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BMZ
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

BMZ wrote:

Baal wrote:

Now Ahmed. I think I saw you claim that Muhammad is not an Arabic word.

Helloooo!

Where did you see Ahmad claiming that?

BMZ

Salam bro

That's a clear cut lie, I never claimed that even any arabic word is not an aranbic word, this is plain stupidity and desperation by the kafirs

also bro, i bet the ignorant don't even know that Mahmoud or Mahmood which if taken as an adjective, it can apply to anything, even Jamad, i.e. non humans

Remeber the verse yhta syas something similar to Yabathaka Allah Maqaman Mahmouda

Salam mate

Salaam, Ahmed

Off course, I know that Baal lied as usual. That is why I asked him and placed the laughing emoticon.

Baal still thinks he is entertaining everyone on FFI and he is still in the FFI Mode. lol!

I don't think Baal would be able to understand Maqaam-am-Mahmuda.

Cheers, mate
BMZ

Tvebak
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:10 am Post subject:

Hi BMZ Maybe we should move the discussion on "muhammad" to the Quran-section and then you can continue on the matter of Apple_Pies other works here. What do you say? Cheers _________________ Yes, we have a "soul"; but it's made of lots of tiny robots. - Daniel Dennet It's mine "." ...

brainout
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:20 am Post subject:

I posted to Apple Pie to come here, since neither of you can read what he wrote. Every schoolchild knows kana means "to be", and HE SAID THAT in the "Jesus is God says Koran" thread; but you ERRONEOUSLY took it as meaning a pronoun, lol. FIFTEEN POSTS on that, Ahmed, me trying to SHOUT that no, it's the verb "to be". At first I thought maybe you couldn't read because you were viewing on your Blackberry. Now I realize you just wanted to lie. Which you're doing here, both of you. Now all the world can see that, too. Yeah, you prove what a fraud Islam really is. Thanks. _________________ God needs no defending, and always begs the premise. For belief of any kind, always needs self-auditing.

brainout
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Tvebak, Cooments on Apple_Pie's Misleading Post

BMZ wrote:

Let me quote this from Apple_Pie. Also note that he quotes, copies and pastes all the material from Wikiislam.

The link is at the bottom of his post. He wrote this on FFI:

Quote:

Apple Pie
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 634
Location: Houston
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject:

More Koranic evidence that Jesus is God Almighty...

قل إن كان للرحمن ولد فأنا أول العبدين سبحن رب السموت والأرض رب العرش عما
يصفون فذرهم يخوضوا ويلعبوا حتى يلقوا يومهم الذي يوعدون وهو الذي في السماء إله وفي الأرض إله وهو الحكيم العليم

Qul in kana lilrrahmani waladun faana awwalu alAAabideena subhana rabbi alssamawati waal-ardi rabbi alAAarshi AAamma yasifoona fatharhum yakhoodoo wayalAAaboo hatta yulaqoo yawmahumu allathee yooAAadoona wahuwa allathee fee alssama-i ilahun wafee al-ardi ilahun wahuwa alhakeemu alAAaleemu

Say: "Indeed on account of the most Merciful Son, so I myself the worshippers' first.” Glory be to the Lord (of) the heavens and the earth, the throne's Lord, from what they ascribe. So leave them alone; they indulged and they jest until they meet their day whom they were threatened. And He, whom upon the cloud, God, and upon the earth, God, and He, the wise, the one who knows. (43.81 – 84)

These ayahs proclaim that the Son is worshiped directly as deity.

They also proclaim that the Son is God, not only upon the earth, but in the Cloud upon which he returns...just as copied from the Holy Bible...
_________________
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Koranic_Bible

Now, look at the wrong translation that he provided in his post and distroted the whole meaning and the truth. The correct translation should be, in my own simple words:
"If the LORD really had a son, I would be the first one to worship him. What do they ascribe? Glory be to the LORD of Heavens, the Earth and the Throne. "

In other words, the verse is saying that if God had a son, God would have told and would not have hidden or kept that a secret. God would have told many millenia before to Noah, Abraham and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad later.

The verse is clearly refuting and rejecting the Christians' claim that God has a son. That is why we reject the absurdity that Jesus was a son of God.

You have some ex-Muslims and speakers of Arabic here. Please ask them if the verse is saying what Apple_Pie is presenting. I hope you can now see the bigotry of Apple_Pie. I will do some of his absurd posts later.

Cheers

BMZ

YOU DO NOT PROVE that "in kana" means the NEGATIVE. I asked that repeatedly in the "Jesus is God says Koran" thread, and got no answer. I don't debate the idea that it could mean EITHER positive or negative, but what's the GRAMMAR PROOF? You don't answer that, but merely assert it.

I asked, what's the equivalent of the subjunctive, for kana, or what particle in the sentence justifies an "if and it's NOT true" conclusion? No answer from you or Ahmed. So you again make no answer here. So you disprove nothing.

BTW, I don't agree with everything Apple Pie claims, either. I'm dead certain "Muhammed" references a real person, even though the name is not grammatically correct, as often in Hebrew names are made from doctrinal statements, in Bible. So they aren't proper names in Hebrew, either, but are instead applied to persons to communicate meaning. My own real name is not really a name but a sentence, given by my mother. So probably are your own real names. So I think Apple Pie is wrong here, to claim that no one named "Muhammed" actually existed. I've said that too, in that thread. He's not happy with my answer. So what? Doesn't matter. We don't have to agree.

But you guys take mere disagreement as a threat. So you come here. And you still don't prove anything. It would be nice if you did prove something. Ahmed has occasionally proved something quite well. For I do care WHAT GRAMMAR RULES justify a translation you or Ahmed provide, versus someone else. And so far, you BMZ never provide anything useful in that thread. Ahmed at least has tried to do so, despite his critics. Sometimes he's right and the critics are not. Sometimes, they are right. Ok, no big deal. But at least he tries. All you do, BMZ, is spew pointless assertions.

But Ahmed, you never answered the question on this "in kana" meaning, either. So answer it now or let the world know you have no answer.

For others, the subthread in question begins at FFI, "Jesus is God Says Koran", page 56.
_________________
God needs no defending, and always begs the premise. For belief of any kind, always needs self-auditing.

Last edited by brainout on Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:33 pm; edited 2 times in total

AhmedBahgat
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject:

Here is how I did AP two years ago on www.free-minds.org, he pissed off straight after and never came back:

January 04, 2006, 07:29:02 PM

Apple Pie wrote:

Thanks for affirming that Jesus is God.....!!!

I replied to him as follow:

January 04, 2006, 07:47:16 PM

AhmedBahgat wrote:

you are a manipulator and a liar, firstly I didn't say that, secondly PROVE YOUR CALIM THAT JESUS IS GOD FROM THE QURAN but not from the hebrow rubbish you post

now the onus is on your neck to prove that the Quran said jesus is god, and if you don't you will be classified in my books as a manipulator, a liar, a fabricator, a confused being and a lost soul

your call

He came back later with this proof:

January 04, 2006, 08:21:40 PM

Apple Pie wrote:

Sure thing...

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ

Obvioulsy he is an idiot to claim that the Quran says jesus is god then come back with the above line, here is what I told him:

January 04, 2006, 08:32:58 PM

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Excuse me sir

what that suppose to tell me exactly?, I could not see Isa's name any where in the verse neither I read that he is god

here is a the verse and the one before it:

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ (19)

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِندَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ (20)
[The Quran ; 81:19-20]

-> Verse 81:19 "Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger, "

-> Verse 81:20 "Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne"

Are you suffering from low IQ or somethin bro?, the verses are clear as light it is talking about prophet Mohammad, and even if you dispute that Mohammad was not mentioned, that is fine, you must at least concede, it was about one of Allah messnegers as 81:19 CLEARLY STATES "Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger, "

NEXT AP

He came back with the following rubbish:

January 04, 2006, 08:39:00 PM

Apple Pie wrote:

Now....try exegeting what it states...

Summary of 81.19

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ

Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin

81.19 Certainly His Word is a Holy message.

> Revelation tells us that the ?logos?, or Word, of God, is Jesus
> 81.19 begins by informing us of something that is ?inna?, or certain
> This thing that is certain is applied to ?qawlu?, or Word, via the personal pronoun ?hu?, or His, and possessive affirmative particle ?la? ? thus giving the Word as an inherent attribute of Him
> ?laqawlu? occurs three times in the Koran, and in each occurrence it is beyond any reasonable doubt that it directly refers to Jesus
> 81.19 also informs us that His Word is a ?kareemin?, or holy, ?rasoolin?, or message
> Sura 81 acknowledges Jesus as the Word of God

Summary of 81.20

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ

Thee quwwatin AAinda thee alAAarshi makeenin

81.20 Lord of power in the presence and possession of the throne, the established one.

> Revelation tells us that the Jesus occupies the Throne of God

> 81.20 builds upon 81.19 by informing us that His Word (i.e. Jesus) with the Holy Message, is ?thee? (genitive case) in possession of ?quwwatin? (singular), or the one (and only) power

> Amazingly, in addition to ?quwwatin? referring to power or strength, it also has the meaning ?and separately twisted portion of two or more which, being twisted together, compose the whole of a rope, and of a string, or thread?

> Thus, ?quwwatin? conveys the idea of two (or more) things intertwined to become one thing

> Revelation informs us that the Lamb is in the ?mesos?, or midst of the ?thronos?, or throne

> Likewise, 81.20 tells us that He is ?inda? (A particle used as a preposition to denote time and place), or in the presence of ?alAAarshi?, or the throne

> There are numerous Koranic examples where allah is ?Lord of the throne?; thus, when the Word (i.e. Jesus) is referred to as Lord of the Throne ? there can be no doubt that Jesus is God

> 81.20 specifically utilizes ?thee? twice in this one ayah; the first is to signify possession of the singular power of the Word, and the second is used to signify the possession of the throne by the Word

> Revelation tells us that the one sitting on the throne is of the appearance of ?sardinos?, or a reddish brown variety of chalcedony

> Interestingly, 81.20 describes the ?arshi?, or throne as ?a red sapphire, which glistens with the light of the supreme?

> 81.20 closes by mentioning ?makeenin?, or the established one, from the root ?makuna? (meaning he made Him to have dominion) which clearly indicates that the Word (from 81.19), is God Almighty

> The authors of the Koran copied the Book of Revelation, and, more importantly, they understood who the Biblical Jesus is. Revelation clearly shows us the deity interchangeability between God and Jesus, as they are one in the same. Ironically, this ayah also demonstrates the same exact thing by showing that the two are, in fact, one in the same

I replied as follow:

January 12, 2006, 12:24:42 AM

"Apple Pie" : Now....try exegeting what it states...

"AhmedBahgat" : Sure, but I hope you don?t mean ?try manipulating what it states...?
Look bro, I don't have time to waste, I will give you a max of 3 lies and if reached, I have to terminate my discussion with you, that is what my book says bro, sorry.

"Apple Pie" : Summary of 81.19
إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin

"AhmedBahgat" : Good, you pronounced it right, did you do it, or you just copied it then pasted it?

"Apple Pie" : 81.19 Certainly His Word is a Holy message.

"AhmedBahgat" :I guess this is the proposed translation by you to 81:19, thank you for that, let's now examine your translation word for word:

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ, you translated it as : Certainly His Word is, oh please AP, you can fool a non Arabic speaker, but what makes you think that you can fool an Arabic speaker like me?, well here is your first lie, the verse never related the Qawlu to any entity, why the hell you added his to it?, this is how it should be : Most surely it is the Word of

1 lie lost, 2 lies left

رَسُولٍ, you translated it as : message, LOL bro, I guess with this one you can't even fool the NON Arabic speakers because they know very well what Rasoolin means, which surely means Messenger, so to translate it as Message has to be considered a clear cut lie

2 lies lost, 1 lie left

كَرِيمٍ , you translated it as : a Holy, bro what non sense is this, what makes you hallucinate thinking there is sense in what your post?, the Arabic word MUST be translated as : An honoured

You've just lost your last lie bro, bad luck

Let's recap your lies:

You translated the following Arabic verse:

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
[The Quran ; 81:19]

To this:

Certainly His Word is a Holy message ٍ
[Misleading and wrong translation by AP]

BUT IT SHOULD BE:

Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger
[The Quran ; 81:19]

Your 3 clear cut lies are highlighted in red and the correct translation are highlighted in blue

As I said AP, you are allowed 3 lies only per comment, and you consumed it all in a sentence that is 6 words, wow this means 50% of what you say is nothing but lies, this is no good bro, you will look very bad like this, I'm sure you lost creditability already, I tell you what bro, try to be honest and you may gain it back, did Santa come to you this Xmas?, I'm sure Santa does not visit liars, can you please confirm?

The rest of you comment MUST be ignored bro, too many lies by you and I hate dialoguing with liars

Apple Pie wrote:

? Revelation tells us that the ?logos?, or Word, of God, is Jesus
? 81.19 begins by informing us of something that is ?inna?, or certain
? This thing that is certain is applied to ?qawlu?, or Word, via the personal pronoun ?hu?, or His, and possessive affirmative particle ?la? ? thus giving the Word as an inherent attribute of Him
? ?laqawlu? occurs three times in the Koran, and in each occurrence it is beyond any reasonable doubt that it directly refers to Jesus
? 81.19 also informs us that His Word is a ?kareemin?, or holy, ?rasoolin?, or message
? Sura 81 acknowledges Jesus as the Word of God

Summary of 81.20

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ

Thee quwwatin AAinda thee alAAarshi makeenin

81.20 Lord of power in the presence and possession of the throne, the established one.

? Revelation tells us that the Jesus occupies the Throne of God
? 81.20 builds upon 81.19 by informing us that His Word (i.e. Jesus) with the Holy Message, is ?thee? (genitive case) in possession of ?quwwatin? (singular), or the one (and only) power
? Amazingly, in addition to ?quwwatin? referring to power or strength, it also has the meaning ?and separately twisted portion of two or more which, being twisted together, compose the whole of a rope, and of a string, or thread?
? Thus, ?quwwatin? conveys the idea of two (or more) things intertwined to become one thing
? Revelation informs us that the Lamb is in the ?mesos?, or midst of the ?thronos?, or throne
? Likewise, 81.20 tells us that He is ?inda? (A particle used as a preposition to denote time and place), or in the presence of ?alAAarshi?, or the throne
? There are numerous Koranic examples where allah is ?Lord of the throne?; thus, when the Word (i.e. Jesus) is referred to as Lord of the Throne ? there can be no doubt that Jesus is God
? 81.20 specifically utilizes ?thee? twice in this one ayah; the first is to signify possession of the singular power of the Word, and the second is used to signify the possession of the throne by the Word
? Revelation tells us that the one sitting on the throne is of the appearance of ?sardinos?, or a reddish brown variety of chalcedony
? Interestingly, 81.20 describes the ?arshi?, or throne as ?a red sapphire, which glistens with the light of the supreme?
? 81.20 closes by mentioning ?makeenin?, or the established one, from the root ?makuna? (meaning he made Him to have dominion) which clearly indicates that the Word (from 81.19), is God Almighty
? The authors of the Koran copied the Book of Revelation, and, more importantly, they understood who the Biblical Jesus is. Revelation clearly shows us the deity interchangeability between God and Jesus, as they are one in the same. Ironically, this ayah also demonstrates the same exact thing by showing that the two are, in fact, one in the same

"AhmedBahgat" : The above MUST be ignored
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]

AhmedBahgat
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Tvebak, Cooments on Apple_Pie's Misleading Post

brainout wrote:

But Ahmed, you never answered the question on this "in kana" meaning, either. So answer it now or let the world know you have no answer.

Look sir, normally, I don't answer freaks, however I always reserve my right to answer them when I choose, and in this case I have chosen to answer you

In kana: only means something called Istifham, i.e. a sort of a qeustion

i.e. If there is a child to Allah then Mohammed is going to be the first believers in such because Allah would have told him as such, now the Quran answered the question to mohammed that Allah never have had any children nor He will ever have one, i.e. Mohammed is sort of mocking them because he knew the answer in advance that it is not appropriate for the God to have children, however the confused christians keep deluding themselves and it will take them no where, this is because nor the bible neither the Quran suggest the slighest that jesus was a son of god

you are too confused pal, you need to face your truth then handle it

Salam
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]

brainout
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject:

Ahmed, stop telling me what I already know. What you have NOT proven is the question I asked about "in kana" in Sura 43.81. "In kana" is VERY common in the Qu'ran, appearing 43 times, at least (per islamcity's search engine). And in those 43 times, it's used to mean BOTH "if, and it's true" and "if, and it's not true". You have not demonstrated where in 43.81 that there is any grammar or verb mood or other particle to show that "in kana" means "if and it's NOT true". Instead, you ran away from the thread. And you've still not demonstrated it, but as usual brought up a lot of other stuff which is NOT germane. If you can't answer why, just say so. I'm not at all sure that "in kana" must be interpreted affirmatively, either. I'm not siding with Apple Pie on this. But I have no reason to reject that translation of YES, it's true -- and you're not providing any proof to say it's not. Instead, you are condescending, supercillious, just like your movies. So if you choose not to answer again, just fine. I'm tired of your posturing and fake love of the Qu'ran. You love your ego, and you love telling everyone how they will go to hell, and you love hating. That's now patently obvious, given how you trash Apple Pie with ZERO ATTENTION to what he was saying. If he's wrong, you should be able to explain why without acting like a two-year old and making silly videos that only a teenager would enjoy. _________________ God needs no defending, and always begs the premise. For belief of any kind, always needs self-auditing.

AhmedBahgat
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject:

brainout wrote:

Ahmed, stop telling me what I already know. What you have NOT proven is the question I asked about "in kana" in Sura 43.81. "In kana" is VERY common in the Qu'ran, appearing 43 times, at least (per islamcity's search engine). And in those 43 times, it's used to mean BOTH

"if, and it's true" and
"if, and it's not true".

You have not demonstrated where in 43.81 that there is any grammar or verb mood or other particle to show that "in kana" means "if and it's NOT true". Instead, you ran away from the thread. And you've still not demonstrated it, but as usual brought up a lot of other stuff which is NOT germane.

If you can't answer why, just say so. I'm not at all sure that "in kana" must be interpreted affirmatively, either. I'm not siding with Apple Pie on this. But I have no reason to reject that translation of YES, it's true -- and you're not providing any proof to say it's not. Instead, you are condescending, supercillious, just like your movies.

So if you choose not to answer again, just fine. I'm tired of your posturing and fake love of the Qu'ran. You love your ego, and you love telling everyone how they will go to hell, and you love hating. That's now patently obvious, given how you trash Apple Pie with ZERO ATTENTION to what he was saying.

If he's wrong, you should be able to explain why without acting like a two-year old and making silly videos that only a teenager would enjoy.

Well, it seems you totally know no arabic, and for me, I donlt waste my time with such people, nor that I want you to even know what it means

now you have baal and a_b on this web site who will be aboe to slam dunk ya with ease, that is if they are noot hypocrites

again and for the final, I'm not intetested to discuss the Arabic Quran with confused freaks like you and AP, I'm only interested to keep laughing at ya guys and at the same time keeping my time not wasted
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]

BMZ
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:

AhmedBahgat wrote:

now you have baal and a_b on this web site who will be able to slam dunk ya with ease, that is if they are not hypocrites

again and for the final, I'm not intetested to discuss the Arabic Quran with confused freaks like you and AP, I'm only interested to keep laughing at ya guys and at the same time keeping my time not wasted

I am not sure about Baal, Ahmed but I am sure that All_Brains will slam dunk straightaway.

Salaams
BMZ

BMZ
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject:

brainout wrote:

Brainout,

You just don't realise what pickle you are in by parroting out "in kaana", "in kaana" and "in kaana".

Do you think "in kaana" is one word? What is the meaning of the Arabic word "in" and another Arabic word "lau"?

Do you think German, Arabic, Urdu, Thai, Malay/Indonesian grammars are exactly the same as that of English?

Let me give you some simple translations of only this part of the vesre "In kaana lir-Rahmane walad"
Note that Rahman is the name of God Almighty in the verse.

1. If Rahman had a son

2. If there were a son of Rahman

Which words have I used for kaana here in my translations, given above?

In kaana is not a word on its own.

The verses under discussion simply mean: "If God had a son, I would have worshipped him straightaway." In other words, the verse is clearly saying that God has no son. It does not mean God has a son.

Qur'aan clearly, bluntly and flatly rejects the Christians' CLAIM that Jesus is the son of God. Qur'aan calls Jesus as an obedient slave of God.

BMZ

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