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Post new topic   Reply to topic    FREE FAITH, EXPRESSION AND THOUGHT Forum Index -> The Qur'an
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David
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

HomoErectus wrote:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam


Wa alaikum assalaam, bro

You are right.

Just like to remind them once in a while otherwise they tend to forget that Christianity, a runaway cult, is the odd one out.  Very Happy
Cheers, mate
BMZ





You guys present a good reason to DUMP ALL religions !

and no reason to keep any of 'em !

Cool


Your choice.
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David
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam


Wa alaikum assalaam, bro

You are right.

Just like to remind them once in a while otherwise they tend to forget that Christianity, a runaway cult, is the odd one out.  Very Happy
Cheers, mate
BMZ


Problem is the Quran proves that Allah is not the God of Christianity or Judaism, but you can continue to believe it if it will make you feel better.
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BMZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
HomoErectus wrote:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam


Wa alaikum assalaam, bro

You are right.

Just like to remind them once in a while otherwise they tend to forget that Christianity, a runaway cult, is the odd one out. Very Happy
Cheers, mate
BMZ





You guys present a good reason to DUMP ALL religions !

and no reason to keep any of 'em !

Cool


Your choice.


lol! Enjoyed that.

Not really. I look at religions in terms of God only. The Jews have got God right. Muslims have got God right too. It is just that Christianity has not got God right.

Cheers
BMZ
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Fathom
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
List and detail here all the so-called "apocrypha" which you say has ended up in Qur'aan! Itemise it.  Laughing


You might be able to pull off that Islamic act of intentional deception with David, since he was never a Muslim, but you don't have a hope in hell of ever pulling it off on me.

The evidences of the apocrypha have already been itemized in this thread, so don't even try to pretend they haven't as a means of avoiding the fact that they have. I know this trick of Muslims all too well;

"DENY DENY DENY!"

But you see, I understand you. You have no choice but to deny anything that opposes your understanding of the Quran and your Islamic teachings. You are, after all, a Muslim, and to agree with anything that doesn't conform to the teachings of the mullahs will guarantee you a place in hell, as far as Islam is concerned.

You are not allowed to believe the truth. You must deny every last bit of truth even if it makes you look like a fool. Come hell or high water, the truth is absolutely meaningless when it goes up against your Islamic beliefs. It doesn't matter how much evidence is provided; you have absolutely no choice but to deny it even exists.

Or else, you will go to hell.

So yes, I understand you. But you want to know something else? I also understand that in your heart you know that what I have said is true, but you can never admit to it out of your fear of going to hell.

And for that, I forgive you. After all, your fear is what controls you, and you have no choice in the matter whatsoever.

Peace.
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BMZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
BMZ wrote:
List and detail here all the so-called "apocrypha" which you say has ended up in Qur'aan! Itemise it. Laughing


You might be able to pull off that Islamic act of intentional deception with David, since he was never a Muslim, but you don't have a hope in hell of ever pulling it off on me.

The evidences of the apocrypha have already been itemized in this thread, so don't even try to pretend they haven't as a means of avoiding the fact that they have. I know this trick of Muslims all too well;

"DENY DENY DENY!"

But you see, I understand you. You have no choice but to deny anything that opposes your understanding of the Quran and your Islamic teachings. You are, after all, a Muslim, and to agree with anything that doesn't conform to the teachings of the mullahs will guarantee you a place in hell, as far as Islam is concerned.

You are not allowed to believe the truth. You must deny every last bit of truth even if it makes you look like a fool. Come hell or high water, the truth is absolutely meaningless when it goes up against your Islamic beliefs. It doesn't matter how much evidence is provided; you have absolutely no choice but to deny it even exists.

Or else, you will go to hell.

So yes, I understand you. But you want to know something else? I also understand that in your heart you know that what I have said is true, but you can never admit to it out of your fear of going to hell.

And for that, I forgive you. After all, your fear is what controls you, and you have no choice in the matter whatsoever.

Peace.


No worries and no fear.  Laughing I like and enjoy intellectual exchanges. I expected a better post from you, not a childish one that shows a sense of despair.

Don't give me the usual card.  Laughing I don't need a Mullah or a Christian to tell me if I am going to hell or heaven. I believe in my God, the Lord Almighty Allah and that gets me a place in heaven, for the Lord Almighty is enough for me.

Now, you are free to list the so-called "apocrypha", which according to David, fills Qur'aan. Go ahead and list/write down the apocrypha and we will discuss.

Do keep in mind that the Christian Scripture is itself a pick out of Apocrypha. Other unselected scriptures/gospels were left in the Apocrypha garbage.

Proceed and stick to Qur'aan and the NT.
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BMZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Dear Brother BMZ

Don't watse your time with such fools who can't comprehend that the God who sent Judaism and Christianity is the same God who sent Islam, i.e. there must be a lot of similarties between all three religions but they just too dumb and blind to see it

Salam


Wa alaikum assalaam, bro

You are right.

Just like to remind them once in a while otherwise they tend to forget that Christianity, a runaway cult, is the odd one out. Very Happy
Cheers, mate
BMZ


Problem is the Quran proves that Allah is not the God of Christianity or Judaism, but you can continue to believe it if it will make you feel better.


How so?  Smile What makes you conclude that? Would you like to substantiate your statement? Qur'aan mocks and rejects the triune god of Christians who believe in a trinity.
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Tvebak
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:


Proceed and stick to Qur'aan and the NT.


Hi BMZ

You must have missed something. Fathom is talking about a gospel which did not enter the NT.

Quote:
Apocrypha (from the Greek word ἀπόκρυφα, meaning "those having been hidden away"[1]) are texts of uncertain authenticity or writings where the authorship is questioned. In Judeo-Christian theology, the term apocrypha refers to any collection of scriptural texts that falls outside the canon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha

So Fathom is refering to what you understand as "Other unselected scriptures/gospels were left in the Apocrypha garbage. ". Those unselected scriptures is exactly what Fathom and David is refering to in this debate.

Quote:
Now, you are free to list the so-called "apocrypha", which according to David, fills Qur'aan. Go ahead and list/write down the apocrypha and we will discuss.


Again, BMZ, some have been listed, look at the last couple of pages of this thread. You might also have missed my earlier post, where I made an offer to do the copy-paste job for you, but anyways you really don't have any excuse, except if the buttons used to browse in this thread are missing on your website or is default, not to start commenting on Fathoms earlier comments.

And again the "apocrypha" mentioned is not the ones in the canonical bible, but exactly the oppossite. And again as Fathoms says:

Quote:
The evidences of the apocrypha have already been itemized in this thread, so don't even try to pretend they haven't as a means of avoiding the fact that they have.


Cheers.
_________________
Yes, we have a "soul"; but it's made of lots of tiny robots. - Daniel Dennet

It's mine "." ...


Last edited by Tvebak on Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tvebak
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: 19:36 Reply with quote

Hi BMZ I don't know why you keep ignoring this. You actually made a response to David after Fathom made the comment quoted below. Well here it is. So start debating. I'm also gonna post this comment by Fathom in the thread David started, where he linked to some articles of "dr" Campbells website. You can choose where you want to continue the debate.

Fathom wrote:
David wrote:
BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
Jesus speaking in the cradle is a weird story. I know where it comes from. The clay birds that fly is another weird one and I know where that one comes from too. Apparently these stories were flying around Mecca during the period of Muhammad and he thought they were true and used them as if they were.


Almost all the stories, in the New Testament, are weird anyway. How weirder can it get if he made birds out of clay and spoke when he was an infant?


The fact is it isn't true. These thoughts came out of the imagination of the writer. If they had been true, they would have been noted in the New Testament.

BMZ wrote:


He could perform miracles. Right? There was no prophecy that the child born to the virgin would perform miracles only when he was thirty.


The fact is the stories are not true. If Jesus had performed miracles as a child they would have been for a purpose. Performing miracles as a child served no purpose.

BMZ wrote:


If God could make Balaam's donkey speak, why could not God make Jesus speak as an infant to clear his mother's name and lecture people to let them know who he was?

BMZ


God can do anything, but Jesus did not perform miracles as a child. God made sure Jesus had a normal childhood. His miracles started when he began his ministry at the age of 30.

I see your problem though. The Quran includes these fanciful stories and you need some way to justify them.


Actually, Muhammad got his information regarding the clay birds from the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew which had been translated into early Arabic just a few years before Muhammad began his religion.

This particular gospel was written at least 300 years before the time of Muhammad, and then was translated into the Arabic Infancy Gospel just before Muhammad began his religion.

In the Arabic Infancy Gospel we read the following regarding Jesus from chapter 36:


Quote:
And He had made figures of birds and sparrows, which flew when He told them to fly, and stood still when He told them to stand, and ate and drank when He handed them food and drink. After the boys had gone away and told this to their parents, their fathers said to them: My sons, take care not to keep company with him again, for he is a wizard: flee from him, therefore, and avoid him, and do not play with him again after this.


The above came from the earlier Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew which says in in chapter 27 regarding Jesus:

Quote:
And it came to pass, after these things, that in the sight of all Jesus took clay froth the pools which He had made, and of it made twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when Jesus did this, and there were very many children with Him.

When, therefore, one of the Jews had seen Him doing this, he said to Joseph: Joseph, dost thou not see the child Jesus working on the Sabbath at what it is not lawful for him to do? for he has made twelve sparrows of clay. And when Joseph heard this, he reproved him, saying: Wherefore doest thou on the Sabbath such things as are not lawful for us to do? And when Jesus heard Joseph, He struck His hands together, and said to His sparrows: Fly! And at the voice of His command they began to fly.


Upon reading either of these early Christian works we can also see where Muhammad got much of his information. Since we know that Catholicism was the ruling Christian sect at the time of Muhammad, and all other Christian sects were persecuted by the Catholics, we also know that the biblical gospels were not available to just anyone but almost exclusively only to Christian clergy. The biblical gospels were written in Latin at the time of Muhammad, and stayed that way until the 15th century, with only Christian priests having the authority and knowledge to read from them.

As a result of this exclusion, many pseudo gospels were written and were spread around the land, including the two aforementioned gospels. The narrative of the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew is prefaced by a series of letters between the early Church father Jerome and the Bishops Comatius and Heliodorus. In these letters the Bishops request that Jerome translate a "Hebrew volume, written by the hand of the most blessed Evangelist Matthew," concerning the birth of the virgin mother and the infancy of Jesus.

If you noticed, I underlined the words "Hebrew volume" to illustrate a very important forthcoming point. Listed below are two Hadiths regarding Muhammad and his uncle:


Quote:
Narrated 'Aisha: Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: Sahih Al-Bukhari

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic


As you can see above, Waraqa bin Naufal used to read the Gospel in Arabic. How did he get a gospel in Arabic? That is answered in another Hadith:

Quote:
Narrated 'Aisha: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: Sahih Al-Bukhari

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.


The only gospels that would have been available to Waraqa would have been those which had not been included into the biblical canon, and none of the biblical gospels existed in Hebrew at the time of Muhammad.

The only known Hebrew Gospel from that time period is indeed the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, and as you can see, Waraqa was translating this Hebrew gospel into Arabic. This translated Gospel is most likely the Arabic Infancy Gospel, and Waraqa is the most likely author.

So here we have Muhammad's uncle writing from the Hebrew gospel and translating it into Arabic, and within the Quran we see the very evidence of this gospel.

This is not a matter of disputing the origins of the Quran but instead it is documented history from both Christian and Islamic sources, and we cannot change history.

Welcome to the truth.



_________________
Yes, we have a "soul"; but it's made of lots of tiny robots. - Daniel Dennet

It's mine "." ...
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