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Are these Qu'ran contradictions? I'm not sure they all are.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:54 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

I listed a contradiction and nobody answered it. It's the contradiction of Allah having limited, 7th century knowledge.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Are these Qu'ran contradictions? I'm not sure they all Reply with quote

brainout wrote:
But I defer to you guys.  Below is Part II of V of a Youtube video on Qu'ran contradictions (not from investigate islam).  Video is very thoughtful, and if you click on the "About this Video" to see all the intro, you'll get a listing, which the video then plays out, one by one.  

In its #11 listing of contradictions, Sura 56:7 appears to me to be talking about the sons of Noah, from which come the three basic races, not the Last Judgement.  I made a comment to that effect below the video, hope to get a response.  I also posted a comment that I made his video a topic here.

Click here for the Youtube video.


Hi Brainout

I can't see the videos either. Is it the URL or?

Cheers
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hey kafirs


List your alleged contradictions in here and let the Muslims slam dunk ya all


We have been over this one, but if you really are interested we can do it again.

Tvebak wrote:
Here's another one:

In verse 20.10, 27.7 and 28.29 where we are told about Moses encounter with g_d. He does'nt seem to remember what exactly Moses said to his folk/family/households.
Really g_d seems to be unsure how the whole story of the meeting between Moses and him went about (20.9-, 27.7-12 and 28.2Cool


20.10

Yusuf Ali:
Behold, he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."

Shakir:
When he saw fire, he said to his family: Stop, for surely I see a fire, haply I may bring to you therefrom a live coal or find a guidance at the fire.

Pickthall:
When he saw a fire and said unto his folk: Lo! Wait! I see a fire afar off. Peradventure I may bring you a brand therefrom or may find guidance at the fire.


إِذْ رَأَى نَارًا فَقَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى النَّارِ هُدًى

Ith raa naran faqala li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha biqabasin aw ajidu AAala alnnari hudan

27.7

Yusuf Ali:
Behold! Moses said to his family: "I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you from there some information, or I will bring you a burning brand to light our fuel, that ye may warm yourselves.

Shakir:
When Musa said to his family: Surely I see fire; I will bring to you from it some news, or I will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves.

Pickthall:
(Remember) when Moses said unto his household: Lo! I spy afar off a fire; I will bring you tidings thence, or bring to you a borrowed flame that ye may warm yourselves.:


إِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِأَهْلِهِ إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا سَآتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ آتِيكُم بِشِهَابٍ قَبَسٍ لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ

Ith qala moosa li-ahlihi innee anastu naran saateekum minha bikhabarin aw ateekum bishihabin qabasin laAAallakum tastaloona

28.29

Yusuf Ali:
Now when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he perceived a fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said to his family: "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope to bring you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that ye may warm yourselves."

Shakir:
So when Musa had fulfilled the term, and he journeyed with his family, he perceived on this side of the mountain a fire. He said to his family: Wait, I have seen a fire, maybe I will bring to you from it some news or a brand of fire, so that you may warm yourselves.

Pickthall:
Then, when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his housefolk, he saw in the distance a fire and said unto his housefolk: Bide ye (here). Lo! I see in the distance a fire; peradventure I shall bring you tidings thence, or a brand from the fire that ye may warm yourselves.


فَلَمَّا قَضَى مُوسَىالْأَجَلَ وَسَارَ بِأَهْلِهِ آنَسَ مِن جَانِبِ الطُّورِ نَارًا قَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ جَذْوَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ

Falamma qada moosa al-ajala wasara bi-ahlihi anasa min janibi alttoori naran qala li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha bikhabarin aw jathwatin mina alnnari laAAallakum tastaloona

Cheers

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hey kafirs


List your alleged contradictions in here and let the Muslims slam dunk ya all


We have been over this one, but if you really are interested we can do it again.

Tvebak wrote:
Here's another one:

In verse 20.10, 27.7 and 28.29 where we are told about Moses encounter with g_d. He does'nt seem to remember what exactly Moses said to his folk/family/households.
Really g_d seems to be unsure how the whole story of the meeting between Moses and him went about (20.9-, 27.7-12 and 28.2Cool


20.10

Yusuf Ali:
Behold, he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."

Shakir:
When he saw fire, he said to his family: Stop, for surely I see a fire, haply I may bring to you therefrom a live coal or find a guidance at the fire.

Pickthall:
When he saw a fire and said unto his folk: Lo! Wait! I see a fire afar off. Peradventure I may bring you a brand therefrom or may find guidance at the fire.


إِذْ رَأَى نَارًا فَقَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى النَّارِ هُدًى

Ith raa naran faqala li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha biqabasin aw ajidu AAala alnnari hudan

27.7

Yusuf Ali:
Behold! Moses said to his family: "I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you from there some information, or I will bring you a burning brand to light our fuel, that ye may warm yourselves.

Shakir:
When Musa said to his family: Surely I see fire; I will bring to you from it some news, or I will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves.

Pickthall:
(Remember) when Moses said unto his household: Lo! I spy afar off a fire; I will bring you tidings thence, or bring to you a borrowed flame that ye may warm yourselves.:


إِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِأَهْلِهِ إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا سَآتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ آتِيكُم بِشِهَابٍ قَبَسٍ لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ

Ith qala moosa li-ahlihi innee anastu naran saateekum minha bikhabarin aw ateekum bishihabin qabasin laAAallakum tastaloona

28.29

Yusuf Ali:
Now when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he perceived a fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said to his family: "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope to bring you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that ye may warm yourselves."

Shakir:
So when Musa had fulfilled the term, and he journeyed with his family, he perceived on this side of the mountain a fire. He said to his family: Wait, I have seen a fire, maybe I will bring to you from it some news or a brand of fire, so that you may warm yourselves.

Pickthall:
Then, when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his housefolk, he saw in the distance a fire and said unto his housefolk: Bide ye (here). Lo! I see in the distance a fire; peradventure I shall bring you tidings thence, or a brand from the fire that ye may warm yourselves.


فَلَمَّا قَضَى مُوسَىالْأَجَلَ وَسَارَ بِأَهْلِهِ آنَسَ مِن جَانِبِ الطُّورِ نَارًا قَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ جَذْوَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ

Falamma qada moosa al-ajala wasara bi-ahlihi anasa min janibi alttoori naran qala li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha bikhabarin aw jathwatin mina alnnari laAAallakum tastaloona

Cheers



and I replied to it that it is so stupid that it is not worth my precious time, your above crap is dismissed,

next one if you have any
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hey kafirs


List your alleged contradictions in here and let the Muslims slam dunk ya all


AhmedBahgat wrote:
and I replied to it that it is so stupid that it is not worth my precious time, your above crap is dismissed,

next one if you have any


Well that's not a "slam dunk ya all". I can tell you what you answered last time:

Quote:
why don't you are not considering that Moses said BOTH?

you have no bloody point, yet you cowardice to cover up your unmerited disbelief is to blame the God the if He was not sure to what Moses said

such load of non sense you brought in


You know very well that we have three different quotes, for the exact same occurence. They are quite similar, but is still different, you know that. So what you should consider is that Moses said all three sentences, that would be your best explanation. And it's a quite vague explanation. But I guess that it has to be the explanation for you as a believer in the quran as the word of g-d. And considering you have no better explanation it seems that you resorted, as you can see above, to attack my person. Any person can read my comment and read your 'refutation' (or rater dismiss-tag) and make up their own mind.

I have others, but you haven't brought a "slam dunk" for this one, as you promised, so I see no reason to give any further examples for now.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, I did slam dunked you before, well, it seems you like to be slam dunked all the times, sure, will copy my slam dunk later on today after i find it on FFI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could not find my comment, TV

can you please provide a link to that thread on FFI?

if you can't then I will try to write my refute again based on my time
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tvebak

Let’s have one more go at your silly argument

Tvebak wrote:
In verse 20.10, 27.7 and 28.29 where we are told about Moses encounter with g_d. He does'nt seem to remember what exactly Moses said to his folk/family/households.


What a silly argument that is man, well, it seems you are missing an important point, the Quran  explains itself, i.e. the Quran  may be talking about the same subject in more than one location, at the end of the day non of the information should conflict with another, a quick example when the Quran told us that Firon wanted to crucify the magicians. Then in another location it told us that he wanted to crucify them on the stumps of palm trees, no conflict, rather elaboration

The three verses you are talking about are a very good example to epxose your confusion, this is because there is no further info in the verses, rather the exact same was said by Moses all along:

Tvebak wrote:
Really g_d seems to be unsure how the whole story of the meeting between Moses and him went about (20.9-, 27.7-12 and 28.28-)


This is a premature conclusion, let’s analyse the verses:

Tvebak wrote:
20.10
Yusuf Ali:
Behold, he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."
Shakir:
When he saw fire, he said to his family: Stop, for surely I see a fire, haply I may bring to you therefrom a live coal or find a guidance at the fire.
Pickthall:
When he saw a fire and said unto his folk: Lo! Wait! I see a fire afar off. Peradventure I may bring you a brand therefrom or may find guidance at the fire.

إِذْ رَأَى نَارًا فَقَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى النَّارِ هُدًى

Ith raa naran faqala li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha biqabasin aw ajidu AAala alnnari hudan


I will use Shakir translation for now but AFTER fixing it:

When he saw fire, he said to his family: Stop, for surely I see a fire, haply I may bring to you therefrom a small file or find a guidance at the fire.

[The Quran ; 20:10]

إِذْ رَأَى نَارًا فَقَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى النَّارِ هُدًى (10)


Ie. Moses said to his people regarding the fire which he saw at a distance the following:

1) Either he will bring a small fire from it.
2) Or he will find guidance at its location

Tvebak wrote:
27.7
Yusuf Ali:
Behold! Moses said to his family: "I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you from there some information, or I will bring you a burning brand to light our fuel, that ye may warm yourselves.
Shakir:
When Musa said to his family: Surely I see fire; I will bring to you from it some news, or I will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves.
Pickthall:
(Remember) when Moses said unto his household: Lo! I spy afar off a fire; I will bring you tidings thence, or bring to you a borrowed flame that ye may warm yourselves.:

إِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِأَهْلِهِ إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا سَآتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ آتِيكُم بِشِهَابٍ قَبَسٍ لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ

Ith qala moosa li-ahlihi innee anastu naran saateekum minha bikhabarin aw ateekum bishihabin qabasin laAAallakum tastaloona



When Musa said to his family: Surely I see fire; I will bring to you from it some news, or I will bring to you therefrom a small fire so that you may warm yourselves.

[The Quran ; 27:7]

إِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِأَهْلِهِ إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا سَآتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ آتِيكُم بِشِهَابٍ قَبَسٍ لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ (7)


In the above verse, we read that Moses said to his people regarding the fire he saw at a distance the following:

1) Either he will find at it some news and will bring it in to them
2) or he will bring a small fire from it

Obviously the above that is said by Moses is exactly the same as what he said in 20:10,

In 20:10
1) Either he will bring a small fire from it
2) Or he will find guidance at its location

Now:

-> He will bring a small fire from it (20:10) = he will bring a small fire from it (27:7)

->  He will find guidance at its location  = he will find at it some news and will bring it in to them (27:7)  

There is no doubt that the guidance Moses  would have found at the fire will be brought to them, ie.  when he brings that guidance to them, it has to be news for them, got it, mister?

Tvebak wrote:
28.29
Yusuf Ali:
Now when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he perceived a fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said to his family: "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope to bring you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that ye may warm yourselves."
Shakir:
So when Musa had fulfilled the term, and he journeyed with his family, he perceived on this side of the mountain a fire. He said to his family: Wait, I have seen a fire, maybe I will bring to you from it some news or a brand of fire, so that you may warm yourselves.
Pickthall:
Then, when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his housefolk, he saw in the distance a fire and said unto his housefolk: Bide ye (here). Lo! I see in the distance a fire; peradventure I shall bring you tidings thence, or a brand from the fire that ye may warm yourselves.

فَلَمَّا قَضَى مُوسَىالْأَجَلَ وَسَارَ بِأَهْلِهِ آنَسَ مِن جَانِبِ الطُّورِ نَارًا قَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ جَذْوَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ

Falamma qada moosa al-ajala wasara bi-ahlihi anasa min janibi alttoori naran qala li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha bikhabarin aw jathwatin mina alnnari laAAallakum tastaloona

Cheers



So when Musa had fulfilled the term, and he journeyed with his family, he perceived on this side of the mountain a fire. He said to his family: Wait, I have seen a fire, maybe I will bring to you from it some news or a small fire, so that you may warm yourselves.

[The Quran ; 28:29]

فَلَمَّا قَضَى مُوسَىالْأَجَلَ وَسَارَ بِأَهْلِهِ آنَسَ مِن جَانِبِ الطُّورِ نَارًا قَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ جَذْوَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ (29)


In the above verse, we read that Moses said to his people regarding the fire which he saw at a distance, the following:

1) Either he will find at it some news and will bring it in to them
2) Or he will bring a small fire from it

A) well, that is exactly what he said in 27:7, Ie:

What Moses said in 28:29 = what Moses said in 27:7

B) And because what Moses said in 27:7 =  what he said in 20:10, as proven above

Therefore from A & B:

C) What Moses said in  28:29 = what Moses said in 20: 10

I.E. from A & B & C:

E) what Moses said in 20:10 = what Moses said = 27: 7= what Moses said in 28:29


I.E.  from E:

Tvebak is the one who is a clear cut confused

Cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello Tvebak

Let’s have one more go at your silly argument


Hello Ahmed

Alright I see that you have made your response, great. So I take I don't need to 'copy-paste' your quite similar response from the other thread. Also considering that you have taken the time to present it here in your quran-blue colors.

Quote:
Tvebak wrote:
In verse 20.10, 27.7 and 28.29 where we are told about Moses encounter with g_d. He does'nt seem to remember what exactly Moses said to his folk/family/households.


What a silly argument that is man, well, it seems you are missing an important point, the Quran  explains itself, i.e. the Quran  may be talking about the same subject in more than one location, at the end of the day non of the information should conflict with another, a quick example when the Quran told us that Firon wanted to crucify the magicians. Then in another location it told us that he wanted to crucify them on the stumps of palm trees, no conflict, rather elaboration


You see Ahmed, the bolded part [I removed your bolded part] was exactly what I stated in my earlier comment, ie. that you have to make this work somehow, cause "non of the information should conflict with another". Why should no information conflict, because it is supposed to be the word of g-d, very simple. But as the example I presented show there's information that conflict. Let's have yet another look at it. It's really not that big an issue, it's quite simple.

Quote:
The three verses you are talking about are a very good example to epxose your confusion, this is because there is no further info in the verses, rather the exact same was said by Moses all along:


No you are wrong here Ahmed. It is not the exact same there's being quoted. It is almost the exact same, and this is an important element, but all three quotes differ from eachother. I have already stated this and you know it. It's not from the english translation we are talking, it is from the arabic. I also stated this the last time and that was how you came to the result that Moses must have said both (which is where you should have said all three, cause all three quotes differ from eachother). And to emphazize it again and I might do this again, I'm talking from the arabic, not the english, cause it's the arabic which is interesting, right?

Quote:
Tvebak wrote:
Really g_d seems to be unsure how the whole story of the meeting between Moses and him went about (20.9 -, 27.7-12 and 28.28 -)


This is a premature conclusion, let’s analyse the verses:


Yes let us do that, but this case is just about 20.10, 27.7 and 28.29.

Quote:
Tvebak wrote:
20.10
Yusuf Ali:
Behold, he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."
Shakir:
When he saw fire, he said to his family: Stop, for surely I see a fire, haply I may bring to you therefrom a live coal or find a guidance at the fire.
Pickthall:
When he saw a fire and said unto his folk: Lo! Wait! I see a fire afar off. Peradventure I may bring you a brand therefrom or may find guidance at the fire.

إِذْ رَأَى نَارًا فَقَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى النَّارِ هُدًى

Ith raa naran faqala li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha biqabasin aw ajidu AAala alnnari hudan


I will use Shakir translation for now but AFTER fixing it:

When he saw fire, he said to his family: Stop, for surely I see a fire, haply I may bring to you therefrom a small file or find a guidance at the fire.

[The Quran ; 20:10]

إِذْ رَأَى نَارًا فَقَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى النَّارِ هُدًى (10)


Ie. Moses said to his people regarding the fire which he saw at a distance the following:

1) Either he will bring a small fire from it.
2) Or he will find guidance at its location


I fancy your work on helping Shakir to clean up his translation. Otherwise, but irrelevant from the topic, I see overall that Shakir is the most 'honest' (literally) translator of the different translators. This is said of course from my low level of knowledge of arabic.

But to the point (I'll use the transliteration cause I think that more people will 'understand' that than if I use the arabic script):

What is being said in 20.10 is

Quote:
li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha biqabasin aw ajidu AAala alnnari hudan


We will make the comparison in the end.

Quote:
Tvebak wrote:
27.7
Yusuf Ali:
Behold! Moses said to his family: "I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you from there some information, or I will bring you a burning brand to light our fuel, that ye may warm yourselves.
Shakir:
When Musa said to his family: Surely I see fire; I will bring to you from it some news, or I will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves.
Pickthall:
(Remember) when Moses said unto his household: Lo! I spy afar off a fire; I will bring you tidings thence, or bring to you a borrowed flame that ye may warm yourselves.:

إِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِأَهْلِهِ إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا سَآتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ آتِيكُم بِشِهَابٍ قَبَسٍ لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ

Ith qala moosa li-ahlihi innee anastu naran saateekum minha bikhabarin aw ateekum bishihabin qabasin laAAallakum tastaloona



When Musa said to his family: Surely I see fire; I will bring to you from it some news, or I will bring to you therefrom a small fire so that you may warm yourselves.

[The Quran ; 27:7]

إِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِأَهْلِهِ إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا سَآتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ آتِيكُم بِشِهَابٍ قَبَسٍ لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ (7)


In the above verse, we read that Moses said to his people regarding the fire he saw at a distance the following:

1) Either he will find at it some news and will bring it in to them
2) or he will bring a small fire from it


Again what is being said in 27.7 is:

Quote:
li-ahlihi innee anastu naran saateekum minha bikhabarin aw ateekum bishihabin qabasin laAAallakum tastaloona



Quote:
Obviously the above that is said by Moses is exactly the same as what he said in 20:10,


I agree that it seems to be almost the exact same, but it differs. We can even see this in your translation.

Quote:
In 20:10
1) Either he will bring a small fire from it
2) Or he will find guidance at its location

Now:

-> He will bring a small fire from it (20:10) = he will bring a small fire from it (27:7)

->  He will find guidance at its location  = he will find at it some news and will bring it in to them (27:7)  

There is no doubt that the guidance Moses  would have found at the fire will be brought to them, ie.  when he brings that guidance to them, it has to be news for them, got it, mister?


Yes you make a good argument that they are very similar. I agree.


Quote:
Tvebak wrote:
28.29
Yusuf Ali:
Now when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he perceived a fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said to his family: "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope to bring you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that ye may warm yourselves."
Shakir:
So when Musa had fulfilled the term, and he journeyed with his family, he perceived on this side of the mountain a fire. He said to his family: Wait, I have seen a fire, maybe I will bring to you from it some news or a brand of fire, so that you may warm yourselves.
Pickthall:
Then, when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his housefolk, he saw in the distance a fire and said unto his housefolk: Bide ye (here). Lo! I see in the distance a fire; peradventure I shall bring you tidings thence, or a brand from the fire that ye may warm yourselves.

فَلَمَّا قَضَى مُوسَىالْأَجَلَ وَسَارَ بِأَهْلِهِ آنَسَ مِن جَانِبِ الطُّورِ نَارًا قَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ جَذْوَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ

Falamma qada moosa al-ajala wasara bi-ahlihi anasa min janibi alttoori naran qala li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha bikhabarin aw jathwatin mina alnnari laAAallakum tastaloona

Cheers



So when Musa had fulfilled the term, and he journeyed with his family, he perceived on this side of the mountain a fire. He said to his family: Wait, I have seen a fire, maybe I will bring to you from it some news or a small fire, so that you may warm yourselves.

[The Quran ; 28:29]

فَلَمَّا قَضَى مُوسَىالْأَجَلَ وَسَارَ بِأَهْلِهِ آنَسَ مِن جَانِبِ الطُّورِ نَارًا قَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ جَذْوَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ (29)


In the above verse, we read that Moses said to his people regarding the fire which he saw at a distance, the following:

1) Either he will find at it some news and will bring it in to them
2) Or he will bring a small fire from it


Again what is being said in 28.29 is:

Quote:
li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha bikhabarin aw jathwatin mina alnnari laAAallakum tastaloona


Quote:
A) well, that is exactly what he said in 27:7, Ie:

What Moses said in 28:29 = what Moses said in 27:7

B) And because what Moses said in 27:7 =  what he said in 20:10, as proven above

Therefore from A & B:

C) What Moses said in  28:29 = what Moses said in 20: 10

I.E. from A & B & C:

E) what Moses said in 20:10 = what Moses said = 27: 7= what Moses said in 28:29


Yes if you look at the my earlier message again I agree that the three verses is quite similar, and this is, as said, quite important. Because they are so very similar, it would be a bad excuse to say that Moses should have said all three sentences. And this would have to be your argument, since the three quotes differ from eachother. It is very simple. You don't even have to have any knowledge of arabic to see this. You only need to be able to distinguish the different letters in the alphabet, regardless wether you are looking at the latin transcription or the arabic script. I know I'm being a tough judge in this case, but we are talking about the supposedly all-knowing g-d. And he/she/it should not be making such a simple mistake.

So lets make the comparison:
Quote:

Evidence A li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha biqabasin aw ajidu AAala alnnari hudan
Evidence B li-ahlihi innee anastu naran saateekum minha bikhabarin aw ateekum bishihabin qabasin laAAallakum tastaloona
Evidence C li-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekum minha bikhabarin aw jathwatin mina alnnari laAAallakum tastaloona


Quote:
I.E.  from E:

Tvebak is the one who is a clear cut confused

Cheers


I refer to what I said earlier:

Quote:
You know very well that we have three different quotes, for the exact same occurence. They are quite similar, but is still different, you know that. So what you should consider is that Moses said all three sentences, that would be your best explanation. And it's a quite vague explanation. But I guess that it has to be the explanation for you as a believer in the quran as the word of g-d.


And if you would like it I can try to think of some ways to make it work. We could consider that Moses wife was a bit deaf, or Moses mumbled, or that he maybe was a 'makro'stutter. But then again the quotes are all supposed to be the reaction on Moses seing the fire, so somehow none of these cases would work either.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Baal wrote:
The story is BS. You are in the middle of the desert. You see some light, you have no clue what it is, you go alone?! and you send the leader? and you send the leader alone?

Also although both verses mean the same, what moses said in each verse is different. He meant the same though. You can blame it on the fact that he was not speaking arabic and the koran was just trying to translate what moses said.

But now we have an issue Ahmed, which of the Two verses is the better translation for what Moses said?


mister baal

Allah is telling us the story USING HIS OWN words, then He told us the story again, using His own different words but same context then  He told us about it for the third time using His own different words and still same context, This is the miracle of the Quran, pal

Allah is not reading to us a log book of what is excatly been said

don't act desperate as Tv

cheers


Look Ahmed first of all I'm not acting desperate, but that's your typical personal attack you are pulling to try to boost your argument, and it's in my opinion a low act. I'm simply just pointing to a place in the Quran where I see there's conflicting information. It's a very simple case, as stated in my earlier comment.

Your earlier argument was that Moses should have said the different things, but now you are arguing that the verses is not actually showing what Moses said, but what "god" would like to say that Moses said, not being precise. It's just "gods" "various depiction" on what Moses said. None of them is necissarily "correct" quote cause they are just "god" "using his own words to tell a story".

LOL. I actually like this explanation better. There's a more sophisticated fantasy at work now  Wink . But basicly you are manipulating the words of the quran now. The quran very clearly said that this was what Moses said, using "qala" قَالَ , right? It's right there in the verses. So now you are suggesting that we are not to trust the quran when it gives a quote. And why not? Because otherwise the quran will show us conflicting informations. And we cannot have that, cause it supposed to be the "word of "god"".

Cheers


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