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Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran
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David
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:30 am    Post subject: Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran  Reply with quote

Surah 4:157:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Yusuf Ali

and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed;  Arberry

and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.  Sarwar

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) Hilali/Khan

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.  H/K/Saheeh

and for their saying, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah. ' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but to them, he (the crucified) had been given the look (of Prophet Jesus). Those who differ concerning him (Prophet Jesus) are surely in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of supposition, and (it is) a certainty they did not kill him. Qaribullah

and their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so; and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him:  Asad

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.  Pickthal

And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.  Khalifa

Was someone else crucified in Jesus' place?  Did Allah put Jesus' face on someone else?  Some translations say yes and some don't.  Did they murder someone else by mistake?

Who are we to believe?

The only thing these translations get right is that the Jews didn't kill Jesus or crucify him.
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BMZ
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran Reply with quote

David wrote:
 Was someone else crucified in Jesus' place? †Did Allah put Jesus' face on someone else? †Some translations say yes and some don't. †Did they murder someone else by mistake?

Who are we to believe?

The only thing these translations get right is that the Jews didn't kill Jesus or crucify him.


My title has been plagiarised.  Very Happy Just kidding.

I am rushing out for a meeting and will address this in the afternoon.

The answer to your first question is a No.

You should try to believe Qur'aan. I will translate it for you and you can consult Ahmed and All_Brains on my translation. The translators are not Matthews, Marks , Lukes and Johns.

Please stay tuned.

BMZ
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Tvebak
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
David wrote:
†Was someone else crucified in Jesus' place? †Did Allah put Jesus' face on someone else? †Some translations say yes and some don't. †Did they murder someone else by mistake?

Who are we to believe?

The only thing these translations get right is that the Jews didn't kill Jesus or crucify him.


My title has been plagiarised. †Very Happy Just kidding.

I am rushing out for a meeting and will address this in the afternoon.

The answer to your first question is a No.

You should try to believe Qur'aan. I will translate it for you and you can consult Ahmed and All_Brains on my translation. The translators are not Matthews, Marks , Lukes and Johns.

Please stay tuned.

BMZ


That is one long meeting, eh. Is it soon athernoon where live BMZ?  Wink

Cheers
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David
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:


That is one long meeting, eh. Is it soon athernoon where live BMZ?  Wink

Cheers


You took the words out of my mouth.  My guess is BMZ does not have answers and he used a "meeting" as an excuse to get out of trying to come up with some.
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Baal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Shubbiha Lahum" is a sentence that Muslims luv to use. It means "it was made to appear to them".

So they did not kill him or crucify jesus, but it 'shubbiha lahum'. This verse is a result of the fundamental difference between Chrsitianity and Islam. Self-sacrifice is the basis of Christianity. Your time and your comfort to start. To be a leader, you have to sacrifice yourself for those in your charge, you have to be the root of the tree that carries the rest.

In islam, the leader is on top of the tree and everyone else is just lifting you up.

It is like the mythical princes of "1001 Arabian Nights". To be a leader it is almost like starting your trip to an islamic heaven. You sacrifice whose in your charge, their time and comfort to start. You are on top of the tree and everyone else is lifting you.

It is inconceivable for muslims to accept the concept of self-sacrifice for a leader. They prefer to continue to sacrifice animals. They prefer to continue worshipping their leaders.

And they are perfectly fine with the idea that when Muhammad had to run away from Mecca, he placed his 10yr old cousin Ali in his bed to die in his place and then ran off with Abu Bakr in the cover of the night.
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HomoErectus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baal wrote:


And they are perfectly fine with the idea that when Muhammad had to run away from Mecca, he placed his 10yr old cousin Ali in his bed to die in his place and then ran off with Abu Bakr in the cover of the night.


Dear Baal

This is a very interesting detail I havent heard of before...

Where is the story, is it a hadith ?
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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye! Iíve not heard that before, what a shocking detail!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was one of the Hijra (immigration) stories taught to us in school. The story put muhammad in a very positive light as to how allah saved him and how Ali was a hero at 10yr old for not being affraid to die.

I guess another story I will have to dig out and translate. I am still digging for the story of the 100+ yr old poetess that he ordered quartered and had her family enslaved.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no Muslim has been able to answer my questions.

My guess is the reason no Muslim can answer my questions is because Surah 4:157 is incoherent, which means that Allah didn't know what happened either so he created a verse to cover up his confusion.
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AhmedBahgat
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wa Lakin Shubbiha Lahum

the word Lahum must be referring to THEM (the ones who tried to kill him)

i.e. it was made to appear to THEM

if it means that someone was made to look like him, then the word must be Lahu

after clearing this for you, the context of made to appear to them can allo both understansdings:

1) That Jesus was put on the cross and the whole thing was an illusion to them, i.e. they thought that they were really torturing and killing him while Allah made Jesus not to feel any pain

2) That someone was made to look like  and this made it to appear to THEM that they killed him

what version is right?, it is impossible to know:

qhat we can confirm with certainty as exctracted from the Quran, that Allah saved Jesus and made the whole thing as an illusion to them


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