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Misinformation & Misreporting in the Gospels.
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Fathom
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:15 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

David wrote:
Fathom,

I agree with you that we are having a great conversation.

We agree on a lot of issues.  The pre-existence of the king Messiah for one.

You might be preaching to the choir in some respects.

We disagree on some important issues too.

You said in one of your posts that when a Christian discusses Christianity with you they end up in either of two ways.

1.  They end up hating you; or

2.  They are no longer Christians.  (something like that)

I can guarantee you that I do not and will not hate you and I guarantee you that I will remain an orthodox Christian when our conversation is completed.

Smile


Well that is refreshing. I have had no luck whatsoever discussing this with Christians, especially over at Faith Freedom International where they do not even address my points, but instead attack me personally constantly. You, on the other hand, are presenting an argument with scholarship, and are also demonstrating the "11th Commandment" of "Have love for one another. As I have loved you, you also should love one another."

Most Christians who feel an affront to their core beliefs totally forget the teachings of Christ, so it is refreshing that you keep those teachings- especially the 11th Commandment- dear to your heart.

After all, all I ever wanted was a decent discussion.
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Servatus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: May I join you two Reply with quote

David wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Servatus wrote:
Or is this a limited conversation?


The topic is not private. It is open to all. It is just that David did not want my opinions.  BMZ


More accurately, David wants to discuss what Fathom presents with Fathom.


Very well, pardon the interruption. I'll just pop the top on another Bud, light up a Camel Light and watch this interesting discussion unfold.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: May I join you two Reply with quote

Servatus wrote:
David wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Servatus wrote:
Or is this a limited conversation?


The topic is not private. It is open to all. It is just that David did not want my opinions.  BMZ


More accurately, David wants to discuss what Fathom presents with Fathom.


Very well, pardon the interruption. I'll just pop the top on another Bud, light up a Camel Light and watch this interesting discussion unfold.


Servatus,

Can we have a little conversation here, without disturbing the gentlemen? I just lit up a Marlboro Light.

According to the New Testament, it is Jesus who raises the dead from their gaves. Is he also, according to the New Testament, responsible for sending them to their graves?  Wink

BMZ

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All_Brains
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent intelligent and civilised discussions are happening here, keep up the good work guys! thumleft
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
Excellent intelligent and civilised discussions are happening here, keep up the good work guys! thumleft


Please pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that it continues.

Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
All_Brains wrote:
Excellent intelligent and civilised discussions are happening here, keep up the good work guys! thumleft


Please pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that it continues.

Wink


Samen to that!

Cheers

BMZ

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David
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom,

You did not need to restate your argument again in your last two posts.  I understand what you are saying.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject: Starting from the beginning. Reply with quote

Fathom, you made your position clear in a post a while back and I am now going to reply to that one for the first time.

Fathom wrote:

In my opinion, although Christians deny it, Jesus was indeed a polytheist.  


Wrong.

Fathom wrote:


He defined the entities of the Father and the Holy Spirit as being seperate entities, and both being gods.


Jesus did no such thing.

A simply definition of the Trinity is:

"With the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Keep in mind there is only one Being and only one.

The Word of God is the Word of the one Being; the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the one Being.

Your position contradicts what the Old and New Testaments say about God, the one Being.  For example:

Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus 8:10)

"For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. (Exodus 9:14)

"To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other. (Deuteronomy 4:39)

"Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! (Deuteronomy 6:4)

`See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)

"There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty. (Deuteronomy 33:26)

"There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides Thee, Nor is there any rock like our God. (1 Samuel 2:2)

"For this reason Thou art great, O Lord God; for there is none like Thee, and there is no God besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Samuel 7:22)

And he said, "O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like Thee in heaven above or on earth beneath, who art keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart, (1 Kings 8:23)

so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else. (1 Kings 8:60)

He trusted in the Lord, the God of Israel; so that after him there was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among those who were before him. (2 Kings 18:5)

"O Lord, there is none like Thee, neither is there any God besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20)

And he said, "O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no god like Thee in heaven or on earth, keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart;" (2 Chronicles 6:14)

Many, O Lord my God, are the wonders which Thou hast done, And Thy thoughts toward us; There is none to compare with Thee; If I would declare and speak of them, They would be too numerous to count. (Psalms 40:5)

There is no one like Thee among the gods, O Lord; Nor are there any works like Thine. (Psalms 86:Cool

"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; And there is no savior besides Me." (Isaiah 43:10-11)

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: `I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.'" (Isaiah 44:6)

`Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'" (Isaiah 44:Cool

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other," (Isaiah 45:5-6)

Thus says the Lord, "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: `Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.'" (Isaiah 45:14)

For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), "I am the Lord, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:1Cool

"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:21-22)

"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, (Isaiah 46:9)

There is none like Thee, O Lord; Thou art great, and great is Thy name in might. (Jeremiah 10:6)

Yet I have been the Lord your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me. (Hosea 13:4)

"Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, And that I am the Lord your God And there is no other; And My people will never be put to shame. (Joel 2:27)

"Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers? (Malachi 2:10)

Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)

"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? (John 5:44)

"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." (John 8:41)

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. (1 Corinthians 8:4)

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, (Hebrews 6:13)

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (James 2:19)

Fathom wrote:


With claims of his being the son of God, this means that he is if the same essence as God, and means that he is a god also.  


Yes, Jesus is of the same essence as YHWH, but no, it doesn't mean that the Son of God is A god also.  You are thinking 3 separate BEINGS.  You must think one Being, in three persons.  It is the Messiah who is God incarnate in His divine nature.  Jesus of Nazareth got his human nature from his mother, Mary.  This is called the Hypostatic Union.  Please see this article:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm


Fathom wrote:


In an argument with the Jews beginning in John 10.30, Jesus replied in John 10.33 to their accusation of him referring to himself as a god and son in John 10.32. Then, in 10.34 Jesus replied with a quote from Psalm 82.6:

Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, "I said, You are gods?"

Psa 82:6  I have said, You are gods; and all of you sons of the Most High.

Jesus went on to argue that since the Jewish holy books illustrated that other people from the past had been referred to as "gods" and "sons of the Most High" by God Himself, then why would the Jews have a problem with Jesus referring to himself in this manner also.


Notice you said "other people from the past had been referred to as "gods" (which is correct).    This does not mean these people were actually additional gods beside YHWH.

The Israelites were monotheists so it is inconceivable that Christ would claim to be a god. That would be polytheism and would contradict the scriptures I noted above.  A mere man cannot give eternal life to anyone. Only God can give eternal life. And if Christ were claiming to be a little god as in Psalms 82:6 the Jews would not have tried to stone Him. They knew exactly what He was claiming: full equality with the Father.

The men in Psalm 82:6 are unjust judges "gods" and God pronounces calamity against them.  Jesus' argument is that this Psalm proves that the word "god" can be legitimately used to refer to others than God Himself.  His reasoning is that if there are others whom God can address as "god" or "sons of the Most High," why then should the Jews object to Jesus' statement that he is "the Son of God"?

In the heat of their opposition to what they hear Jesus to be saying, they are partly right (he does make himself equal with God), partly wrong (this fact does not establish a competing God), and profoundly mistaken (they have not grasped the drift of their own Scriptures to see how Jesus fulfils them.  The context of explosive violence, does not provide Jesus with the leisure for cool theological dialogue.  So Jesus administers a short, sharp shock, a scriptural reason why they should not take umbrage just because he calls himself the Son of God.  That reason does not establish the nature of his unique sonship; that is presupposed, rather, by his self-reference as the one whom the Father set apart…and sent into the world.  But Jesus' response stalls the crowd long enough for Jesus to appeal once more to the testimony of his words and works  (verses 37-3Cool.

If you think that Jesus was a polytheist and if you think the Old and New Testaments teach that there are more than one Goc,  you are mistaken.
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Servatus
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: May I join you two Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Servatus wrote:
David wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Servatus wrote:
Or is this a limited conversation?


The topic is not private. It is open to all. It is just that David did not want my opinions.  BMZ


More accurately, David wants to discuss what Fathom presents with Fathom.


Very well, pardon the interruption. I'll just pop the top on another Bud, light up a Camel Light and watch this interesting discussion unfold.


Servatus,

Can we have a little conversation here, without disturbing the gentlemen? I just lit up a Marlboro Light.

According to the New Testament, it is Jesus who raises the dead from their gaves. Is he also, according to the New Testament, responsible for sending them to their graves?  Wink

BMZ


Cite the appropriate scriptures, please.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: May I join you two Reply with quote

Servatus wrote:
 Cite the appropriate scriptures, please.


Actually, I was referring to David's post of Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:11 am and bold emphasis in his quote, is mine.  

Quote:
The Jews knew their scriptures.  Upon hearing what Jesus claimed in John 10:25-29, they would have been reminded of their scriptures:

Deuteronomy 32:39

39 "See now that I myself am He!
     There is no god besides me.
     I put to death and I bring to life,
     I have wounded and I will heal,
     and no one can deliver out of my hand.


1 Samuel 2:6
6 "The LORD brings death and makes alive;
     he brings down to the grave and raises up.


According to the New Testament, it is Jesus who raises the dead them their gaves.


Therefore, if Jesus is supposed to be the LORD, which he is definitely NOT, it would mean Jesus also wounds people, puts people to death and sends them to graves and then raises them up.

What do you think, Servatus? I believe you have taken the nick from Servetus, who was burnt up alive by Christ's followers.

BMZ



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