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Muhammad and the Angel Gabriel
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David
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:23 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Baal wrote:


Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.


I have a lot of "why's."

Why didn't this being identify himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel right from the start?

Why didn't "Gabriel" tell Muhammad not to be afraid or say "fear not" as he does when he encounters other humans?

Why did it take Waraqa to first suggest to Muhammad that it was Gabriel?

Why after believing that it was Gabriel was he so afraid after the second visit?

Why did this being ask Muhammad to read when he would have known that Muhammad could not read?

Why did "Gabriel" press Muhammad down 3 times until he could barely breathe in order to get him to read?  This is too aggressive under the circumstance.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Baal wrote:


Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.


I have a lot of "why's."

Why didn't this being identify himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel right from the start?

Why didn't "Gabriel" tell Muhammad not to be afraid or say "fear not" as he does when he encounters other humans?

Why did it take Waraqa to first suggest to Muhammad that it was Gabriel?

Why after believing that it was Gabriel was he so afraid after the second visit?

Unanswerable.

Quote:

Why did this being ask Muhammad to read when he would have known that Muhammad could not read?

Why did "Gabriel" press Muhammad down 3 times until he could barely breathe in order to get him to read?  This is too aggressive under the circumstance.

This is how the miracle works. You do not have to like it. Muhammad does not have to like it. But this is how it works.

Of course, this behavior never happened with any other previous messenger or prophet. That spirit that appeared to Muhammad is acting more like the spirit of a human goon. then of an angel or an enlightened being.

Either the spirit is a dead human goon, which is possible if you believe in an afterlife, or this spirit & the miracle are the invention of a human goon. Specially when that human fails to place the events in the proper context. It is like a criminal getting caught in the cross-examining.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:
David wrote:
Baal wrote:


Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.


I have a lot of "why's."

Why didn't this being identify himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel right from the start?

Why didn't "Gabriel" tell Muhammad not to be afraid or say "fear not" as he does when he encounters other humans?

Why did it take Waraqa to first suggest to Muhammad that it was Gabriel?

Why after believing that it was Gabriel was he so afraid after the second visit?

Unanswerable.

Quote:

Why did this being ask Muhammad to read when he would have known that Muhammad could not read?

Why did "Gabriel" press Muhammad down 3 times until he could barely breathe in order to get him to read?  This is too aggressive under the circumstance.

This is how the miracle works. You do not have to like it. Muhammad does not have to like it. But this is how it works.

Of course, this behavior never happened with any other previous messenger or prophet. That spirit that appeared to Muhammad is acting more like the spirit of a human goon. then of an angel or an enlightened being.

Either the spirit is a dead human goon, which is possible if you believe in an afterlife, or this spirit & the miracle are the invention of a human goon. Specially when that human fails to place the events in the proper context. It is like a criminal getting caught in the cross-examining.


Have you ever heard that Waraqa did not support Muhammad contrary to what a Muslim will tell you?  I have a report to that effect if you want to read it.

Have you ever heard that Muhammad suffered from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?  People who have this disorder see people who are not there and carry on conversations with people who are not there.

I think there is cause to believe that Muhammad had Temporal Lobe Epilepsy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Humm...

This is very reminiscent of the "man born from a "divinely" impregnated "virgin".

I never could buy into that idea, you know?

I mean, for a woman to become impregnated, sperm must penetrate the egg inside her F tubes that extend from inside to the outside of her uterus. No other way to go with that!!! Either by petri dish fertilization followed by implantation, penile ejaculation or turkey baster delivery...

Of course, "faith" can turn nightmares into realities. Once you get there, you have "facts". Those "facts" become truth...

Right?...Rrriiigghhttt!!!

Aesopus' was a far better and based on reality concept...animals analogous to humans...Brilliant!!!

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Baal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Baal wrote:
David wrote:
Baal wrote:


Muslims are not in the business of critiquing. Never in history had there been such large volumes of work so devoid of self-criticism.

This little contradiction is a personal observation. Even the most ardent islamocritics did not pick on it and I emailed it to a few of them. They tried to play a devil advocate but could not offer any rebuttal to it.


I have a lot of "why's."

Why didn't this being identify himself to Muhammad as the Angel Gabriel right from the start?

Why didn't "Gabriel" tell Muhammad not to be afraid or say "fear not" as he does when he encounters other humans?

Why did it take Waraqa to first suggest to Muhammad that it was Gabriel?

Why after believing that it was Gabriel was he so afraid after the second visit?

Unanswerable.

Quote:

Why did this being ask Muhammad to read when he would have known that Muhammad could not read?

Why did "Gabriel" press Muhammad down 3 times until he could barely breathe in order to get him to read?  This is too aggressive under the circumstance.

This is how the miracle works. You do not have to like it. Muhammad does not have to like it. But this is how it works.

Of course, this behavior never happened with any other previous messenger or prophet. That spirit that appeared to Muhammad is acting more like the spirit of a human goon. then of an angel or an enlightened being.

Either the spirit is a dead human goon, which is possible if you believe in an afterlife, or this spirit & the miracle are the invention of a human goon. Specially when that human fails to place the events in the proper context. It is like a criminal getting caught in the cross-examining.


Have you ever heard that Waraqa did not support Muhammad contrary to what a Muslim will tell you?  I have a report to that effect if you want to read it.

Have you ever heard that Muhammad suffered from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?  People who have this disorder see people who are not there and carry on conversations with people who are not there.

I think there is cause to believe that Muhammad had Temporal Lobe Epilepsy.

I know that Waraqa died very soon after Khadija declared her husband a prophet. It is a simple matter to claim a dead person said things he did not.

I would be interested in reading material about the priest Waraqa bin Nawfal if you can provide the material.

I read Ali Sina's book and some dutch editorial that both support this theory. It is very possible if not probable. Muhammad had few seizure visions and then built his glory upon them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrInquisitive wrote:


Humm...

This is very reminiscent of the "man born from a "divinely" impregnated "virgin".

I never could buy into that idea, you know?

I mean, for a woman to become impregnated, sperm must penetrate the egg inside her F tubes that extend from inside to the outside of her uterus. No other way to go with that!!! Either by petri dish fertilization followed by implantation, penile ejaculation or turkey baster delivery...

Of course, "faith" can turn nightmares into realities. Once you get there, you have "facts". Those "facts" become truth...

Right?...Rrriiigghhttt!!!

Aesopus' was a far better and based on reality concept...animals analogous to humans...Brilliant!!!

What difference does it make if someone is born from a virgin or someone turned water to wine. Nothing. The only thing that matters is the message.

Hello MrInquisitive. The lack of self-criticism is generally endemic to religions which are based on some fundamental beliefs.


A Christian has to fundamentally believe that god exists with no proof. Which is a big deal.
That Christ is his son with no proof. Which is not a big deal.
That Christ did some miracles. Which is not a big deal.

Ultimately, they have to believe in his message and apply it. Which is the biggest deal.

Now I do not care if god exists or not. I do not care if they believe Jesus was his son or he was the Lord of the Rings.

I do not care if people believe in miracles. One miracle or Ten, all the same.

The only thing that concerns me is the message. And when you study the message of jesus, you can start applying criticism, you can start weighting it and ultimately, if you do not like something, you can always claim human interference. Believing the message does not have to be as fundamental as say, believing god exists and is raising people from the dead.


In Islam, the message is protected by the miracle. Worse, The message is protected by the message itself. This is the preserved word of Allah and You will be killed if you apostate or criticize.

What concerns me is the absolute and utter lack of self-criticism in ALL aspects of present days islam. Worst of all, it concerns me that they are affraid of criticizing the message.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrInquisitive wrote:


Humm...

This is very reminiscent of the "man born from a "divinely" impregnated "virgin".

I never could buy into that idea, you know?

I mean, for a woman to become impregnated, sperm must penetrate the egg inside her F tubes that extend from inside to the outside of her uterus. No other way to go with that!!! Either by petri dish fertilization followed by implantation, penile ejaculation or turkey baster delivery...

Of course, "faith" can turn nightmares into realities. Once you get there, you have "facts". Those "facts" become truth...

Right?...Rrriiigghhttt!!!

Aesopus' was a far better and based on reality concept...animals analogous to humans...Brilliant!!!


It's just incredible that God would find a way for a conception to happen without the need of a man, isn't it?  I mean, who does God think he is to leave man out of what is man's "work."  It kind of puts man in his place.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:


I would be interested in reading material about the priest Waraqa bin Nawfal if you can provide the material.

I read Ali Sina's book and some dutch editorial that both support this theory. It is very possible if not probable. Muhammad had few seizure visions and then built his glory upon them.


I don't have a direct link.  I found it on Answering-islam.

Start with their index to the Quran:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/index.html

Click on the "W" at the top of the screen.

Click on WARAQA B. NAUFAL to the left of the screen.

Scroll down to:

"Waraqa ibn Nawfal Was No Supporter of Muhammad's Prophethood"

Click on it and up will come the report.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting link there. It contains this about him:

“Ibn Ishaq relates (as it appears in ibn Hisham's recension):

Waraqa attached himself to Christianity and studied its scriptures until he had thoroughly mastered them."
(Ibn Ishaq, Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, 1967, p. 99)”

Why would someone thoroughly versed in Christianity (which posits that the son of god came as a saviour to all mankind, thereby negating forever the need for any further revelations) believe that god had sent a new prophet?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the explanations why he thinks Waraqa was opposed to muhammad. Reading it in Arabic makes more sense if we were to consider that Waraqa was opposed to Muhammad not with him.

Islamically this is big. Waraqa's brothers were muhammad's uncles.

One was Abu Lahab. One of only Two names mentioned in the koran. He was thrown in hell and he was drinking bitter 'zakkum' and his wife was carrying palm leaves to burn him with.

Another Two were the heads of the Ammawid dynasty which started 50yrs after Muhammad died, and the head of the Abbasid.

And now Waraqa, the First male witness to Muhammad. The one who confirmed the 'sign of prophethood'.

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