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The Illiteracy of Muhammad
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:17 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Hi, beloved Pazuzu and HomoErectus.  I'm on break, enjoying reading you guys.  Here's my 'addition':  keystone is that in 638AD, the Muslims overrun Jerusalem.  Now for them to be able to do that, they HAD to be literate.  So if they were, that's a standard, and Muhammed being the paragon among them (so yes a real live person with a real written book, even back then) -- he would be literate.  Most literate.

Moses was a genius in military affairs, leadership, writing, speaking (his protest of inability to the Lord in Exodus is an excuse which the Lord chastises).  Surely Muhammed would have to be a genius, too, by Islamic standards.

Seems to me the Qu'ran is saying that Muhammed didn't have SCRIPTURE, not saying he didn't have the ability to read and write.

Ability to read and write does not mean Divine Revelation.  Qu'ran claims to be from God.  That would be presumably higher than any ability to read and write;  by comparison, one would necessarily be illiterate.

Nice to see you guys!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have also read, but will have to look into that further, that the word commonly translated as ‘unlettered’ in the Qur’an (in reference to Muhammad) can also mean a Gentile…
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I have also read, but will have to look into that further, that the word commonly translated as ‘unlettered’ in the Qur’an (in reference to Muhammad) can also mean a Gentile…


Don'y believe such ignorant christian, the word Ummi does not mean those ho received no scripture, this is because the jews were described as ummmayoon as well in the Quran, hahahahaha

he is too confused christian to be considered
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
I have also read, but will have to look into that further, that the word commonly translated as ‘unlettered’ in the Qur’an (in reference to Muhammad) can also mean a Gentile…


Hi Pazuzu

I guess you are refering to these verses; 2.78, 3.75, 7.157, 7.158 and 62.02, and I'm gonna take 3.20 last.

As I stated in my earlier comment it can be argued that the quran is refering to that the prophet knew nothing of the previous scriptures, instead of refering to that he was illiterate. I'm not aware of the usage of the word "unlettered" in late antiquity, but I'm pretty sure to have seen "unlettered" used to describe "one who does not know the scriptures" elsewhere. Wether it's a 'metaphor' constructed in later time I don't know and wether it was used at all in the time of interest I don't know.
Furthermore there's a reference to the "previous scriptures" in one of these verses. I haven't looked up what should be said and wether it refers to "unlettered" as in "illiterate" or "unlettered" as in "don't know the scriptures".

I've used Yusuf Ali's translation, and changed "illiterates" to "unlettered" in the first verse, but he uses "unlettered" in the others. I just gonna give it some thoughts. But anyway we now have the relevant verses to look at  Wink

Quote:
2.78
Quote:
And there are among them unlettered, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.


Quote:
Waminhum ommiyyoona la yaAAlamoona alkitaba illa amaniyya wa-in hum illa yathunnoona


If we consider this verse, the description of the "unlettered" might be the one given just after the word, ie. " who know not the book".


Quote:
3.75
Quote:
Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.


Quote:
Wamin ahli alkitabi man in ta/manhu biqintarin yu-addihi ilayka waminhum man in ta/manhu bideenarin la yu-addihi ilayka illa ma dumta AAalayhi qa-iman thalika bi-annahum qaloo laysa AAalayna fee al-ommiyyeena sabeelun wayaqooloona AAala Allahi alkathiba wahum yaAAlamoona


Here there's the "people of the book" mentioned, and they are put in a field of dichotomy with the (I will use the same words, even though Yusus have another translation) "unlettered". Again this could be argued to be refering to the ones "without knowledge of the book" instead of "illiterate".


Quote:
7.157-158
Quote:
"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures), - in the law and the Gospel; - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him, - it is they who will prosper."
Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Apostle of God, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in God and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."


Quote:
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli ya/muruhum bialmaAAroofi wayanhahum AAani almunkari wayuhillu lahumu alttayyibati wayuharrimu AAalayhimu alkhaba-itha wayadaAAu AAanhum israhum waal-aghlala allatee kanat AAalayhim faallatheena amanoo bihi waAAazzaroohu wanasaroohu waittabaAAoo alnnoora allathee onzila maAAahu ola-ika humu almuflihoona
Qul ya ayyuha alnnasu innee rasoolu Allahi ilaykum jameeAAan allathee lahu mulku alssamawati waal-ardi la ilaha illa huwa yuhyee wayumeetu faaminoo biAllahi warasoolihi alnnabiyyi al-ommiyyi allathee yu/minu biAllahi wakalimatihi waittabiAAoohu laAAallakum tahtadoona


This is the verse as mentioned above which give reference to the previous scriptures. To make it short this verse again could be argued to mean "unlettered" in the sense of being "without knowledge of the book".


Quote:
62.02
Quote:
It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, - although they had been, before, in manifest error; -


Quote:
Huwa allathee baAAatha fee al-ommiyyeena rasoolan minhum yatloo AAalayhim ayatihi wayuzakkeehim wayuAAallimuhumu alkitaba waalhikmata wa-in kanoo min qablu lafee dalalin mubeenin


here the "apostle" is sent amongst "the unlettered" people. And he is to teach them in "the book". This verse makes perfectly sense if we use "unlettered" as "without knowledge of the book", cause the "apostle" is to instruct "the unlettered" in "the book".


Quote:
3.20
Quote:
So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted My whole self to God and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in God's sight are (all) His servants.


Quote:
Fa-in hajjooka faqul aslamtu wajhiya lillahi wamani ittabaAAani waqul lillatheena ootoo alkitaba waal-ommiyyeena aaslamtum fa-in aslamoo faqadi ihtadaw wa-in tawallaw fa-innama AAalayka albalaghu waAllahu baseerun bialAAibadi


Now this verse, in my opinion, suggest very much that the "unlettered" is refering to people who is not necissarelly "illiterate", but to people who does not know the previous scriptures.


To sum it up the verses could be argued to refering "unlettered" to a man or men "without knowledge of the book", instead of illiterate. Considering this argument then there's nothing in the quran which say that the prophet was "illiterate".

This is just some thoughts to try to give it some perspective. Feel free to comment in a civilized manner.

Cheers
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Last edited by Tvebak on Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep the confusion up pals, LOL

Unlearned in Arabic means Jahil

I hope you get it, Jahil boys
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Keep the confusion up pals, LOL

Unlearned in Arabic means Jahil

I hope you get it, Jahil boys


Have you even read what I wrote?

Cheers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Keep the confusion up pals, LOL

Unlearned in Arabic means Jahil

I hope you get it, Jahil boys


Have you even read what I wrote?

Cheers



I did, and it's confusing as always

can't you just do what I do?, just consider all of us dumb and put what you want to say as simple as possible

can you do that in points, 1, 2, 3, then your conclusion?

I really don't get what you want to say, however I do believe that it has to be something that serves your desires as you have always shown

now, let me put it straight to you in simple manner, you may only answer Yes/No from your prespective:

1) Did Mohammed know how to read?
2) Did Mohammed know how to wriite?
3) Does the word Ummi in Arabic mean illiterate?
4) Does the word Ummi in Arabic mean unlearned?
5) Does the word Ummi in Arabic mean those who received nop scriptures?
6) Does the world Jahil in Arabic mean Unlearned?


back to you pal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Tvebak wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Keep the confusion up pals, LOL

Unlearned in Arabic means Jahil

I hope you get it, Jahil boys


Have you even read what I wrote?

Cheers



I did, and it's confusing as always

can't you just do what I do?, just consider all of us dumb and put what you want to say as simple as possible

can you do that in points, 1, 2, 3, then your conclusion?

I really don't get what you want to say, however I do believe that it has to be something that serves your desires as you have always shown

now, let me put it straight to you in simple manner, you may only answer Yes/No from your prespective:

1) Did Mohammed know how to read?
2) Did Mohammed know how to wriite?
3) Does the word Ummi in Arabic mean illiterate?
4) Does the word Ummi in Arabic mean unlearned?
5) Does the word Ummi in Arabic mean those who received nop scriptures?
6) Does the world Jahil in Arabic mean Unlearned?


back to you pal


I'm sorry that it's confusing to you. My english is not topnotch either, so that does not help.

I'm not gonna answer your questions. I have stated several times that my knowledge of arabic is little as I have only just started to learn it, but I will try follow you up on your 1,2,3 steps.

1. The quran is argued to have many "metaphors". Regardless of lingiustic discussion of what "ummi" means it could be a metaphor for people "without knowledge of the book". I will use the translation "unlettered".

2. The verses telling about a "unlettered" messenger or "unlettered" peoples makes perfect sense if we consider "unlettered" to mean "without knowledge of the book", specially 3.20. 2.78 might even itself explain what is meant by "unlettered": "unlettered, who know not the Book".

3. If we consider unlettered to be "without knowledge of the book" 62.02 says that a messenger have come amongst the "unlettered"  to instruct in the book. According to this the "unlettered" is people who have no knowledge of the book, and is to be instructed in it. The verse makes more sense in this way, than if we consider ummi strictly to be unable to read or write.

Concl: the question is wether the quran is saying that the messenger is illiterate or not. In my opinion it's the case is not that clear. It can be argued that the word "ummi" could refer to people without knowledge of the book. Considering all the verses "unlettered" makes more sense, in my opinion, if it means "without knowledge of the book".

Cheers
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
We already been through this Ahmed. "Tatlu" means recite not read or write.

"You did not recite a book before and you did not write *it* with your right".

It does not say you did not write with your Right Hand.
It does not say you can not write.
It only states that you did not recite a book or write 'it' with your hand.

With very small modifications to the text, it could have meant that Muhammad never wrote before but that is not what the text is stating. Because people knew he can write. He was a merchant.

In fact, if you read this text a little more precisely then how you already read it, then this text will actually prove that muhammad knew how to write.


Mister Baal

in your barbie word mister baal

Tilawat Al Quran means, reading al quran

The verse also denies that Mohammed wrote any book before the Quran revelation

please dismiss yourself

The closest translation to "Tatlu" means "Recite". It implies someone reading a text and doing something with it, praying with it or most likely saying it out loud.

Had the koran *not* used this verb, your argument would have been correct. But the koran used this verb, so your SOL.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
We already been through this Ahmed. "Tatlu" means recite not read or write.

"You did not recite a book before and you did not write *it* with your right".

It does not say you did not write with your Right Hand.
It does not say you can not write.
It only states that you did not recite a book or write 'it' with your hand.

With very small modifications to the text, it could have meant that Muhammad never wrote before but that is not what the text is stating. Because people knew he can write. He was a merchant.

In fact, if you read this text a little more precisely then how you already read it, then this text will actually prove that muhammad knew how to write.


Mister Baal

in your barbie word mister baal

Tilawat Al Quran means, reading al quran

The verse also denies that Mohammed wrote any book before the Quran revelation

please dismiss yourself

The closest translation to "Tatlu" means "Recite". It implies someone reading a text and doing something with it, praying with it or most likely saying it out loud.

Had the koran *not* used this verb, your argument would have been correct. But the koran used this verb, so your SOL.



I BLOODY E

READING FROM THE BLOODY MIND

what a waste of time man


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