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Muhammad and the Angel Gabriel
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Baal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:
Interesting link there. It contains this about him:

“Ibn Ishaq relates (as it appears in ibn Hisham's recension):

Waraqa attached himself to Christianity and studied its scriptures until he had thoroughly mastered them."
(Ibn Ishaq, Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, 1967, p. 99)”

Why would someone thoroughly versed in Christianity (which posits that the son of god came as a saviour to all mankind, thereby negating forever the need for any further revelations) believe that god had sent a new prophet?

At the time, the Arabs needed their own religion. The jews had theirs and seemed prospering from it. In the East Kusrau had his, in the West Ceasar had his, even the yemenite seemed stronger and united to the South under Maslamah the Hanafi prophet. They all seemed united and educated and the Arabs seemed divided each following his own deity.

Many Arab intellectuals saw a need to a common deity. It is possible, in my mind at least that Waraqa was either a renegade Christian priest or an Arab nationalist, who was supporting the idea for an Arab religion.

I realized now after reading what was written about him, that he wanted nothing to do with islam.
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MrInquisitive
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:29 am    Post subject: "miracles and the message" Reply with quote

My point, Dear Baal,

when comparing that: ..."The only thing that concerns me is the message. And when you study the message of jesus, you can start applying criticism, you can start weighting it and ultimately, if you do not like something, you can always claim human interference. Believing the message does not have to be as fundamental as say, believing god exists and is raising people from the dead."...

Is that the message has no "leg to stand on" in the first place by the very fact that the entire "message" is based on an already ilogical and impossible set of circumstances...
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Baal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: "miracles and the message" Reply with quote

MrInquisitive wrote:
My point, Dear Baal,

when comparing that: ..."The only thing that concerns me is the message. And when you study the message of jesus, you can start applying criticism, you can start weighting it and ultimately, if you do not like something, you can always claim human interference. Believing the message does not have to be as fundamental as say, believing god exists and is raising people from the dead."...

Is that the message has no "leg to stand on" in the first place by the very fact that the entire "message" is based on an already ilogical and impossible set of circumstances...

If the message is to teach the golden rule. Then I can objectively measure that message.

If the message is to give the other cheek then I can measure that.

The stories and fables, I can measure them. I can critique them.

I do not care that Jesus cured a blind man as a proof that not throwing the first stone at the adulteress is good.

There was a message that we are not to consider ourselves better then others. I can measure and critique that.

The fact of the matter is, once I remove the hocus pocus from Christianity, which is what you just did in One Swooping argument, I am faced with a message that, once put under a critiquing light, the message can stand on its own.

I can live with people following that message. I can hire them. I can marry into them. Some might not even think I will be saved. Who cares.

With islam, First, I am not even allowed to critique the message. A muslim can not critique the message and does not have the option to pick and choose from the message. It is ALL the unchanged word of Allah. Every last letter.

Second, what message? The whole book is about Kuffars and Unification and the rights of men over women and the rights of muslims over non-muslims.

Third, once islam is implemented, my rights and sensibilities will be trampled and ignored. Because the message of islam, unification, is just about that, submission. The Submission of the believers and then the Submission of the non-believers.

So we can sit and argue about hocus pocus all we want. Ultimately it is the message and the actions of the believers that I care about. And believe me I will go just as nuts on Christians if they dare to, for example, re-implement the OT covenant. Or claim creationism like some sects are trying.

But I am not interested in hocus pocus Mr.I.

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