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noah enter ark twice or what?
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ibnishaq
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: noah enter ark twice or what?  Reply with quote

genesis 7 go there

then go to verse 7 that says that noah and his sons, his wives and his sons wives entered the ark.
then in verse 11 the flood happened "all the fountains of the great abyss burst forth and the floodgates of the sky were opened."

however then go to verse 13 and it says that noah and his sons, his wife, and his sons wives enetered the ark! then it says that the flood happened in verse 17.

so why repeat itself right after? why do verse 7 say he goes into ark and verse 11 say flood happened, but then verse 13 they go into the ark and 17 flood happens?

docuemntary hypothesis P and J were involved.

how you can trust such a book?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: noah enter ark twice or what? Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
genesis 7 go there

then go to verse 7 that says that noah and his sons, his wives and his sons wives entered the ark.
then in verse 11 the flood happened "all the fountains of the great abyss burst forth and the floodgates of the sky were opened."

however then go to verse 13 and it says that noah and his sons, his wife, and his sons wives enetered the ark! then it says that the flood happened in verse 17.

so why repeat itself right after? why do verse 7 say he goes into ark and verse 11 say flood happened, but then verse 13 they go into the ark and 17 flood happens?

docuemntary hypothesis P and J were involved.

how you can trust such a book?


No, they don't know how to read Hebrew prose. Style of Hebrew prose in Bible is always 1) summary first, 2) followed by detail. So it forms a circle, ending where it began. So Genesis 7:7 summarizes the theme, acts as a title, Entrance into the Ark. (Same style as in Genesis 1:1).

Then from Gen7:8ff, you get the details of how that happened. That's why it ends with their entrance into the Ark. 7:7 told you what story was coming, and verse 17 finished that part of the story. Makes reading Bible a lot easier, as you can skim it faster. Remember, in the old days people had to memorize the Bible, so it helped them to have all these bookmarks (7:7 acts like a bookmark, too). Or, like bookends, 7:7 being one 'end', and 7:17 being the other 'end'. That mattered a bunch when passing on the story, so you could audit your memory (or the writing) to see if you missed something. People were real careful to properly remember and record the Word of God.

Therefore, you'll see that style a lot in Bible narratives, especially Kings and Chronicles (which put everyone to sleep), and often even in Isaiah. You have to see the Hebrew to know if it's a summary or a separate event.

For example, in Genesis 1:1 you have a function of both a Title and a separate event from Genesis 1:2, because the tense in Genesis 1:2 changes, and you have an adversative waw. In the Greek LXX this is stressed by the transitional particle de and the imperfect of eimi. Oh, I'm getting too technical, so I'll stop here. Point is, it's not a contradiction, but a style of writing often used throughout the Bible to make it easier to read and remember. So if you know the style, you'll find it easy. If you are ignorant of the style, you'll think it's a contradiction. Ok: but you're not ignorant, anymore!
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ibnishaq
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so why have i never even once heard a rabbi mention this? they know a lot more about hebrew then you xians!

question
how much knowledge on biblical hebrew and greek do you have?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
so why have i never even once heard a rabbi mention this? they know a lot more about hebrew then you xians!

question
how much knowledge on biblical hebrew and greek do you have?


The people you've heard don't teach the Bible in the original languages. I've been under a pastor who only teaches the Bible in the original languages for over 34 years. Daily. There are over 15,000 hours of exegesis on everything from Genesis to Revelation. So that's how one person can know something which many others don't know.

Ibnishaq, you're just playing games, pretending to be interested. What you want to do instead, is insinuate accusations, but you better improve your skills and knowledge, before you try this approach with anyone who's actually been schooled in thinking. You want to praise the Koran and debunk Bible which the Koran calls valid in over 20 ayahs? Fine. But do it better than you have, thus far. We're not children, here.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i know 2 ex christians who both knew hebrew and greek i can give you e-mails to both.

one was from egypt. he had the entire bible memorized in hebrew and greek. he converted to islam. another is from florida. he did not have the bible memorized but he knows where everything is. he converted to islam in 96. he too knows hebrew and greek.

now i am not playing games here no no i am just telling you that from my conversations with these ex christian hebrew speakers, they never mention anything that you mention.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ibnishaq wrote:
i know 2 ex christians who both knew hebrew and greek i can give you e-mails to both.

one was from egypt. he had the entire bible memorized in hebrew and greek. he converted to islam. another is from florida. he did not have the bible memorized but he knows where everything is. he converted to islam in 96. he too knows hebrew and greek.

now i am not playing games here no no i am just telling you that from my conversations with these ex christian hebrew speakers, they never mention anything that you mention.
Fine, you know two ex-christians. You yourself cannot read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. I can. Linguistics and literary style in a language is a structured thing, and one should professionally learn it before ASSuming an error which doesn't exist. In order to read Bible, therefore, men go to seminary and college, during which they are trained in "textual criticism", "hermeneutics", and the linguistics of the languages in Bible. I've had the benefit of learning those things. Perhaps your two friends, have not.

More importantly, you yourself by hearsay from them think you can just accuse, and instead all you do is expose your ignorance of basic linguistic technique -- and, the fact that you are playing games. It's very obvious, and the dishonesty is not appreciated.

Criticize the Bible all you like. Praise the Koran all you like. But do it HONESTLY and SMARTLY. Or you will end up making the Koran look bad and the Bible look good, as indeed you have done thus far. Ahmed Bahgat in FFI is honest. You, my friend, are not.

Worse, you show disrespect to your own Koran, as well as to the Bible. You pretend interest in the Bible, and you hallow the Koran based on how many times a word shows up in it. That mocks God. Be interested in either Koran or Bible because of its CONTENT. Debunk Bible due to CONTENT you UNDERSTAND, not based on hearsay. Be honest, in other words. Dishonest faith is no faith at all.

Are you angry yet? Fine! I hope so! Then invite your two friends to come to this forum, let the debate begin! I'm sure All-Brains would appreciate their input. Memorizing a book does not mean you understand what it says. Knowing where things are in a book doesn't mean you understand what those things mean. So of course if they in fact do understand something, wouldn't their input here be appreciated?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey dude i love the bible! i read it every day with great joy and i cry when i read the gospels because they are beautiful.

but i do not think it is from god and so i just treat is as a book.

now please tell me all your credentials in the bible? i am just wondering because you seem like you have a lot of knowledge!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please read my last post. Your flattery now seems insincere when you ask again a question you asked before and I answered you before. Your claim to love the Bible's words also seems insincere when you're so quick to accuse it absent knowledge. You don't just ask questions, you accuse. That's fine, accuse: but don't pretend. Dishonesty will not get a good response from me.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you said you know greek and hebrew but that is all. you never said how long you studied it and all.

we can not discuss things unless we first know one's credentials. by credentials i do not mean the name of the seminary and all that. just how long and such.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the post I was talking about. I have now bolded the text in blue, which previously answered your question about my knowledge of Bible.

Again, feel free to argue whatever you like, but please do not be dishonest. I stop replying to people who play games. I hope you understand that you appear to be playing games. When a person answers you (whether All Brains or myself) you don't seem to hear the answer, and keep 'asking' the same 'questions'. That behavior is not appreciated. If you keep it up, do not expect me to reply. Sorry.

brainout wrote:
ibnishaq wrote:
so why have i never even once heard a rabbi mention this? they know a lot more about hebrew then you xians!

question
how much knowledge on biblical hebrew and greek do you have?


The people you've heard don't teach the Bible in the original languages. I've been under a pastor who only teaches the Bible in the original languages for over 34 years. Daily. There are over 15,000 hours of exegesis on everything from Genesis to Revelation. So that's how one person can know something which many others don't know.

Ibnishaq, you're just playing games, pretending to be interested. What you want to do instead, is insinuate accusations, but you better improve your skills and knowledge, before you try this approach with anyone who's actually been schooled in thinking. You want to praise the Koran and debunk Bible which the Koran calls valid in over 20 ayahs? Fine. But do it better than you have, thus far. We're not children, here.



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