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absurdities in the qu'ran
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: absurdities in the qu'ran  Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
brainout wrote:

All you know from Bible, is that his fall began 4106BC, which is when science finds evidence of CIVILIZATION, prevalent.  Duh.

As my best friend quips, "who knows if Lucy (discovered by Dr. Leakey) had a soul?"  Duh.  Soul is immaterial, so no matter how many or how old those humanoid relics, you can't know if they were human.  Apples and oranges, science and either Bible or Qu'ran.

Believe or not, your choice. Always a private matter, free. Very Happy


Quote:
The earliest known civilizations (as defined in the traditional sense) developed from proto-civilized cultures in Mesopotamia between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in modern-day Iraq, the Nile valley of Egypt, while other civilizations arose in Elam in modern-day Iran (especially those parts considered to be the "Fertile Crescent"), the Mehrgarh and Sindhu Valley region of modern-day Pakistan and Northwest India, and the parallel development of Chinese civilizations in the Huang He River (Yellow River) and Yangtze River valleys of China, and on the island of Crete and in Mycenaean Greece in the Aegean Sea, Persia in modern-day Iran, as well as the Olmec civilization and the Caral civilization in modern day Mexico and Peru. The inhabitants of these areas built cities, created writing systems, learned to make pottery and use metals, domesticated animals, and created complex social structures with class systems. Proto-civilized cultures developed as a late stage of the Neolithic Revolution, and pioneered many of the features later associated with civilizations. The oldest granary yet found, for instance, dates back to 9500 BC and is located in the Jordan Valley. The earliest known settlement in Jericho (9th millennium BC) was a Pre-Pottery Neolithic A culture that eventually gave way to more developed settlements later, which included in one early settlement (8th millennium BC) mud-brick houses surrounded by a stone wall, having a stone tower built into the wall.

Civilization

Brainout there's substantial evidences that there was humans well before 4.106 BC. and this little extract from wikipedia is just a small sample. Sorry to disrubt the topic of this thread again, but I found this comment very disturbing.

Cheers.


You have no evidence of a soul, since a soul is immaterial.  So all you have is biology, and since a "human" must have a soul to BE human per Bible, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison between both science and Bible, irrelevant to both.  Again, to me this is a completely dead issue, I was mentioning it only in passing to finish off the topic.  Sorry.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: absurdities in the qu'ran Reply with quote

brainout wrote:

You have no evidence of a soul, since a soul is immaterial.  So all you have is biology, and since a "human" must have a soul to BE human per Bible, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison between both science and Bible, irrelevant to both.  Again, to me this is a completely dead issue, I was mentioning it only in passing to finish off the topic.  Sorry.


Of course I have no evidence of a soul, that's because such things don't exist  Wink But I'm glad you introduced me to this way of thinking creationism. Had not been acquanted with it before.

Quote:
Yep, evolution is foolish, nope, I don't want to discuss it or open a new thread, I was just commenting on it in passing.  Been there, done that, decades ago, on evolution.  Belief in it or not, has zippo to do with belief pro or con God, because you can believe in both if you want, neither if you want, or just one of the two.  I object to evolution on logical grounds, as aforestated.  Love ya, Tvebak.  


Your cute too, but I must say I'm straight and have wonderful wife, so its a no go.

Again I just think its funny that you with your one hand dismisses evolution completely and then with your other hand says, "but if it's true it does not rule out my "god"". Nice touch  Very Happy

But yes we will just then have to agree on disagreeing on the fact of evolution.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And not to ripe the theme of this thread completely I will just say there's other absurdities in the quran aswell, a few examples:

- jonah in the whale
- moses and the sea
- the age people had back then
- meteorites/"shooting stars"/ or whatever it is chasing jinns
- eve created from adam

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It s always the same classical mistake !

BMZ as well as Ahmed fall for it, since they do not have much of other "ammunition" available !

They always fail when talking to atheists/agnostics, simply because their logic - tu quoque - look at christianism and its absurdities - does not work anymore !

Two wrongs do not make one right !

None of the arguments they bring up holds water, when looking at it...

In this thread on the council forum, I've asked a few questions, none of them got answered, just as usually brushed off, by no real argumentation at all...

The theme has not changed, they can put up as many threads they want, about other religions inconsistencies, it will not wipe away their own islamic NONSENSE !

If islam can't be defended by its own "standards", but needs other religions to justify its own existence, its a rather POOR and void attempt of making something out of nothing, and that does not work !

Here (Islam) we have some claims, nothing proved, and thats all !
Regardless if other religions claims are void just the same !

When will they ever understand ?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: absurdities in the qu'ran Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
brainout wrote:

You have no evidence of a soul, since a soul is immaterial.  So all you have is biology, and since a "human" must have a soul to BE human per Bible, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison between both science and Bible, irrelevant to both.  Again, to me this is a completely dead issue, I was mentioning it only in passing to finish off the topic.  Sorry.


Of course I have no evidence of a soul, that's because such things don't exist  Wink But I'm glad you introduced me to this way of thinking creationism. Had not been acquanted with it before.

Quote:
Yep, evolution is foolish, nope, I don't want to discuss it or open a new thread, I was just commenting on it in passing.  Been there, done that, decades ago, on evolution.  Belief in it or not, has zippo to do with belief pro or con God, because you can believe in both if you want, neither if you want, or just one of the two.  I object to evolution on logical grounds, as aforestated.  Love ya, Tvebak.  


Your cute too, but I must say I'm straight and have wonderful wife, so its a no go.

Again I just think its funny that you with your one hand dismisses evolution completely and then with your other hand says, "but if it's true it does not rule out my "god"". Nice touch  Very Happy

But yes we will just then have to agree on disagreeing on the fact of evolution.

Cheers


Beloved Tvebak, you're cute too but I didn't mean that pruriently.  I'm heartily glad you're married.  And I'm 54 years old, have gone over the evolution thing AD NAUSEAM for 30 years (I was of the generation when it began to be taught in America, under Eisenhower) so I am BORED with it.  Sorry!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
And not to ripe the theme of this thread completely I will just say there's other absurdities in the quran aswell, a few examples:

- jonah in the whale
- moses and the sea
- the age people had back then
- meteorites/"shooting stars"/ or whatever it is chasing jinns
- eve created from adam

Cheers


Except for the bolded stuff, all of what you call Qu'ran absurdities were taken from the Bible.  Idea

Since you weren't there then;  since God can do miracles, duh -- atheists always want to restrict God to natural law, so that God cannot be God no matter what He does -- then these "absurdities" you label are really miracles.  Well, except for longevity.  That's an actuarial life expectancy based on the quality of the biological tissue.  I do actuarial stuff for a living, and the longevity back then is not miraculous.  Biological mass degrades with successive generations, kinda like a copy of a copy of a copy made too many times.

Like miracles or lump them.  They are NOT natural phenomenon, because God is not restricted to the laws of creation.  God doesn't do miracles to show off.  What's supernatural for us is natural for God, and He does miracles 24/7 as part of His natural being.  But He does miracles, to TEACH.  Sadly, people only want God for His miracles, as if He were a circus clown.  We Christians don't really love God, we want Him to do pet tricks.  How sad, when He's the Most Gorgeous Person in the Universe.  Well, Three of them, but I digress...

Believe or do not, that's your free right.  And I'm heartily glad you have that freedom!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally, beloved Tvebak, I already know God created everything.  It won't be possible for science to prove that.  I don't care that science can't prove that.  I don't want creationism taught in schools, the parents have that job.  I want evolution taught in schools, but I want the theory (really a hypothesis and a lot of bombast) CLEANED UP, because I see how goofy it is.  So I don't want our youngsters to find out how goofy it is and then reject science.

For every time we get ticked off at science we go back to religion and I hate religion.  Satan invented religion.  So we need science.

Bible and science are apples and oranges.  There are no hunter gatherers in the Bible, the story BEGINS with a fully-linguistically-capable GENIUS named Adam, who is a taxonomist (genesis 2).  Then his first son Cain, builds a city.  So the Bible's story of SOULED CREATION begins with CIVILIZED man.  What happened prior, Bible doesn't cover.  You can't say how old the earth is, because Bible doesn't begin dating until Adam's FALL (genesis 3:15ff) in 4106BC.  So prior to that, is unknown.  Big gap between initial creation instantly in Genesis 1:1 and some undefined period of chaos, in Genesis 1:2 (tohu wa bohu are the Hebrew words, adversative waw starts the verse).

See, Christians don't know their Bible either.  Not my problem.  Sorry to seem cold, but I've already spent 30 years banging my head against the wall trying to explain this stuff.   It gets old, capisce?

What fixes evolution I already wrote out in my webpage, http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/Godevol.html .  Basically there need to be three elements, not two.  The THREE are mass, energy, and LIFE, which is neither mass nor energy.  You don't need to call "life" "god", and frankly I don't want it called "god", even though it IS "god", because people should be free to independently find out what "life" means.  That you do in the home.  But "life" obviously got lumped in the definition of mass and energy, which is why evolutionary theory is tautological, failing even the first law of math that a set contains itself.  But if "life" contains but is not mass/energy, then the theory WORKS and doesn't fail the first law of math.  See, you don't need a god concept to make the theory work.. FINALLY.  But you do need that third element.

On the reason why Evolution doesn't work mathmetically I wrote a semi-rant page:  http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/Evolshort.htm .  

I'm not saying you should read what I wrote.  I present the pages only so you know I'm not giving you short shrift on the question.  Veni, vidi, vici, ad absurdum.  J'ai vue.  Estoy aburrida con ese sujeto.  Sorry, I've forgotten my Italian and Chinese. Sad
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Last edited by brainout on Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
And not to ripe the theme of this thread completely I will just say there's other absurdities in the quran aswell, a few examples:

- jonah in the whale
- moses and the sea
- the age people had back then
- meteorites/"shooting stars"/ or whatever it is chasing jinns
- eve created from adam

Cheers


Except for the bolded stuff, all of what you call Qu'ran absurdities were taken from the Bible.  Idea

Since you weren't there then;  since God can do miracles, duh -- atheists always want to restrict God to natural law, so that God cannot be God no matter what He does -- then these "absurdities" you label are really miracles.  Well, except for longevity.  That's an actuarial life expectancy based on the quality of the biological tissue.  I do actuarial stuff for a living, and the longevity back then is not miraculous.  Biological mass degrades with successive generations, kinda like a copy of a copy of a copy made too many times.

Like miracles or lump them.  They are NOT natural phenomenon, because God is not restricted to the laws of creation.  God doesn't do miracles to show off.  What's supernatural for us is natural for God, and He does miracles 24/7 as part of His natural being.  But He does miracles, to TEACH.  Sadly, people only want God for His miracles, as if He were a circus clown.  We Christians don't really love God, we want Him to do pet tricks.  How sad, when He's the Most Gorgeous Person in the Universe.  Well, Three of them, but I digress...

Believe or do not, that's your free right.  And I'm heartily glad you have that freedom!


Hi Brainout

Quote:
Except for the bolded stuff, all of what you call Qu'ran absurdities were taken from the Bible.


That does not make any difference to me. I also think there's lot of absurdities in the bible. As to wether you think them as "examples" of "gods" power, feel free to. I still consider them as absurdities.

To the longevity of people back then no the livespan was short. Data suggest that people for instans around your "adams descent" lived for about an average of 35 years. Now some people might get of age, but not hundreds of years! As to your "acturial science" it is within one persons life-time you are talking about.

I will have a look at your "semi-rant" on evolution when I have the time to it. Bookmarked so I know where it is. But the URL for the second link did not work. You can sent it to me. Lets not disrubt this thread any further.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got your message.  Fixed the link.  Try it again, but I'm not asking you to read it.  Just wanted you to know I'm not declining discussion sans thought.  Bye, for awhile, beloved Tvebak.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
Got your message.  Fixed the link.  Try it again, but I'm not asking you to read it.  Just wanted you to know I'm not declining discussion sans thought.  Bye, for awhile, beloved Tvebak.


Thanks. Well I'm gonna read anyway. Always love to see what I disagree with.

Cheers and by and take care.


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