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who is the owner?
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ygalg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:29 am    Post subject: who is the owner?  Reply with quote

an old lady walking in the street, suddenly a person on skateboard pass and grab her purse and flees.
another person noticed and began pursuing the thief.
eventually he got the thief. took the purse. but surprisingly he kept to purse to himself in pretext (using the quote) "he who steals from a thief is exempt from punishment ".

is he the new rightful owner, after all he sweat for it?

if yes, does the old lady ceased to be the rightful owner?
if not, what does that makes him?
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kafir forever
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: who is the owner? Reply with quote

ygalg wrote:
an old lady walking in the street, suddenly a person on skateboard pass and grab her purse and flees.
another person noticed and began pursuing the thief.
eventually he got the thief. took the purse. but surprisingly he kept to purse to himself in pretext (using the quote) "he who steals from a thief is exempt from punishment ".


Irrelevant.  Whether that is true or not, it says nothing about the transfer of the ownership RIGHTS to the purse.

Quote:
is he the new rightful owner, after all he sweat for it?


Again, irrelevant

Quote:
if yes, does the old lady ceased to be the rightful owner?
if not, what does that makes him?


Both are thieves.

The issue is the rightful transfer of ownership RIGHTS, not the transfer of the property itself.  For the RIGHT to ownership to be properly transferred, the last rightful owner must VOLUNTARILY transfer the RIGHT to ownership to someone else who accepts that transfer voluntarily, which never happened.  Assuming the old lady was the rightful owner, then she is still the rightful owner because all subsequent property transfers did not include any ownership RIGHTS, and were without the consent of the rightful owner.

This is an example of why the concept of property rights is so essential to the concept of liberty and the proper behavior of human beings respecting these rights in a civilized society.
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ygalg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consider we have no records that can confirm Jews conquered the land which known today state of Israel as the bible prescribes the events.
premise they are the owners, as no previous owners (if indeed existed) came and claim it back. the later were conquerers. the islamists like to claim the land is stolen by the Jews from islamists (so called Palestinians). but Omar have not liberate the land from the Byzantines as he have not return it to the owner. but kept the theft for himself thus same theft exchanged thieves. he replaced the culprit with another one. till present day the stigma stitched to islmaists but they are not aware of it or simply living in denial.
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kafir forever
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ygalg wrote:
consider we have no records that can confirm Jews conquered the land which known today state of Israel as the bible prescribes the events.
premise they are the owners, as no previous owners (if indeed existed) came and claim it back.


OK.

Quote:
the later were conquerers.


I am not sure who you mean here.  Do you mean those who followed the Jews?

Quote:
the islamists like to claim the land is stolen by the Jews from islamists (so called Palestinians).


Then they need to present evidence of that.  Also, when did this supposedly happen? Are you referring to the Canaanites, or are you referring to the Arabs living in what is now Israel in 1948?  My understanding is that in 1948, Jews purchased the land from the so called Palestinians.  If that is true, and if the purchase was voluntary on both sides of the transactions, then the claim vanishes.  If the purchase transactions were coerced, then there would be a claim.

Quote:
but Omar have not liberate the land from the Byzantines as he have not return it to the owner. but kept the theft for himself thus same theft exchanged thieves. he replaced the culprit with another one. till present day the stigma stitched to islmaists but they are not aware of it or simply living in denial.


I do not understand what you are saying here.  I know English is not your native language, and I am not criticizing it, but I really do not know what you mean here -- "till present day the stigma stitched to islmaists but they are not aware of it or simply living in denial"

"Stigma stitched to Islamists ..."? Do you mean "attached"?

"But they are not aware of it or simply living in denial"?  Who is "they" and in what are they in denial of?
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ygalg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
the later were conquerers.


I am not sure who you mean here.  Do you mean those who followed the Jews?
Byzantines, islamists...etc

Quote:
the islamists like to claim the land is stolen by the Jews from islamists (so called Palestinians).


Quote:
Then they need to present evidence of that.  Also, when did this supposedly happen? Are you referring to the Canaanites, or are you referring to the Arabs living in what is now Israel in 1948?  My understanding is that in 1948, Jews purchased the land from the so called Palestinians.  If that is true, and if the purchase was voluntary on both sides of the transactions, then the claim vanishes.  If the purchase transactions were coerced, then there would be a claim.

the later. but this Palestine are but political tool. it continues the Islamic land expansion.

Quote:
I do not understand what you are saying here.  I know English is not your native language, and I am not criticizing it, but I really do not know what you mean here -- "till present day the stigma stitched to islmaists but they are not aware of it or simply living in denial"

"Stigma stitched to Islamists ..."? Do you mean "attached"?

yep, attached.

Quote:

"But they are not aware of it or simply living in denial"?  Who is "they" and in what are they in denial of?

the islamists do not see the flaw in their premise to claim israel is their land where the rightful owner are the jews. the other lands they already hold such as the temple mount is jewish. yet they see it theirs.
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Baal
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yglag, how about if the lady is dead. And someone keeps her purse for few centuries and no one claims it? Now can he keep the damn purse?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ygalg wrote:
kafir forever wrote:

Quote:
the later were conquerers.


I am not sure who you mean here.  Do you mean those who followed the Jews?
Byzantines, islamists...etc

Quote:
the islamists like to claim the land is stolen by the Jews from islamists (so called Palestinians).


Quote:
Then they need to present evidence of that.  Also, when did this supposedly happen? Are you referring to the Canaanites, or are you referring to the Arabs living in what is now Israel in 1948?  My understanding is that in 1948, Jews purchased the land from the so called Palestinians.  If that is true, and if the purchase was voluntary on both sides of the transactions, then the claim vanishes.  If the purchase transactions were coerced, then there would be a claim.

the later. but this Palestine are but political tool. it continues the Islamic land expansion.

Quote:
I do not understand what you are saying here.  I know English is not your native language, and I am not criticizing it, but I really do not know what you mean here -- "till present day the stigma stitched to islmaists but they are not aware of it or simply living in denial"

"Stigma stitched to Islamists ..."? Do you mean "attached"?

yep, attached.

Quote:

"But they are not aware of it or simply living in denial"?  Who is "they" and in what are they in denial of?

the islamists do not see the flaw in their premise to claim israel is their land where the rightful owner are the jews. the other lands they already hold such as the temple mount is jewish. yet they see it theirs.


Thanks, ygalg.  I am getting it now.

So, if we accept the premise that the Jews are the rightful owners of the land we think of as Israel, and everyone who followed as conquerers stole it from their predecessors, then yes, the Jews are still the rightful owners.

One could argue, also, that the Jews conquered the land and stole it from the Canaanites, so their descendants would be the rightful owners, unless the Canaanites conquered it and stole it from others.  In any event, the Islamists are NOT the rightful owners under the principles I described.  In fact, there are probably no rightful owners of any land anywhere on earth under those principles.
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kafir forever
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
Yglag, how about if the lady is dead. And someone keeps her purse for few centuries and no one claims it? Now can he keep the damn purse?


Her descendants, if there are any, would still be the rightful owners.  If there are no descendants, then other principles would have to be invoked.
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Raza
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: who is the owner? Reply with quote

ygalg wrote:
an old lady walking in the street, suddenly a person on skateboard pass and grab her purse and flees.
another person noticed and began pursuing the thief.
eventually he got the thief. took the purse. but surprisingly he kept to purse to himself in pretext (using the quote) "he who steals from a thief is exempt from punishment ".

is he the new rightful owner, after all he sweat for it?

if yes, does the old lady ceased to be the rightful owner?
if not, what does that makes him?

I think everyone stole something in their lives, so there is no punishment for stealing.
And In my opinion, that quoted statement has flaws, because it is not just, nor fair. The old lady is still at loss; the law which we are all governed by are aimed to make the act of illegal crimes such as stealing as if it never occurred.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kafir forever wrote:

One could argue, also, that the Jews conquered the land and stole it from the Canaanites, so their descendants would be the rightful owners, unless the Canaanites conquered it and stole it from others.  In any event, the Islamists are NOT the rightful owners under the principles I described.  In fact, there are probably no rightful owners of any land anywhere on earth under those principles.

I have not missed that and added "consider we have no records that can confirm Jews conquered the land which known today state of Israel as the bible prescribes the events. premise they are the owners, as no previous owners (if indeed existed) came and claim it back."

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