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Misinformation and Misreporting in the Quran
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All_Brains
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:14 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hey A_B

do you have anything to refute my claim that Allah admitted that He is a killer?

or do you think what I claimed will cause sorcery in the so called Muslim world?

cheers


No, sure I agree!

You have demonstrated beyond doubt through a Quranic verse, that Allah is a killer!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All_Brains wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hey A_B

do you have anything to refute my claim that Allah admitted that He is a killer?

or do you think what I claimed will cause sorcery in the so called Muslim world?

cheers


No, sure I agree!

You have demonstrated beyond doubt through a Quranic verse, that Allah is a killer!


Cheer mate, time to have a nap
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look you wishful thinking kid, extreme penalty does not mean put to death

you are dismissed


Which part of "extreme penalty means death by crucifixion" did you not understand? Not only did I give you the evidence of Jesus being executed by Pontius Pilate from the works of one Roman historian "Tacitus," but I also gave you the definition of "extreme penalty" according to another ancient Roman historian who also lived at that time.

I have provided you with two ancient Roman sources completely un-related to Christianity.

And you have no argument whatsoever.


you can shove the tom and jerry crap you brough in up your bumI only look at religious scriptures as you bloody doing by using the Quran to prove your crap and delusional non sense that it does not deny that jesus is killed by another human


YOU have been educated.

The Quran tells you that the Jews did not kill nor crucify Jesus, and that is the absolute truth.

And Roman historical records totally unrelated to the religion of Christianity confirm what the Quran says; it wasn't the Jews, it was the Romans.

You've been slam dunked by your own Quran.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Fathom wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look you wishful thinking kid, extreme penalty does not mean put to death

you are dismissed


Which part of "extreme penalty means death by crucifixion" did you not understand? Not only did I give you the evidence of Jesus being executed by Pontius Pilate from the works of one Roman historian "Tacitus," but I also gave you the definition of "extreme penalty" according to another ancient Roman historian who also lived at that time.

I have provided you with two ancient Roman sources completely un-related to Christianity.

And you have no argument whatsoever.


you can shove the tom and jerry crap you brough in up your bumI only look at religious scriptures as you bloody doing by using the Quran to prove your crap and delusional non sense that it does not deny that jesus is killed by another human


YOU have been educated.

The Quran tells you that the Jews did not kill nor crucify Jesus, and that is the absolute truth.

And Roman historical records totally unrelated to the religion of Christianity confirm what the Quran says; it wasn't the Jews, it was the Romans.

You've been slam dunked by your own Quran.


dismissed
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
  And Roman historical records totally unrelated to the religion of Christianity confirm what the Quran says; it wasn't the Jews, it was the Romans.

You've been slam dunked by your own Quran.[/b]


Where are those Roman historical records? There is nothing recorded in the history about that crucifiction. Zish, nada, nothing. A few lines from Tacitus do not mean the history. You need historians.

It is all scriptural gossip.
 Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
  And Roman historical records totally unrelated to the religion of Christianity confirm what the Quran says; it wasn't the Jews, it was the Romans.

You've been slam dunked by your own Quran.[/b]


Where are those Roman historical records? There is nothing recorded in the history about that crucifiction. Zish, nada, nothing. A few lines from Tacitus do not mean the history. You need historians.

It is all scriptural gossip.
 Laughing


Tacitus has been called the greatest historian of ancient Rome, an individual generally acknowledged among scholars for his moral “integrity and essential goodness.”

Extreme penalty means death as has been pointed out.

Considering the fact that many Jews were put to death by the Romans it is quite significant that the report of Jesus' death is recorded at all.  In all probability, the reason Jesus' death was recorded is because the early Christians were proclaiming that this particular Jew rose from the dead.

There are also other historical reports of the life and death of Jesus.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
BMZ wrote:


There is something interesting in the Apocalypse of Peter, where Jesus was sitting on a tree laughing and telling Peter to look at the substitute which they were putting to shame. In other words, Jesus was standing there and laughing at all those people. I know that the Apocalypse of Peter was not canonised because it demolishes the alleged reports in the four canonised gospels.  


The Apocalypse of Peter was not canonized because it was written in the third century and was not written by Peter. The criteria for acceptance was:

1. Apostolic Origin - attributed to and/or based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their closest companions).

2. Universal Acceptance - acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the Mediterranean world (by the end of the fourth century).

3. Liturgical Use - read publicly along with the OT when early Christians gathered for the Lord's Supper (their weekly worship services).

4. Consistent Message - containing theological ideas compatible with other accepted Christian writings (incl. the divinity and humanity of Jesus)

The Apocalypse of Peter is docetic, a form of Gnosticism.  
Docetism from Wikipedia:

In Christianity, Docetism (from the Greek δοκέω [dokeō], "to seem") is the belief that Jesus' physical body was an illusion, as was his crucifixion; that is, Jesus only seemed to have a physical body and to physically die, but in reality he was incorporeal, a pure spirit, and hence could not physically die. Docetism has historically been regarded as heretical by most Christian theologians

This belief is most commonly attributed to the Gnostics, who believed that matter was evil, and hence that God would not take on a material body. This statement is rooted in the idea that a divine spark is imprisoned within the material body, and that the material body is in itself an obstacle, deliberately created by an evil lesser god (the demiurge) to prevent man from seeing his divine origin. Humanity is, in essence, asleep.
....
Islam teaches that Jesus was a fully human prophet, but also asserts that Jesus's crucifixion was an illusion.   I believe that the Docetics who traveled to Saudi Arabic had an influence on Muhammad and shows up in the Quran.

Since Christians and Muslims believe that Jesus was human and had a physical body, you can see that you will get no help from the Apocalypse of Peter.


Hello David

Actually if we where to consider the qur'anic text as a product of it's time, as it is, it's most likely that the author(s) of the qur'an got there idea of the cricifixion being a hoax from exactly the Apocalypse of Peter, or perhaps the The Second Treatise of the Greath Seth. It's not necessarily that the specific texts was the direct source. It could have been conveyed in homilies, other apocryphal texts we havent got any more or perhaps orally.

Quote:
The Apocalypse of Peter

When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."


Quote:
The Second Treatise of the Greath Seth

For Adonaios knows me because of hope. And I was in the mouths of lions. And the plan which they devised about me to release their Error and their senselessness - I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I <suffered> according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance.


One of these or perhaps might very well be the inspiration for the relevant part in the qur'an, and as said it could be either direct or indirect. No matter what, it shows some figments of the backwards history of the qur'an.

And furthermore they are interesting concerning this debate on the story in the qur'an. I think that the the qur'an itself is inconclussive on the matter wether Jesus was killed or not, but of course is very clear that the Jews did not kill him. But it's only if we consider the qur'an on it's own merit that it's inconclusive. If we consider these sources then it seems likely that the authours tried to convey the idea that Jesus was not killed at all.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tvebak wrote:
David wrote:
BMZ wrote:


There is something interesting in the Apocalypse of Peter, where Jesus was sitting on a tree laughing and telling Peter to look at the substitute which they were putting to shame. In other words, Jesus was standing there and laughing at all those people. I know that the Apocalypse of Peter was not canonised because it demolishes the alleged reports in the four canonised gospels.  


The Apocalypse of Peter was not canonized because it was written in the third century and was not written by Peter. The criteria for acceptance was:

1. Apostolic Origin - attributed to and/or based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their closest companions).

2. Universal Acceptance - acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the Mediterranean world (by the end of the fourth century).

3. Liturgical Use - read publicly along with the OT when early Christians gathered for the Lord's Supper (their weekly worship services).

4. Consistent Message - containing theological ideas compatible with other accepted Christian writings (incl. the divinity and humanity of Jesus)

The Apocalypse of Peter is docetic, a form of Gnosticism.  
Docetism from Wikipedia:

In Christianity, Docetism (from the Greek δοκέω [dokeō], "to seem") is the belief that Jesus' physical body was an illusion, as was his crucifixion; that is, Jesus only seemed to have a physical body and to physically die, but in reality he was incorporeal, a pure spirit, and hence could not physically die. Docetism has historically been regarded as heretical by most Christian theologians

This belief is most commonly attributed to the Gnostics, who believed that matter was evil, and hence that God would not take on a material body. This statement is rooted in the idea that a divine spark is imprisoned within the material body, and that the material body is in itself an obstacle, deliberately created by an evil lesser god (the demiurge) to prevent man from seeing his divine origin. Humanity is, in essence, asleep.
....
Islam teaches that Jesus was a fully human prophet, but also asserts that Jesus's crucifixion was an illusion.   I believe that the Docetics who traveled to Saudi Arabic had an influence on Muhammad and shows up in the Quran.

Since Christians and Muslims believe that Jesus was human and had a physical body, you can see that you will get no help from the Apocalypse of Peter.


Hello David

Actually if we where to consider the qur'anic text as a product of it's time, as it is, it's most likely that the author(s) of the qur'an got there idea of the cricifixion being a hoax from exactly the Apocalypse of Peter, or perhaps the The Second Treatise of the Greath Seth. It's not necessarily that the specific texts was the direct source. It could have been conveyed in homilies, other apocryphal texts we havent got any more or perhaps orally.

Quote:
The Apocalypse of Peter

When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."


Quote:
The Second Treatise of the Greath Seth

For Adonaios knows me because of hope. And I was in the mouths of lions. And the plan which they devised about me to release their Error and their senselessness - I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I <suffered> according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance.


One of these or perhaps might very well be the inspiration for the relevant part in the qur'an, and as said it could be either direct or indirect. No matter what, it shows some figments of the backwards history of the qur'an.

And furthermore they are interesting concerning this debate on the story in the qur'an. I think that the the qur'an itself is inconclussive on the matter wether Jesus was killed or not, but of course is very clear that the Jews did not kill him. But it's only if we consider the qur'an on it's own merit that it's inconclusive. If we consider these sources then it seems likely that the authours tried to convey the idea that Jesus was not killed at all.

Cheers


I believe we have already established that Muhammad did not have access to the real Gospel of Jesus.  That is why we see the incorporation of thoughts from these later stories.  

We have further support from the Quran itself.  There are many verses which say that the Quran confirms the past revelations.  If Muhammad got his ideas from these later stories he would naturally believe he was telling the truth.

In other words, Muhammad did not know what the Gospel of Jesus really said.

This is very sad.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
  And Roman historical records totally unrelated to the religion of Christianity confirm what the Quran says; it wasn't the Jews, it was the Romans.

You've been slam dunked by your own Quran.[/b]


Where are those Roman historical records? There is nothing recorded in the history about that crucifiction. Zish, nada, nothing. A few lines from Tacitus do not mean the history. You need historians.

It is all scriptural gossip.
 Laughing


I suppose I will need to once again tell you that Cornelius Tacitus was an elite Roman Historian? It's all been explained to you already, and you have not provided any type of argument with any type of evidential support.

Therefore, you have no means whatsoever to refute my point. You have nothing except your own opinion.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fathom wrote:
BMZ wrote:
Fathom wrote:
  And Roman historical records totally unrelated to the religion of Christianity confirm what the Quran says; it wasn't the Jews, it was the Romans.

You've been slam dunked by your own Quran.[/b]


Where are those Roman historical records? There is nothing recorded in the history about that crucifiction. Zish, nada, nothing. A few lines from Tacitus do not mean the history. You need historians.

It is all scriptural gossip.
 Laughing


I suppose I will need to once again tell you that Cornelius Tacitus was an elite Roman Historian? It's all been explained to you already, and you have not provided any type of argument with any type of evidential support.

Therefore, you have no means whatsoever to refute my point. You have nothing except your own opinion.


It is worse than that.  No matter how much evidence we present to the contrary, Muslims MUST believe that Jesus did not die on the cross.

If they for one moment believe that He did, then they will have to consider that the Christians are right and they cannot afford to do that.

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