a specific place at a specific point in time before the existence of mankind, was zero then not represented?


Or, does zero only exist because we acknowledge it?

Which is true?


Zero is an invented mental concept used to represent a complete lack of something. It doesn't necessarily, exactly mean nothing, it means a lack of something. Zero birds. Zero trees. It's always zero something. It was probably first thought of when someone had two apples, then ate one and had one left, then ate that one, so we created a concept for representing that we have no apples left when the neighbor asks to borrow one.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, All-Brains, you don't understand what I meant but Fathom did. It's not magical, it's a principle of truth, of equilibrium.  Of balancing.  Of zeroing out, bringing home, uniting both ends of a spectrum, of Daniel 9:24 and Ephesians 1:23.  Fathom "gets" all that.  It would take longer to explain it to you.

Truth has properties, which "zero" evidences.  So I'm not explaining further, since Fathom already has begun to see it.  I myself didn't see it until answering kafir forever in here the other day, with the "If A, then -A" Hupostasis postulate (of Divine Decree).
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
brainout wrote:
Yeah, All-Brains and Mutley, Zero means that there is something BEYOND what you can see and measure, that's why.  Wow, you both really walked into THAT one!  LOL!

Thanks, Fathom!  You're fast!


How is the zero beyond what we can see??? We invented it!!!


Did we?

If nothing existed in a specific place at a specific point in time before the existence of mankind, was zero then not represented?

Or, does zero only exist because we acknowledge it?

Which is true?


Yes, we did.

And it was not from the moment we invented the zero, but from the moment that we perceived the existence of nothingness.


What you are telling me is that the concept of nothing did not exist until mankind discovered it. But what of animals which existed before mankind who, while tracking their prey, lose sight of it and observe nothing there to attack?

I'm sorry, but it is impossible for me to logically believe that mankind conceptualized nothingness. When something is not evident, then it is not evident to everything.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mutley wrote:
Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
brainout wrote:
Yeah, All-Brains and Mutley, Zero means that there is something BEYOND what you can see and measure, that's why.  Wow, you both really walked into THAT one!  LOL!

Thanks, Fathom!  You're fast!


How is the zero beyond what we can see??? We invented it!!!


Did we?

If nothing existed in a specific place at a specific point in time before the existence of mankind, was zero then not represented?


Or, does zero only exist because we acknowledge it?

Which is true?


Zero is an invented mental concept used to represent a complete lack of something. It doesn't necessarily, exactly mean nothing, it means a lack of something. Zero birds. Zero trees. It's always zero something. It was probably first thought of when someone had two apples, then ate one and had one left, then ate that one, so we created a concept for representing that we have no apples left when the neighbor asks to borrow one.


I can appreciate mankind's invention of "0" to represent "nothingness,' but I cannot accept that it was mankind who first realized that nothing existed. What of the early primate who, after eating all his bananas, discovered there is nothing left to eat?

Logically, the assertion is eliminated.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
Mutley wrote:
Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
brainout wrote:
Yeah, All-Brains and Mutley, Zero means that there is something BEYOND what you can see and measure, that's why.  Wow, you both really walked into THAT one!  LOL!

Thanks, Fathom!  You're fast!


How is the zero beyond what we can see??? We invented it!!!


Did we?

If nothing existed in a specific place at a specific point in time before the existence of mankind, was zero then not represented?


Or, does zero only exist because we acknowledge it?

Which is true?


Zero is an invented mental concept used to represent a complete lack of something. It doesn't necessarily, exactly mean nothing, it means a lack of something. Zero birds. Zero trees. It's always zero something. It was probably first thought of when someone had two apples, then ate one and had one left, then ate that one, so we created a concept for representing that we have no apples left when the neighbor asks to borrow one.


I can appreciate mankind's invention of "0" to represent "nothingness,' but I cannot accept that it was mankind who first realized that nothing existed.

Logically, the assertion is eliminated.


"Nothing" does not exist. It's not an actual thing, it's a mental construct used to represent the lack of something. At most, we can say that it is referring to a state.

Fathom wrote:

What of the early primate who, after eating all his bananas, discovered there is nothing left to eat?


I don't think the primate came up with a concept of "nothing" or zero, it just knew it didn't have any more bananas. And, like I said, the concept of zero always refers to something. Zero bananas. But notice, it's never zero nothings
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
I'm sorry, but it is impossible for me to logically believe that mankind conceptualized nothingness. When something is not evident, then it is not evident to everything.


Nice choice of words, Fathom.  Very precise.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mutley wrote:
"Nothing" does not exist. It's not an actual thing, it's a mental construct used to represent the lack of something. At most, we can say that it is referring to a state.


A state of what? Being? Existence?

If you can claim that "nothing" exists as "an actual thing," despite having no evidence to support its existence, how then can you claim that a God could not exist when the circumstances regarding its evidence are exactly the same as "nothing?"

How can you be so certain that "nothing" can exist, yet claim God cannot?

Mutley wrote:

Fathom wrote:

What of the early primate who, after eating all his bananas, discovered there is nothing left to eat?


I don't think the primate came up with a concept of "nothing" or zero, it just knew it didn't have any more bananas. And, like I said, the concept of zero always refers to something. Zero bananas. But notice, it's never zero nothings


The postulation that the primate has no bananas is no different than if you yourself had no bananas; both of you have nothing, and both of you know it.

Just because we can write a symbol of "0" on a piece of paper does not mean we have defined the existence of nothing any more than the primate. At the end of the day, both you and the primate have no bananas, and both of you are aware of this "nothing" in your hands.

What you seem to be suggesting is that a construct of what is obvious somehow denoted a greater awareness. I put it to you that a hungry primate is every bit as aware of not having any bananas as you would be.

If "nothing" can exist without evidence, then how can you claim that a God cannot exist without evidence?

This appears contradictory in logic.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
No, All-Brains, you don't understand what I meant but Fathom did. It's not magical, it's a principle of truth, of equilibrium.  Of balancing.  Of zeroing out, bringing home, uniting both ends of a spectrum, of Daniel 9:24 and Ephesians 1:23.  Fathom "gets" all that.  It would take longer to explain it to you.

Truth has properties, which "zero" evidences.  So I'm not explaining further, since Fathom already has begun to see it.  I myself didn't see it until answering kafir forever in here the other day, with the "If A, then -A" Hupostasis postulate (of Divine Decree).


Oh believe me, I do understand it! I just don't accept it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
brainout wrote:
Yeah, All-Brains and Mutley, Zero means that there is something BEYOND what you can see and measure, that's why.  Wow, you both really walked into THAT one!  LOL!

Thanks, Fathom!  You're fast!


How is the zero beyond what we can see??? We invented it!!!


Did we?

If nothing existed in a specific place at a specific point in time before the existence of mankind, was zero then not represented?

Or, does zero only exist because we acknowledge it?

Which is true?


Yes, we did.

And it was not from the moment we invented the zero, but from the moment that we perceived the existence of nothingness.


What you are telling me is that the concept of nothing did not exist until mankind discovered it. But what of animals which existed before mankind who, while tracking their prey, lose sight of it and observe nothing there to attack?

I'm sorry, but it is impossible for me to logically believe that mankind conceptualized nothingness. When something is not evident, then it is not evident to everything.


HI Fathom

I am sure many animals saw falling apples and all sort of fruit from trees, yet none of them came up with the concept of gravity!

My example very much resembles the tree that fell and there was no one around to hear it....The sound still indeed exists, but is irrelevant! At least to us humans, who are heavily involved in this discussion.

For if the human race did not exist, such reflection of ideas on world events would too cease to exist!

Just like God needed humans to exist, nothingness has become something through this very conversation.

I hope you get what I am trying to say.


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