FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  Who is OnlineWho is Online   Join! (free) Join! (free)  
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
  • Welcome
  • Guest

  • Main Menu
  • Sticky Articles
  • Open Support Tickets
19:36
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT Forum Index -> The Qur'an
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BMZ
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 436



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:53 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

David wrote:
There are lots of verses in the Quran which say something like the following one:

He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa

I have always believed these verses referred to the Gospels in the Christian canon, but according to you they do not, so these verses are meaningless.

I'm beginning to feel very sorry for the Muslims.  No wonder what is said in the Quran about Jesus contradicts the true Christian Gospels and the Muslims accuse Christians of changing their Scriptures.

I knew the Quran seemed to copy the apocrypha, but I didn't know Muhammad did not have access to the Gospels in the Canon.  This explains a lot.

Why can't the Muslims see this?  Surely they have done the kind of research you have done.


David,

It is a good thing Muhammad did not have access to the gospels, otherwise he would have been accused of copying the gospels.

When Qur'aan refers to Injeel, it does not refer to the four gospels and the entire NT. The gospels are not the Injeel. NT is basically stories about Jesus. However, we can read and pick out the true Injeel part, no matter how little that content is.

Injeel is the part which was spoken out by Jesus. All else written and told by the four writers does not constitute Injeel.

Qur'aan does not talk much about Jesus. It just tells us that he was neither God nor a son of God.
Why should God have a son, anyway? What was the need of having a son? That is the thrust.

How do we know what belongs to Injeel, meaning what was said by Jesus? I will give you an example:


Quote:
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "


This sounds like a part of Injeel, directly uttered by Jesus. And look at what Mary said in John 20:18. She did not say she had seen her Lord and God. Also no other disciple said so.

Quote:
Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!"


Quote:
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


This definitely is not a part of Injeel. Also the doubting Thomas' alleged statement, which does not make any sense, goes against what Jesus declarede by repeating and confirming the Shema and said earlier. The gospels are full of such contradictions.

BMZ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
David
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 157



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
There are lots of verses in the Quran which say something like the following one:

He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa

I have always believed these verses referred to the Gospels in the Christian canon, but according to you they do not, so these verses are meaningless.

I'm beginning to feel very sorry for the Muslims.  No wonder what is said in the Quran about Jesus contradicts the true Christian Gospels and the Muslims accuse Christians of changing their Scriptures.

I knew the Quran seemed to copy the apocrypha, but I didn't know Muhammad did not have access to the Gospels in the Canon.  This explains a lot.

Why can't the Muslims see this?  Surely they have done the kind of research you have done.


David,

It is a good thing Muhammad did not have access to the gospels, otherwise he would have been accused of copying the gospels.

When Qur'aan refers to Injeel, it does not refer to the four gospels and the entire NT. The gospels are not the Injeel. NT is basically stories about Jesus. However, we can read and pick out the true Injeel part, no matter how little that content is.

Injeel is the part which was spoken out by Jesus. All else written and told by the four writers does not constitute Injeel.

Qur'aan does not talk much about Jesus. It just tells us that he was neither God nor a son of God.
Why should God have a son, anyway? What was the need of having a son? That is the thrust.

How do we know what belongs to Injeel, meaning what was said by Jesus? I will give you an example:


Quote:
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "


This sounds like a part of Injeel, directly uttered by Jesus. And look at what Mary said in John 20:18. She did not say she had seen her Lord and God. Also no other disciple said so.

Quote:
Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!"


Quote:
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


This definitely is not a part of Injeel. Also the doubting Thomas' alleged statement, which does not make any sense, goes against what Jesus declarede by repeating and confirming the Shema and said earlier. The gospels are full of such contradictions.

BMZ


Please stick to the topic of this thread.  How did so much of the apocrypha end up in the Quran as revelation?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BMZ
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 436



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
There are lots of verses in the Quran which say something like the following one:

He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa

I have always believed these verses referred to the Gospels in the Christian canon, but according to you they do not, so these verses are meaningless.

I'm beginning to feel very sorry for the Muslims.  No wonder what is said in the Quran about Jesus contradicts the true Christian Gospels and the Muslims accuse Christians of changing their Scriptures.

I knew the Quran seemed to copy the apocrypha, but I didn't know Muhammad did not have access to the Gospels in the Canon.  This explains a lot.

Why can't the Muslims see this?  Surely they have done the kind of research you have done.


David,

It is a good thing Muhammad did not have access to the gospels, otherwise he would have been accused of copying the gospels.

When Qur'aan refers to Injeel, it does not refer to the four gospels and the entire NT. The gospels are not the Injeel. NT is basically stories about Jesus. However, we can read and pick out the true Injeel part, no matter how little that content is.

Injeel is the part which was spoken out by Jesus. All else written and told by the four writers does not constitute Injeel.

Qur'aan does not talk much about Jesus. It just tells us that he was neither God nor a son of God.
Why should God have a son, anyway? What was the need of having a son? That is the thrust.

How do we know what belongs to Injeel, meaning what was said by Jesus? I will give you an example:


Quote:
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "


This sounds like a part of Injeel, directly uttered by Jesus. And look at what Mary said in John 20:18. She did not say she had seen her Lord and God. Also no other disciple said so.

Quote:
Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!"


Quote:
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


This definitely is not a part of Injeel. Also the doubting Thomas' alleged statement, which does not make any sense, goes against what Jesus declared by repeating and confirming the Shema and said earlier. The gospels are full of such contradictions.

BMZ


Please stick to the topic of this thread.  How did so much of the apocrypha end up in the Quran as revelation?


List and detail here all the so-called "apocrypha" which you say has ended up in Qur'aan! Itemise it.  Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
David
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 157



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:


List and detail here all the so-called "apocrypha" which you say has ended up in Qur'aan! Itemise it.  Laughing


You already have enough in this thread to respond to.  Get busy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BMZ
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 436



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
BMZ wrote:


List and detail here all the so-called "apocrypha" which you say has ended up in Qur'aan! Itemise it.  Laughing


You already have enough in this thread to respond to.  Get busy.


That is a cop out!  Laughing

You wrote and made this statement: "How did so much of the apocrypha end up in the Quran as revelation?"

The onus is now on you. Show us the apocrypha and show us how much?  Laughing

Do you know that most of the existing Christian Scripture was also picked up entirely from Apocrypha? It was all picked up from the debris known then as Apocrypha. The four gospels were cherry-picked from the many floating around in those days.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
AhmedBahgat
Golden Member
Golden Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 671


Location: Australia
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam
_________________
And say: Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is bound to perish.
[The Quran ; 17:81]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
BMZ
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 436



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam


Wa alaikum assalaam, bro

You are right.

Just like to remind them once in a while otherwise they tend to forget that Christianity, a runaway cult, is the odd one out.  Very Happy
Cheers, mate
BMZ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tvebak
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 280


Location: Around
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam


Wa alaikum assalaam, bro

You are right.

Just like to remind them once in a while otherwise they tend to forget that Christianity, a runaway cult, is the odd one out.  Very Happy
Cheers, mate
BMZ


Hi BMZ

David is right. Look at David and Fathoms discussion at the last couple of pages and you will see that Fathom has listed and detailed some examples of how the the "so-called "apocrypha"" have entered the quran. If you still have problems finding them I will copy-paste the comment for you.

Cheers.
_________________
Yes, we have a "soul"; but it's made of lots of tiny robots. - Daniel Dennet

It's mine "." ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HomoErectus
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 332


Location: Germany
Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam


Wa alaikum assalaam, bro

You are right.

Just like to remind them once in a while otherwise they tend to forget that Christianity, a runaway cult, is the odd one out.  Very Happy
Cheers, mate
BMZ





You guys present a good reason to DUMP ALL religions !

and no reason to keep any of 'em !

Cool
_________________
Upright is better than bent-over !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 157



Add Karma

rated by members
Add Comment
Show Comments


online/offline
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam


Wa alaikum assalaam, bro

You are right.

Just like to remind them once in a while otherwise they tend to forget that Christianity, a runaway cult, is the odd one out.  Very Happy
Cheers, mate
BMZ


Hi BMZ

David is right. Look at David and Fathoms discussion at the last couple of pages and you will see that Fathom has listed and detailed some examples of how the the "so-called "apocrypha"" have entered the quran. If you still have problems finding them I will copy-paste the comment for you.

Cheers.


You are correct.  BMZ has enough to work on until I can gather the rest.  This should be a separate topic.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT Forum Index -> The Qur'an All times are GMT + 11 Hours
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 8 of 9
 
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum